Large overlay on frameless cabinets...

[Steve Wurster]

Does anyone know if there are concealed hinges that will allow for an overlay in the 1 to 1.25 inch range for frameless cabinets?

I'm designing a built-in where there will be about a 1.5 inch gap between each base cabinet (due to room sizing), and so I was going to cover that space with about a 3 inch face frame that would not overlap any of the inside parts of the cabinets. But since I'm going for the "wall of doors" look with my overlay doors, I need more than a "full" 3/4 inch overlay that you might typically see with frameless cabinets.

If nothing exists then I think I'll have enough material to widen the cabinets and shrink that 1.5 inch gap between them. If I leave the covering face frame at 3 inches wide, that will create a small lip on the inside of the cabinet onto which I can install face frame hinges. I'm pretty sure there are face frame hinges out there that allow for that large of an overlay, but I was hoping to go with frameless style cabinets.

Thanks,
Steve

[Chris Rosenberger]

Blum has some. But I do not understand the reason for making the cabinets small & using fillers. If you are building the cabinets, why not build them to fit?

http://www.wwhardware.com/blum-compact-33-edge-mount-mounting-plates-b130-11

[Steve Wurster]

Thanks for the pointer on the hinge plates. Although I'm not exactly sure how they work...

As for the cabinet sizes, I've gone back and forth with this a number of times. The entire unit will have base cabinets on the bottom, and open bookcases on top (shorter depth). If I go completely frameless on the bottom with nearly full overlay, the bookcases don't seem to line up in a nice way given the size of their frames. But I'll probably revisit this tonight since I have been thinking about widening the base cabinets. I can probably eliminate the filler on the base cabinets without changing that 3 inch face frame; it would just give them a 3/4 inch overhang on the inside, which might be okay.

Of course I already placed my plywood order so I am limited in what I can cut unless I buy some more locally.

[Chris Rosenberger]

Below is a picture of how the hinge plate mounts. It just mounts to the inside edge of the face frame or to the inside face of the cabinet side if the cabinets are frameless.

I guess I do not understand completely on how you are building your cabinets unless to are trying to build the upper & lower boxes the same width. This would be fewer different size parts to cut.

Since you are covering the lower boxes with all doors, the width of those boxes would not have to be the same width as the uppers. But that would increase the number of different size parts to cut.

http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o303/chrisrosenb/DSCF2219_zpsf8a32dcc.jpg (http://s123.photobucket.com/user/chrisrosenb/media/DSCF2219_zpsf8a32dcc.jpg.html)

[Steve Wurster]

Thanks for the pic.

The lowers will be about 24 inches wide OD, with the uppers basically matching that. The uppers will be sitting on a counter and so will be separate boxes; their sizes don't have to match. Given the width of the lowers and my desire to have no overlap on the inside of their face frame (i.e. frameless), a 3 inch width frame seemed to look the best. Not that you'll really see it through the doors. But to get that I basically need a 1.5 inch space between the cabinets. So as I said, if I widen the base cabinets so they're no gap between them, I'll have a more traditional face frame look with 3/4 inch overhang on the inside, and then I can go with more typical face frame hinges. I'll have to mess with my design in Sketchup to see if it works out okay. I'm pretty sure I can get away with that on my cut list as well.

As for the uppers, they have a gap for a similar reason. There's a 4 inch width frame on those, with 1/2 inch overhang on the inside of the cases to keep the shelves trapped (for lack of a better word). That leaves the same 1.5 inch space between the cabinets. If I widen the uppers then I'll have to make that face frame narrower, and I'm not sure it will look that great. Plus I might hit the limits on my available material, although that can be easily addressed if need be (the unit is getting painted so it's not like the veneers have to match).

[Ethan Melad]

so it sounds like you're building everything to have both a face frame and full overlay doors, yes? why not just do 'actual' frameless for the base cabinets? since they are full overlay you wont see whether there is a frame or not anyway, so no need to match the frame on the upper shelves.

[Steve Wurster]

If I go truly frameless then I'll see the line in between the cabinets, and I'm not a fan of that look. Additionally, due to the room size there will be a small gap on both the left and the right side of the entire unit, and I'm simply covering that with a stile that's scribed to fit. That stile will basically be the same size as the one that covers two adjacent cabinets (i.e. 3 inches).

I adjusted the design last night to have the more typical face frame style on the lowers and I think that will work out well. So there's no gap between the units anymore. I did the same for the uppers which of course resulted in a narrower face frame. It still looks pretty good, so I think I will go with that. It does require me to get some additional plywood sheets, but hopefully I'll be able to adjust my order before it ships on Tuesday.

[Jeff Duncan]

Can you post a pic of your design? I'm trying to grasp what your doing and it's just not making much sense so I'm probably not quite getting it. If your going for a full overlay look why would you need/want extra wide face frames? Plus 4" wide frames seem pretty excessive unless you have a real particular look your going for? I also don't quite get that you want a Euro style cabinet with frames attached....that's a face frame cabinet?

