Pure Indulgence - Waiting for Customs

[David Weaver]

As sort of a last indulgence (until the next one, I guess), one of the other enablers on here mentioned to me that he had dug up a few chisels made by one of the very highly respected tokyo makers who is now deceased. Kiyotada. That name won't ring a bell with most people because it's not pitched by japan woodworker or imported by harima enterprises.

At any rate, said enabler sent me one at cost (which I'm thankful for), and it's probably sitting in a bin at JFK at this point (japan post sends everything fast, even economy. Customs JFK isn't always so fast about getting it into the USPS here).

It is one of these linked (a single chisel, not the set), and I definitely did not order it from So, as it's hard to even get a hold of So, #1, and #2, so's pricing policies and my buying policies don't ever have any overlap.

http://www.japan-tool.com/nomi/Kiyotada_Tataki/Kiyotada_Tataki.html

So (no pun intended), what's the big deal about tokyo smiths? There were at least at one point, smiths in tokyo who were very competent with white #1 steel. If chisels are made properly with it, it's probably unmatched by anything for edge holding. if they aren't, then they are no better than run of the mill white #2 chisels that cost about $60, and maybe worse. I have an imai timber framer that's definitely no better than a white #2 chisel, which makes it a pain to use. It is something you would use only on large mortises, anyway (like chopping out a plane). Imai is well known as a good smith of white steel, so it's likely that I was just unlucky.

I don't have any fear that I'm encouraging someone to go buy extremely expensive tokyo smith tools if it arrives and it really is superb, because all of the tokyo smiths are deceased or retired.

But it will add an interesting point of reference, because Kiyotada is a known maker who was able to produce extremely hard chisels that are not brittle. And because of the context that there are a lot of new steels that are being promoted as ultimate chisel steels, I'm not sure I believe that any of them are better than a top of the line carbon steel chisel. It does satisfy a curiosity of mine, to see what the best of the best work really is. Work that isn't intended to be produced several thousand at a time, and work that isn't designed with thoughts about supply volume, etc.

I don't doubt that very few people are interested in this kind of stuff, but for the few that are, I can hardly resist indulging us.

[Chris Griggs]

When you get it I want to see some pics of you using it to chop out a plane mortise.

[Rick Fisher]

Love this post. I have Tasai Mokume paring chisels with Ebony handles. 3 chisels = $1500 USD ..

I love that Japanese chisels are known by the smith and not the brand ..

Hope you do a full report when they arrive .. I am jealous and curious ..

[Chris Griggs]

Love this post. I have Tasai Mokume paring chisels with Ebony handles. 3 chisels = $1500 USD ..

I love that Japanese chisels are known by the smith and not the brand ..

Hope you do a full report when they arrive .. I am jealous and curious ..

Dang it ...your and Dave's stupid posts just made me antsy to get my (no where near as pricey but still very cool) Koyamaichi parers....I have to wait for them to be made (which I knew when I ordered them, and of course, made to order is pretty cool), but that doesn't make waiting any easier.

I remember when you got your Tasai's, didn't they get tied up in customs for like 3 months....that musta sucked....at least once mine are made they're likely to arrive pretty quickly.

[David Weaver]

I'll do that (mortise video).

there was a video posted on WC last year, mahogany masterpieces. There was a now-deceased dai maker in the video at the very end of one of the segments taking enormous amounts of macassar ebony out of a dai with a gigantic hammer. I can't find the video now. He was clearly not using something sold for $60 to the export market.

I have never struck anything short of a splitting wedge hard enough to remove wood the speed he did. And I don't have a flat faced hammer big enough to do it now.

Imagine that most of the kiyotada stuff is set aside if it's found new now, but I don't intend to ever buy any tool with that kind of intention.

[Chris Griggs]

....I'm encouraging someone to go buy ....extremely expensive... tools


Dave, I think you had a typo in your original post. I edited above to say what I think you meant to say.

:D

[Chris Griggs]

I'll do that (mortise video).

there was a video posted on WC last year, mahogany masterpieces. There was a now-deceased dai maker in the video at the very end of one of the segments taking enormous amounts of macassar ebony out of a dai with a gigantic hammer. I can't find the video now. He was clearly not using something sold for $60 to the export market.

I have never struck anything short of a splitting wedge hard enough to remove wood the speed he did. And I don't have a flat faced hammer big enough to do it now.

Imagine that most of the kiyotada stuff is set aside if it's found new now, but I don't intend to ever buy any tool with that kind of intention.

Sweet! I look forward to your video.

I think I saw that video you mentioned...he made it look sooo easy!

[David Weaver]

Love this post. I have Tasai Mokume paring chisels with Ebony handles. 3 chisels = $1500 USD ..

I love that Japanese chisels are known by the smith and not the brand ..

Hope you do a full report when they arrive .. I am jealous and curious ..

Tasai is one of the few left where a serious tool dealer will tell you that his chisels are still quality. In this case, said enabler was able to find kiyotadas similar to what tasai's stripped down stuff costs.

They are definitely different style, the one I can get my dirty fingers on is very nondescript like the ones in so's picture.

[David Weaver]

Sweet!

I think I saw that video you mentioned...he made it look sooo easy!

If anyone knows where that video went, I'd be curious to see it. I know mark hennebury was hosting it off of his site, but I can't find it.

[Rick Fisher]

Good for you Dave.. Use the chisels. I think if your first love is tools, you keep the chisels new.. if your first love is woodworking, you use the chisels.

