Sharpening, what grit after 6000?

[Frederick Skelly]

Hi guys. If I was going to buy some stones that are even finer than 6000, what grit would you suggest? I was reading old posts on sharpening and someone suggested going as far 16,000 grit. Is it ok to jump that far in one step (from 6000 directly to 16,000)or should I use another grit in between?

And while I have you, let me ask another, though I hope it doesnt hack anyone off or start a sharpening holy war - At my skill level (hand plane newbie) will I even notice enough improvement in that smoothing plane's edge to make buying finer stones (beyond 6000) worth the money at this point? (Two fine grit shaptons costs as much as some Veritas items Ive been eyeballing, so Ive a trade to make.)

Thanks for your advice!
Fred

[David Weaver]

Any one of the super finishers (13k, 12k,15k, whatever) would follow a 6k stone. You'll notice the difference in sharpness.

[Rick Fisher]

I go 4K - 8K - 13K sigma .. then Leather . .

If I had 6K instead of 8K it would be fine ..

[George Beck]

My sharpening (with the exception of a few fine Japanese blades) has evolved to 1000-5000-15000. I have a 30,000 but use it only on a few. You will notice a difference in sharpness but mostly I have noticed a difference in how long it stays sharp. A 5000 or 6000 is sharp but will quickly break down in hard wood.

[Frederick Skelly]

Thanks guys. Sounds like the 16,000 then. I appreciate it!

[Archie England]

I do use a 10k and a 13k (both Sigmas) after my 6k (Sigma); but, only end grain or swirly grain NEEDS that much more. How fast I get back to work really determines how far I'll sharpen a blade.

[Don Jarvie]

6000 is probably enough. I use a fine India then a diasharp fine and the blades are plenty sharp. Unless you have top of the line chisels and blades they will loose the edge faster than the extra time you spend.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Hi guys. If I was going to buy some stones that are even finer than 6000, what grit would you suggest? I was reading old posts on sharpening and someone suggested going as far 16,000 grit. Is it ok to jump that far in one step (from 6000 directly to 16,000)or should I use another grit in between?

If you are near Columbus Ohio, you can stop in and see if you can make a difference with a higher grit stone that I use after my 6000 :D

I keep procrastinating on attaching some leather to some wood and making a few strops; I suppose I need to decide what glue to use to attach it.... Always something to figure out I suppose.

[Russell Sansom]

This kind of discussion makes for some long threads that tend to sound alike after awhile. But curious minds want to know.
I stop at 8k or 16k, finding 6k just a hair too coarse. The way I do things, I wouldn't leap from 6k to 16k, though. One way to think about it is, what kind of edge do you want to maintain? The more "perfect" it is, the better you can monitor its degradation.

When I want to know exactly where my edge has gone after putting it to work, I go to 16k. I more commonly finish to 8k ( or 10k ) and go right to work, knowing I'll have to take the iron back to the stone after a few minutes. Or sooner if a nick appears out of nowhere. I don't know if this makes sense, but the 16k finish is much easier to keep track of.

And, finally, for me the finish on the blade is generally dictated by the wood it has to face. I'm not going pit my finest edges against rough or knotted lumber. The 16k edge would cut wonderfully for a few seconds, but then I'd be facing 5 minutes to repair it. On the other hand, if I'm smoothing a jewelry box or a pair of presentation-quality cabinet doors, I want to control the quality of my edge from beginning to end.

[David Paulsen]

Hey Guys, I'm really curious to hear your thoughts on this. I have been sharpening my chisels and blades for a long time with freehand on dmt diamond stones to 1000grit and then roughly 30 stropping strokes with fine jewelers rouge on leather (have no idea what grit, but gives a mirror polish). I can sharpen my tools in no time, max 3 min and then go on working, finding that I don't need my general roughing/shaping tools to be any sharper (unless perhaps, if they could actually hold an edge significantly longer from finer sharpening?).

And when I use my smoother, freshly sharpened, I finish up with whisper thin shavings (depending on the wood obviously) and then I burnish the surface with some of the shavings leaving a fine mirror surface on the wood. What more can I ask for than that?

So, I haven't tried going any higher than my 6000 grit and do not know what I missing out on. Or am I? Functionally speaking. And like Frederick is asking, is it worth the extra money and labor/time?

I am really not asking this as a taunt, just a curious semi newbie.

