Titebond III- can I trust it?

[Dave Zellers]

I am building a cabinet that will sit outside and be exposed to all the elements. Frame and panel doors and I was thinking of dovetailing the corners of the carcase.

I'm using 5/4 and 4/4 mahogany decking. Can I trust Titebond III to hold together for years and years and years through snow and rain?

[Rick Fisher]

Hello Dave.

I did a raised panel teak door for the outdoor cockpit of a boat .. its the door covering the spot under the (outdoor rear) sink on a 32' bayliner..

So while it shouldn't really get wet, the boat has sat in the humidity of the ocean for about 3 years since the door was replaced.. And Teak sucks to glue..

I used either Titebond III or Lepages exterior .. cant remember but the same color.. Still holding up just fine..

[Dimitrios Fradelakis]

To be more on the safe side since you stated it will be outside for years and years I would look in to a marine adhesive.

[Dave Zellers]

To be more on the safe side since you stated it will be outside for years and years I would look in to a marine adhesive.
Yeah- this is for a client so for peace of mind I think you're right. West System I guess?

[Mel Fulks]

To me the real question is the wood .Whats being called "mahogany"? See comments on "leather" furniture. Is it kiln dried ? The name "decking"makes me wonder. Most deck woods would not qualify for exterior dovetailing.

[Sam Murdoch]

Yeah- this is for a client so for peace of mind I think you're right. West System I guess?


System 3 epoxy is a good option too. Rather than a 5:1 ratio like West it is a 1:1 ratio. That leaves me more time to work than to calculate proportions :) and stick just as good.

[Dave Zellers]

To me the real question is the wood .Whats being called "mahogany"? See comments on "leather" furniture. Is it kiln dried ? The name "decking"makes me wonder. Most deck woods would not qualify for exterior dovetailing.
Why so? I'm a newbe to dovetailing.

[Dave Zellers]

System 3 epoxy is a good option too. Rather than a 5:1 ratio like West it is a 1:1 ratio. That leaves me more time to work than to calculate proportions :) and stick just as good.
That does sound good to me too- thanks.

[John Coloccia]

System 3 epoxy is a good option too. Rather than a 5:1 ratio like West it is a 1:1 ratio. That leaves me more time to work than to calculate proportions :) and stick just as good.

You just use the ratio pumps. One pump resin to one pump hardener.

[Mel Fulks]

There are just so many things being called mahogany and some of the deck woods move a lot ,even the expensive ones .My ipe deck has been down for years ,felt dry to start with,but has shrunk a lot. If you dovetail something and some pieces shrink more than others you might get some splits and flush surfaces out of alignment. IMO.

[Dave Zellers]

There are just so many things being called mahogany and some of the deck woods move a lot ,even the expensive ones .My ipe deck has been down for years ,felt dry to start with,but has shrunk a lot. If you dovetail something and some pieces shrink more than others you might get some splits and flush surfaces out of alignment. IMO.
Very good to know- maybe I'll skip the dovetails and screw and plug a locking rabbit or something.

[Stephen Cherry]

One thin to consider is the topcoat. The sun is not kind to a clear finish, and if you are trying to make something that will last, you need do figure out how you will get the old finish off. And what happens when the finish fails.

What happens when water gets behind the panel into the groove of the door frame? How will it dry?
I like the idea of a flat panel door, with battens on the back to keep it flat. Plus a flat door can be sanded easily without degrading it's appearance. For glue, I would look first at epoxy.

Here is one good finish
http://www.awlgrip.com/MPYACMDatasheets/3462+A+eng+A4.pdf

[Mel Fulks]

Wonder if client would go for sloped sheet medal roof with nice over hanging drip edge? Unless its oing to be under cover anyway.

[Jeff Duncan]

Some good advice here already....I would go with the West System over TB. I also would go with more mechanical fastening wherever possible so that there's not a lot of reliance on the glue.

What are your plans for the frame and panel? That type of door made out of wood and exposed to the elements is asking for trouble! Lastly I would advise keeping your warranty short on this type of work....nothing lasts long outside and unprotected in New England!

good luck,
JeffD

[Dave Zellers]

What happens when water gets behind the panel into the groove of the door frame? How will it dry?
I like the idea of a flat panel door, with battens on the back to keep it flat. Plus a flat door can be sanded easily without degrading it's appearance. For glue, I would look first at epoxy.

Yeah I started with the same board & batten thinking but didn't like the look. I'm going with a raised paned and I'll make the panel fit tightly in the groove on the bottom and leave maybe a 3/16" gap at each stile for expansion. Water will get in, but I'm not going to worry about that. This isn't as grand as I might be making it sound- it's a cabinet for an outdoor shower and a certain amount of weathering will only improve it IMO but I still want it to be sound and sturdy and last for years.

