Pricing advice on large custom closet/wardrobe...

[Michael Dunn]

Hey guys!!!

I'd like some advice on pricing. Please be gentle. I know how to build this I just want to make sure I don't low ball myself or over bid and be or of consideration for the job.

Here are her specs. I'm thinking poplar for face frames and raised panel doors. I have accounts with lumber and hardware suppliers so I get discounts on materials. I'm thinking I'll build the carcasses on site and then build the face frames and doors in my shop. It is an 80 mile round trip so I'd like to get it done in 2-3 trips hopefully just 2. I'm mainly looking for labor advice. I plan to creat my BOM and charge her the undiscounted materials price. Unless there is a better way to do it. I'm all ears.

I'm thinking pocket screws for carcass and face frame construction. Quick, sturdy and easy.

"I would like a custom built in wardrobe/closet for my bedroom. The unit would measure 100 inches in length, 24 inches in depth and about 9 feet 9 inches in height. It would have 5 doors (similar to the picture with brass knobs in the center of the door). The unit would be comprised of 3 units total - 2 units would be 40 inches in length and 1 unit would be 20 inches in length. The larger units would have two hanging rods and about 3 or 4 drawers on the bottom. The smaller unit would be placed in the middle of the 2 larger units and it would have shelves on the top and drawers on the bottom."

Thanx in advance guys!!!

[Jamie Buxton]

Build and finish the carcasses on site? Where are you going to stay while you're doing that? Me, I'd build everything in the shop. There would be one trip to measure, and a second trip to install. If you have a big truck, you can transport the cabinet components fully assembled. If you have a smaller truck, design the cabinets to flat-pack. (Flat-pack -- the cabinets break down to flat finished panels, and assemble on-site with knock-down fasteners of various sorts. Kinda like the Ikea approach, but full-custom design and higher quality.)

For labor estimates, you have to think through how you're going to build the cabinets, and how you work. My shop time and equipment and skills are probably different from yours, so what I'd guess for me wouldn't help. Remember to include the costs of the trips -- mileage, where you're going to stay while you're there, etc.

[Michael Dunn]

Well, that was my first thought. I'll be working with 10' pieces of plywood. If it try to rip that in my shop I'll have to move my TS 3' closer towards the big garage door. Not a huge deal, my DC system is adaptable for these scenarios. I was initially thinking of using my TS-75 to cut the plywood pieces to size on site for the carcass. Then sand and paint or stain, whatever she chooses on site. Then install the carcasses. Take measurements for face frames and the. Door and drawers.

I estimated between 50-62 hours to complete. I used $45 as my hourly rate. Which would be between $2250-2790 for labor. Is that in he ballpark? Or too high? Or perhaps too low?

Lumber and ply will run $1325 to that I added 20% for a total of $1615.
Hardware and fasteners will run $325.17.

Her posted budget was $2500-$5000. With the high end of my labor estimate I'm still within her budget. $4730.

Any thoughts? Please feel free to give me some figures that you would use. I just want to know how other people think and work these out. I'm near Chicago where the cost of living is pretty high. I see your in CA so you know what I mean. I'm sure your COL is quite a bit higher. What do you use as an hourly rate?

Also, this potential install is in a pretty high class area FWIW.

I'd like to submit this ASAP, but I'd like some opinions on my figures.

Thanx!!!

[Michael Dunn]

I had to update my price. I forgot about the drawer faces. I don't have the bd ft calculations on me now, but it wasn't a considerable increase in materials or labor.

Anybody?

[Sylvain Deschamps]

Your looking at 2 casings at $300 and 1 casing at $225. Each having an inside 3 drawer unit at $200 each. Thats $1425 just for box production. An average of $20 sq ft of door and face frame for it's production and $10 ft (double sided) for it's finishing. So 90 sq ft at $30 is $2700. $325 for hardware and your total pricing for production is $4450. You still haven't installed it, add trim, touch up, and transport, your bid should be $5000. (Still to détermine is if drawer fronts Will be same as unit doors)

[Michael Dunn]

That's pretty darn close to my final bid I ended up sending yesterday. I sent a proposal for $4850. I'm still waiting to hear back from her. She's pretty busy selling her house or condo and moving into the new place.

Thanx for the advice. Would you be able to she'd some light on how you came up with your figures? Just so I can see how someone else breaks it all down.