I am really curious. I want a set of Bench chisels in the future and had planned on Tasai or Kuneki .. but I am really interested in yours .. I don't have as much knowledge as you, never heard of this fella.. but you peaked my interest.. lol

[Mel Fulks]

Looking forward to your review of the chisel,David. Wholesome vicarious fun!

[David Weaver]

I found it. Literally the last minute of this video. Look at the hammer :eek: Makes my shoulder ache just watching it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KaeQxEr30Q&feature=youtu.be

The first maker is ouchi, the last maker is the dai maker (hisao tanaka). I can't tell who the plane iron maker is in the middle (just heard miyamoto masao).

I've never heard of the plane iron maker, I'm sure the stuff is good, but I do recall also that the maker of the video was selling the tools, too, so finest might have meant "finest" the maker of the video was selling. (a little google work does confirm that he's well regarded).

The whole video is excellent, and gives you a sense that the makers are not sitting around on their duffs scheming how they can get westerners to buy falsely advertised machine made tools.

[Chris Griggs]

Holy cow! No, that's not the one I saw, but that is really cool. I can't believe how quickly easily he knocks those chunks of wood out. Thanks for finding that.

[David Weaver]

All of the guys do precise work at speed. Something we don't see a lot of. Around 42 minutes or so, the dai maker comes in and though there's otherwise not a lot of interesting stuff going on as he cleans up the blocks of wood, it's cool to see how quickly he handles the dais. In and out of clamping, check, back in the clamp, plane, check...etc.

When stan covington was describing precision and checking and testing yourself for speed and accuracy (the stuff that he took such a browbeating over), I'd imagine that this is what he had in mind.

[Charlie Stanford]

As sort of a last indulgence (until the next one, I guess), one of the other enablers on here mentioned to me that he had dug up a few chisels made by one of the very highly respected tokyo makers who is now deceased. Kiyotada. That name won't ring a bell with most people because it's not pitched by japan woodworker or imported by harima enterprises.

At any rate, said enabler sent me one at cost (which I'm thankful for), and it's probably sitting in a bin at JFK at this point (japan post sends everything fast, even economy. Customs JFK isn't always so fast about getting it into the USPS here).

It is one of these linked (a single chisel, not the set), and I definitely did not order it from So, as it's hard to even get a hold of So, #1, and #2, so's pricing policies and my buying policies don't ever have any overlap.

http://www.japan-tool.com/nomi/Kiyotada_Tataki/Kiyotada_Tataki.html

So (no pun intended), what's the big deal about tokyo smiths? There were at least at one point, smiths in tokyo who were very competent with white #1 steel. If chisels are made properly with it, it's probably unmatched by anything for edge holding. if they aren't, then they are no better than run of the mill white #2 chisels that cost about $60, and maybe worse. I have an imai timber framer that's definitely no better than a white #2 chisel, which makes it a pain to use. It is something you would use only on large mortises, anyway (like chopping out a plane). Imai is well known as a good smith of white steel, so it's likely that I was just unlucky.

I don't have any fear that I'm encouraging someone to go buy extremely expensive tokyo smith tools if it arrives and it really is superb, because all of the tokyo smiths are deceased or retired.

But it will add an interesting point of reference, because Kiyotada is a known maker who was able to produce extremely hard chisels that are not brittle. And because of the context that there are a lot of new steels that are being promoted as ultimate chisel steels, I'm not sure I believe that any of them are better than a top of the line carbon steel chisel. It does satisfy a curiosity of mine, to see what the best of the best work really is. Work that isn't intended to be produced several thousand at a time, and work that isn't designed with thoughts about supply volume, etc.

I don't doubt that very few people are interested in this kind of stuff, but for the few that are, I can hardly resist indulging us.

Is it metallurgically possible for brittleness to not vary directly with hardness? I ask this seriously, not as a barb at you or anybody else.

[David Weaver]

It's more of a maker to maker comparison.

if two makers provide chisels of white #1, maker A might make a chisel that is far less prone to chipping than maker B, given both make chisels of the same hardness.

If maker A made two chisels with the exact same process but made one three points less hard than the other, then all else being equal, the harder chisel will naturally be more brittle.

I don't have any delusions that the makers are doing something magical, but rather it's a matter of knowledge and care.

An example that I can think of from much more mundane chisels that I've used is matsumura (which might be an export only brand) and koyamaichi (who is also sold here, but who is well regarded in japan). Matsumura chisels are certainly servicable (if you used them in a vaccuum you'd be very pleased), but the koyamaichi chisels are both harder and less prone to chipping. They are both made of white #2, which for all practical purposes is a very plain steel in the 1.1-1.2% carbon range or so.

[Mel Fulks]

David, I hope you understand you you will also have to check to see if the chisels he made on Mondays and Fridays are as good as the others.

[Stuart Tierney]

Is it metallurgically possible for brittleness to not vary directly with hardness? I ask this seriously, not as a barb at you or anybody else.

Yes.

Stu.

(I need to make this up to 10 letters, so add this addendum to satisfy that requirement.)

[Chris Griggs]

Yes.

Stu.

(I need to make this up to 10 letters, so add this addendum to satisfy that requirement.)

Jeez Stu! What time is it in Japan? Do you ever sleep?

[David Weaver]

David, I hope you understand you you will also have to check to see if the chisels he made on Mondays and Fridays are as good as the others.

