Building an entry door (many questions)

[mreza Salav]

We are in planing stages of building a house and I am thinking (dreaming?) of doing some of the work myself, including kitchen cabinets and possibly trim work.
One wild cat in here is building a wooden entry door (possibly double door). First, I am a fairly experienced hobbyist woodworker with a reasonably well set of tools/machines (cabinet saw, 14 J/P, large router table, shaper, drum sander, and other tools).
Here are a few of the things I have made in the past:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?83398-My-latest-project&highlight=
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?136618-Cherry-chest-of-drawers&highlight=
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?133526-A-crib-for-the-first-baby&highlight=

I have built cabinets, furniture, etc. I usually research a lot before starting a thing so that I know what is involved and what not, but there are many factors in building an exterior door that I may not be familiar with. The builders here recommend against a wooden door in our climate (here in Alberta, Canada, with extreme cold). I have looked at many threads here as well as wealth of knowledge on woodweb.

It appears the best way of constructing them is stave core (instead of solid wood) where the stave is made out of pine or alder with finger joint pieces that are then face-glued. It's a time consuming process but I'm willing to do if that's the best way of doing it.
The house is facing east and the door will be setting back in a porch about 6' or so and won't be exposed to rain/water (at least not much) and the sun isn't an afternoon sun. The door will be 2.25" with raised panels. The width of the entry is about 10' so it could easily fit a double door or a wide single door with fixed sides. I haven't decided on how many panels or whether I want arch at the top or the easier rectangular look but here are some samples similar to what we have in mind:
http://www.eieihome.com/article/front-doors.html
http://www.glenviewdoors.com/Custom-Front-Door-Solid-Wood.php?GD=660-2SL-CST-Dark-MahoganyDoor&DoorSeries=Classic

I have a series of question that I am hoping more experienced people can help me decide.

Q1: wood choice, I've read Mahogany is a good choice as well as alder (but I'm not looking for a rustic look). Will Walnut, or Cherry, or Maple work fine?

Q2: for the stave core, should I make them myself in-house or should I buy some ready stuff that can be used for this purpose? If latter, where to find them?
If I should make them what species should I pick?

Q3: construction of panels. It seems it is better to have panels made out of two floating panels (inside/out) with a layer of insulation in between (instead of solid wood).
If floating panels is the way to go, what should be the typical thickness of each and the thickness of insulation? Some doors I see have a 3-ply panel (like the following)
that seem glued together:

http://www.galaxywindows.ca/products_Craftsmanship_of_Solid_Wood_Entry_Doors.p hp

What is the middle layer and are the outside layers glued to the middle? The edge of the panel seems to have very little wood. What are the typical thickness for the layers and the groove?

Q4: Joinery: I was thinking of traditional M/T joints for rails/stiles with 4-5" deep tenons. Will a loose tenon joiner work as well? My problem in this case will be making those deep mortises. I think I can get 3" deep but beyond becomes tricky/difficult as my tools are not capable of that. Comments/advice on this?

Q5: glass/windowss. It will most likely have some glass around the door jamb. Where is a good source of getting a glass panel and how to seal them in place? silicon?


I have more questions but hopefully I can decide first if I am capable of pulling this out by myself or should I simply get an steel door.
Thanks in advance.

[Rich Riddle]

Answer 1: If you use a stave core door, then those alternate woods work better than if solid core.

Answer 2. I like Homestead Doors because they use the same material for the stave core as the outside wood you see. You can see a very informative page that will show you much information here: http://www.door.cc/Doors-cross-sections.html

Unfortunately those are for interior doors. Here is a less informative but effective exterior door: http://www.wolflumber.com/stave-core-stiles

Answer 3. The thickness of the floating panel depends on the type of door you select. For instance a Craftsman look door will have a much different panel than most others. See the first link posted above. It will answer most of your questions.

Answer 4. Floating tenons don't work as well as regular tenons in my opinion, but the folks who use the Festool Domino will likely strongly disagree. I have a Powermatic mortiser because of the desire to achieve deeper mortises.

Answer 5. Are you meaning you want side lights on your door? Will they attach to the frame of the door you are making? Or are you asking something different?

[mreza Salav]

Thanks Rich for the answer.
For Q5: yes, I meant side lights like in the following:

http://www.nicksbuilding.com/Mahogany_Exterior_Doors/entry_doors_dbl_2SL/n6P%206068%202SL%20shan.jpg

[Scott Austin]

I haven't built to many doors, but i've installed a ton. I would advise against exterior double doors.

[mreza Salav]

I haven't built to many doors, but i've installed a ton. I would advise against exterior double doors.

Is it because it's hard to get a good weather seal at the joint or because of security?