[Sylvain Deschamps]

I appoligize for the font to all readers. I am using à french keyboard with limited computer skill!
I have only a small expérience of cabinet making. About 30 kitchens and bathrooms and a few built ins. For me a custom made standard 30inch kitchens case is $100. So 10 feet tall should be $300. I now make the doors myself but before i had them made from à supplier, where à standard shaker style door prices at $15 sq foot. So your raised panel cope and still doors should be at least $20 sq ft. Finishing doors with paint and laquer with HVLP is industry priced at $10 sq ft both sides. I use to quote with à multiple of 3.5 of all expéditures but it was not good for all expences and especially unknowns which Will always happen. Good Luck! Hope i was helpful.

[Buck Williams]

[QUOTE=Sylvain Deschamps;2108452]I appoligize for the font to all readers. I am using à french keyboard with limited computer skill!

Ce n'est pas de grave

[Andy Pratt]

Michael I think you might get more input in the "lumber yard" part of the forum (for contributors only, no search engines will return results from there as far as I understand it). I'm not sure if you need to be signed in to see it on the forum list or not. Many people aren't going to want to give pricing advice in an open part of the forum, where competitors/customers could read it. Probably protects you from the same thing as well.

[johnny means]

I would say 5k for that job is on the low end. A quality store bought unit approximating those specs would cost more than that.

[Michael Dunn]

Michael I think you might get more input in the "lumber yard" part of the forum (for contributors only, no search engines will return results from there as far as I understand it). I'm not sure if you need to be signed in to see it on the forum list or not. Many people aren't going to want to give pricing advice in an open part of the forum, where competitors/customers could read it. Probably protects you from the same thing as well.

Yeah, I just realized today that I put it in the wrong forum. Oops.

[Bill Space]

HI,

Well I don't make things to sell to others so take what I say with a grain of salt.

But I would approach it from my own cost and labor rate expectations.

What do you want to get paid for each hour invested in making the unit? How many hours will it take?

How many hours travel time?

What are the costs of materials?

Do you have to figure in overhead costs?

Costs of transportation? Fuel and vehicle depreciation/maintenance costs?

Other miscellaneous out of pocket costs to recoup?

Add them all together, along with whatever I forgot to list above, and you come up with your bid.

Your final bid will likely differ from others, for various reasons.

If another is chosen to make the unit, life is life. If you are honest with yourself and bid the unit at a price you think is fair, what more can you do?

Seems like if you want to make the bid price lower, your only option would be to lower your hourly rate, OR, reduce the time it take you to produce the unit (increase your efficiency).

As was alluded to above, what someone else charges does not necessarily relate to your specific situation.

For whatever this is worth...Bill

[Mark Bolton]

Just looking at it quickly I am right in line with Johnny, your number is way low. Just factoring in 320 miles of travel alone. Without taking everything apart if there is even a slight amount of site finishing I dont see how you can do anything in 2 visits to the job site. It would be pushing it in my opinion.

It sounds to me like she budgeted for a store bought item but is looking for a custom work at that price. If I had to travel 320 miles to do that work it would be much more.

*edit* I missed the 2-3 trips, I read it as 2. If it goes to three... ?

[Jeff Duncan]

There are so many factors involved in pricing a job I wouldn't attempt to bid that without more info. I will say if someone asked me to build based on what little details there are, the tiny pic which doesn't show much, and the budget of $5k I could do it. However it would be Euro construction w/ soft maple doors. No face frames, no 9'+ pieces of ply or any other material. I'd stack the hanging closets on top of separate drawer boxes all made out of pre-fin maple. Paint the banded fronts to match the doors and call it done. Now I'm more than happy to use face frames and build it however they want, but we're probably going over $5k.

As far as the distance....I'm not traveling that far unless there's a premium being paid for my services. I'll generally go up to an hours drive for larger projects. However I'm saying that currently having a full workload and really not able to keep up. For others trying to establish themselves....well, ya gotta do what ya gotta do;)

good luck,
JeffD

[Michael Dunn]

For others trying to establish themselves....well, ya gotta do what ya gotta do;)

good luck,
JeffD

Jeff,

That last statement kind of hit the nail on he head. I'm still waiting to hear if you accepted my proposal. I really need to get some cash flowing and some nice projects under my belt. I'm learning about the business end of all this as I go. I'm teachable and learn quickly from mistakes so at least I have that going for me. In addition to my wealth of tools and technical know how. That, and I have SMC by my side.