[Brent VanFossen]

I use a 16,000 glass Shapton as my final stone. I notice a difference in sharpness from when I used to finish at 8,000. Since I only use this final stone for the micro bevel, it takes no time at all for me to finish off at 16,000. Maybe 10 strokes or so.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

... and then roughly 30 stropping strokes with fine jewelers rouge on leather (have no idea what grit, but gives a mirror polish). I can sharpen my tools in no time, max 3 min and then go on working, finding that I don't need my general roughing/shaping tools to be any sharper (unless perhaps, if they could actually hold an edge significantly longer from finer sharpening?).

And when I use my smoother, freshly sharpened, I finish up with whisper thin shavings (depending on the wood obviously) and then I burnish the surface with some of the shavings leaving a fine mirror surface on the wood. What more can I ask for than that?

So, I haven't tried going any higher than my 6000 grit and do not know what I missing out on. Or am I? Functionally speaking. And like Frederick is asking, is it worth the extra money and labor/time?

My first comment is that the result is what matters.

That said, jeweler's rouge means very little to me. More specifically, it could mean anything. When someone says "Jeweler's Rouge", my first thought is that you have something very fine (3.5 to 0.3 microns) that is meant for polishing silver and gold and will likely have little effect on hard steel. The old red compound (crocus), however, is an intermediate compound somewhere between cutting and polishing, so I expect it would work (not that I have tried it). It sounds like it does work for you, so.....

Sadly, I don't think that you can use color as a guide :( I believe that a "jeweler's rouge" and a chromium oxide paste may have the same name depending on the vendor or manufacturer, but, if it really is jeweler's rouge I would not expect your results. Well, even if it is, it will probably help somewhat.

I have diamond paste and I have some green honing compound that I purchased from Lee Valley (http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?p=32984&cat=1,43072), but I have not yet used either (because my super fine Shapton stone does a pretty good job and I just have not had the time to prep to use the others).

[George Beck]

Fredrick

Sharpening is a very personal thing. I think I have purchased or tried about every "it's fast and fool proof" gizmo out there. I learned to sharpen on a hand crank 6" grind wheel and then stones. My great Uncle used one of those huge old wet stone grinders (pedal pumped) and then spit on an Arkansas stone and swirled it around. I was never successful with that method. This is why I love sharpening threads! It is always a "Duck Season, Wabbit season" debate. There are so many ways. Just find what fits you and your work. Now about this pins first or tails first issue. :)
George

[David Paulsen]

Hey Andrew, Yeah, you are right, it might not be jewelers rouge, I think it's a red chromium oxide paste... But then again, I'm not certain. And my lack of english terminology doesn't help either. The site I bought it from doesn't have it anymore. But the paste does make a difference for me. Maybe its the leather? Anywho... Like you wrote... It's the result that matters. If I had the money I might try a finer way of sharpening, but I haven't had any trouble as it is. And as a purely neander woodworker, I really appreciate the low sharpening time so I can get back to business.
Would be fun to try though, one day.

[David Weaver]

It might be iron oxide. You don't want any chromium pastes that are maroon, they are carciongenic chromium IV if that's the case.

Iron oxide paste is not uncommon, and it definitely is capable of working an edge or creating a bright polish.

If you don't feel the want for a finer stone, then there's no reason to get one. In the rare case you want to push the stone to get a better edge, just let the surface dry and use it as it loads.

[Winton Applegate]

That's what I love about this forum; some body asks a question and I am about to go on and on up on my soap box and then I read the thread and everything (and more) that I was going to bang the table about has already been said. I am going to save on the price of new keyboards hanging around here.


So I will say just a couple of short things :
• The brand and quality of the stone has something to do with quality of edge. (well at least quality of polish when looking at it with magnification) My 10,000 Ice Bear stone does not give as clean a polish as my 8000 Norton or my 8000 Shapton. There seems to be some larger grit mixed in to the Ice Bear. Probably could still make that Newport secretary you have been planing just fine with the Ice Bear though.
: )
• I would suggest going with a line of stones and sticking with them. I went from Norton to Shapton and am very pleased. I get my Shaptons from Craftsman Studio Fine Tools and Books and they could not do a better job for me. Fair price, good info on the site, superior packaging of the stones, ship quick and in stock when I order.


• George Beck :
I have nearly every grit of the Shapton Pro stones except the 30,000.
Is it true it is possible to hear angels singing while using the thirdy thou' ?
: )

[Jim Koepke]

Iron oxide paste is not uncommon

My understanding (which may be wrong) is that iron oxide is what makes the rouge color in jeweler's rouge.

As for the original question about using a finer stone for a sharper blade, my answer would be if it can be afforded, by all means, go for it.

My finest stone is an 8000. One of these days it is my hope to get a finer stone. The 8000 does leave a fully functioning edge for most of my work. But occasionally, something even sharper is desired.