[Dave Zellers]

Lastly I would advise keeping your warranty short on this type of work....nothing lasts long outside and unprotected in New England!

good luck,
JeffD
What's a warranty? :cool:

She's a repeat client- we have a very good relationship. She lives on the edge of a saltwater marsh and appreciates the relentless power of driving rain and salt spray.

I like the thoughts of screws over dovetails and epoxy over TB III. Glad I asked!

[Sam Murdoch]

You know, using epoxy allows you the option of not using any exterior fastenings at all. The screws and bungs are a typical point of failure for out door cabinetry. I suggest that you could use interior cleats glued (at first) either to the sides or the top and bottom panels - located in from the edge to allow the corresponding parts to fit flush. These could be screwed on the inside in order to allow you to keep working otherwise you need to wait for the glue to dry between phases. Easy enough to clamp your box parts together and square as the parts register against the cleats. If you maintain the same grain orientation you won't need to concern yourself with wood movement - it will all move as one.

Maybe the top will overhang the sides and back to allow a bit of extra weather protection to the structure below. The doors should not have any square profile at the top edge of the bottom rail. That should be bevelled to allow water to run off. I hesitate to suggest that you might bore 3/16" weep holes at the corner of the bottom rail/stile intersection through to the bottom of the door to allow water to run through. These holes more often fill up with debris and eventually create more grief than they alleviate. Simply sloping the top edge will help a lot. For added insurance a light bead of clear silicone properly applied between the panel and the top of the bottom rail would keep water infiltration to a minimum. Prefinish your panels thoroughly before assembly.

Finally I recommend the System 3 over the West for the convenience of mixing to the correct proportion. Yes the West can and should be used with the 5:1 pumps, but then you need to make sure that you have the right size resin can relative to the hardener can and their respective pumps. With the System 3 even you have a gallon of one and a pint of the other you simply pour out a 1:1 ratio and you are good to go. I've just concluded that for my own needs this is much easier to inventory and to use - for what it's worth. They are both excellent products.

[Dave Zellers]

The doors should not have any square profile at the top edge of the bottom rail. That should be bevelled to allow water to run off. I hesitate to suggest that you might bore 3/16" weep holes at the corner of the bottom rail/stile intersection through to the bottom of the door to allow water to run through. These holes more often fill up with debris and eventually create more grief than they alleviate. Simply sloping the top edge will help a lot.
We think alike. Already thought about the sloped bottom rail edge and a weep hole. The slope is a given and I'll look at weep holes during construction.

Thanks- great info here!

[Jim Neeley]

System 3 epoxy is a good option too. Rather than a 5:1 ratio like West it is a 1:1 ratio. That leaves me more time to work than to calculate proportions :) and stick just as good.

West uses a 1:1 *pump* ratio but the mixes vary. They also offer several hardeners with different open pot times. When I was laminating my benchtop using 24 pieces 1.5"x5"x84" to make a 36"x84"5" thick top I used their slow-set hardener (same resin). They claimed 2 hours open pot assuming you keep it shallow (epoxy gives off heat as it cures & the warmer it gets the faster it cures). I spent 1:40 gluing mine up and it was just starting to get thick in the pot as I finished up.

Not als that different of their hardeners use different pumps (metered amounts) as well.

For me, the 1:1 pumping makes mixing a no-brainer, even when the "ratio of hardener:resin changes". One less source of error in life. :-)

JMO.. YMMV.

Jim in Alaska

[Dave Zellers]

When I was laminating my benchtop using 24 pieces 1.5"x5"x84" to make a 36"x84"5" thick top... Jim in Alaska

:eek: Your bench is 5" thick???

Whoa Betty! Mine is an old high school wood shop maple bench 2 1/4" thick and I can't even lift THAT!

I hope everyone here knows, when the missiles start flying, grab your family and huddle under your benches.

[John Coloccia]

West uses a 1:1 *pump* ratio but the mixes vary. They also offer several hardeners with different open pot times. When I was laminating my benchtop using 24 pieces 1.5"x5"x84" to make a 36"x84"5" thick top I used their slow-set hardener (same resin). They claimed 2 hours open pot assuming you keep it shallow (epoxy gives off heat as it cures & the warmer it gets the faster it cures). I spent 1:40 gluing mine up and it was just starting to get thick in the pot as I finished up.

Not als that different of their hardeners use different pumps (metered amounts) as well.

For me, the 1:1 pumping makes mixing a no-brainer, even when the "ratio of hardener:resin changes". One less source of error in life. :-)

JMO.. YMMV.

