OH!-Hishi, my first water stones

[Peter Pedisich]

Please keep in mind my sharpening so far has been using a man made oil stone (combination stone from hardware store), sandpaper on granite, and diamond film on granite. I am new to water stones, and cannot make any comparisons to some of the high-end stones sold by others, just letting interested folks know about my experience with the Ohishi from Lie-Nielsen.

After just a couple of years of peeling and cleaning the granite after wearing out or gouging sandpaper I realized this was not for me, even though the results were excellent - especially the amazing but costly diamond film from Lee-Valley. I wanted a simpler and more long-lived method, so I called Lie-Nielsen and purchased the 1k, 3k, and 8k stones before they were on the site last fall, and just got around to making the stone holder/angle setter platform from the L-N site.

After flattening the stones with my DMT plate (8k needed a good 3-4 minutes of work on a slight crown in middle, 3k and 1k were essentially perfect) I went straight to work on the stock iron from my Sargent-made Craftsman No. 6. I just needed to touch up the micro-bevel, and it took fewer strokes than sandpaper for sure, seemed much faster. I think once I can dedicate a work area where mist from a spray bottle makes no matter I'll be much more efficient at touching up a blade and getting back to work.


here are the results on a piece of 3/4" poplar... pillow-fluffy shavings:

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-ep5QLtmVTmM/UYxscCXwAoI/AAAAAAAAB5k/h98IKGCIJyc/s800/IMG_8247.JPG

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-s1JcWo2gS1o/UYxsXDtAifI/AAAAAAAAB5k/Rzjj_4DIwbQ/s800/IMG_8245.JPG

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-wRxtkeqLyno/UYxsU3KawdI/AAAAAAAAB5k/Ll0KKgavAqg/s800/IMG_8250.JPG

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-7hl_hnKXTiM/UYxsa6mA7RI/AAAAAAAAB5k/tR6cMzIKMqk/s800/IMG_8253.JPG

I could also get results like this from my previous methods, but this sure is simpler and quicker. Now I'm thinking some Arkansas Oil Stones may be even simpler and quicker... uh-oh!:eek:
No, I'll use these until they wear out.

Thanks for looking
-Pete

[Chris Griggs]

Coolio. Glad they're working well. The out of flat new is not at all un commmon for water stones...its nice when they come fairly flat but certainly not always the case.



Now I'm thinking some Arkansas Oil Stones may be even simpler and quicker... uh-oh!:eek:


Probably not. I've said before that I love my oil stones, and if nothing else a good HTA or Hard black is nice to have around for a number of different things in and out of the shop, but push come to shove the water stones will get you there faster, on more steels, and give you a finer edge. There is something to be said for the ability to keep oil stones on the bench with no need for regular flattening and no worry about getting water on things. Their simplicity is the reason I've gone through phases where I put my water stones away...but inevitably these phases were short and I always went back to my water stones...they just get me to sharp (and sharper) so much quicker and easier.

Anyway, obviously there are people who prefer arks, and I'm am in no way saying they won't get you there, but if you had both good water stones (in a decent setup like the one you made) and good arks I think you'd more than likely find yourself using the waterstones more often than not. YMMV

You could still get some arks though...just because they're fun to have around...but mine have moved upstairs and are used almost exclusovly for my german knives and my straight razors.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

I think once I can dedicate a work area where mist from a spray bottle makes no matter I'll be much more efficient at touching up a blade and getting back to work.


This is why I like to use condiment bottles for my water application - (I use empty Sriracha bottles, but ketchup or honey bottles you can buy empty work fine - anything without a huge tip) gets all of the water where it needs to be, and not anywhere else. Even with a fine mister, your basically throwing water at the stone, and it gets places you'd prefer for it not to be. I just dribble some water on the stones and rub it around with my fingers if need be.

[Charlie Stanford]

Please keep in mind my sharpening so far has been using a man made oil stone (combination stone from hardware store), sandpaper on granite, and diamond film on granite. I am new to water stones, and cannot make any comparisons to some of the high-end stones sold by others, just letting interested folks know about my experience with the Ohishi from Lie-Nielsen.

After just a couple of years of peeling and cleaning the granite after wearing out or gouging sandpaper I realized this was not for me, even though the results were excellent - especially the amazing but costly diamond film from Lee-Valley. I wanted a simpler and more long-lived method, so I called Lie-Nielsen and purchased the 1k, 3k, and 8k stones before they were on the site last fall, and just got around to making the stone holder/angle setter platform from the L-N site.