The trouble with one's desires is once we have obtained it we tend to want it all the time.

jtk

[Jim Koepke]

Is it true it is possible to hear angels singing while using the thirdy thou' ?
: )

Of course, that is what is on my iPod most of the time during a sharpening session. :cool:

jtk

[Winton Applegate]

[QUOTE that smoothing plane's edge . . . beyond 6000) worth the money at this point? (Two fine grit shaptons costs as much as some Veritas items Ive been eyeballing, so Ive a trade to make.)[/QUOTE]

And another thing :
Since it is down to either a new tool or stones hmmmm
As David Weaver said you could use your 6000 while it is loaded up and drier. That is brillient. I wish I would have known how to do that when I was just starting out.
I think it comes down to a few more questions :
What woods are you finish planing ?
Are you going to sand or scrape after the finish planing?
What kind of steel are you sharpening ? The newer alloy steels in the LN and Varitas blades or good old basic high carbon in the vintage tools ?
Do you enjoy sharpening and looking at pretty shiiny blades when you are done (most probably don't, I do).
The longevetyt on harder woods may be worth getting an 8000. For sure for sure you don't need a finer stone for getting the job done beyond that.

Stones beyond 8k or 10k is just farting around; which I must say I enjoy quite a lot.

[Chris Griggs]

If you want to try something really fine before investing in an expensive stone buy some .5 micron chromium oxide powder/paste or some .5 to 1 micron diamond paste and put it on some mdf (this will cost you $10 max - heck, shoot me a PM I'll send you a bit of mine which will cost you $0). I think a stone is a nicer to use, but your not going to find any standardly available reasonably priced stone that gets you any finer than .5 micron chromium oxide. Also, if you only use it for a final true micro bevel it will make the jump from 6k just fine.

I have a bag of powder I got from here (http://shop.starshaving.com/product.sc;jsessionid=3886B24278A9BE2C49A9D4BDE4C9 5502.m1plqscsfapp01?productId=8&categoryId=1) that I got for my razors but I keep something in the workshop loaded with it too for when I need it (which is really only when I'm finish planing especially tough grain or doing delicate chisel work). A small bag of CrOx or syringe of diamond paste will last you quite a while. I love sharpening stones, but at this stage in the game when there are some many other things you could put out $100-$200 towards I advise sticking with powders/compounds for now (assuming your happy with your 1k-6k), then put that money you were going to spend on stones towards an handtool from LN/LV/wherever that will be really helpful to you on whaterever your next project is or perhaps some nice lumber.

I'm not saying not to upgrade your stones at some point, high quality stones are very nice to have, but there are cheaper ways to get the edge you want if you have other places you might want to put that money at present.

Anyway, as others have said, if you do decide yo buy another stone, you certainly don't need two more. Just get a Shapton Pro 12k, Shapton Pro 15k, or Sigma 13k. Those any of those will work fine.

[Winton Applegate]

I too used the diamond paste on wood block (maple block planed flat) for quite a while before I ran out of things to buy and started buying lots of stones.
The paste sure works. There are drawbacks like about every thing but makes blades sharp for sure at a low cost.

[Winton Applegate]

Music to sharpen by. Hey we could start a whole 'nother thread on just that.
Tower speakers verses headphones. Stones tuned to the harmonics of the first violin (or is it visa versa ?). Anybody feel capable of running with that one ?

[Andrew Pitonyak]

you are right, it might not be jewelers rouge, I think it's a red chromium oxide paste...

The people selling the stuff are likely to mark it as such, but, if you are correct, then it seems more likely that it would make a difference. I suspect that you might speed thing up a bit with something in between, but you can only know by trying :)

I think you are a bit far out to just stop in and try what I have.... but it would be fun!

[Andrew Pitonyak]

I too used the diamond paste on wood block (maple block planed flat) for quite a while before I ran out of things to buy and started buying lots of stones. The paste sure works.

The paste is not overly expensive, and it is easy to setup and do this.

[Larry Fox]

I learned the Rob Cosman method of free-hand sharpening at one of his week-long classes and go from 1000 Shapton for secondary bevel to either 16,000 or 30,000 Shapton for tertiary bevel. All takes about 2 minutes from iron out of plane to iron back in plane and back to work. I can consistently cut a full-width shaving in cherry (I have a test block setup) that you can see through.

[Frederick Skelly]

Thanks guys. Ill try the powder or the paste, both are great ideas. Ill add it to the order Im about to send off. Thatll be well worth the money.

I tried the cosman technique over the weekend with 1200/6000. It sure was faster. Almost seems too good to be true, but as you guys said, sharpening is a personal thing so Ill try that for a while and see where it goes.

