Does using a smoothing plane take elbow grease?

[Frederick Skelly]

So Im reading Garrett Hack's Handplane Book as you folks suggested. What a great book for hand plane newbies like me. I've tuned my Miller Falls 9 (equal to a Stanley #4 as you also taught me) and I tried it out. I can take amazingly thin shavings, but I find that doing so still requires a fair amount of physical effort. As silly as that sounds, it surprised me that taking such a thin shaving takes this much work.

Heres more details so you can check what Im doing. My iron is very sharp. (Cut my hand badly on it.) The mouth of the plane is narrow as Hack suggests, the chip breaker is about 3/32 from the cutting edge and the iron is cutting level (adjusted laterally per Hack). The sole is properly flat.

Im still getting some chatter because Im using the original iron and chip breaker. (Hack stresses getting thick iron, but still seems like the plane should work as is, shouldn't it?) And Im having trouble getting a full length shaving, perhaps because of the chatter. Likewise, the depth of cut for very thin shavings has been hard to dial in. Seems to be only a fraction of a turn's margin (1/2 thread). If I go past that in one direction Im too shallow and dont get a shaving. If I go more than about half a thread in the other direction Im cutting too deep and it skips. That seems pretty sensitive to me, but maybe I just dont know any better.

What do you think? Does this sound normal for a newbie with a recycled plane? Or am I overlooking something obvious?

Once again, thanks for teaching me!
Fred

[Chris Griggs]

I'd venture to guess that your blade isn't as sharp as you think it is. The indicator to me is what you say about the blade suddenly taking a thicker shaving then you want. A really sharp blade will engage the wood and start taking shavings with less projection. A not sharp enough blade will not engage the wood until your taking a thicker shaving than you want. A smooth plane should not chatter, even with the a stock blade and chipbreaker. Does your blade easily shave arm hair? Does it cut paper w/o haivng to make any (or at least hadly any) slicing motion (e.g. push cut)?

Other possible problems. What angle is your blade honed at? If you have it honed at to steep of an angle (over 35 degrees tops) there is not enough clearance between the the blade bevel and the wood for it to engage properly.

My advice.

1) Revaluate your blade's edge and make sure it is REALLY sharp
2) Make sure the front edge of your chipbreaker is a mating tightly to the blade and tune it up if necessary...it should not show light through when you hold it up to a lamp
3) Once you know that your blade is sharp set the chipbreaker so its just a hair away from teh blade edge. 3/32 is too much. You should only be able to see line of reflection of the the blades back
4) back up the frog so that is in line with the bottom of the plane....as in there is full support of the blade down past the chipbreaker into the sole.
5) Sneak up the cut on a narrow about 1/2 thick test block. When it starts to engage take swipes on both side of the plane and make sure you get the same thickness shaving at both edges - this ensure equal lateral adjustment.
6)Come back and tell us your results
7) If at first you don't succeed try try again....

[Chris Griggs]

Also, what kind of wood are you planing and how flat is the board. An out of flat board will require you to take a thicker cut to get a full width shaving. A thicker shaving will be harder to push and obviously so will a harder wood. Also, a plane is harder push if you are planing against the grain.

To answer you original question though...No a smoother plane with a sharp 2" wide blade taking a thin shaving should not be particularly hard to push.

[Frederick Skelly]

The blade shaves my arm clean and cuts paper pretty easily. Ive got it single bevelled at 25 degrees. Im going to look at it again though. Maybe it was sharp but has quickly lost its edge. Ive tried it on pine and on maple. Maple takes more work (as Id expect because its harder).

I moved the chip breaker back from 1/32" because I read somewhere in Hacks book that might help. And it did push a bit easier. Ill move it back as you suggest. Ill also move the frog back to give the blade more support. Thatll open the mouth up and may allow more chipout. But I can always adjust it back.

Thank you!
Fred

[steven c newman]

Yep, the first thing some people say is "Upgrade to a THICK iron". Really? I am moving a #5 jack plane around as a smoother261902261903261904 It was rebuilt from a "Parts Box" of old parts. Handles I made for it. The iron? A $3 Buck Brothers 2" wide iron, from Home Depot. No chattering from this plane, either. A little wax on the smooth sole, and away it goes. So, I guess it is all about sharp. I flattened the back of the iron until it shone like a mirror. Took awhile. Even green sticked up an old leather belt to hone the edge a bit. The other plane in the picture? A Millers Falls #900 V-Line plane. The 2x ? Maple.