I'll add a couple things just as general observations....first off the Blum hinges can overlay to at least 1-5/8" so your covered there. In general if your going to have open shelves on top of cabinets with doors you want the uprights to match up. Not written in stone or anything, but be careful of going outside the norm if your not sure. As I mentioned 4" wide uprights are exceptionally wide, I've done them before but only for a very specific and detailed design and they weren't all the way across, only at the opposing ends.

Anyway if you can share your design we may be able to help further. Right now I'm just trying to give general advice as I can't quite picture what you have going on.

good luck,
JeffD

[Steve Wurster]

I've changed the design to a standard face frame, so ignore my ramblings about frameless style. I'm not really sure why I was trying to go with that look.

The frames will overlap the inside of the cabinets by about 3/4", which I think is about standard. All I really did was widen the cabinets themselves so they butt up against each other, but didn't adjust the sizes of the frames. There will still be space on the ends for scribing the face frame to fit; part of that is due to the room size.

The frames on the lowers will be 3" wide, so if they were individually installed cabinets that came with their own frames that would be a 1.5" frame all around. The doors will overhang most of that, which matches the look of other cabinets in the house (though not in that room).

The uppers will now have 2.5" wide frames between them (i.e. 1.25" per individual cabinet), with slightly wider ones at the ends to make up the space. Again, I widened the cabinets so they butt up against each other, but in this case I also made the stiles skinnier so the overlap on the inside of the cabinets stayed the same as before (about 1/2"). That overlap is really just there to trap the shelves. So while the lowers will have a wider frame, most of that will be hidden by the doors.

Here's a picture of the general idea from Sketchup. Might be a little hard to see what I'm getting at with some of the frames.

262204

[Jeff Duncan]

Ok I think I see what your after. I think your fine the way your going to do it. FWIW I usually make my face frames 1-1/2" wide with 1/8" overlap on the outside edge and 5/8" overlap on the inside. This allows my to have some wiggle room when installing without worrying about the plywood sides having any bow that'll really screw up your install! I also leave the sides of the carcass 1/8" deeper than the top/bottom, this allows me to run a groove in the FF that seats onto the sides of the box, then pocket hole screws all around. This method makes for a nice rigid box that's easy to align and install.

Now for the uppers....on a piece like this I would not use separate face frames....just personally don't like the look. I'd build the boxes similar to my base cabs and install the fronts last. One 3" wide front would span the two cabinets. This gives the nicest "built-in" look....again IMHO. This is one I did maybe 2 years or so ago...it's in cherry, but I do paint grade the same way. The fronts are only 2-1/2" wide or so to get the "look" I was after. The bottom are not FF cabinets but a method I use to get a sort of inset look without the inset price;) I build the box with the top/bottom set back 1" from the front upright. Then when the doors go on you get a flush look. Again, very simple to construct giving a less expensive option for clients who don't want/need super high end:)
http://i762.photobucket.com/albums/xx268/JDWoodworking/IMG_1139.jpg (http://s762.photobucket.com/user/JDWoodworking/media/IMG_1139.jpg.html)

I also always like to continue my uprights from top to bottom....again just personal preference so go with what works for you;)

good luck,
JeffD

[Steve Wurster]

I didn't think about the 1/8" overlap on the outside to deal with bowed material. I guess I'll look into that depending on how flat the material is or isn't.

I don't understand what you mean by the sides being 1/8" deeper. Are they extended forward in the front with maybe a tongue on them to accept the groove in the FF? I was probably going to put a groove in both the FF and the cabinet sides and use a spline for alignment, but I was still debating that in my mind.

The uppers will not have separate face frames for each cabinet. It will be like in your picture (very similar to what I am doing), with a single piece spanning two cabinets.

I'm going with an overlay look on the bottom; basically a "wall of doors". So while the bottom will have a 3" wide frame (spanning two cabinets), it should still look okay given that the uppers will be skinnier at 2.5".

Love the piece, by the way. I originally wanted to go for cherry, but the room has white baseboards (as did yours here) and white crown molding, and so I went back and forth over whether cherry would look good against that. But since the room is a bit dark we decided to go with white for the unit instead. I'll be doing a toe kick on the bottom mainly for reach reasons, and I'll be continuing the crown across the top of the unit (not drawn in my picture).

[Jeff Duncan]

So I'll explain how I'm cutting parts for a kitchen right now. All the material is 3/4" pre-fin maple and gets cut to 23-5/16" for the bottom cabinets....(will be 24" with the FF added). I'll then bore all the construction holes while the panels are at the same size. Then I rip the tops/bottoms down to 23-3/16" so they sit back from the front of the sides. I then take my faceframes and using a dado set run a 1/8" deep 3/4" wide groove 1/8" in from both sides. So now my cabinets sides themselves are acting as the "tongues". I'm fitting all the doors and hardware now and then I'll remove the frames for finishing. Once done I'll use a thin bead of construction adhesive along the grooves and apply the FF's to the boxes, the grooves ensuring they go back on exactly where they came off. A handful of pocket screws will hold her together and end result is a really beefy yet easy to build box!

FWIW I love building with cherry! I don't get that many cherry jobs, mostly paint grade around here. But it is nice to break up the monotony of paint once in a while! I'm doing this kitchen in white, then another set of cabs in white before I start a master bath in walnut.....that'll be fun:D

good luck,
JeffD