Thanx!!!

[Mark Bolton]

Its plainly clear you have the drive to make it work for sure. It's only my 0.02 but just be careful of trying to get business by keeping prices low. It can set a precedent that can be very tough to get away from. If you feel that you have to come in low to get things going just make sure you focus hard on raising your prices at the first opportunity possible.

You may have factored them in but for instance when you take 3 days of travel time (6 hours) perhaps more off your labor it can get sketchy. A day to go out and take accurate measures, story-pole/template the space and so on. Time at local sources procuring material, ordering on-line, paying local and federal tax. These are all things that count as billable hours.

Hopefully you get it and can get the ball rolling.

[Michael Dunn]

I just received the email saying that my bid was not chosen. I doubt she went with someone who priced theirs higher. It's probably for the better. It most likely wouldn't have been with the time. At least that's what I'll tell myself.

Thanx guys!!!

[Darius Ferlas]

If it's of any help, I'm close to completing a very similar project. Just some trim work left to do.
My unit is smaller though 60" wide and 7'8" tall. It took me exactly 36 hours to bring to the stage shown in the photo. That does not include the design work and shopping for hardware etc. I am a hobbyist working with wood about 2 to 3 hours a day after work and 8 hours on weekends. I don't have all the tools I would like for this kind of job and of those my Hammer j/p is about the only tool to speak of in terms of quality. I could certainly do with much more space than my one car garage has to offer.

[Michael Dunn]

If it's of any help, I'm close to completing a very similar project. Just some trim work left to do.
My unit is smaller though 60" wide and 7'8" tall. It took me exactly 36 hours to bring to the stage shown in the photo. That does not include the design work and shopping for hardware etc. I am a hobbyist working with wood about 2 to 3 hours a day after work and 8 hours on weekends. I don't have all the tools I would like for this kind of job and of those my Hammer j/p is about the only tool to speak of in terms of quality. I could certainly do with much more space than my one car garage has to offer.

Very nice!!! Beautiful!!!

[Darius Ferlas]

Oh stop it :D

It seems I was typing my post while you already posted yours about the email you got.

In general terms, I agree with the comments about under-pricing yourself, though I have to admit that when I started in construction, back in 1987 in NYC, my first profit from a 4 week job was $200. It wasn't much but I didn't complain as my background in construction was nil. You see... before I came to the US and picked up a hammer for the first time in my life, I had been a student of English philology specializing in the early Puritan writings in America :)

After that job I got 3 other contracts from that and the very next job gave me $24K in six weeks after all costs. It kept getting better from then on until I got tired of the immigration process and left for Canada.

[Mark Bolton]

I just received the email saying that my bid was not chosen. I doubt she went with someone who priced theirs higher. It's probably for the better. It most likely wouldn't have been with the time. At least that's what I'll tell myself.

Thanx guys!!!

Bummer to hear. You never know. The reasons could be from any end of the spectrum. It never hurts to give her a quick ring and just ask for some input for the future. Explain to her that you are always looking for any information that may help you with your bidding in the future. She may likely give you a lot of good information.

Im assuming your networking locally perhaps with some of your local suppliers, local lumber yards, and so on? The big boxes would be a waste in my opinion but if you deal with any small local yards often times dropping off some info and chatting with the guys at the local yards can get some action flowing especially if your willing to do smallish/odd stuff. In most markets the vast majority dont fool with the small odd stuff.

[Mike Cutler]

I just received the email saying that my bid was not chosen. I doubt she went with someone who priced theirs higher. It's probably for the better. It most likely wouldn't have been with the time. At least that's what I'll tell myself.

Thanx guys!!!


Michael

She may not have gone with anyone at all.
I agree with Johnny, $5K would have been on the low end, and it is entirely possible that she just found out how much a custom job can cost and is coming to grip with the cost of a custom installation.
You may hear back from her in a few months.

[Michael Dunn]

Bummer to hear. You never know. The reasons could be from any end of the spectrum. It never hurts to give her a quick ring and just ask for some input for the future. Explain to her that you are always looking for any information that may help you with your bidding in the future. She may likely give you a lot of good information.

Im assuming your networking locally perhaps with some of your local suppliers, local lumber yards, and so on? The big boxes would be a waste in my opinion but if you deal with any small local yards often times dropping off some info and chatting with the guys at the local yards can get some action flowing especially if your willing to do smallish/odd stuff. In most markets the vast majority dont fool with the small odd stuff.