Chris, thanks again for your extra advice. Seems Im picking your brain a lot lately.

Fred

[Kees Heiden]

The problem for me with secundairy bevels when freehanding is the second time I need to go back to the coarse (1000 grit in my case) stone. It takes quite a while to remove the secundairy bevel and raise a wire edge again. So, while secundairy bevels seems quick, you pay for it in the long run. In other words, the steel must still be removed, sooner or later.

But I still do a small secundairy bevel on my 8000 stone, and don't really have a solution to my "problem".

[Chris Griggs]

The problem for me with secundairy bevels when freehanding is the second time I need to go back to the coarse (1000 grit in my case) stone. It takes quite a while to remove the secundairy bevel and raise a wire edge again. So, while secundairy bevels seems quick, you pay for it in the long run. In other words, the steel must still be removed, sooner or later.

But I still do a small secundairy bevel on my 8000 stone, and don't really have a solution to my "problem".

Yeah, you really need to be conscious about keeping it tiny....like just a few strokes once you raise the edge. I find it works best and keeps it small if I use as as more of a followup just be sure I got the whole edge polished. As in, I'll work the primary bevel on the fine stone and then just raise the edge for a few pull strokes as a final step. Its less about speed and more about making sure you really get a full polish in the cutting edge (which is really the benefit of the ruler trick too, not to avoid having to flatten the back). If your tools are hollow ground it doesn't take long to polish the primary bevel and if you really only keep the secondary to 3-10 pull strokes (depending on how fine you final step is) it won't really add any time to raising the burr again when you go back to the lower grit stone for rehoning.

The other option, of course is to just continue to work the secondary bevel and let it grow....if you just reference the primary on the stone each time and then try to lift about the same amount when you hone its not very hard to match the secondary even thought it seems like it would be - its small enough that any sight change self corrects, and when it gets to big to match/self correct easily just go back to the grinder.

[Larry Fox]

The points about keeping the secondary bevel small are good ones as it makes raising that desired wire-edge much easier on subsequent visits to the 1000. Regardless of whether I am working in the shop or not, I try to sharpen at least one iron a day to keep the muscle memory fresh. I find that if I keep in practice I have much better control over this secondary bevel and have to regrind the primary much less frequently than I do if I fall out of practice. It also helps that the 1000 Shapton cuts quickly and I don't have to hold the angle for as long. The tertiary one is where I tend to have the most difficulty and takes the most finesse (for me anyway). I have explicitly forbidden myself from using a jig or fixture to hold the angle as I know enough about myself to know that if there is fuss or setup involved I will put it off and my work will suffer. The practice really helps me with my technique.

[Chris Griggs]

You'll have an easier time if instead of focusing on "memorizing" holding specific angles, you work developing how to "feel" the bevel. You should be easily able to feel when you have full primary bevel contact and as you get better you learn to feeling when you have full contact on smaller bevels. There's no better way to learn this to hone on a hollow grind.

When I was learning to freehand I found that it was much more beneficial to work on "feeling" that bevel contact than trying to lock my arms and wrists into a specific angle. Also, if you can feel the bevel(s) it doesn't matter what angle your tools are ground honed at. Perhaps you are already doing this, I don't know anything about the details of how The Cos teaches sharpening, but my impression from his "angle trainer" advertisements is that he tends to focus on "memorizing" and locking in specific angle...which is fine if that's the case...i just happen to think learning to feel bevel contact is the best thing to focus on.

[Harold Burrell]

You'll have an easier time if instead of focusing on "memorizing" holding specific angles, you work developing how to "feel" the bevel. You should be easily able to feel when you have full primary bevel contact and as you get better you learn to feeling when you have full contact on smaller bevels. There's no better way to learn this to hone on a hollow grind.

When I was learning to freehand I found that it was much more beneficial to work on "feeling" that bevel contact than trying to lock my arms and wrists into a specific angle. Also, if you can feel the bevel(s) it doesn't matter what angle your tools are ground honed at. Perhaps you are already doing this, I don't know anything about the details of how The Cos teaches sharpening, but my impression from his "angle trainer" advertisements is that he tends to focus on "memorizing" and locking in specific angle...which is fine if that's the case...i just happen to think learning to feel bevel contact is the best thing to focus on.