Jim in Alaska

They also make a clear hardener that you can use as a topcoat finish. A friend finished his bass guitar like that. I told him I'd provide the resin but he'd have to order the clear hardener from the marine store. Very versatile epoxy. I've been using West for 30 years. Nothing against System 3. Do be careful when specifying "System 3", though, as they have a large product line. Their general purpose epoxy is a 2:1 mix. Ditto for their marine laminating epoxy. Their T88 is a 1:1 mix. They're not the same. T-88 is what you want for a structural adhesive.

Just to be clear, someone had mentioned matching the epoxy can size to the hardener size. There's no such thing. You match the pump to hardener, and that's it. I have one large can of resin and several small cans of hardener here.

[Stephen Cherry]

They also make a clear hardener that you can use as a topcoat finish.

One thing to remember on an outdoor application is that the epoxy needs UV protection, such as a varnish. The advantage of epoxy as a coating is that it can fill the grain through applications that can be done more often than varnish. A typical application would be several coats of epoxy, applied often enough that they will crosslink, then several coats of varnish, or varnish substitute. Sounds complex, but it's much easier than taking a week or 10 days to build up varnish.

Also, I'd look around at some boat sites for ideas. Here is one that is particularly upscale:
http://www.hinckleyyachts.com/default.aspx

[Sam Murdoch]

Just to be clear, someone had mentioned matching the epoxy can size to the hardener size. There's no such thing. You match the pump to hardener, and that's it. I have one large can of resin and several small cans of hardener here.

It was me, and there is definitely a correspondence of the West System pumps to the size of the cans. You must use Group A pumps with Group A cans or Group B pumps with Group B cans. If you use the correct pump on a gallon container of resin you do not get the correct 5:1 ratio (or 3:1 ration for 207 and 209 hardeners) from a pint can of hardener with its own pump. You need to pair the correct the pumps for the correct ratio properly. West System offers a great product line and I do not dispute that. Here is a useful link with a good video http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10001&storeId=11151&partNumber=3405669&langId=-1#.UY23zuBBn4M

I say the same about West System as John Coloccia writes about System 3 - "Do be careful when specifying". They both offer lots of options depending on your intended use.

[John Coloccia]

Finally I recommend the System 3 over the West for the convenience of mixing to the correct proportion. Yes the West can and should be used with the 5:1 pumps, but then you need to make sure that you have the right size resin can relative to the hardener can

Which isn't true.



Just to be clear, someone had mentioned matching the epoxy can size to the hardener size. There's no such thing. You match the pump to hardener, and that's it. I have one large can of resin and several small cans of hardener here.


It was me, and there is definitely a correspondence of the West System pumps to the size of the cans.

No there isn't. A package of pumps has 3 pumps in it: 1 resin pump, 1 205/206 hardener pump and one 207/209 hardener pump. You put the resin pump on the resin, and you put the appropriate hardener pump on the hardener. I think the caps are even all different sizes so you can't screw it up, but that's just from memory. The only thing significant about the size of the container is that for the tiny containers, you use the short straw, for larger containers you use the long straw and for medium containers, you leave everything alone because it comes setup by default for medium containers. The little straw on the pump just physically needs to be the right length to get to the bottom of the can.


I say the same about West System as John Coloccia writes about System 3 - "Do be careful when specifying". They both offer lots of options depending on your intended use.

West has 1 epoxy system...105. That's it. You get to choose your hardener depending on how fast you need it to cure: fast/slow/real slow/clear. System 3 has a LOT of different options. In fact, when someone says "System 3", most people take that to mean their flagship product: the general purpose epoxy. If you go anywhere that carries System 3 and ask for System 3 resin, that's the system you'll get but that's not the best epoxy in this case, however. The T-88, or maybe even maybe even G2, is a better choice. I've not used G2. I use T-88 all the time when I need a small batch of epoxy.

Part of the confusion is that the guy in the video you linked to makes a point of saying you have to match up the sizes, but he's wrong. What he means to say is, "If you buy the A size resin and the A size hardener, then you will run out of resin and hardener at the same time." I don't find that to be particularly important. I buy larger cans of resin and smaller cans of 205/206 hardener because of my particular usage pattern.

[Stephen Cherry]

Here is another one of those threads with answers to questions that the original posters question did not explicitly ask; great discussion with the issue explored very well.

[Larry Edgerton]

Sam, the resin pump for West system is the same whether you are using the quart resin or the gallon, the only difference is that you slip on an extension tube for the gallon. The 205/206 hardener takes one pump, and unless you are using the 207 or other specialty hardeners you don't need the third pump.

I am loyal to West System as I have been using them for 30 years and their tech support is second to none, and as boat builders themselves they have more actual hands on experience than anyone. Besides, they are here in Michigan.