[David Kumm]

If you are doing raised panels with a 1/4" tongue, two panels with 1/2" rigid insulation between will work with a traditional rail and stile set like the Freeborn. There are also Euro door and window sets that combine profiles for weatherstripping and air locks. I would apply 1/4" foam weatherstripping to both panels and fit the rigid insulation as tightly in the opening as possible. Air infiltration is what you want to avoid. Floating tenons 3" deep will give you plenty of strength. Mine are about 2.5" wide and doubled on the bottom if the stile goes over 7". I epoxy mine and make the mortises a little wider. Allows some adjustment and the epoxy that fills the excess is pretty structural. Sawdust in the epoxy adds strength and makes application easier. You will find the doors last much better than the finish if clear. Even with a little sun it is a never ending battle to keep a door looking good. Dave

[Kevin Jenness]

You are asking good questions. I could reply at length, but first I would suggest doing a search for "exterior doors" at Woodweb.com where you will find considerable information from better authorities than me. Pay particular attention to posts from David Sochar and Joe Calhoon, they have shared much valuable experience there. Door work has many complications, so find out all you can before committing to what is a serious project.

Honduras Mahogany is at the top, utile ,spanish cedar, khaya, quartered white oak, old growth cypress and various cedars are all reasonable woods for solid wood doors. Nix on maple, cherry ok, walnut hard to get the length in straight grained heartwood.

Solid wood doors require care in selection and milling of the material.

Fingerjointed pine cores are useful for randomizing defects, increasing stability and lowering the material cost of a labor intensive veneered construction. We have used South Shore Millwork in MA, but you must have a closer source.

Spline tenons 2 1/2" to 3" long have proven effective for me.

Solid wood panels at least 1/4" thick sandwiching foam cores works well. Total thickness depends on the frame edge profile. I would leave at least a 5/16" shoulder on a square edge frame.

Green Mountain Glass in Charlestown, NH is very reliable for narrow sightline and curved insulated glass units. I usually use 3m glazing tape in the rabbet and exterior removable stops secured with stainless brads or small screws. IGU seals don't last forever, so plan for replacement.

[Scott Austin]

Yes , I guess security could be a concern. I was more concerned about getting a good seal w/ 2 doors. You can pin the fixed door, but your you still could have warpage with both doors.

[David Kumm]

Second the referral to Joe Calhoon. He is a great guy and builds doors and windows for a living. Also holds schools demonstrating the use of shapers for that purpose. I've have good luck with vertical grain rails so i've never gone the stave core route. Dave

[mreza Salav]

Thanks a lot and keep the comments coming. I've done a ton of reading on woodweb (too bad I can't ask a question there).

For floating panels, I am thinking 7/8" panels with a 1/2" foam in between (total of 2.25") and having the edge of the panel at 3/8" or so think, so having a groove of 1.25".

- Should I use some form of adhesive to attach the three layers together (to prevent rattle) or let them all be loose?

- David, I don't quite get your air seal method when you say "I would apply 1/4" foam weatherstripping to both panels and fit the rigid insulation as tightly in the opening as possible."
What type of 1/4" foam weatherstripping and where? Would you finish both sides of each layer of panel before glue-up? (I think yes).
Sealing and making the panels air tight is extremely important in our climate as the tiniest amount of air leak will freeze up from inside.

Do you use West system epoxy?

Thanks Kevin. I'm not trying to cut costs as I'm doing this for myself. Would a stave core of the same wood work better?

[David Kumm]

Mreza, since the panels still need to expand and contract, the foam weatherstripping of3/16 or so applied to the four edges will still allow that but seal the out the air. The foam can fit tightly so it is a little oversized in comparison. If you glue the three at all I would just put a bead in the center as all you care about is making it easy to put together before the adhesive sets. I use West as it has a long open time. QS wood of the same species will work. If you don't like the grain you can always veneer that. If the panels are flat you could veneer your own ply and have more stability and still avoid the problems of store bought thin veneers. I would check into the codes on the rigid foam. Some of it requires drywall between the foam and the living space so you want something that is acceptable. I hate yo admit that that;s something not high on my list of things to worry about but it may be code. Dave

[Kevin Jenness]

A stave core of the same wood will be a bit more likely to stay straight and true, especially with more squirrely woods like Khaya, but solid frame and panel doors have been made successfully for hundreds of years prior to modern adhesives and "engineered wood" construction techniques. You will have to decide if you want a door made up of small sticks, glue and sheet veneer or solid timber. I am ambivalent on the issue. The exterior doors and storm doors in my house are solid Honduras Mahogany, and they have all stayed true.

I often use West System for assembly, but my storm doors, which take a fair bit of weather and are essentially unfinished, were glued up with Titebond 2, with no issues 15 years on.

[Rick Potter]

Go to the projects section, and enter ..interior door build. There is a step by step pictorial about how Sam Layton made his interior door. Not exterior, I know, but the basic steps are all pretty well documented, as well as advice he got from some great people.

I have seen these doors, they knock your socks off, and may give you some ideas. He is doing exterior next.