After flattening the stones with my DMT plate (8k needed a good 3-4 minutes of work on a slight crown in middle, 3k and 1k were essentially perfect) I went straight to work on the stock iron from my Sargent-made Craftsman No. 6. I just needed to touch up the micro-bevel, and it took fewer strokes than sandpaper for sure, seemed much faster. I think once I can dedicate a work area where mist from a spray bottle makes no matter I'll be much more efficient at touching up a blade and getting back to work.


here are the results on a piece of 3/4" poplar... pillow-fluffy shavings:

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-ep5QLtmVTmM/UYxscCXwAoI/AAAAAAAAB5k/h98IKGCIJyc/s800/IMG_8247.JPG

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-s1JcWo2gS1o/UYxsXDtAifI/AAAAAAAAB5k/Rzjj_4DIwbQ/s800/IMG_8245.JPG

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-wRxtkeqLyno/UYxsU3KawdI/AAAAAAAAB5k/Ll0KKgavAqg/s800/IMG_8250.JPG

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-7hl_hnKXTiM/UYxsa6mA7RI/AAAAAAAAB5k/tR6cMzIKMqk/s800/IMG_8253.JPG

I could also get results like this from my previous methods, but this sure is simpler and quicker. Now I'm thinking some Arkansas Oil Stones may be even simpler and quicker... uh-oh!:eek:
No, I'll use these until they wear out.

Thanks for looking
-Pete

Sharp is good but they old boys from the 1600 and early 1700s were able to get about the same performance, give or take:

http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/will/hd_will.htm

.... and on plane irons, turning tools, carving gouges, etc..... the whole kit-n-kaboodle.......

This ground certainly remains "well turned" I think it's safe to say.

[Chris Griggs]

Sharp is good but they old boys from the 1600 and early 1700s were able to get about the same performance, give or take:



Nothin to disagree with there....



This ground certainly remains "well turned" I think it's safe to say.

And even less to disagree with here... "well turned" is an apt description... I suspect sharpening will always be well turned ground...

[David Weaver]

I could also get results like this from my previous methods, but this sure is simpler and quicker. Now I'm thinking some Arkansas Oil Stones may be even simpler and quicker... uh-oh!:eek:
No, I'll use these until they wear out.

Thanks for looking
-Pete

Yeah, stick with those. Buy a couple of oilstones if you sharpen things that those stones won't tolerate (I hear they're somewhat soft). If you're matching sharpness, oilstones take longer to use and are more picky about what you're sharpening.

[Charlie Stanford]

Nothin to disagree with there....



And even less to disagree with here... "well turned" is an apt description... I suspect sharpening will always be well turned ground...

:rolleyes:

Yep, diamond plates, sandpaper, lapping films, oilstones, waterstones, ceramic stones, the beat certainly does go on.

[Kees Heiden]

And before it was Turkey stones, Wesh slate, Belgium coticules. And then came the Arkansas ones... Sharpening always has been hotly debated.

[David Weaver]

The range of stones available in trade catalogs 150 years ago is pretty large, and I'm sure on average, they were better than what's available now.

There is still a misguided following for coticules, I find the new ones are pretty doggish, and almost worthless for woodworking. The vintage coticules can be extremely nice, but they are at a price no sane person would pay for a woodworking stone, and they still aren't as good as a decent modern stone nor do they have the characteristic hardness of a novaculite stone.

Turkey stones are friable. Welsh slates are really the only bunch of that group that are still inexpensive, so much so that you can go to some of the places where they were mined and just take pieces and cut them down yourself.

That said, I'd bet that the older masters from 300 years ago were using extremely good quality stones. I don't know how wares were distributed to different shops, but I'm sure that the better shops knew how to get better stones. It certainly is absolutely true in japan, the finer craftsmen used stones we could only wish to get our hands on now, and pooped out most of the better mines.

I do recall larry flipping his lid on here once when it was implied that craftsmen from several hundred years ago might have done with less in terms of ability to get a sharp edge.

[Jim Koepke]

Now I'm thinking some Arkansas Oil Stones may be even simpler and quicker... uh-oh!

In the dead of winter it gets below freezing in my shop. Have to use oil stones then. They come into use the rest of the year when something is being sharpened that might gouge a water stone.

There are times when one sharpening method may be more convenient than another. Being able to use all that is available is much better than tying one self to only one way.

jtk

[David Weaver]

I see a marketing opportunity, Jim. Ice stones.

[Charlie Stanford]

And before it was Turkey stones, Wesh slate, Belgium coticules. And then came the Arkansas ones... Sharpening always has been hotly debated.

Debated, perhaps. But the cabinetmaking, carving, turning, and veneering aren't really any better. I'd say edge quality has basically been static for hundreds of years if judged by the quality and quantity of end results (what the hell else matters?). People who sell stuff, and their friends the rabid consumers, will tell you otherwise of course. When in history has a salesman ever NOT hawked his wares? I'll grant that there may be have been some demonstrable improvement, but at the end of the day it's at the margin at best.