I hope not. Someone else can do it with a kickstarter. One is enough for me to satisfy curiosity. I'm otherwise too careless and too hard on tools to have tools at that level.

It's not exorbitantly expensive for what it is, but it's above my pay grade in general.

[David Weaver]

(stu is not the enabler, in case anyone is jumping to conclusions).

[Charlie Stanford]

Yes.

Stu.

(I need to make this up to 10 letters, so add this addendum to satisfy that requirement.)


That's a remarkable achievement that nobody else seems able to replicate.

[Chris Griggs]

It's more of a maker to maker comparison.

if two makers provide chisels of white #1, maker A might make a chisel that is far less prone to chipping than maker B, given both make chisels of the same hardness.

If maker A made two chisels with the exact same process but made one three points less hard than the other, then all else being equal, the harder chisel will naturally be more brittle.


Doesn't it have a lot to do with how they back it, what they back it with, and how thick or thin they do/are able to make the harder exterior steel? As in if all things were equal in terms of the metallurgy/hardness of the exterior hardened steel couldn't the strength/brittleness/toughness be altered by the skill that is forming and laminating it the soft backing/the choice of backing?

[Eric DeSilva]

Remarkable video in a number of respects--the simplicity of his work space when he is handling the dais, the economy of movement. I wonder if you counted the number of hammer strikes per dai how well it would correlate. Bet he's done this so many times it is nearly exactly the same motions.

[David Weaver]

I'm sure it would be very similar within respective wood types. There a video of inomoto on youtube where he mentions that he had to practice the angles for the dai for some number of months (6?) before they were basically reflex.

The other thing to think about is that hisao is 76 years old in that video. I'm 36...I wouldn't want to swing that hammer. What are people in the US doing at 76? (presume most japanese folks at 76 are not swinging hammers, either). Tanaka looks almost exactly like my grandfather, same proportions. At 76, my grandfather was cutting and splitting wood full time after retiring from farming in his late 60s, maybe. Maybe the only person I know who at Tanaka's age was still doing things like that. Safe to say the cutting and splitting wasn't near as precise.

[Jim Koepke]

I found it. Literally the last minute of this video. Look at the hammer Makes my shoulder ache just watching it.

Great video explains why my mortises are not great.

I never adjust my socks before swinging the mallet.

jtk

[David Weaver]

Perfect timing. Came home to find a package from japan.

Below is a picture of three chisels, for scale. The one on the left is an iyoroi mokume, which is my bench chisel set - shown for scale against the timber mortisers. In the middle is the Kiyotada and on the right is the Imai chisel.

The kiyotada chisel is about 18mm and the imai is 24. Apologies for the bad photo, I have no well lit place to take pictures (raining outside), and no tripods set up right now.

I might get the kiyotada set up this weekend, but I have a bunch of other stuff to do. I never set the hoop properly on the imai, but will probably do that to sell it on peebay.

262052

[Chris Griggs]

Perfect timing. Came home to find a package from japan.

Below is a picture of three chisels, for scale. The one on the left is an iyoroi mokume, which is my bench chisel set - shown for scale against the timber mortisers. In the middle is the Kiyotada and on the right is the Imai chisel.

The kiyotada chisel is about 18mm and the imai is 24. Apologies for the bad photo, I have no well lit place to take pictures (raining outside), and no tripods set up right now.

I might get the kiyotada set up this weekend, but I have a bunch of other stuff to do. I never set the hoop properly on the imai, but will probably do that to sell it on peebay.

262052


Excellent!

[Stanley Covington]

Here is a translation of a portion of webpage article about Mr. Shimamura, the smith that made the chisel languishing in customs David mentioned. The article was written by a Mr. Suzuki, the Owner/proprietor of a tool shop in Tokyo who has written several books about the history of Japanese tools. The link to the page is below, but note that the pictures are not of Mr. Shimamura's products.

http://www.misyuku-suzuki-kanamonoten.com/nomikajimeijin2.html

"The story is told that Mr. Kosuke Iwasaki of Sanjo City in Niigata Prefecture, at one time known as the foremost researcher of steel (in Japan), evaluated chisels made by four Tokyo master chisel blacksmiths and recommended the Kiyotada brand chisel, concluding that since Tokyo produces the best chisels in Japan, Kiyotada is therefore the genuine best chisel in Japan."

Here is a link to a set of Kiyotada butt chisels owned and setup by Ichiro Tsuchida. The box/tray is a cool design. http://www012.upp.so-net.ne.jp/nakano_koubou/sub5.html

The smith's name is Kosaburo Shimamura, and passed away some years ago. He worked with his son for many years, but his son was badly injured in a traffic accident and was unable to succeed his father.

When I was working for a construction company in Tokyo, Mr. Shimamura was healthy and producing Kiyotada brand chisels. I was unhappy with the Japanese chisels I had, and needed a heavy duty tataki nomi for some timber work, so I asked some old boys at work what they used. One old carpenter in his 70's swore by his Kiyotada chisels, and a couple of other guys said they were envious of them. At the time, Shimamura's products were approximately double the price of most of his competitors that produced chisels intended for serious work (vs. the decorative, fragile, and overpriced stuff collectors lke). The high price was almost impossible to justify at first, but after buying and using an 8 bu (.95") tataki nomi, I found Shimamura's products to be everything the professional carpenters that recommended them said they were. Mr. Shimamura did not do produce on spec, but only to order. Over the years I had him make a set of butt and mortise chisels for me, as well as parers and a couple of kote chisels. I currently own over 40 Kiyotada brand chisels, not to mention kiridashi kogatana and various styles of marking knives, all made from White 1 steel. None of them are fancy, nor are they finished with the exquisite perfection of an Ichihiro chisel (Hidari no Ichihiro, another famous Tokyo blacksmith) but without exception they cut, and hold an edge, like no other chisel I have experienced.