Don't tell him who sent you;).
Rick Potter

[Will Blick]

I have never built an exterior door, but am considering it as well. What is the reason to use an interior hardwood core, and a hardwood veneer shell? The obvious reason would be, if you only have veneer thicknesses for the exposed wood, or the exposed wood is ultra costly. Assuming, the two woods are equal price, is there any benefits of the stave concept. If movement is the issue, why not use plywood core, as it would be the most stable of all woods, specially when cut in 1" strips and their faces glued. ??

[mreza Salav]

Thanks again for the comments.

Dave, I didn't know about such code requirements but I "suspect" having a layer of wood over could satisfy that, I might just ignore it.

Will, my understanding is with stave core and in particular one made with smaller pieces that are finger joint together the chance of the long piece staying flat and straight is much higher as you are not at the mercy of one piece of wood (each individual piece won't have enough affect even if it has some internal stress or what not). Also, the pieces are face glued (so you get the effect of a QS piece) which means more stable again. The idea of using the same wood for stave is that the rate at which the veneer moves is the same as the core so again that helps. I don't think you can put too thick of a veneer on a plywood core; with stave core the veneer is usually 3/16" or so.

[Mel Fulks]

Will ,some woods such as flat sawn red oak are generally not trusted to stay straight . But the customer wants it ,so a stable core is used. Some stable woods might be deemed just too expensive,so a core is used ; this second case is often not used on a single door as the process is time consuming . If the chosen wood is affordable and stable most wont use a core.

[mreza Salav]

One more question: if the door has side lights (like the following) what type of joinery one should use in attaching them to the frame/jamb?

http://www.glenviewdoors.com/Custom-Front-Door-Solid-Wood.php?GD=660-2SL-CST-Dark-MahoganyDoor&DoorSeries=Classic

Given that the door is not attached to the jamb it's important that the sides/frames are very solid/secure as the door swings.
I am thinking a few 1/2" dowels at the top and bottom of the vertical frame that the hinges are attached to (sorry don't know the correct term)
plus having similar dowels all around the sidelight sections to tie them all together.
What is the right way to do it?

[Julie Moriarty]

About a year ago I was looking into replacing our front door with something I made. I learned a lot of things I didn't know, much of what has been said here. I took the idea to CAD and came up with this:
http://i867.photobucket.com/albums/ab233/jules42651/Entry%20door/EntryDoor-dim01-1.jpg
http://i867.photobucket.com/albums/ab233/jules42651/Entry%20door/EntryDoor-explode01-1.jpg

I used Freud's entry door router bit set and a video from Freud to come up with these plans. (Ignore the grain direction.)

The biggest issues presented by those with more knowledge than me were code issues, such as fire rating, wood movement, temperature and humidity differences between the interior and exterior of the door and racking forces placed on a heavy door. The tenons would have to be stout and practically through the stiles. There were some suggestions to create a separation between the interior and exterior panels and use that for insulation. I thought of something like 1/8" solid foam board in between. I eventually shelved the idea.

BTW, the door I modeled my plans from came from here: http://www.etodoors.com/shop/product/207

[Peter Quinn]

One more question: if the door has side lights (like the following) what type of joinery one should use in attaching them to the frame/jamb?

http://www.glenviewdoors.com/Custom-Front-Door-Solid-Wood.php?GD=660-2SL-CST-Dark-MahoganyDoor&DoorSeries=Classic

Given that the door is not attached to the jamb it's important that the sides/frames are very solid/secure as the door swings.
I am thinking a few 1/2" dowels at the top and bottom of the vertical frame that the hinges are attached to (sorry don't know the correct term)
plus having similar dowels all around the sidelight sections to tie them all together.
What is the right way to do it?


In the picture shown in your link the door's jamb legs are likely mortised into the threshold and jamb head to make a positive connection. I suppose you could do this with dowels or dominos too, but I'd consider making integral tenons there. The door jamb legs are double rabbited to provide a stop and weather gasket for both door and side lites. If the lites are tightly fitted they will stiffen up the jamb legs considerably too. At the bottom where jamb legs meet threshold the jamb legs need to follow the contour of the threshold in profile, which is always pitched to the outside to shed water and generally rises up to hold back water and provide a place for weather strip to land. I'd use at least 6/4 there, probably better off with 8/4 so you can flatten this as needed, but it can be done with 6/4 if it starts off almost flat to begin with. I've also seen the jamb set with side lites such that a three sided "box" made of 5/4 jamb legs and 4/4 "mullions" dadoed into each other separates the door from the lites. The "box" legs are set into the head and threshold just like your example above, but there is framing involved, usually a double stud pair on each side of the door. The threshold jogs around the framing, a strip is glued to the inside with a kerf and spline or tongue and groove for alignment post install. The whole entry slips over the framing from the outside, this gives the frame great rigidity for swinging heavy doors. This is more typical for entries with very tall/thick/heavy doors, though I've seen it spec'ed on 80" doors as well occasionally.