Man...I so badly want to be able to do this. So far...well...I am a tad "chicken". I still use a honing jig. Even with a hollow grind I "feel" nothing...:o

[Chris Griggs]

Man...I so badly want to be able to do this. So far...well...I am a tad "chicken". I still use a honing jig. Even with a hollow grind I "feel" nothing...:o

Start with a wide chisel with a hollow grind at a relatively low angle (25 degrees). It will have a bevel that is wide in both directions. Trust me, you will be able to feel it "click" down on the stone when you rock it onto the bevel. Than practice finding that bevel, by rocking it forward, and holding that bevel down on the stone just taking back strokes. You will probably be comfortable honing the primary bevel using just pull strokes in under 10 minutes. This will show you what it "feels" like to have bevel contact, once you learn that feel you can than slowly move to push and pull strokes and tools with smaller bevels. Also, it easiest if your tool is turned at least 30 degrees or so (and up to 90 degrees) to your stroking motion so you will be less likely to accidentally rock the chisel forward and back off of the bevel.

[Derek Cohen]

The problem for me with secundairy bevels when freehanding is the second time I need to go back to the coarse (1000 grit in my case) stone. It takes quite a while to remove the secundairy bevel and raise a wire edge again. So, while secundairy bevels seems quick, you pay for it in the long run. In other words, the steel must still be removed, sooner or later.

But I still do a small secundairy bevel on my 8000 stone, and don't really have a solution to my "problem".

Kees, this is one of the reasons I do not like secondary bevels. I take the easy way out ... hone directly on the hollow. The micro bevel so created is coplanar with the primary bevel. As it widens, so you can regrind the hollow, and take out some of the centre steel without removing from the length. I use a Tormek, so the hollow is shallower, but I can get closer to the edge, which means less steel to hone.

To the OP, my final stone is either a 12K Shapton Pro or a 13K Sigma.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Larry Fox]

Man...I so badly want to be able to do this. So far...well...I am a tad "chicken". I still use a honing jig. Even with a hollow grind I "feel" nothing...:o

I think that there tends to be a lot of mystery and trepidation around sharpening and if you can get past that and understand what is going on it is not that tough. Not to sound like a Cosman salesman but the guy really does know his stuff and if I can learn to do it, I am pretty convinced that anyone can. When I took the class he was able to get me to a point where I had a solid understanding of what was going on and passable technique at the stones in about 2 hours. If you are going off the videos (which is the same material) it might take a bit longer. Go ultra conservative and call it 4 times as long - that's 8 hours. In the grand scheme of things that's nothing. That's a rainy Saturday spent in the shop practicing / rewatching parts of the video etc. Assuming you have a good setup with stones and all that you can send $50 to LN and they will ship you a replacement iron for a #7. Write this iron off as practice and assume it is trashed - this will remove the fear of messing up a tool. At the end of all this, you will be able to do the entire process in under 2 minutes.

[Mike Holbrook]

I bought a couple Shaptons when they first came out, one fell to the floor in its box and broke. When I bought the Shaptons they were out of stock on a couple stones which started me down a strange path. I still have a Shapton 2,000. Now my normal stones are well odd. 120, 700, 3,000, 6,000, 10,000 all Sigmas from Stu at Tools from Japan. I like the bigger heavier stones Stu carries.The 700 is a monster which is good since it is often used longer. The 3,000, 6,000 and 10,000 stones are Select II's which are designed for extra tough steel. I am all about fast cutting stones. I even bought a DMT Dia-Flat Lapping Plate for flattening stones and fast initial work. I use a Tormek and a 1-2" belt sander sometimes too. I maintain a 12 acre dog park so there are shovels, hoes, pruners, axes, mauls, splitters, mower blades.....as well as wood working tools to sharpen.

[Winton Applegate]

I enjoyed your quotes; aliens and W.C.
I must take issue with the feehand sharpening though.
I can sharpen by hand, that's alright for pocket knives.
When if comes to precision cutting tools, that is what we are talking about here in a finish plane blade, especially for the harder and problem wood grains then jigs and repeatably consistent angles actually save time, metal and stones in the final analysis. The finish plane blades honed to precise angles with flat facets cut better longer. As there are different levels of how to sharpen there are different degrees of edge quality requirements as the wood gets harder and weirder.


For example it is possible to sail from San Francisco to Hawaii without a compass but it sure is less fatiguing and more precise to use a compass. Especially if one makes the trip often.


That's a technical term "weirder". I believe it has been added to the glossaries of all the latest mechanical engineering text books. Also to climate change technical jargon as I recall. One researcher stated on a documentary "It is not so much climate warming as it is climate weirding " or that is pretty close to what he said.
I would also add Shapton stones (pros; don't try to sell me one 'o those glass things) take up less room than thick heavy stones and will last me a life time because they are much longer wearing than say Nortons yet cut quick enough.
Initially I was taken aback by how thin they are but have come around to appreciate them in all their svelteness.