I look forward to reading David's report here on SC.

Stan

[David Weaver]

I guess it shouldn't be a surprise now that stan is the enabler.

Stan, is the one of the knives you mentioned the one you're using to bevel the mild steel ring in the pictures you sent me?

[Winton Applegate]

I don't doubt that very few people are interested in this kind of stuff, but for the few that are, I can hardly resist indulging us.

Count me in !
I am very interested in this caliber of cutting tool. I have never come across a blade that is too hard. I have a few high end cutting tools from Japan and am very pleased to have them.
My idea of tempering for one of these tools is the maker puts the chisel across the room from a lit candle.
: )
and then just be careful using it.

[Stanley Covington]

I guess it shouldn't be a surprise now that stan is the enabler.

Stan, is the one of the knives you mentioned the one you're using to bevel the mild steel ring in the pictures you sent me?

No, the knife in the picture is an inexpensive, but well forged one, from a smith in Niigata, brand named "Yoshitaka." Shaving mild steel is easily done with a good knife, but a Kiyotada-level knife is hardly necessary. I have four or five of them rattling around in my toolchest and would be happy to send one to you gratis now that we know Customs doesn't have your name on a watchlist. :D You could probably use a deburring tool as easily.

Stan

[Kees Heiden]

The chisel looks so humble in the picture. I am also very curious to read your report.

I have been very happy with my humble little set of Koyamachi's since a couple of years. They are quite a bit better then my old Nooitgedagt and assorted vintage British chisels, and these aren't bad either. So I am curious to know how it could be even better.

[David Weaver]

The chisel looks so humble in the picture. I am also very curious to read your report.

I have been very happy with my humble little set of Koyamachi's since a couple of years. They are quite a bit better then my old Nooitgedagt and assorted vintage British chisels, and these aren't bad either. So I am curious to know how it could be even better.


Humble and plain is part of the draw. The iyoroi chisel in the picture is kind of blingy, it would be a poser in an edge holding contest but it's better than any of my western chisels and very soft sharpening, very easy, even on natural stones - any of them. Fujibato was clearing them out half price about 4 or 5 years ago, so they cost the same as any other basic level japanese chisel, maybe a little less. KI's were not easily available as bench chisels at the time.

The KIs are the best chisels I've seen in their price range. I haven't tried everything, but I've been through a bunch of brands (iyoroi, the regular ones, my iyorois, matsumura, kumagoro brand (which has more than one maker), some vintage export ebony handled w/s chiselsl, koyama (not ichi), miyanaga (miyanagas are good but cost a lot more than KIs)....). It might be that there's not really even much room to improve on them at the highest levels of cost, as KI is not afraid to make his chisels hard.

I haven't tried the imai entry level bench chisels, either, the oire that are probably white #2 like the rest of the $60 chisels. They are well regarded, and white #2 is easier to do well than white #1.

[Eric DeSilva]

Wish the video quality was better--was Tanaka the one the video started with? I was thinking that given the number of times he's swinging a hammer every day I wouldn't go into the ring with him and I'm probably half his age. My Japanese great-grandmother lived until she was 102--she lived in a 350 year old house in the mountains and took washed herself outside every morning, even when she had to break the ice to get to the water. Different life indeed.

[pat fowler]

I have no knowledge of Japanese tools other than what I have read here. I am curious about the concave back of the chisels, it seems to be very close to the cutting edge. It seems to me that through use and multiple sharpening it would soon be wore out. I have never seen one in person and am only commenting from the pictures so my perspective may be off.

[Chris Griggs]

I have no knowledge of Japanese tools other than what I have read here. I am curious about the concave back of the chisels, it seems to be very close to the cutting edge. It seems to me that through use and multiple sharpening it would soon be wore out. I have never seen one in person and am only commenting from the pictures so my perspective may be off.

The hollow is less deep around the edges so when you work the back you wear the hollow smaller.

[Noah Wagener]

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/samurai/

[David Weaver]

Preparation, thus far.

Stanley has a set of excellent pictures that is much more comprehensive than this, which is even worse than my normal abilities would make it because I apparently have no clue how to use my phone to take pictures.

At any rate, pretend I took a picture of rimshotting the chisel against my bench in order to get the handle, ferrule and chisel separated. There are two things i am going to do with it apart:
1) shave the inside of the ferrule. Not a lot different than chamfering anything, reminds me of reloading for some reason..
2) shave the chisel handle where it meets the ferrule to make sure that if the handle gets bashed into the ferrule hard over the next several decades, that it's not able to split where it meets the ferrule. Per stan's advice, this is the best way to avoid splitting on a handle that will see hard hard use (not something you'd need to do for light use oire nomi like my iyoroi chisels - light use would be pretty much everything on a cabinet except mortises).

At the same time, I removed the ferrule from the other end of the chisel, and shaved all of the burrs out of it, too.