[Chris Griggs]

Hmmm, if it shaves arm hair cleanly it shouldn't be hard to push even if its not at ultimate sharpness. Do raise the angle a few degrees (about 30), the edge might be rolling at 25 degrees, which is one possible cause of the problem.

Don't worry about controlling tearout yet, just get things funkioning first. Yes, a tight mouth does help to control tearout, but you do need to back up the chipbreaker if you set the mouth super tight. If you open the mouth a bit you can move the chipbreaker up which will reduce chatter and you'll get more blade support which will also reduce chatter. Eventually you will learn how to set the chipbreaker super close and control tearout that way (which actually works better than a tight mouth)...But again, don't worry too much about that yet, just get things working...just get it planing smoothly without chatter.

Thicker aftermarket blades can help compensate for other issuEd, but they are not required...a really well setup plane with a stock blade can achieve the exact same results, it just takes a bit more dialing in. Keep experimenting, that's the biggest thing...there are some things you just need to figure out through trial and error. Hopefully, others will have more idea's too.

[Gary Hodgin]

Try a little wax on the bottom of the plane.

[Jim Matthews]

Are you applying wax to the sole of your plane?

That's a great deal of surface area to drag around the board.
When I get chatter on a smoother, it's often because the lever cap is flexing the blade.

The lever cap should be tight enough that the blade doesn't shift, but not so tight that it's hard to adjust the "trim" with the depth wheel.

[Chris Griggs]

Try a little wax on the bottom of the plane.

Yes wax! In all the confusing junk I said above I can't believe I failed to mention that. Wax won't fix everything you mentioned but you can be sure it will make the plane a lot easier to push.

[Tom Henderson2]

I'd venture to guess that your blade isn't as sharp as you think it is. The indicator to me is what you say about the blade suddenly taking a thicker shaving then you want. A really sharp blade will engage the wood and start taking shavings with less projection. A not sharp enough blade will not engage the wood until your taking a thicker shaving than you want. A smooth plane should not chatter, even with the a stock blade and chipbreaker. Does your blade easily shave arm hair? Does it cut paper w/o haivng to make any (or at least hadly any) slicing motion (e.g. push cut)?

Other possible problems. What angle is your blade honed at? If you have it honed at to steep of an angle (over 35 degrees tops) there is not enough clearance between the the blade bevel and the wood for it to engage properly.

My advice.

1) Revaluate your blade's edge and make sure it is REALLY sharp
2) Make sure the front edge of your chipbreaker is a mating tightly to the blade and tune it up if necessary...it should not show light through when you hold it up to a lamp
3) Once you know that your blade is sharp set the chipbreaker so its just a hair away from teh blade edge. 3/32 is too much. You should only be able to see line of reflection of the the blades back
4) back up the frog so that is in line with the bottom of the plane....as in there is full support of the blade down past the chipbreaker into the sole.
5) Sneak up the cut on a narrow about 1/2 thick test block. When it starts to engage take swipes on both side of the plane and make sure you get the same thickness shaving at both edges - this ensure equal lateral adjustment.
6)Come back and tell us your results
7) If at first you don't succeed try try again....

Great post Chris. Spot on.
-Tom in SoCal

[Bob Jones]

Polish the bottom of the plane up to 600grit.
Be sure the frog fully seats in the plane body.
Be sure the iron seats well on the frog - especially at the mouth.
I did a brief write up on plane tuning on my blog recently. You may want to check it out - see my signature. Good luck!

[Jim Koepke]

Great post Chris. Spot on.

+1 on that.


Im having trouble getting a full length shaving, perhaps because of the chatter.

One of my block planes wouldn't take a full length shaving. The problem was the sole was concave from toe to heel. What was happening was that as the end of the stroke was reached I would let up pressure on the plane and the blade would lift out of the cut.


Seems to be only a fraction of a turn's margin (1/2 thread). If I go past that in one direction Im too shallow and dont get a shaving. If I go more than about half a thread in the other direction Im cutting too deep and it skips.