[Chris Griggs]

I can sharpen by hand, that's alright for pocket knives.


Please don't take this the wrong way, but if your experience with freehand honing tools is a pocket knife quality edge than your frankly not doing a very good job with it (unless you are awesome at honing pocket knives, and just that much awesomer at honing tools:)). That said, there's no special award for being able to hone your tools freehand...I'm all for honing jigs for those who like them...whatever makes the process better & faster for the individual is great. But don't assume freehand honing can't be done easily and consistently to get very high quality edges.



When if comes to precision cutting tools, that is what we are talking about here in a finish plane blade, especially for the harder and problem wood grains then jigs and repeatably consistent angles actually save time, metal and stones in the final analysis. The finish plane blades honed to precise angles with flat facets cut better longer. As there are different levels of how to sharpen there are different degrees of edge quality requirements as the wood gets harder and weirder.


I'd say its a wash as far as time is concerned. Generally, I feel freehanding is a little quicker but I have to admit there are definitely times I find myself futzing with an edge where things would have been quicker if I just chucked it in a jig with a secondary bevel and very quickly ground out any micro imperfections on a 1k stone. Again, the speed thing is all just kinda washes out to me, and if I really took the time to consider every second (which I won't), my guess is that maximum speed would come from honing some things freehand (e.g. chisels and skew blades) and other things in a guide (e.g. some plane blades). A lot of folks say how much faster freehanding is, but if you have a quick easy way to set your angles in your honing guide than using a guide is pretty darn fast. I'd still rather freehand, because, most of the time, when I'm honing mid project its less fiddly and a bit faster in the moment (particularly for things like quick touch ups of chisels). As far maximum sharpness on smoother I'd agree that a jig can be of benefit. I've been following a piece of advice I got from Dave Weaver for my finish smoothers....that is after I've honed my blade like normal, I stick it in my jig at a high angle (about 35 degrees) and give it a few swipes on my finest honing medium (usually .5 micron CrOx). The higher angle maximizes edge longevity and the jig is more of insurance that I'm getting the best edge possible. For the most part even on a finish smoother the edge isn't that much sharper (if at all sharper) for having been jigged but in this case since the point is to work the smallest amount of steel possible on my finest medium, it does make things a bit easier.

Anyway, like I said I'm in no way anti honing jig and I still keep an eclipse sitting with my sharpening stuff, but if you freehand hone well its pretty darn precise...especially if you're honing on a full flat grind (like on a Japanese chisel) or on a hollow grind. I'm a decent pocket and kitchen knife sharpener, but the bevels are a lot smaller and/or not hollow so they are a good bit harder for me to get as sharp most tools.

[Larry Fox]

Winton, I think it is one of those "whatever works best for you" things. Just to be clear, I am definitely not anti-jig but I know myself and the laziness is strong in me so FOR ME they represent another thing to futz with and I know they would cause me to put off the sharpening process and my work would suffer. I am sure that if you were to put a blade I free-hand sharpened under one of those microscopes where you can see the scratch pattern that it would be a disaster but I am able to consistently take a whispy thin full-width shaving after sharpening which is good enough for me. That said, I don't work with highly figured woods very often and my technique might fail me there.

[Chris Hachet]

I am using an 8000 right now, cost effective way to go up in grit to 12k or so?

[Mike Holbrook]

Wooo there Chris! Don't be implying my pocket knives are somehow lesser steel or less precise tools than a plane blade! Actually I know what he means, but all those custom knife makers out there are pushing custom steel development harder than other hand tools: S30V, S35VN, ELMAX, CPT 104P, M390, 154CM, D2, CPM-M4, VG-10....All those guys want is a knife they can chop a tree down with and shave with when they are done.

If you want sharp knife blades spend the money for a Spyderco Tri-Angle kit. This little jig holds one of three sets of triangular rods ( fine, medium, diamond) at the correct angle so the sharpener just runs the edge down them with the blade perpendicular to the work surface. This sharpening devise sort of combines hand and jig methods to produce a consistent bevel with a simple jig and hand alignment. Gary Blum, Blum Tool Co. offers an interesting jig which makes it very easy for the sharpener to clamp a chisel or plane blade in an exact position & angle on the jig. The sharpener then moves the stone across the tool bevel. The jig's surface keeps the stone in a fixed position relative to the tool edge, so all the sharpener has to do is slide the stone back & forth over the tool.

[Winton Applegate]

Chris Hachet,
Seems like we are all getting confused as to who said what and who is responding to whom. Let me contribute to the confusion as best I can.