First picture I managed to capture was my violin knife, apparently not up to shaving. This is a cheap knife from Japan Woodworker that I bought long ago when I purchased things from Japan Woodworker, not something I've generally done over the last few years, I just don't like them very much and go to them only if I have no other choice. This was probably a $25 marking knife. it excels at that. Works excellent for cutting leather for razor strops, too. But in the tests that separate boys from men, it can't hang - it looked like this with about a twentieth of the beveling work done.

262101

So switch over to one of the semi-HSS koyama chisels that I bought out of stu's store (side diversion). I'm a big fan of these, the only caveat is if you only have natural stones they're not for you, and if you have marginal synthetics, it's not for you, but you can grind it and it's very tough and not too expensive. It was completely unmoved by mild steel. No edge damage at all.

262102

And then, I missed the pictures from the next step, but imagine you saw tap around the handle a little less than a quarter inch from where it met the ferrule, and I shaved facets until it was flush with the tenon of the handle, and then I put everything back together. There's another step that stan does, but I didn't do it because my chisel to handle fit was perfect and the tang of the chisel is super clean. You can see the evidence of the work.

262103

Next, fit the hoop/ferrule at the other end. Tape up the end of the handle to get an accurate mark. You can do this a million ways. I usually score around the tape with a sharp chisel, and remove just a little bit of the wood...less is more here, and I don't remove enough to allow the hoop to get on the chisel. Then, I heated the hoop with a mapp torch so it would expand and put it on.

A quick slip back on:
262104

And some vigorous tapping around the thing until it's seated with a brass hammer, and it looks like this. I'll mushroom it before I use it the first time.

262105

[David Weaver]

Next, preparing the back and bevel. I usually start by cleaning up the bevel with a fairly coarse stone. In this case, I used a (dry) pink 220 grit stone. These stones are a retro mess. Flatness is unknown, I'm convinced they're used for knives a lot, but they are extremely fast because they are so soft. (brownish stuff is rust from a prior use).

262106

And then I work the end of the back with an ezelap 600. This prep is the only time this chisel will ever see diamonds - I'm sure this is horrifying to some. They don't do wonderful things for white steel, but this chisel is hard and I am lazy. The damage diamonds do to the edge will not last long and will probably be removed as it's prepared here. Maintenance will be done with natural stones.

262107

I use this sparingly on the back. It is the mark of an out of flat chisel or a hack to have to work into the hollow a lot, and it's very easy to accidentally work the thin flats at the sides of the chisel too hard, there is not much metal in that area, and the edge of the stone can hone them down quickly leaving a garish result. I focus putting finger pressure close to the cutting edge of the chisel where most of the metal is and never put any pressure back from the edge where the thinner flats are.

262108

I'm pleased with this. The very front corner of the chisel was not quite coplanar, so this is about as little as I could remove. On a common chisel, I wouldn't care as much. This chisel is made precisely enough that I could do the whole back side of the chisel without wearing too much of any point, but I don't feel the need to do this on a mortise chisel.

And then it's up through the grits from there. First to a shapton pro 1k (right), which is a nice follow up to the deep diamond scratches. And then I make a lateral move to a woodworker's delight washita stone (left) that's fairly fine for a washita. It's no finer than the shapton pro 1k, but the grooves are flatter, and my finishing stone will appreciate that. It is much more appropriate for carbon steel.

262109

The majority of the black on the stones is from the soft backing metal on the chisel. It's very clear when working the hard back on the stones that the chisel is as hard as expected. The washita works well to flatten the shaptons grooves, but it poops out once most of that is done. It's easier for a marginal stone to cut a matrix of grooves than a smooth surface.

This is what the bevel looks like after a washita stone, looks like a japanese natural stone, right? They're both a soft silica or silica like abrasive.

262110

[David Weaver]

And the final step, or rather two steps are done with a suita stone that I have. I don't know what mine the stone is from, there was no stamp on it. It's a true workman's stone, though, it will release grit with heavy use and cut pretty fast, but with a light touch, it won't. If you only ever had one natural stone, this is the best I've used. Not the finest in terms of grit, but the best overall.

It may be a narutaki or nakayama suita, those are the two that I've seen in abundance from the suita layers that are gray. A stone is worth a lot less if the stamp isn't on it, and that made this one cheaper for me.

The first step is with some slurry, removing the work the washita did. It's quick, flattening out the shaptons grooves quickly with the washita pays off. I do have japanese stones that can do the same thing, but the washita is what I had handy.

For whatever reason, I held the chisel to the stone to demonstrate the comment I made earlier about not overworking the back. I don't, obviously, hold it like this to flatten the back.


262111

And then I clear the slurry off of the stone and use it with clear water and lighter pressure. The slurry is more black because the stone's not releasing particles quickly. This results in a finer edge. This is what the slurry looks like, there's not much to it because I don't need to remove tons of metal, and on clear water, the stone doesn't cut as fast. This isn't a belabored process, but I do make sure that the work has been done to the edge at each step. Once this chisel is in its occasional use, it's unlikely it will be sharpened to this degree, but I do want to get an idea of how sharp it will be with a mid-level finisher.

You can see some of the slurry residing in the bottom right. It's always a grab bag to see what color the slurry will be. This stone is gray, but it will never make a gray slurry. Instead, the slurry seems like what you'd get if you mixed olive drab with light tan.