Doing the calculation for a Stanley plane, since it isn't known to me how many threads per inch the Millers Falls depth adjuster uses, at 24 threads per inch, a half turn moves the blade about 0.0208". At 45º that means the depth of the blade (0.707 x 0.0208= 0.0147") moves almost 0.015". That is a fairly thick shaving for a smoother. That is about what my jointers and jacks take when I am feeling good.

Check all the things Chris mentioned. Also check to make sure your chip breaker or frog position isn't causing the blade to bow up from the frog. Seating the blade properly on the frog helps to dampen vibration, AKA chatter.

My way to adjust the blade is to have the blade retracted and to move the plane along a thin edge of a board while simultaneously adjusting the blade depth. As soon as even the slightest shaving appears the adjustment stops and the lateral adjustment. If the full length of the piece is traversed with no shaving, I run both sides of the blade on the piece to make sure the lateral adjustment is in the ball park.

People with good eyesight will sight down the sole of a plane until they see a glint of blade emerge from the mouth. For some reason this works better for me with wooden bodied planes than on metal planes.

If all else is well, a 25º bevel should be fine. 30º is less prone to chatter. If the bevel is at much more it will not have clearance behind the cut and will tend to not cut well.

Here is an old post of mine that may be of help.

Sorry, LOML just called me for dinner.

jtk

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

You also mention closing up the mouth - I've had a fair amount of chatter with some planes with thinner blades if I close up the mouth by moving the frog too far forward. I like to leave the frog set so that the sole and frog are basically co-planer, or close to it. Backing the frog too much behind the body does that same thing.

Work holding and the surface your working on also can contribute to chatter - you don't *need* a behemoth work bench, but a too-rickety workmate or workholding solution can contribute.

I think Jim already mentioned it in a previous post, but if you add a location to your profile, there may be someone close to you willing to take a look. I'm certainly not the best at these things, but if you're near my neck of the woods, I'd be glad to help out.

[Frederick Skelly]

Thank you guys! Ill try out the things you suggest in the next couple days and let you know how it goes.

But the very first thing Im going to try is that WAX. (I havent used any yet because I need to be sure the turtle wax that I have doesnt have silicon.)

[David Weaver]

Gulf paraffin (or whatever your local paraffin label might be) is what you want. Super easy to put on, and cheap.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Like David says - paraffin wax works best - in my experience, paste wax tends to actually make things stickier rather than slipperier in some conditions!

[Jim Koepke]

Old candles work fine for me. Sometimes J & J paste floor wax from a shop rag.

Wax isn't going to fix chatter if it is caused by something else being out of adjustment.

Wax will only lower the friction. Try pushing the plane across a piece of wood with the blade retracted. Rub a candle on the bottom and try it again. That can be a big difference, but that is all it will do, make the plane slide easier.

jtk

[Gary Hodgin]

Frederick,
I'd go with paraffin wax or beeswax. I stay away from the auto waxes. I have used ordinary furniture paste wax but it's easier to just swipe a bar of paraffin wax across the sole every few minutes.

[don wilwol]

All good recommendations so far, except for the "you need to replace the blade" bit. Stock irons can work just as well once the plane is tuned. A thicker iron will be more forgiving, but a well tuned plane will work with the stock iron just fine. Don't get to hung up on how tight the mouth is at first, and don't worry about full width shavings. You just want a smooth surface. The full width shavings has a lot to do with the condition of the wood itself as well. There is a learning curve in setting a hand plane, but once it "clicks" its all worth it.

[David Weaver]

I'd say don't get hung up on how tight the mouth is at all. Control the tearout with the chipbreaker instead, leave the mouth open some so the plane can feed shavings freely. The chipbreaker is far more effective than the mouth at controlling smoother tearout, anyway.

Stock iron should work without chatter on anything up to and including cocobolo. If you get into heavier work, then there might be some chatter, but nothing that slows you down or makes work uncomfortable, and it's not on a finished surface so it doesn't matter.

