Cutting Stair Stringers?

[Wade Lippman]

PT stair stringers seem to be standard at 6.5" rise and 10" thread.

The ones currently installed going into the lake from my breakwater are installed backwards with 10" rise and 6.5" tread. Even at that they are too short and the previous owner used cinder blocks for the bottom step, but the waves always wash those out. I presume he installed it backwards to stop it from going too far out into the lake because the bottom slopes; so you would need 8 steps to do it properly; while he has it in 4 (3 wood and one cinderblock). But my wife says she can't do his stairs and wants me to put new ones in. I would like to make my own stringers to be 8" rise by 8" tread. I figure I can do it in 6 stairs then. It will make my wife happy(er), and not be too big.
Does this make sense?

Presumably I just get some 2x10s and cut notches? (the commercial ones say they are cut from 2x10s)
This would be too big to do on my bandsaw. Do I use a jigsaw? Would I then use 2x8s for stair treads?

[Alden Miller]

2x10s or 2x12s whatever works to give you space to get the rise and run you want. I would cut them with a circular saw and finish the cut with a hand saw.

-Alden

[Bruce Wrenn]

If you will do a little searching, you will find that there are formula's for figuring stairs. These are based on what is both safe and comfortable. When I lay out stringers, I clamp a 1 X 2 across the legs of the square that matches the rise and run. The 1 X 2 will span any irregularities, unlike stops. You will find something in the 7 - 7.5" rise and 10" run to be most comfortable. For the threads, I use 2 pieces of 2 X 6, instead of a solid piece of 2 X 10 or 2 X 12.

[Mark Bolton]

Ill bet youtube has about a hundred videos on layout and cutting stringers. May be worth a look. Im with Alden, circular saw and a sawzall to finish. I dont like to over-cut the stringer but if there is enough meat in the back a lot of people do. I really like Bruces idea of the 1x2 as a fence of sorts pretty nifty trick. A long time ago I saw a framer carrying around needle nose vice grips clipped to his pouch and wondered what that was about until I saw him use them for nearly anything and everything, holding a chalk line, place to hook your tape, and so on, but then I saw him laying out a set of stringers and used them for stops on the square. For about 15 years now I have three pairs of needle nose vice grips clipped on my bag and couldnt count the uses.

As an aside, how will you deal with the projection?

[Kevin Bourque]

The formula for figuring rise and run is simple enough and can be found all over the Web.

Instead of cutting a stringer why don't you use a solid stringer with TECO metal stair tread holders. You screw them to the sides of the solid stringer and then lay the treads right on top. Looks nice and clean, and its much stronger than a cut stringer.

[Mark Bolton]

The formula for figuring rise and run is simple enough and can be found all over the Web.

Instead of cutting a stringer why don't you use a solid stringer with TECO metal stair tread holders. You screw them to the sides of the solid stringer and then lay the treads right on top. Looks nice and clean, and its much stronger than a cut stringer.

The only thing that can be bad about a boxed stair in an exterior application is if risers will be installed they can become trash collectors. It can make a set of stairs a real maintenance nightmare with debris, leaves, and so on piling up the corners. Beyond that is the cost. Metal brackets are not cheap and the labor gain is minimal as the layout is identical and time to attach is comparable to cutting. Last, if your stair is wide, you still have to cut intermediate stringers anyway so there really isnt a lot to gain unless you just like the look of a boxed stair. In my experience it pretty much comes down to aesthetics when you add it all up.

[Jeff Duncan]

As the others have said there are formulas existing to establish rise and run which are based on the height and length you have to work with. To make your life easier they sell small clamps you attach to your framing square...(forget what they're called right now?). You simply clamp them at the dimensions you need and they act as stops against the stringer so you can layout all your lines easily. One thing to remember is that the exact dimensions you use aren't as important as making sure they're all equal!

good luck,
JeffD

[David Helm]

Bear in mind that if you are in an area where building codes are enforced, the maximum rise is 73/4 inches and minimum run is 9.

[Mark Bolton]

small clamps you attach to your framing square...(forget what they're called right now?).
good luck,
JeffD

Stair gauge.. :)

[Sam Murdoch]

7-3/8" is a more typical rise +/- 1/8" . She might find 8" to be too high and will only seem more so in the future. On public space stairways the rise is often kept around 6" with a deeper tread - 10" to 12". This makes for more gradual climb but can seem tedious. I guess in your case the 8" to 8" has the advantage of not getting you out to far into the water and maybe that is a good enough reason to maintain the higher rise so I just offer the 7-3/8" FYI.