262112

Testing a heavy chisel like this on your arm is a good way to scratch yourself up. I don't have long hair (nor is it very thick), but I take what I have off of my head and get a little less than a quarter inch relief from one end of the hair to where I hang it on the chisel and it splits. This would look much cooler if I had big thick hairs. Anyway, to get an edge of this quality off of a workman stone (and not a razor finisher, etc) requires a chisel that has very fine steel. If your chisels are white steel, it's not too hard to do this with a chisel that has a bevel angle in the neighborhood of mid/high 20s in degrees. If you're using something else, you can still get an edge like this if you do a good job sharpening, but it will likely require a light touch on a very clean and smooth bare leather strop.


You can see that I left a little bit of the bevel unfinished. it's not coplanar yet with the rest of the bevel, and I'm not going to waste off any part of a chisel this fine if using it shows that's no problem (it won't be a problem). There's a bit of scuzz on the edge, too, but rest assured that's not part of the edge, it's just dust.

262113


And one more look at the back. Notice at the very edge it's a little bit reflective, it will become more reflective as it's brought back to the stones in use, but I'm too lazy to take it further today. You might be thinking that you've read elsewhere that japanese stones leave a hazy finish and a magic sharp edge. That's not the case. They can leave a decent working edge with a haze, but a truly sharp edge, at least at the business end, will have a pretty bright polish. If I were to ramp this up another step on a japanese razor finisher, the hardened steel wood look like a mirror. It is true that a decent slurried stone can outdo a coarse polished edge (like off of a 5k stone), but when you get up into the stratospherically sharp levels, the edge will always be shiny. The shine in this case is put on with the final step from the suita stone on water. I could gush about this stone and explain why it's so lovely despite not being that fine, but suffice it to say that there are stones that are hard but that still have a smooth feel, and that can cut fast, but with some understanding of slurry or clear water and how to manage the stone, you can really squeeze a lot out of a reasonably fast cutting stone without spending too much time on it. A stone that does that well and lets you work with it is a very very nice stone, and it fosters the natural stone disease. But I'm not advocating non-enthusiasts run out and buy natural japanese stones. As a percentage of the stones that are out there, very little that's not vintage is any good. This stone is probably not less than 80 years old, and there's a very real chance that you can spend hundreds of dollars on a stone and have something you don't like. This one came from alex gilmore at the japan blade (google if you want). You pay for your stones when you get them from alex, but he usually has something good that's not four digits and the only folks I've ever heard from who have poo pooed alex's high cost stones are people who haven't actually dealt with him.

262114

But hey.. I did that a couple of months ago with a norton tri hone that has a dud of a stone for its translucent/hard stone. That's natural stones in general.

[David Weaver]

And one last picture, just of the maker's mark, but close enough you can get an idea of how cleanly this chisel is made. It's understated in terms of bling, but it is perfectly and very skillfully made. 262115

I've got a couple of months of things to go through before I can think about making a plane and using this chisel, but when I do, I will bring this back up.

And in case anyone is wondering, every tool, stone, whatever in this article is courtesy of my wallet (there's always a tinfoil hatter or two assuming you got something for free).

Oh, and thanks Stan!

[Andrew Hughes]

I thought your were getting a bench chisel.I guess my reading is as bad as my spelling.Any ways it looks nice almost as nice as my tasai mortise chisel.:)

[Kees Heiden]

Thanks David, interesting read. And the chisel does look well made indeed.

[Chris Griggs]

Great write-up Dave! Really interesting stuff. Thanks for taking the time to go through the process.

[Frank Drew]

I have no knowledge of Japanese tools other than what I have read here. I am curious about the concave back of the chisels, it seems to be very close to the cutting edge. It seems to me that through use and multiple sharpening it would soon be wore out. I have never seen one in person and am only commenting from the pictures so my perspective may be off.

Pat,

As Chris wrote, when sharpening a Japanese chisel or plane blade you also polish (work) the back of the blade on the fine stone, both to remove any wire edge and to prevent exactly what you mention, removing so much steel that you run into the hollow. Even so, these blades, particularly the plane blades, sometimes need "tapping out" from the bevel face if sharpening has gotten too close to, or into, the hollow; either that, or working on a more aggressive stone then finish polishing.

[Sam Takeuchi]

working on a more aggressive stone then finish polishing.

It's not a good practice to try to chase the hollow by using aggressive sharpening. People here call it "beta-ura" (flat back), and it is considered a poor or bad maintenance habit. You can do it, but chasing the hollow by flattening aggressively would cause thin flat areas on either side to widen and it causes sharpening/flattening inefficient, and defeats the purpose of having a hollow in the back. Also doing so on a plane blade would certainly mess up fit of the blade prematurely, needing to make adjustment to the plane body (or dai, if you want to call it that) more than you should have to. If blade geometry is messed up through ham handed flattening, it can cause all sorts of problems from blade chatter to stuff get stuck in a gap between the blade and abutment (while blade is already tightly wedged into the body at the top).

[Chris Griggs]

I'm confused. What are you supposed to do? Of course, you wouldn't want to overly aggressively hone out the hollow but, I swear a little while back someone showed a video of someone tapping out the hollow and Stu and a bunch of other Japanese tools guys almost fainted. Maybe I misunderstood? What is the "proper" procedure when your edge starts to creep up on the hollow. I thought it was to just sorta do enough polishing on the back that the hollow would creep back slightly as needed. As far as tapping out goes I could be remembering wrong, but I swear I've seen some people say never do that and other people say that's the proper thing to do (and folks on both sides were people who I generally think of as knowing what they are doing when it comes to japanese tools). What am I missing here?????????