As far as I can tell from the thread structure you didn't get an answer to your question >I am using an 8000 right now, cost effective way to go up in grit to 12k or so?<


Well if you look at the price of a Shapton 30,000 it makes the Shapton 15,000 look like a great bargain and so cost effective. I would buy one of those, as I have, before they see their error and put the price up.
: )
http://www.craftsmanstudio.com/html_p/Q!0P0000.htm (http://www.craftsmanstudio.com/html_p/Q!0P0000.htm)


Mike Holbrook,
you said " all the sharpener has to do is slide the stone back & forth over the tool."
Ooooh no that sounds too easy. This smacks of machine tool woodworking; table saws and joiners and stuff. What I call "machine OPERATOR woodworking". Where's the skill ? Where's the romance ? There just is not enough adversity , suspense and drama. Pocket knife sharpening jig. Indeed.


Ha, ha see I can argue both sides.


I have looked at many knife sharpening jigs and bought some. One of the draw backs I see to most is they don't work well on the small pocket knives one actually caries in one's pocket. Those blades are too small and the thing can't hold the blade and produce a shallow enough cutting angle at the same time. I am aware of one that uses a set of magnets and a reference rabet cut in the blade holder with no clamp on the stone side of the blade. I may make something like that one day.


Back to the small pocket knives one actually caries in one's pocket. For example , out of respect to Ian Kirby and all he has taught me through his many articles and books, I carry a simple Swiss Army Bantom
http://www.swissarmy.com/us/product/Swiss-Army-Knives/Category/Everyday-Use/Bantam/53941 (http://www.swissarmy.com/us/product/Swiss-Army-Knives/Category/Everyday-Use/Bantam/53941)
He uses it as a marking knife. Turns out that is one small area we disagree but I have the knife and I carry it and am happy all to heck with it. Maybe some day I will put an exact copy of the blade in it out of dimascus. That would be a curiosity wouldn't it ?


By the way in my search for a link to the Bantom I ran across this . Apparently they are serious
http://www.amazon.com/Wenger-16999-Swiss-Knife-Giant/dp/B001DZTJRQ/ref=sr_1_81?s=sporting-goods&ie=UTF8&qid=1368989090&sr=1-81&keywords=swiss+army+knife (http://www.amazon.com/Wenger-16999-Swiss-Knife-Giant/dp/B001DZTJRQ/ref=sr_1_81?s=sporting-goods&ie=UTF8&qid=1368989090&sr=1-81&keywords=swiss+army+knife)


I have tons of other knives. I lost a little Western three blade in the parking lot as I was getting out of my MG at a Woodcraft store. I was sure I had it when I got in the car and not when I got in the store. Some body picked it up in the parking lot.
Still chaps my ace after twelve years. Real blades in that little knife. They would rust (if I let them) and every thing.


You got me going on pocket knives :
Most often I use a pocket knife to cut up a card board box and to cut wire ties.
I find the most useful blade for boxes and for the ties is a thin blade. Swiss army wins with a box knife coming up from the rear.
One of THE FUNNIEST things I have ever seen was a guy cutting up a large card board box with one of the ever popular serrated folding clip on the pocket, knife things. He sawed and sawed and sawed and there was paper shavings flying every where and it took like five minutes where a basic thin blade knife would have been a minute tops.
Still makes me laugh to think about it.


What is the idea behind those scallop bladed pseudo combat pocket knives again ? It has never been clear to me.


I used to think the Swiss army knife blades were crap and wouldn't hold an edge and then I threw caution to the wind and started sharpening mine with a way more acute angle practically following the sides of the thin blade.
Now it is boxes and even large wire ties cut until the cows come home. Try that with a thicker back Buck or fancy what have you with a more "normal" sharpening angle. That too is funny to watch.
Cutting up people (do people really still do that much ?), or God forbid, animals, well I suppose those thick back things are good for that. Kind of out of my realm of every day uses.


Take it over a course stone till I feel a bur, not enough to see really, then go the other side, then a finer stone or two, or if I am really getting into it which I usually am, a third stone. Feel the bur, go the other side. Check on the thumb nail for bite at a shallow angle. Strop on the palm of the hand. Viola ! Shaves.


Plane blades ? Nah that's a whole 'nother universe.


Dave Paulson who said " Hi , I'm really curious"
I will say "Hi, i'm mildly curious". "Nice to meet you." Maybe we share some distant family ties.
: )

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Winton, for a "new guy here" you have figured it out faster than most; sometimes we get side tracked and don't answer the question. :o


...
you said " all the sharpener has to do is slide the stone back & forth over the tool."
Ooooh no that sounds too easy. This smacks of machine tool woodworking; table saws and joiners and stuff. What I call "machine OPERATOR woodworking". Where's the skill ? Where's the romance ? There just is not enough adversity , suspense and drama. Pocket knife sharpening jig. Indeed.