The only time I like pairs of doors on a residence is when they are all glass and the view is spectacular. Usually on the back or side. Otherwise, I prefer operational side lites like tall skinny casements, or fixed lites, or just some windows on each side of the door. You could swing a 42" door if the opening and facade call for that and you want to move large furniture in easily. A pair of doors on the front? Just not my favorite thing. Its like a pair of peacocks, too much strut, cant enjoy either. Castles are one exception, they can handle the visual weight. And barns, but few need to move beasts of burden into their foyers.

My advice? Draw the entire thing up in 3-D. Start with the jamb. Its the hardest part to make, the most critical and difficult details to conceptualize are contained there, it drives the whole project. The door is just a big heavy frame and panel system, like an over grown cabinet door, no rocket science there, just bulk. With anything that bridges inside to out the frame it resides in is the tough part and has to be right for things to work, so start there.

On the questions, I'll give you my best considered opinions, there are lots of ways to make doors and opinions/experiences/methods of work may vary.

Q1....Skip maple for exterior, the others are all fine if well sealed, cherry may move more than I trust for exterior work but has been used for doors successfully. Walnut definitely works. African mahogany is not all good, nor is south american true mahogany these days, you need good straight vertical grain, none of that ribbony interlaced business, thats a basket case and most likely will warp or defect at some point. So choose wisely, and if you don't have that kind of wisdom, go shopping! You can see examples of fine work at a home show or trade show, copy that. Plain jane wood works better than figured and funky for doors.


Q2...first off, stave core is not a forgone conclusion IMO. Lots of great solid doors, or three-five ply laminated solid door are in service and doing fine. If you have access to good 8/4 stock and the doors is under 7', solid should definitely be a consideration. That said I'm making a QSWO door next month for my new garage side entrance, I'm using african mahogany stave core with QSWO skins, I made up all the blanks this winter. Just because I wanted to try it. I've made lots of doors but never stave core. I had a thread on that last fall and learned a lot from Joe C and others. I set up a finger joint cutter on a shaper, made a ton of 22" long pieces roughly 1" thick, made up a press using a tortion box table and two long cauls, glued up strips length wise using tite bond III, glued the staves in a big sandwich, glued on the skins using PU in a vacuum bag. They have been aging in my shop, seem to be very stable, easy enough to accomplish. So For a single entry, I'd make them low tech style. Keep in mind stave core is more work or more money or both than solid, its never the cheaper way out IME.

Q3...The 2 1/4" doors I've been involved with had two panels sandwiched to 1/2" rigid foam, not a great R value, but better than nothing and stops thermal bridging, we used silicone and light clamping pressure to make the sandwich, milled up the panel profile post glue up, so make sandwich slightly over sized on length/width, square up and trim to size, raise panels.

Q4...For my house I'd skip dowels, but even those will work. Loose tenons are excellent, integral tenons are great but that rules out cope and stick for the small shop, plus you can buy a nice entry for the cost of an integral tenon cutter stack. There as lots of profile options that don't require a shaper set, panel mold or square edge. For speed and strength IMO nothing beats loose tenon cope and stick for the small shop. You want around 5"- 5 1/2" "flat" (stile width minus cope and stick profile and panel groove depth) on exterior door stiles, you want a tenon at least 2/3 the width if the door. So if you can get a 3"-3 1/2" tenon in the door, thats all you need, its not ever giving up, more is just more work.

Q5...Glass, check with your local glass distributor. I have 3 within miles of my shop. You pretty much get hosed on small quantities of insulated glass in custom sizes, but that is the nature of it. Most glass guys will be able to apprise you of local codes and trends, I've learned a lot from talking to them. 3M and others make tape for sealing glass, I've also used pure silicone which is highly effective and very painful to remove when/if a glass panel fogs up. I'm going to try the tape on the next door I make.

Hope this helps in some small way, good luck with your plans, sounds like an exciting project, I'm happy to answer any questions I'm able to.

[mreza Salav]

Many thanks for the advice Peter. Great answer there.
I have to re-read the last 4-5 lines of your first paragraph a few more times to digest it. Am I correct to understand that the "box" made of jamb legs is forming a "post" that will be between the door and lights to strengthen the structure to which door attaches? Essentially you have a double stud between the lights and the door and two jamb legs cover them from the sides and mullions cover the front/back. But won't this be too thick (front to back)? It seems it will be at least 5" thick (or more).
Also, when you say

I think I'm now pretty comfortable about the whole door thing (as you said it's a big/thick raised panel door). But I need to educate myself as what's the best way of making the jamb/sides
and how tie them together.


At the bottom where jamb legs meet threshold the jamb legs need to follow the contour of the threshold in profile, which is always pitched to the outside to shed water and generally rises up to hold back water and provide a place for weather strip to land. I'd use at least 6/4 there, probably better off with 8/4 so you can flatten this as needed, but it can be done with 6/4 if it starts off almost flat to begin with.

Good point, I had not paid attention to this.