[John Coloccia]

re: sharp
I don't like the "shave hair" test. An edge will remove hair without really being sharp. My test for a sharp blade: Hold the blade 90 degrees to the edge of a sheet of paper. PUSH the blade straight. If it cuts, you're good. If you have to slice through the paper, you're not near as sharp as you can be. I can take my paring chisels and literally shave slivers from the edge of a sheet of paper.

[Chris Griggs]

re: sharp
I don't like the "shave hair" test. An edge will remove hair without really being sharp. My test for a sharp blade: Hold the blade 90 degrees to the edge of a sheet of paper. PUSH the blade straight. If it cuts, you're good. If you have to slice through the paper, you're not near as sharp as you can be. I can take my paring chisels and literally shave slivers from the edge of a sheet of paper.

Yeah the problem with any hair test is that is varies from person to person. My arm hair is super fine so it really doesn't shave unless my blade is really sharp, but even then if it isn't uniformly sharp that test won't show it. An extreme example of this when I hone my razors, I can pop a hanging hair from my wifes hairbrush off of them before I can pop one of my own.

Anyway, I prefer paper or endgrain as well when sharp REALLY matters. If I can push cut paper like John describes I know the edge is sharp, then a quick slicing motion give me an indication of weather or not the blade is uniform. If its dull some area it will cat a bit during the slice. Similarly, when paring endgrain, dull areas show up as dull streaks. I don't do these tests everytime and still often just use the arm hair test as a quick and dirty check, but if sharpness is extra important and/or if I'm not sure how uniformly sharp my edge is they (paper or endgrain) are far more enlightening then shaving arm hair.

[David Weaver]

If someone wants to really test their skill, you can hold the chisel about 2/3rds of the way from the arm hair height (not against any skin, obviously) and see if your chisel will pass the hanging hair test by catching the hairs and popping them off. That is an arm hair test that would show sharpness for certain if there was any quantity of hair being severed.

No, I don't do that. It's a razor test. But offered for anyone who wants to entertain themselves.

(i don't do it with razors, either, and don't really test any of my plane or chisel edges, the easiest way to tell if any of them are good is to use them).

[John Coloccia]

I can get my straight razor to do that, but I've never succeeded with a woodworking tool EXCEPT I got my Japanese chisel to do it ONCE.

[David Weaver]

There's a fair bit of total angle influence. It works on older chisels at 25 degrees or so, and it will work on newer chisels at 25 degrees or so if they are stropped on a clean strop that is razor quality (that's a loaded statement, no strop that resides in the shop for more than a day when it is not in use is razor quality). Almost 100% of the time, the discussion about new steel not getting as sharp (when it's modern abrasives being used) is a wire edge issue. Not a big fanned out wire edge, but bits hanging on, but a strop that isn't razor quality may just wear the edge any way and scuff it up, especially one sitting around the shop with abrasive or dust, etc.

Not surprised to hear a japanese chisel would pass the test given their hardness and ability to dispense of most of the particles that hang on with less plain steels.

[Chris Griggs]

...the easiest way to tell if any of them are good is to use them.

Yeah, for most stuff I don't find a reason to test unless I encounter problems in use; though testing edges is not a bad idea until one gets confident in their ability to get consistent result sharpening.


I can get my straight razor to do that, but I've never succeeded with a woodworking tool EXCEPT I got my Japanese chisel to do it ONCE.

Same here. I've never gotten any of my tools to pass any type of hanging hair test....pretty easy to get my straight razors there though (though I don't hone my tools up to the .1 micron stuff that I finish my razors on)

[David Weaver]

Yeah, for most stuff I don't find a reason to test unless I encounter problems in use; though testing edges is not a bad idea until one gets confident in their ability to get consistent result sharpening.

Er...I forgot to finish my thought with that. I've seen Warren Mickley say (about just about everything) that a craftsman's experience is more valuable than academic discussion (as in, once you have the experience, you don't need to test the edges much), but the edge tests are excellent to use until someone has the experience. Some folks like to do them anyway, just out of curiosity, nothing wrong with that.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

I like the paper test, simply because it's easily repeatable, and I sharpen in a different room than I work wood ( although it's not really that far ) and it gives me a quick indication of if I've done the job, rather than going back to the vise and trying some wood. This is only when a blade is getting a fair amount of work. If I'm just touching up chisels on my finest stone or a strop, I don't worry. But it's a nice quick sanity check to realize if I left a wire edge or was asleep at the wheel and polished a bevel but didn't hit the edge. It's most useful now that I know what sharp is and what it feels like in the paper.