[Mel Fulks]

I was also wondering why steps outdoors would be so steep,maybe the water makes the difference. The ideal in the old English books was set at 5 and 1/2 by 12 and though seldom seen is just like walking . When the low riser is found (usually outdoors) it is often with with a run of 16 inches or more,and that is tedious. The stair gauges that are hex shaped usually don't translate on the stringer to exactly where the numbers are ,so set ,mark ,measure,before proceeding.The old Starrete type make what they read on the square but are hard to find.

[Mark Bolton]

Mel,
The 5 1/2" is rise is still common in exterior construction only because it correlates to using a 2x6 as a riser. The same goes for the 7 3/8" riser Sam refers to, that would correlate to a 2x8. The 5 1/2" riser is exactly as you and Sam mention, tedious. It just feels like your never going to get there with todays longer legs. Most times when I have built/walked them you just cant break into a rhythm unless your 5'4" or shorter :p I can surely imagine it was a far better rise when people were shorter on mas.

In most cases you simply dont get to choose your riser height because its dictated by the total rise of the space your trying to accommodate. All you can do is fall within code and keep them all within an eighth. Its not uncommon to not be able to achieve your desired riser when working between two fixed points. Your gonna get what you get.

[Jeff Duncan]

Stair gauge.. :)

Thanks Mark, I have a hard time remembering anything until I've had my full dose of caffeine;)

[Mel Fulks]

Mark,thanks. I agree with most of that ,but the fact that most houses are not 'design build ' but rather ' design as you build is the cause of steep stairs. At least as late as the 1930s Audels and other sources refer to the now common 8x 9 stairs as "cottage stairs". Today few million dollar plus homes (around here anyway ) have good stairs .They have cottage stairs. We here a lot about aging in place,5 and 1/2 x 12 should be considered by anyone building to do that .In my experience both short and tall people find them more akin to just walking than being on a stair and like that feature. Don't often sell one but I have butted in a number of times to improve the code minimum to something better. Late 60s to mid 70s we made custom stairs in pitches as good as 6 and 1/4 by 10 and 1/2 drawn by architects. Don't see that anymore.

[Mel Fulks]

Just looked up current stair pitch charts and don't like them .Modern go with the flow stuff. The old method is based on the ideal even when the ideal can't be used. 5and 1/2 times 12 is 66 .If your run can not exceed ,say 10 ,you divide 66 by 10 and the right rise is about 6 and 9/16 . Or you can work riser first .This and a more complicated French chart giving results close to the other method were common in the older books. In any stair where I have had or could grab any influence I have always used the 66 method ,by which the modern 8 x 9 is literally off the charts.

[Richard Wolf]

Indoor staircases are normally 8" rise and 9" run. If you have the extra room in higher value homes, the run goes to 10". This all changes when you move outside. 6" or 7" rise with a 10" to 12" run feels so much more comfortable. But Wade has a special situation and seems like he needs a steeper than normal staircase. 8" by 8" is really steep, but do what you have to. Use the 2x12's for more strength. If you can think out of the box, consider an alternate tread staircase, like this; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mryPu6ISsvE

[Mark Bolton]

Indoor staircases are normally 8" rise and 9" run.

I dont like to nit pick here but as has already been stated the IRC calls out a MAX riser height of 7 3/4" and a MINIMUM tread width of 10". The tread width is measured nose to nose which is why most commercial stair treads are 11"+. Anywhere I've built a set of stairs if your rise is 8" and your tread width is 9" you had better have your sawzall out because there wont be a signature on your inspection. :eek:

[Mark Bolton]

aging in place

Im in agreement that the shorter rise is better as we age but I guess for me (Im still a bit on the young side I guess) it becomes and issue of space consumed in a structure and a trade for increased step height as compared to total steps taken. If you look at a large home with perhaps 9-10' ceilings with short risers you can be looking at an additional 6-7 treads or more with a winder which equates to 60-70 inches of additional stair run. Even with 8' ceilings your probably looking at +5.

It seems at least to me the move is to single level as we age. This is of course provided people can, and have the means, to relocate.