I will definitely do that. So far I have accounts with two local yards. There aren't too many. Especially that have good prices. I do network and talk quite a bit with the guys at the yards.

Thanx for the advice!!!

[Mark Bolton]

and is coming to grip with the cost of a custom installation

Yep, or could have been comparing apples and oranges and bounced it in a completely non-custom direction with one of the million component closet options. Its definitely worth a polite call to inquire. Her knowing that your genuinely interested may get work in the future.

[Michael Dunn]

Here's the thing. I found out of her interest in this project through a website that mediates communication between customer and potential builders. I received a notice that she accepted another builders proposal. I'm new to this site so it seems as though I no longer have communication with her. Bummer.

[Jeff Duncan]

Be very careful when bidding on jobs that way. People who advertise a project online to get bids like that are looking for the lowest possible price! Think about it for a minute, would you hire someone randomly off the internet to work on your home b/c they gave you the lowest price? Or would you hire someone local based upon references and word of mouth? I would never hire anyone to work on my home that way and I'd be very nervous about working for someone willing to hire me that way.

Mark's point is very valid here too....when your first starting out you try to build up a reputation. You probably don't want to build a reputation as being the cheapest guy around....at least I don't;) Much better to build a reputation as someone who builds quality for a reasonable price. Even better if you can build high quality for high prices and still keep busy:D

good luck,
JeffD

[Richard Coers]

Questions like this crack me up. Pricing advice? My overhead is nothing like your overhead, at least it seems highly unlikely. The proper question, if there is one when someone is uncertain about their bidding, is how many hours would it take for you to build this. Of course then we have no idea how fast you work, what your methods are, etc....... I suggest you learn like the rest of us. 40 years ago, I always wished I had a flat rate manual like the auto mechanics. Replace a water pump on a 92 dodge? $500. At almost every shop in town. The other question I have is how did you arrive at your $45 rate? I hope you took in all your overhead, business insurance, etc.......then added profit. It would indicate you aren't planning much profit in your custom work, or you have really low overhead.

[Mark Bolton]

Questions like this crack me up. Pricing advice? My overhead is nothing like your overhead, at least it seems highly unlikely.

Ouch, that sounds exactly like something I would write! :) In defense of Mr. Dunn, while you do have to quantify your particular overhead for your specific operation, there are some national averages that are simply true across the board. The 45/hr rate is basically the low end threshold for what it cost to simply keep breathing in a business. You wont reach the beach, but you'll tread water bobbing in the ocean (with sharks swimming below of course). Numbers in this area are drummed out by places like the SBA all the time. Its basically the minimum billable rate that will cover the basics of being in business.

Its no news that he's working out of his garage, at home, whether its zoned or not who knows, whether his wife has income who knows, but by his own statements he has formed an LLC, is licensed and registered with the state he is operating in, and so on. We all start somewhere. Sadly kicking off a garage shop likely should have started three years ago not now when we are likely on our way out and the stock market has busted 15K.

With regards to questions about pricing a job.... I have seen dozens of posts like this on another site which is, in my opinion, a more professional (meaning people doing this as the sole source of food in their mouths) site, and post come in from all corners of the country and there is very little variance in the pricing. Perhaps 10-15 percent. There is rarely a case where a shop that has massive overhead is selling a job for 8500 and everyone else is selling the same job for 5500. Mostly everyone is in the same ball park. Some may be way out in left field, but its the same park.

I live in east flum buck and my numbers are very similar to those in metropolitan areas because my costs of goods are higher but my overhead is lower. It averages out.

[Kevin Jenness]

For your infotainment, Google "I would like to hire a custom cabinetmaker" and So you want to be a cabinetmaker".

[Mark Bolton]

For your infotainment, Google "I would like to hire a custom cabinetmaker" and So you want to be a cabinetmaker".

I remember when that first came out. Priceless. Whoever came up with that and the other about going into business should get an award. So spot on its spooky.

[johnny means]

here ya go

http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/7582361/i-would-like-to-hire-a-custom-cabinet-maker

[Mark Bolton]

here ya go

http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/7582361/i-would-like-to-hire-a-custom-cabinet-maker


And dont forget its equally relevant companion:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBi4zroEj1w