[Sam Takeuchi]

I was talking about a plane blade, Chris, as the post I was replying to was talking about plane blade ("particularly the plane blades,"). For chisels, you can take care of the hollow by polishing. Normally you don't need to tap chisels out. In some cases people do it on wide chisels. At times, some do tap narrower chisels when repairing large nick, but of course there is a limit where that stops being practical.

What you are missing is that chisels and plane blades are maintained differently.

[David Weaver]

Plane ura are steeper and deeper and the thickness of the iron must fit in the abutments tightly. You generally tap them out.

I can't remember what stu was having a cow about, but I do remember I agreed with him. I think someone was tapping out a chisel, where the fitting issues don't exist and what was left of the ura is usually very shallow and can be ground to without removing gobs of metal. I haven't chased a chisel back to the hollow yet, but I can admit that I'm extremely sparing about sharpening with japanese chisels (they can be kept up with a medium finish stone if just used for things like HBs and other general tasks).

[David Weaver]

Always two minutes too late.

[Chris Griggs]

What you are missing is that chisels and plane blades are maintained differently.

I just didn't know, that's all. Thanks for clarifying guys.

[Sam Takeuchi]

I hope you didn't take it like I was being condescending. It was a simple reply to "what I'm missing".

By the way, I believe the video that caused uproar was this one: tap tap tap! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NG8Wz6Wk54) from 0:54 mark

[Chris Griggs]

I hope you didn't take it like I was being condescending. It was a simple reply to "what I'm missing".

By the way, I believe the video that caused uproar was this one: tap tap tap! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NG8Wz6Wk54) from 0:54 mark

:)Nope, but for some reason I read it as a question (What are you still missing?) rather than a statement (What you are missing), so I was replying that that is exactly what I was missing..."that chisel and plane blades are maintained differently". Makes perfect sense. This darn real time written communication sure is tough sometimes though...I need to pay more careful attention to punctuation.

Yep that's the video. I remember Stu's comment when he saw it was "Oh! My! God!". :)

[David Weaver]

I hope you didn't take it like I was being condescending. It was a simple reply to "what I'm missing".

By the way, I believe the video that caused uproar was this one: tap tap tap! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NG8Wz6Wk54) from 0:54 mark

gah...on an new chisel. I didn't remember that it was new. gah!

[Jim Koepke]

I am missing so much that my intention is to stick with western chisels.

It just doesn't make sense to tap on a hollow to move hard steel.

jtk

[Chris Griggs]

gah...on an new chisel. I didn't remember that it was new. gah!

That's a new chisel????...MY GOD...even I knew not to do that to a new tool. And to post a video showing that its what to do with a NEW tool...I hope noone saw that and wrecked there expensive new chisels.

[David Weaver]

Maybe I should go back and add it to my half hineyed preparation history.

I didn't watch the whole video, but presume that guy was doing it to try to bring the front of the chisel down to coplanar with the whole thing? A lot of the less expensive chisels are not close to flat, there's no reason to work anything far into the ura like that. Just work up the first half inch or so and go.

[Sam Takeuchi]

You should do it on your new chisel, Dave. Come on, you know you wanna. Everyone's doing it. You can be one of cool kids if you do it. And of course...capture it on video and post it...even the part you hit the edge :D It's always the reaction where I get the most out of.

[Sam Takeuchi]

It just doesn't make sense to tap on a hollow to move hard steel.

jtk

You tap the unhollowed side to push the bottom of hollow out along the edge, and it flattens quickly on a stone. As it seem cumbersome, I guess it's something akin to "re-grinding" or something where people do every once in a while.

I don't like it at all. I don't like tool maintenance in general. So I use Record, Stanley, assorted English wooden planes and Lee Valley tools even though I'm surrounded by Japanese tools.

[David Weaver]

I'm pretty sure stanley would send me a poop in the mail if I did that, after going out of his way to hook me up with the chisel (he could've just kept everything the dealer had for himself).

(Plus, it's really thick, so I'd have to hit it with a really big hammer. )

[Stanley Covington]

The beta-ura Sam described is indeed bad news, but it is the eventual fate of a chisel sharpened many many times. It is something to embarrassed about only if the hollow is ground out while the chisel is still long. Unless the chisel is banana-shaped and grinding is unavoidable, or the blade suffers a deep chip resulting in the loss of the flat at the cutting edge, a flat back or bet-ura is not usually a problem.

There is one cause of beta-ura that can be avoided in both plane blades and chisels. Some people sharpen the flat on a medium stone (1000 grit or so) everytime they sharpen the blade. This will wear the back out swiftly resulting in a beta-ura early. I am sure David knows this, but for those less experienced with Japanese chisels (or even Western chisels for that matter), remember that once the flat is tuned and polished on your finest sharpening stone, you should not need to put the flat on anything but your finest finishing stone until the flat needs serious attention such as a re-grind. If you have a good finishing stone, whether manmade or natural (minimum 10,000 grit), and follow this rule, a bet-ura should not be an issue for many years.