I am finishing up a project at the moment that is a 5K sq' zero barrier home. Eliminating all steps all together. I can tell you, its be nice to build without having to walk up and down two flights of stairs a hundred times. Gets me to thinking.... :)

[Brian Tymchak]

There's a small city nearby me (Lancaster, OH) that has deck building specifications (http://www.ci.lancaster.oh.us/dept/certifiedbuilding/pdf/SmallConstruction/Deck%20Construction%20Guildlines%20%201105.pdf) online. They indicate they are in accordance with IRC 2000, so they are a bit dated. I used these to design my deck last Fall. Disclaimer: my deck did not need a permit since it was a low freestanding style.

Anyway, these specs allow a 8 1/4" rise and 9" tread. (page 12).

Also, one thing that hasn't been mentioned yet is that they also specify a min 5" width from the notch cuts to the back of the riser. I had to use 2x12s for my deck, instead of the 2x10s I had originally planned.

[Mark Bolton]

There's a small city nearby me (Lancaster, OH) that has deck building specifications (http://www.ci.lancaster.oh.us/dept/certifiedbuilding/pdf/SmallConstruction/Deck%20Construction%20Guildlines%20%201105.pdf) online. They indicate they are in accordance with IRC 2000, so they are a bit dated. I used these to design my deck last Fall. Disclaimer: my deck did not need a permit since it was a low freestanding style.

Anyway, these specs allow a 8 1/4" rise and 9" tread. (page 12).

Also, one thing that hasn't been mentioned yet is that they also specify a min 5" width from the notch cuts to the back of the riser. I had to use 2x12s for my deck, instead of the 2x10s I had originally planned.

Im wondering if you caught a typo. On page one, #8 it states the guadrails, hadrails, and stairs, sections of the IRC and states the 7 3/4-10 dimensions. But further down in the document there is a drawing showing the dimension you specify. I believe page one is correct. I will have to look but Im pretty sure there is no section for interior vs. deck stairs in the code.

[Richard Wolf]

I dont like to nit pick here but as has already been stated the IRC calls out a MAX riser height of 7 3/4" and a MINIMUM tread width of 10". The tread width is measured nose to nose which is why most commercial stair treads are 11"+. Anywhere I've built a set of stairs if your rise is 8" and your tread width is 9" you had better have your sawzall out because there wont be a signature on your inspection. :eek:

I hate to nit pick, but check NYS building code;
§RR314.2 Treads and risers. The maximum riser height shall be 8-1/4 inches (209
mm) and the minimum tread depth shall be 9 inches (229 mm). The riser height
shall be measured vertically between leading edges of the adjacent treads. The
tread depth shall be measured horizontally between the vertical planes of the
foremost projection of adjacent treads and at a right angle to the tread's
leading edge. The walking surface of treads and landings of a stairway shall
be sloped no steeper than one unit vertical in 48 units horizontal (2-percent
slope). The greatest riser height within any flight of stairs shall not exceed
the smallest by more than 3/8 inch (9.5 mm). The greatest tread depth within
any flight of stairs shall not exceed the smallest by more than 3/8 inch (9.5
mm).

Check the document here;
http://www.townofbeekman.com/vertical/sites/%7B45AD6F45-1C6B-43EE-A091-A602A0E0E2B6%7D/uploads/%7BA3877D6F-4ADA-4889-AED2-3B6924516D79%7D.PDF


I've been building stairs and railings for 25 years and never had to take a sawsall to my work.

[Larry Edgerton]

Raise the water level of the lake................

Larry

[Larry Edgerton]

I've been building stairs and railings for 25 years and never had to take a sawsall to my work.[/QUOTE]


I take a sawzall to do stair work Richard. I used it on my last three sets to cut out stairs that someone else screwed up.

Same codes here Richard. Now you see why I don't say much any more?"

Larry

[Jim Andrew]

If you don't want to spend the money for metal brackets, I sometimes screw 2x2's to the side of the 2x12's in place of brackets. Then screw the steps to the 2x2's.

[Mark Bolton]

I've been building stairs and railings for 25 years

Sorry about that Richard, I assumed there had to be a local code you were referring to, thought you said interior. Obviously not always the case but I usually see international is the minimum allowable and local codes exceed it rather than reduce though I can see some allowances in deck building perhaps it carries right through in your locale.

[Richard Wolf]

Thank you Mark. The reason local codes often exceed international codes on stairs is because stairs eat up so much sq. footage in a house. By increasing the run and reducing the rise can easily add 8 to 10 sq. feet to a house per floor. With local housing costs averaging $200 to $250 per sq. ft. the math requires keeping the stairs to a minimum while still being reasonably safe.