To the OP, I vote Epoxy. I make all of my entrance doors with West and have never had a failure.

Larry

[Sam Murdoch]

Boy oh boy put me in the corner with a dunce cap on :confused:. Since this was first explained to me, sometime in the 70s or 80s (who is counting) I have been under the the spell of epoxy fumes believing that the West System As went with the As and the Bs with the Bs. No reason for anyone to dissuade me from my ignorance. I mixed the stuff and it always worked. TODAY it is completely obvious that I have been a dope. I just went to the neighborhood boat yard and took 3 sizes of resin cans and pumped out (what I knew by now, thanks to John, to expect) equal portions of hardener with each pump. Well of course, why would anyone make it more complicated than that :rolleyes:. Please don't hold my disinformation against me and thank you for clearing up my misconception.

As for the reason I got side tracked with this discourse was to simply express my reason for preferring System 3 for its ease of use. I hardly dare write anymore on the subject but here I go anyway - again John was right and I was wrong that the mix ratio for this product is 2:1.

262069

My point in bringing this up as an option to West is that it is very easy to mix as little as a thimble full or any other volume with this ratio compared to the 5:1. I'm sure others have figured out how to mix tiny portions of West but I have never come up with a practical solution that doesn't result in wasted material. For small projects I find it very easy to pour off small portions in a 2:1 ratio and for that reason I prefer keeping System 3 on hand (though I have West in the shop too - only A cans or B cans at any given time of course :) ). As far as I can tell both of these products do the gluing task equally well.

Again thank you guys for setting me straight and apologize to Dave, the OP, for leading his thread off course.

[John Coloccia]

No problem, Sam. This is exactly why I keep T-88 in the shop as well. One pump of West is usually approximately one pump more than I actually need for the small stuff I do. I mix up little dollops at a time....completely impractical with West. System 3's products are dandy. If West disappeared tomorrow, I would use System 3 products and not give it a second thought. Woodcraft is now carrying System 3 so it's a little easier to get these days. For West, you typically need to go to marine supply or a hobby shop, and that can be a PITA because you know what happens...it's never in stock, they forgot to order it this week, the guy who does the epoxy order is out sick, blah blah blah.

[peter gagliardi]

Well, I haven't had any firsthand experience with LONG term outdoor exposure with TB3 so I'm not going to guess.
However, I do have long term experience with other products, specifically the adhesive epoxies mentioned up thread,which are supposed to be type 3 rated for continuous use outdoors, and powdered brown resin glue which is only rated as a type 2.
I have been working on this one project for 12 years now, and have had Honduras Mahogany on the exterior of it for 10 of those years to experiment with and watch!
What I'm about to tell you probably will go against everything you have ever read on this subject.
If you want the longest lasting structural adhesive bond, put away the epoxy 'cause that ain't it ! I have used the DAP powdered urea resin glue, and now am using Spectrum adhesives powdered urea resin glue- essentially a brown powder you mix with water. There is absolutely NO comparison in longevity! Short of resorcinol, this is the best I've used.
I have many , many bent laminated pieces of trim and fascia, along with small and large mitered trim pieces around posts etc... I wouldn't spend my time or money on anything but the powdered urea resin glue. The epoxy failed alarmingly quickly.
Just my .02
Peter

[Dave Zellers]

Again thank you guys for setting me straight and apologize to Dave, the OP, for leading his thread off course.

I don't consider it off course at all! The consensus is to use epoxy and I'm getting schooled about epoxy which I last used about 30 years ago.

As Stephen said succinctly: "great discussion with the issue explored very well."

[Dave Zellers]

Short of resorcinol,...
Peter

That's IT! That's what I used 30 years ago- couldn't remember the name. Cool, maybe I'll use that.

[peter gagliardi]

Only issue with it, is the dark color glue line, and tendency to bleed the dark purple-red color into porous woods. Learned the hard way on that with an interior Beech handrail about 20 yrs ago.
Peter

[joseph f merz]

I have many outside projects with tb111 .works very well ,and so easy to use . At a clients house I built an outside cabinet for 2 years ago .Wood is showing weather but the door frame [tenons]is tight .i have deck railings with mitered top caps on the railing holding up for many years .those would have biscuits and tb111 . I have a large fancy gate with a cool 2 1/8" thick raised panel that i was admiring wensday- built from reclaimed clear redwood decking .many old deck boards were planed and glued up to make the styles rails and panel .all tb111 .I have never had a glue failure .
finewoodworking july /aug,2007 did a review of glues and pva glue [which tb111 is] generally made a stronger [though not by much] joint then epoxy .