I've also seen the jamb set with side lites such that a three sided "box" made of 5/4 jamb legs and 4/4 "mullions" dadoed into each other separates the door from the lites. The "box" legs are set into the head and threshold just like your example above, but there is framing involved, usually a double stud pair on each side of the door.


I have to re-read the last 4-5 lines of your first paragraph a few more times to digest it. Am I correct to understand that the "box" made of jamb legs is forming a "post" that will be between the door and lights to strengthen the structure to which door attaches? Essentially you have a double stud between the lights and the door and two jamb legs cover them from the sides and mullions cover the front/back. But won't this be too thick (front to back)? It seems it will be at least 5" thick (or more).



The threshold jogs around the framing, a strip is glued to the inside with a kerf and spline or tongue and groove for alignment post install. The whole entry slips over the framing from the outside, this gives the frame great rigidity for swinging heavy doors.


Not sure I understand this part.



My advice? Draw the entire thing up in 3-D. Start with the jamb. Its the hardest part to make, the most critical and difficult details to conceptualize are contained there, it drives the whole project. The door is just a big heavy frame and panel system, like an over grown cabinet door, no rocket science there, just bulk. With anything that bridges inside to out the frame it resides in is the tough part and has to be right for things to work, so start there.


Again very good advice. I think I'm now pretty comfortable about the whole door thing (as you said it's a big/thick raised panel door). But I need to educate myself as what's the best way of making the jamb/sides and how tie them together.





Q1....Skip maple for exterior, the others are all fine if well sealed, cherry may move more than I trust for exterior work but has been used for doors successfully. Walnut definitely works. African mahogany is not all good, nor is south american true mahogany these days, you need good straight vertical grain, none of that ribbony interlaced business, thats a basket case and most likely will warp or defect at some point. So choose wisely, and if you don't have that kind of wisdom, go shopping! You can see examples of fine work at a home show or trade show, copy that. Plain jane wood works better than figured and funky for doors.


I didn't like maple but was seriously considering Cherry and Walnut. My wife and I both love walnut and if that is a wood that works fine for this purpose very likely we choose this. Mahogany is something I can get here but not as plentiful.



Q3...The 2 1/4" doors I've been involved with had two panels sandwiched to 1/2" rigid foam, not a great R value, but better than nothing and stops thermal bridging, we used silicone and light clamping pressure to make the sandwich, milled up the panel profile post glue up, so make sandwich slightly over sized on length/width, square up and trim to size, raise panels.


Good advice again here, I like the idea of doing it this way, but wouldn't it be better to have even the back of the panels (that face the foam) finished?
that would mean making the panels and finishing them and then using silicone to attach them to the foam. I always thought finishing all sides are better than only one side.




Hope this helps in some small way, good luck with your plans, sounds like an exciting project, I'm happy to answer any questions I'm able to.

It has been VERY helpful and I greatly appreciate it.

[Peter Quinn]

Many thanks for the advice Peter. Great answer there.
I have to re-read the last 4-5 lines of your first paragraph a few more times to digest it. Am I correct to understand that the "box" made of jamb legs is forming a "post" that will be between the door and lights to strengthen the structure to which door attaches? Essentially you have a double stud between the lights and the door and two jamb legs cover them from the sides and mullions cover the front/back. But won't this be too thick (front to back)? It seems it will be at least 5" thick (or more).

Essentially its a 3 piece sill, a 3 sided box on each side of the door (which slips over the stud pair, then the fourth side is field applied, the decorative mullions cover the joints like regular casing), then a regular jamb leg on each outside edge to form the second jamb leg for the lites. As you've probably guessed by now it takes 3-5 guys to move this type of thing when done and a pretty big space to build it.

I've seen the sills done two ways. One is a single long sill that is notched on a panel saw, clamped to the fence, 16" blade full up, to form the gap which will go around the stud pair. So you have 30" give or take, a notch, 45" give or take, another notch, another sill under the side lite. The 3 sided boxes are applied, opening to the inside, they wrap these notches, the unit gets slid over the studs, the inside gets cased out to cover the fourth side of the box. Alternatively, we've made each unit separately, so each lite is independent, the door frame is independent, but rabbits are let into the back side of the jamb legs, and a groove is let into the outside edge of each sill. Then the units are joined either on the bench or in the field, first left to right, glued and clamped or screwed (pocket screws could work well there), then the "nosing" is applied, glued and clamped. This is easier IMO in the shop, but it has been done on site, essentially the entire unit is finish assembled on saw horses right in front of the opening. The whole point of the monolithic build is the "one piece look". It has to appear that a single threshold connects the entire unit interior and exterior. Start looking closely at cheaper factory units built of separate parts and often you will find the lites and door are three individual units, with gaps between, its ok but nothing like a monolithic build. Monolithic is heavy though, no way to finish assembly and install alone, takes lots of help. Its the best for water shed, though properly flashed individual units should work fine too.