But sometimes the flat needs to be "tapped out." This is harder to do on a chisel than a plane blade for a couple of reasons. First, the mild-steel used for chisels is usually harder than than that used for plane blades for structural reasons. Second, on a good chisel, the hard-carbon layer wraps around and up the sides of the chisel. This can be seen as a shallow "U" shape on the cutting edge. Plane blades are different with the high-carbon layer being more-or-less flat without the wrap. If you properly support he edge of a chisel or plane blade on an anvil of some sort, and carefully tap the softer jigane steel with a hammer, the softer steel will expand gradually bending the hard-carbon steel down towards the hollow. Normally, the same piece of high-carbon steel would crack if subjected to these sorts of stresses by itself, but with the supporting softer layer, it works. This bending is not accomplished by force, however, but by many tiny deformations. In the case of a chisel, it is possible in this way to bend down the center of the cutting edge, but not the edges where the high-carbon steel layers wraps up the sides. That means that it is dangerous to attempt to tap out narrow chisels. Therefore, with narrow chisels, the only real choice to correct a banana-shaped blade or the loss of a flat at the cutting edge is do grind the hollow.

At only 6 bu, I think that it would be risky to try to tap out the flat on David`s chisel if it had a problem. But if I recall, the flat was in fairly good shape and should not need such drastic measures.

Stan

[David Weaver]

It needed no more than 2 or 3 minutes on the initial diamond stone (which cuts the steel, but really isn't that fast now that it's broken in). It was a very low effort setup for a chisel, with predictable results in terms of sharpness.

I certainly would never touch that chisel's bevel with a hammer. Maybe on a very wide chisel, but someone like me and most of us working on tools and furniture sized stuff won't use those big chisels enough to get back to the ura, anyway.

As you say, I never touch the back side of a chisel with anything other than a finish stone after it is initially set up, and the blurb about wanting to preserve the ura as evidence that it wasn't overworked initially is, I guess, essentially about preservation.

[Stanley Covington]

It needed no more than 2 or 3 minutes on the initial diamond stone (which cuts the steel, but really isn't that fast now that it's broken in). It was a very low effort setup for a chisel, with predictable results in terms of sharpness.

I certainly would never touch that chisel's bevel with a hammer. Maybe on a very wide chisel, but someone like me and most of us working on tools and furniture sized stuff won't use those big chisels enough to get back to the ura, anyway.

As you say, I never touch the back side of a chisel with anything other than a finish stone after it is initially set up, and the blurb about wanting to preserve the ura as evidence that it wasn't overworked initially is, I guess, essentially about preservation.

You continue to impress me David. I'm glad that chisel found a good home.

I used mine over the weekend to chop waste in some 2-1/2" mahogany and it performed perfectly. The real test will be cutting deep mortises in silica crystal-infested tropical hardwoods, but after this initial test, I have no doubts it will perform beautifully.

By contrast, the widest of the Kiyohisa brand (White 1 steel, made in Sanjo) butt chisels I bought a couple of years as a temporary replacement for my Kiyotada butt chisels did not perform nearly as well in the same mahogany. They are just too damned soft, and I am very disappointed in them. It is getting harder and harder to find really good Japanese tools nowadays. So sad. I may need to start having Konobu make chisels. He only works in Blue Paper Steel....

Stan

[Stanley Covington]

You continue to impress me David. I'm glad that chisel found a good home.

I used mine over the weekend to chop waste in some 2-1/2" mahogany and it performed perfectly. The real test will be cutting deep mortises in silica crystal-infested tropical hardwoods, but after this initial test, I have no doubts it will perform beautifully.

By contrast, the widest of the Kiyohisa brand (White 1 steel, made in Sanjo) butt chisels I bought a couple of years as a temporary replacement for my Kiyotada butt chisels did not perform nearly as well in the same mahogany. They are just too damned soft, and I am very disappointed in them. It is getting harder and harder to find really good Japanese tools nowadays. So sad. I may need to start having Konobu make chisels. He only works in Blue Paper Steel....

Stan

I found a webpage with info about Kiyohisa. His products were recommended to me as being about the best currently available in White steel. But at the time, I was warned that he was not up to Kiyotada's standards. When I later complained about them, I was told that he intentionally made his chisels on the soft side to forestall complaints from amateurs that did not know how to properly setup or maintain a chisel with a harder edge. Too soft.

Stan


http://www.japan-tool.com/nomi/Kiyohisa_Dovetail/Kiyohisa_Dovetail.html
http://www.japan-tool.com/nomi/Kiyohisa_Tsuki/Kiyohisa_Tsuki.html

P.S. I have never used Bachi chisels. Has anyone else?

[george wilson]

Note on the "tap tap tap" video mentioned earlier: I would never use a diamond stone to flatten a stone,then use the stone after the diamond was used on it WITHOUT wiping the stone very clean. I'd be too concerned about stray diamonds,much coarser than the fine stone,being left on the fine stone,to scratch up my surface. I also would not use a curved top railroad rail to flatten anything. Get a flat anvil surface! And,get one that is not full of big pits all over!!!

[Stanley Covington]

Note on the "tap tap tap" video mentioned earlier: I would never use a diamond stone to flatten a stone,then use the stone after the diamond was used on it WITHOUT wiping the stone very clean. I'd be too concerned about stray diamonds,much coarser than the fine stone,being left on the fine stone,to scratch up my surface. I also would not use a curved top railroad rail to flatten anything. Get a flat anvil surface! And,get one that is not full of big pits all over!!!

AMEN!!!

Stan

[Ron Kellison]

"The smith's name is Kosaburo Shimamura, and passed away some years ago. He worked with his son for many years, but his son was badly injured in a traffic accident and was unable to succeed his father."

I have two long-handled paring chisels purchased during a visit to Kyoto that are labeled Kosaburo. The handles are round and slightly canted. They take and hold a wonderful edge!