Off hand, I have to agree with mike on this, all you need to do is slide it back and forth over the tool. What is missing is that it needs to be done at the correct consistent angle, etc....

As for Where is the romance. I have two thoughts.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romancing_the_Stone (nuff said on point one)
Sometimes I think that I need to buy someone a nice dinner and flowers before I am able to get something sharp :D





I have looked at many knife sharpening jigs and bought some. One of the draw backs I see to most is they don't work well on the small pocket knives one actually caries in one's pocket. Those blades are too small and the thing can't hold the blade and produce a shallow enough cutting angle at the same time. I am aware of one that uses a set of magnets and a reference rabet cut in the blade holder with no clamp on the stone side of the blade. I may make something like that one day.

I have tried many things for sharpening knives.... I have had some success and some failure. I certainly had some luck with simple cross-sticks, but my primary success came after I exchanged private messages with Rick Markham here on the forum. I then purchased some water stones and I was slicing tomatoes effortlessly with my non-serrated knives. This is my lattest thing that feels pretty easy to use and I think that pretty much anyone can likely handle it. It comes with three different grits of sand paper. After you wear out one of the finest grits, use it with some polishing compound and you can get things even sharper.

www.amazon.com/Sharp-WSKTS-KT-Knife-Sharpener-Field/dp/B008YW27O8

I did not have the best luck sharpening knives with my Tormek, but I love it for many other things. I mean, I did get my knives sharp, but I prefer other methods.



Back to the small pocket knives one actually caries in one's pocket. For example , out of respect to Ian Kirby and all he has taught me through his many articles and books, I carry a simple Swiss Army Bantom
http://www.swissarmy.com/us/product/Swiss-Army-Knives/Category/Everyday-Use/Bantam/53941 (http://www.swissarmy.com/us/product/Swiss-Army-Knives/Category/Everyday-Use/Bantam/53941)
He uses it as a marking knife. Turns out that is one small area we disagree but I have the knife and I carry it and am happy all to heck with it. Maybe some day I will put an exact copy of the blade in it out of dimascus. That would be a curiosity wouldn't it ?


I have a strong preference to Wenger over Victorinox for one reason.... I prefer the scissors on the Wenger. I have been carrying something similar to this for years (very small, at least the one I have is):

http://www.amazon.com/Wenger-16803-Swiss-EvoGrip-Pocket/dp/B001UFKA6S

My preference may be unfounded, but somewhere along the line I developed this preference. I expect the advantage for the Victorinox is that it is probably easier to fix the scissors if the spring breaks. I do agree with you on the size and such.


What is the idea behind those scallop bladed pseudo combat pocket knives again ? It has never been clear to me.

It acts as a saw. I wanted it for cutting tough things such as rope. I started carrying a knife everywhere while riding horses and I wanted something that would simply rip through a horses lead line if it was tied to something and then something scared it. At that time, I did not have a "scalloped" blade.

I was being given a "knife demonstration", and as part of the pitch, they asked if I had anything that could cut this really tough thick nylon rope. I pulled out one of my blades that has a scalloped edge near the base and I cut right through the rope. The knives that they had all had a jagged edge on the blade so that they could cut the rope as well. At the time, these were less common. I think that I produced this knife

http://www.shop.knifeandtactical.com/Kershaw-Amphibian-KS1006K.htm

The person said that I was the first person that had been able to produce something that so easily cut the rope.

When I carry something larger than my Wenger, i am most likely carrying a Gerber with a similar edge (but only edged on one side).




I used to think the Swiss army knife blades were crap and wouldn't hold an edge and then I threw caution to the wind and started sharpening mine with a way more acute angle practically following the sides of the thin blade.
Now it is boxes and even large wire ties cut until the cows come home. Try that with a thicker back Buck or fancy what have you with a more "normal" sharpening angle.

I would expect that a smaller angle would make a finer cut but that the thicker angle would resist breaking down more readily. For my uses, I prefer the shallow angle so I have a finer cut.... I expect to touch it up more. I won't argue with your results, however.

Oh, I do expect that most "swiss army knives" are crap. I was asked to donate money to an organization that I support and they would give me a "swiss army knife". It is cheap garbage. I was able to put an edge on it, but, forget it holding an edge. Now when I am asked say to take a survey to receive a free knife, I usually decline because I don't expect the knife to hold an edge.


Plane blades ? Nah that's a whole 'nother universe.

In theory, I think that it should not be. In practice, however.... it sure feels different.