As an alternative to the "stud pairs and notched sill" we've done boxes with four sides blocked out on the inside for strength. I think you figured out that a 3 sided box wrapped around a pair of studs requires a certain "width", something around 6 1/2" per side, that adds visual weight. If the door is 2 1/2" thick QSWO with 3/4" glass and leaded glass and heavy brass hardware....well you need all the strength you can get to keep things straight. On a large unit that sits on a formal home with lots of trim it looks perfectly normal. If the style calls for something simpler but you require more strength than a single jamb leg could provide, the box approach is worth considering. Its generally wider than a single board, around 3"-4", it basically a vertical torsion beam, it gives you a nice place to run a door bell! The jamb leg to sill connection is the same as a normal door, just that its doubled. I've also seen just solid 10/4 or 12/4 jamb legs used, and those are quite strong, PIA to handle every step of the way, difficult to scribe the jamb legs to the sill.....not my preferred option. But some architects love large boards... they are so much easier to draw.:rolleyes:

We prime the back side of the panel on the sandwich, just white paint, even on walnut! Agreed they shouldn't be raw, in a perfect world the would be sealed on the back the same as the front, so that might be an option. I haven't done or seen lots of those sandwich panels, if you pre finish you will have to pay particular attention that the two skins are perfectly aligned. Maybe a clamping frame screwed to plywood or something, like a shop made frame clamp. Or a very square "L" screwed to a plywood base to clamp to while things set up.

[mreza Salav]

Thanks again Peter for the detailed respond. I'll have to dig into this whole frame/jamb different ways of building a little bit more but what you suggest seems like a very sound way of building it.

[David Kumm]

Mreza, not exactly on topic, but when building the door and side light set up, I'd try to eliminate any molding like details that in the future look like they would be difficult to scrape or refinish. The thing I hate most about my exterior wood door is trying to get the flaking varnish off the rounded or more intricate profiles. Doesn't really add much to the look but a total pain for the rest of my life. Had I the width, I would build the door as a separate unit with two sidelights that could be removed without disrupting the door. Framed out traditionally with 2x6 or whatever in between. Even if I jointed the double 2x down to something a little narrower or used micro lam or something to be stiff but not too thick. Builders like combined units as they install more quickly but I'd take separates. Dave

[Peter Quinn]

Mreza, not exactly on topic, but when building the door and side light set up, I'd try to eliminate any molding like details that in the future look like they would be difficult to scrape or refinish. The thing I hate most about my exterior wood door is trying to get the flaking varnish off the rounded or more intricate profiles. Doesn't really add much to the look but a total pain for the rest of my life. Had I the width, I would build the door as a separate unit with two sidelights that could be removed without disrupting the door. Framed out traditionally with 2x6 or whatever in between. Even if I jointed the double 2x down to something a little narrower or used micro lam or something to be stiff but not too thick. Builders like combined units as they install more quickly but I'd take separates. Dave


I'm curious what finish schedule you are using David? When friends ask what kind of door they should get, I tell them "Fiberglass!" If they insist on wood.....paint is nice. If they insist on clear wood I suggest they invest in a porch or serious portico first. I'm going to have to finish a door this summer, its really the part I know the very least about, I want a clear finish. I'm thinking of fuming the white oak, clear epoxy sealer, epifanes marine varnish. Not sure where that will leave me in several years.

[David Kumm]

I'm curious what finish schedule you are using David? When friends ask what kind of door they should get, I tell them "Fiberglass!" If they insist on wood.....paint is nice. If they insist on clear wood I suggest they invest in a porch or serious portico first. I'm going to have to finish a door this summer, its really the part I know the very least about, I want a clear finish. I'm thinking of fuming the white oak, clear epoxy sealer, epifanes marine varnish. Not sure where that will leave me in several years.

After 15 years the finish schedule is making the door look less crappy but the ship has sailed for it ever looking like new. Marine varnish with phenolic rezin is what I use but if I was ambitious enough to coat it twice a year I'd be tempted to put about 20 coats of wipe on wipe off thinned varnish and then renew it twice a year with a new coat. Flies in the face of every opinion I've ever read but the finish cracking makes for a horrible experience and it is the UV rather than the water that bothers mine the most. Only the bottom half of the door gets sunlight for about 1/2 of the year but that is where all the damage occurs. I agree that fibreglass would now be my choice. I've wondered if a wood door on the inside with a fibreglass skin on the outside couldn't be manufactured as it is the look from the inside that you live with the longest. Dave

[mreza Salav]

A friend who spent almost $20k for an entry door of his house 3 years ago says he would use fiberglass if he was to start over. Two builders who I am considering to build my house are both suggesting a fiberglass over wood (and this is not a cheap house). So if you guys are saying your preference would be fiberglass over wood then that gives me second thoughts...
Isn't there really a finish that would last 10 years or so before needing to refinish it?!