[Jim Matthews]

re: sharp I can take my paring chisels and literally shave slivers from the edge of a sheet of paper.

If by shave you mean pound, and by slivers you mean ragged confetti - So can I.
I didn't really have sharp tools until just after Christmas, this year.

I could tell by all the leaks I was springing - I was liberally applying the same finish made famous by "The Red Violin".

[david charlesworth]

I think Frederick said a single bevel at 25 degrees?

In my view this is madness. Even if very sharp the maple will degrade the edge in a very short time.

30 degrees is traditional.

I do weird things, grind at 22, coarse stone at 33, polish at 35, but it works for me.

best wishes,
David Charlesworth

[Frederick Skelly]

Good afternoon guys! Im still working through all the items I need to check. But Chris' comment about my blade not being as sharp as I think got me to thinking. So I started there. Even though I sharpened and polished that blade 3 days ago, it had nowhere near the edge I started with. So I touched it up and as you guys thought, there was noticeable improvement. Im guessing from posts here and comments in Hacks book that the edge wore out very quickly because of the low bevel angle. Do you think the chatter will decrease and the edge will last longer if I hone a 5 degree microbevel? (Should give me 30 degree bevel, wont it.)

Also, I opened up the mouth, moved the chipbreaker to about 1/32 from the cutting edge, tightened down the cap, and waxed the sole.

The combined effect was improved. Lets see what the microbevel does, huh?

Learning to do this continues to be fun. So thanks again. Ill keep you posted on my progress.

Fred

[Chris Griggs]

Good afternoon guys! Im still working through all the items I need to check. But Chris' comment about my blade not being as sharp as I think got me to thinking. So I started there. Even though I sharpened and polished that blade 3 days ago, it had nowhere near the edge I started with. So I touched it up and as you guys thought, there was noticeable improvement. Im guessing from posts here and comments in Hacks book that the edge wore out very quickly because of the low bevel angle. Do you think the chatter will decrease and the edge will last longer if I hone a 5 degree microbevel?

Also, I opened up the mouth, moved the chipbreaker to about 1/32 from the cutting edge, tightened down the cap, and waxed the sole.

The combined effect was improved. Lets see what the microbevel does, huh?

Learning to do this continues to be fun. So thanks again. Ill keep you posted on my progress.

Fred


Glad to hear its improving! Yes, a steeper angle will increase edge longevity and by extension a blade that stays sharp longer will be less likely to chatter (as long its sharp). I find a final angle of somewhere in between 30 and 35 degrees to be ideal. Also, FWIW even at steeper angle I'll touch up my blades multiple times in one shop session if the tool is seeing a good bit of use. Basically, when the tool stops cutting how you want it too its probably time to hone.

And yes, I agree, learning this stuff is a lot of fun!

[Jim Matthews]

I do weird things,
[David Charlesworth

...write books, publish cogent DVDs, inspire another generation of hobbyists to raise their game.

It's an unending wonder that the Big Dogs come play in the Creek.
Between DC and George Wilson, I feel I'm getting a decent education for a pittance.

If only my college years had been so productive.

[Chris Griggs]

If only my college years had been so productive.

If only mine had been $6 a year....I'd have a lot more money for tools!!!

[Chris Fournier]

Light cuts, less grease. Heavy cuts, lotsa grease.

[Frederick Skelly]

I GOT IT !!!!!!

I did all the things you suggested, a couple at a time. It got better and better. I am cutting light feathery shavings in white pine and maple. Not only does the Smoother get out all the planer ripples, it leaves the surface smooth enough to put a finish on without abrasives or card scrapers. It gets the rpples out nicely on mahogany too, but I had to scrape it to get it smooth enough to finish. (No matter which way I turned the board or the plane.) No big deal.

I think the greatest gains came from adding that 5 deg microbevel to take it to 30 degrees, sharpening more often and using parafin on the sole. But all the other tips got me better an better. From here, it'll just take practice.

Thanks again guys. I sure appreciate it. This was a lot of fun!
Fred