[Brian Tymchak]

Im wondering if you caught a typo. On page one, #8 it states the guadrails, hadrails, and stairs, sections of the IRC and states the 7 3/4-10 dimensions. But further down in the document there is a drawing showing the dimension you specify. I believe page one is correct. I will have to look but Im pretty sure there is no section for interior vs. deck stairs in the code.

Mark, good catch. I think you're right. I never noticed that note on page 1.

[Wade Lippman]

I don't know about code, but the stairs now are 6.5" tread and 10" rise, so going to 8" for both will be a major improvement. (I bought the house last fall)

I just had to have the furnace venting replaced because it violated 4 codes and was likely to damage the furnace; noticed it when the vent iced over. The building inspector apologized for not picking it up, but he pretty much assumes the contractor knows what he is doing. (the contractor replaced it for free after 6 years, acknowledging it was inexplicably poor work)

[Mel Fulks]

I just now noticed that those stairs are a good pitch by the old formula,but turned the wrong way! A big miscommunication between buyer and workman or maybe they just used a salvaged stair.

[Mark Bolton]

Mark, good catch. I think you're right. I never noticed that note on page 1.

Brian,
i guess after Richards correction if its pertinent you better check your local code. Perhaps the drawing is correct.. Once threatened twice shy..

[Jim Neeley]

PT stair stringers seem to be standard at 6.5" rise and 10" thread.

The ones currently installed going into the lake from my breakwater are installed backwards with 10" rise and 6.5" tread. Even at that they are too short and the previous owner used cinder blocks for the bottom step, but the waves always wash those out. I presume he installed it backwards to stop it from going too far out into the lake because the bottom slopes; so you would need 8 steps to do it properly; while he has it in 4 (3 wood and one cinderblock). But my wife says she can't do his stairs and wants me to put new ones in. I would like to make my own stringers to be 8" rise by 8" tread. I figure I can do it in 6 stairs then. It will make my wife happy(er), and not be too big.
Does this make sense?

Wade,

One thing to consider is that if you have a set of 10hx6.5d stairs and replace them with 6.5hx10d tread, the stairs are going to be much longer (cover more horizontal distance).

For example, if you have a 50' rise (vertical distance to the water line), you currently have ~60 steps (600"/10") to cover the rise. This steps require a run of 6.5"/step x 60 steps = 32.5'

For the same 50' rise, with 6.5" rise per step you have (600"/6.5) you have ~92 steps. With 10 treads, these require a run of 10"/step x92 steps = 76'-8" of run.

The slope of your property must support this or you will need to build zig-zag steps to get in the 92 steps.

This rise-run thing is why handicapped ramps are so much longer than stairs.

Your rise is probably different than my example but you can count the number of steps (minus 1) and multiply by your current 10" rise/step to to get your current overall rise.

Short, steep steps require much less material, which is another reason why builders like them (and why there are code limits).

Jim in Alaska

[Brian Tymchak]

Brian,
i guess after Richards correction if its pertinent you better check your local code. Perhaps the drawing is correct.. Once threatened twice shy..

thanks Mark. I'm good to go. My stairs came out 6 3/4" x 11.5" if I remember correctly. I talked with my local gov building division before I built the deck. Since I was building off a cantilever, I was not allowed to attach to house and had to build a free standing deck. (which doubled the footers / beams in the plan..) But, the silver lining of that is that I did not need to buy a permit and thus no code enforcement. So, my local gov actually did me a good favor. But I built to code anyway, and in fact, overbuilt it. You could park a tank on it.

[Mel Fulks]

Sounds like you got a good job .They make people do cantilevers the right way ,not the Wright way ,since that Falling Water thing.

[David Helm]

thanks Mark. I'm good to go. My stairs came out 6 3/4" x 11.5" if I remember correctly. I talked with my local gov building division before I built the deck. Since I was building off a cantilever, I was not allowed to attach to house and had to build a free standing deck. (which doubled the footers / beams in the plan..) But, the silver lining of that is that I did not need to buy a permit and thus no code enforcement. So, my local gov actually did me a good favor. But I built to code anyway, and in fact, overbuilt it. You could park a tank on it.

No such thing as overbuilt. You built it to last which, in my opinion, is the only way to build.