[Peter Quinn]

We have mahogany doors at work that have been in service for almost 20 years. They get coated every two years or so with Messemers penetrating uv blocking oil, it's a real natural matte looking finish, not really formal like a freshly varnished door, but it never cracks, peels or outright fails. It just fades, you sponge it quickly and recoat. That seems to be the two options...penetrating oil which protects less but repairs easier, or a film finish which protects more but is painful to repair. It has been suggested you have to treat a door like your teeth, regular maintenance before a coating failure makes life easier than scraping off a failed coating, but few ever really do that. The sun wins every time.

[Larry Edgerton]

A friend who spent almost $20k for an entry door of his house 3 years ago says he would use fiberglass if he was to start over. Two builders who I am considering to build my house are both suggesting a fiberglass over wood (and this is not a cheap house). So if you guys are saying your preference would be fiberglass over wood then that gives me second thoughts...
Isn't there really a finish that would last 10 years or so before needing to refinish it?!

Some very good advice here. On the finish thing, The porch is the best suggestion. If you are building the house new I would work that into the plan. The best I have been able to manage just out in the elements was ten years using automotive clear coat, and involved and fairly expensive process.

For commercial doors I have been making them with an Appleply core, basically making two thin one sided doors and laminating them to each side of the ply. I always use West System epoxy and have had no failures with this system and allows different finishes on each side such as paint on the outside and varnish on the inside.

I also agree with David on keeping outside details simple.

As usual Peter manages to compress a book on door making into a few paragraphs, always good solid advise from him. If Peter wrote a book, I would buy it.

Larry

[mreza Salav]

I went to some of the dealers of doors here in our town that supply wood/fiberglass/metal doors. A wood door in the size/style we want runs in the range of $15-20k and they are just
solid door (no engineered core or multiple ply panels). Fiberglass is not far behind at around $10-15k, which I find surprising (I thought it would be a lot cheaper than wood).
One of the dealers showed how a 26" wide panel on one of the wood doors in his showroom had cracked in the middle and the shrinkage had left a nasty 1/4" or so unfinished food
around the panel.
I figure the cost of material for me to build should be around $2-3k (have to get exact quotes for the glass units for lites). I am not too concerned if I can build it to my satisfaction, but I am concerned about longevity of the finish and how much maintenance it would need. This is a new house we are building (planing stage right now).

[Andrew Joiner]

We have mahogany doors at work that have been in service for almost 20 years. They get coated every two years or so with Messemers penetrating uv blocking oil, it's a real natural matte looking finish, not really formal like a freshly varnished door, but it never cracks, peels or outright fails. It just fades, you sponge it quickly and recoat. That seems to be the two options...penetrating oil which protects less but repairs easier, or a film finish which protects more but is painful to repair. It has been suggested you have to treat a door like your teeth, regular maintenance before a coating failure makes life easier than scraping off a failed coating, but few ever really do that. The sun wins every time.

Peter, Your doors at work, are they protected from rain and sun? That's great to get 2 years from an oil finish. Do they get re-oiled when they start to grey? Do the doors get Messmer's natural or red oil?

[Mark Bolton]

Isn't there really a finish that would last 10 years or so before needing to refinish it?!

WHOLLY COW.. That would be a dream.. I tried to talk a recent major project into fiberglass but real wood was the only option for the front door. It will be re-coated before they move in. The timeline of a major custom home construction alone can exceed time the finish will last. We included a re-coat in the quote for a mahogany entry with side lites and arch and it will definitely need it before the final.

[Larry Edgerton]

Peter, Your doors at work, are they protected from rain and sun? That's great to get 2 years from an oil finish. Do they get re-oiled when they start to grey? Do the doors get Messmer's natural or red oil?

The old adage with oil is once a day for a week, once a week for a month, once a month for a year, and once a year for the rest of your life. The old German cabinetmaker I apprenticed under always used that to talk people into something else.

Larry

[Peter Quinn]

Peter, Your doors at work, are they protected from rain and sun? That's great to get 2 years from an oil finish. Do they get re-oiled when they start to grey? Do the doors get Messmer's natural or red oil?

I should state first that they are not rigorously maintained aesthetically, they usually get oiled when something else is getting oiled or they really need it. We use the natural...the mahogany colored oil looks more red/ orange than any mahogany I've seen. They sit under a generous soffit that's just over 9' above floor height, so that acts as a good sun block. They are on the west side of the building, so afternoon and setting sun only. If it were in direct sun I'd say it would be an annual application. Messers is the best penetrating oil I've seen as far as longevity, some serious iron oxide pigments even in the 'clear', it's pretty brick red for a clear. The mahogany is just weird on actual mahogany, looks more like osssage orange to me! Yes, the doors get re oiled when they start to look very tired, sometimes 3 years. They take a light pad sand, one coat of oil for maintenance, more than that just gets gummy. Oh, and the smell is nauseating, best done outside by somebody else....not sure I'd ever want to finish the inside of the door with this stuff. Luckily the inside lasts a lot longer.