Carving by Martin Jugiez in Philadelphia in the 1700s:

http://www.antiquesandfineart.com/articles/article.cfm?request=872

This didn't get done with substandard tools or crappy edges (nor, for that matter, did the restoration work). If you could transport yourself back in time and walk into Martin Jugiez' shop and have him gesture with his hands and say "please, be my guest" then it would all be on you. If he could do it, the tools and their edges would be (and were) by definition no excuse. That's still essentially the case today.

[Kees Heiden]

Sure. Like David said above, they had very good natural stones back then. I don't doubt one second that they could make their tools razorsharp. And all the time they were looking too for the optimal stone, just like some of us do today. One big difference, the guys who made these wonderfull things from your links (thanks BTW, I liked watching them) were true professionals, and I am just a humble amateur.

[Charlie Stanford]

Sure. Like David said above, they had very good natural stones back then. I don't doubt one second that they could make their tools razorsharp. And all the time they were looking too for the optimal stone, just like some of us do today. One big difference, the guys who made these wonderfull things from your links (thanks BTW, I liked watching them) were true professionals, and I am just a humble amateur.

I'm a person less concerned with conjecture about the specifics of their sharpening media than I am a person who simply stipulates that they obviously had sharp tools. Like we do now. They could have used stones brought to them by aliens from outer space. If I don't have access to them now then the reason doesn't really matter. That said, the minerals of which these stones are comprised have been in the ground for millions of years. The time between the 1700s and now is but a blink of the eye in comparison. We hear that ours are 'worse' or might be worse, some might be better or are in fact better, but is this really the case and what, specifically, is the expertise of those saying so --mere ownership of a lot of stones without broad and deep examples of craftsmanship to go with? Did they read it in a tool magazine written by a salesman who at the end of the day is saying no more than the equivalent of 'get 'em now while they're hot?' Having a lot of stones pass through one's hands is as likely to be confusing as it is clarifying.

"New and exciting" or "rare and gone soon" are the oldest marketing ploys in history. They still work though.

[Sam Stephens]

They could have used stones brought to them by aliens from outer space.

I have a set of these and they make my DMTs seem like I'm trying to sharpen w/ cinder blocks! :D

[David Weaver]

I've never seen rare or gone soon described for anything other than old mine japanese stones, coticules and eschers.

The first and the last are true, escher and company quit when the stuff ran out about 80 years ago (hardly a current marketing ploy), and the stuff left coming out of japanese mines is second rate stuff because the best layers were removed. Coticules are partly a matter of economy.

As for the good new ones, functionally superior would be more accurate than new and exciting.

[Charlie Stanford]

I've never seen rare or gone soon described for anything other than old mine japanese stones, coticules and eschers.

The first and the last are true, escher and company quit when the stuff ran out about 80 years ago (hardly a current marketing ploy), and the stuff left coming out of japanese mines is second rate stuff because the best layers were removed. Coticules are partly a matter of economy.

As for the good new ones, functionally superior would be more accurate than new and exciting.

When you're older I promise you won't have the energy to chase your tail about like you do now.

Gracious, the only Escher I know of is M.C. Escher.

Back in the '70s we were supposed to have run out of crude oil by now.

[David Weaver]

Chasing my tail charlie? You're always full of judgment about what other people are doing, and whether or not its a waste of their time. I don't have any more interest in what you think I should be doing than you do in what I think you should be doing (don't really have too many conscious thoughts of that nature, to be honest).

Comparing something that's exhausted (escher hones) to something that's not makes no sense.

[Charlie Stanford]

I have a set of these and they make my DMTs seem like I'm trying to sharpen w/ cinder blocks! :D

Hear 'ya, brother!

[Charlie Stanford]

Let me take a wild guess - 'Escher hones' are a big deal with the shaving razor crowd.....a group only one or two notches above the crowd who pines after a certain brand of plastic yard flamingos, long out of production.

[David Weaver]

The shaving crowd "pines" after stuff that professional barbers used. Some depleted (eschers), some out of production for other reasons (good quality shell cordovan). As a straight shaver (which you already know), your comments casting stones at what other people do are unnecessary and I don't favor them and neither does anyone else. Are you getting my point? Because if you aren't, I'll do what I can to make sure you do. Everyone else here is capable of having a normal discussion without intentionally slighting anyone else.

[Charlie Stanford]

The shaving crowd "pines" after stuff that professional barbers used. Some depleted (eschers), some out of production for other reasons (good quality shell cordovan). As a straight shaver (which you already know), your comments casting stones at what other people do are unnecessary and I don't favor them and neither does anyone else. Are you getting my point? Because if you aren't, I'll do what I can to make sure you do. Everyone else here is capable of having a normal discussion without intentionally slighting anyone else.

Okee Dokee. I didn't mean to step on the toes of the barber crowd.