Larrys schedule is the one I was taught for pure linseed oil or tung oil finishes, but I think Messers has some resins in it that act as sealers, if you go beyond 2 coats initially it gets tacky and won't dry properly, big mess. Point is what ever you use a wood door is a life long commitment that will take more or less of your time depending on the coating, but always more than most people would rather spend. I've turned down a few door job offers because I couldn't offer any warranty due to location, and they were replacements for failures, which lets me know where my work would be headed.

[Andrew Joiner]

Thanks Peter. Your concise feedback is important to me. I might test some of the Messmer's oil on some outdoor stuff.

[mreza Salav]

I have ordered most of my hardware, and have drawn up my plans for the door. I'd like to run my plan by you and get
your opinion (Peter, Dave, others) before starting the build.

Thickness will be 2.25" and 8' tall with two side lites (no transom as there will be a big windows above it).
The siles AND rails of the door are going to be stave core. The rest (side lites, etc) I will make from 3 lamination.

The door is 42" wide with 4 panel and since the decorative side lite glass is 8"x48" the top panels are going to be 48" in height (47" visible).
Stiles and the top rail of the door are 6" wide on the face (plus the 1/2" profile). Middle rail is 7" on the face, and the bottom rail is 10".
Top panels are 13"x48" (12"x47" visible) and bottom panel 13"x26" (12"x25" visible). The mullions are 4" wide (on face again).

Side lites: rails are the same width as the door (6", 7", 10" from top to bottom) and the stiles are 3" on the face (3.5" with the profile).

The jambs will be 1.5" or 1.75" thick (milled from 8/4 stock), same for the header and the threshold that I will make (one piece).
I have decided to have "posts/columns" between the door and the side lites. Basically, I'll make a 4-sided box out of 1.75" thick material, plus a 1/2 cylinder fluted column that
will be applied on the outside of this box (for decorative appeal). The whole post will be 5.5" wide. I might add a middle filler in the box to make it stronger (or I don't need it?).
Once each post is secured (on site) to the header and threshold I suppose this will be strong enough to have the hinges/door hung on it.
The posts and jambs will be secured to the header and threshold with multiple 3/4" thick dowels.
The posts, jambs, header, and threshold will have a rabbet into which the side lites will fit tightly and will be glued. So this should add to the strength of the
whole unit as now all 8 pieces (2 side lite units, 2 posts, 2 jambs, header, and threshold are all glued/doweled together).

The width of the whole unit will be jambs (2*1.75") + side lites (2* 14) + posts (2* 5.5) + door (42") - rabbets for side lites/door (6*0.5) = 81.5"

My plan is to build the door and side lites and all other pieces in my shop and assemble the frame on site.
Here is a simple drawing of it in sketch up:

266732266731


Does this plan, and in particular the way posts are going to be built and attached to the header/threshold/side-lites good?

any comments/suggestions?

[mreza Salav]

I have started the project and have a quick question: I was doing resawing veneers today for the stave core. My initial intention was to have 3/16" or so thick veneers but ended up with about 5/32" after sending them through drum sander (a few too many times I guess). Will 5/32" veneer (of the same material of core) be Ok? I think so, just would like to get confirmation before building the rest.

[Jeff Duncan]

Yes that will be fine. In reality you want thinner faces as if they're too thick they could "pull" the staves. Somewhere right around 1/8" is a good target to shoot for, 3/16" might be a little on the thick side IMHO.

good luck,
JeffD

[Peter Quinn]

I don't think the ultimate thickness of the veneers is that critical, somewhere between 1/8"-3/16" is typical, I've seen 1/16", way too thin for door skins IMO, and I've only seen them on doors that had failed which reinforces my opinion. I've heard of guys gluing on 1/4" then going through a wide belt to skinny the blanks, or even over the jointer and planer. It's not my preference intuitavitely, but I've only done one stave core to date, so I'm no expert there. So I think you are fine on the skins. The door plans look real good, design makes sense to me, I'm hoping to take a closer look on the big screen at home later, on road presently.

[mreza Salav]

Thanks, the veneer is half way between 1/8" and 3/16". I've prepared the posts and most of the work on jambs. Will be starting the side lites and hopefully the stave core of the doors.
Will start a new thread with progress pics.

[jack forsberg]

Mo i have found this PDF to be useful information

http://www.amherstwoodworking.com/downloads/DoorWorkshopBook.pdf

http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad111/tool613/wadkin/stavecore_zps09c476ab.jpg (http://s927.photobucket.com/user/tool613/media/wadkin/stavecore_zps09c476ab.jpg.html)

jack
English machines

[Kelvin Taylor]

It's great that you do your job yourself but builders have lot of experience in this sort of works, so you should follow them. You can put Japanese wooden door as they have minimum effect on any climate. Look online for Japanese door and window collections. You can also consider Japanese screen Bethesda MD (https://plus.google.com/108755519750170027826/about?hl=en), as they have huge collection.