Adobe

[Steve Clarkson]

I just read that Adobe is going to stop selling their "Creative Suite" and migrate everyone over to their "Creative Cloud" at a monthly subscription of $50 per month.........so how long do you think it will take Corel to follow?

[Scott Shepherd]

I was one of those people that said I never wanted anything to do with the cloud based software. I was firmly against it. However, I had a certain amount of time to try it out for the $29 a month, so I figured I had nothing to lose, other than $29. Now, you couldn't get me to go back. I love it. You don't have to wait 18-24 months for upgrades, and the access to some other items in their product line for no charge is awesome. Not to mention using Business Catalyst to create your own online store. It comes with a customer management module, e-commerce, and a email marketing module like constant contact. For the money, it's money really well spend for us.

[Martin Boekers]

It will be interesting to see how this goes. I think they should offer an hourly plan for "Part Timers"
What they gain in "Commercial Accounts" they will lose through hobbyists (yes I used the word "hobbyist" :)
This last year I upgraded to CS6 from CS3 after talking with Adobe, they said they were only upgradeing
to 3 versions back and by doing this I would be covered for future upgrades, yeah now the truth comes out....

Scott, do you really think the improvements will come faster after they have subscribers? With no more incentives to
sell upgrades.......? What will stop them from doubling the cost in 2 years?

Actually I am not sure why they call it "Cloud Based" as I believe the application reside on your computer.

All I can say to Adobe.........remember Netflix..... ;)

[Scott Shepherd]

Scott, do you really think the improvements will come faster after they have subscribers? With no more incentives to
sell upgrades.......? What will stop them from doubling the cost in 2 years?

Actually I am not sure why they call it "Cloud Based" as I believe the application reside on your computer.

All I can say to Adobe.........remember Netflix..... ;)

I have no idea, but I know from using it since about October, I've seen several updates for 1/2 dozen products, updates that would have normally had to been released when the next version comes out. Right now, it seems like about once a quarter, they release an update with new features. Not fixes, new features. On their own blogs, they are saying this model allows them to roll out new features as soon as they are available, rather than waiting for the next release, which they all seem to be really excited to offer.

The conversation is really over. You no longer have the choice, you have to go that route. So fighting it isn't going to work. We're probably not the average shop, and we get files from customers all the time. If we didn't have it, we'd have no way to open customer files. So for us, it's not a choice. I imagine if I never used customer files, or sent files to other shops, I probably would look for a different product.

Like you said, the applications reside on your computer and if you don't want to use the cloud, you don't have to. But it does verify the subscription every so often, behind the scenes.

[Martin Boekers]

Yes, I can see that they will give , "albeit" smaller updates quicker then waiting for a an upgrade release.

The thing with upgrades it always required a "new" purchase. This method doesn't, it requires a constant purchase.
You right about the discusion, I doubt Adobe will change anything except future payments. I haven't run into anything that I
have saved on my main computer that won't open and function on 7 (that's what I have on support computers. Now if you
deal with Illustrator. I have a hard time spending $360 - $600 a year for "licensing fees"

As you say, It will work for you and many "Agency" work.... I really see it pushing the smaller shops out of Adobe Products...
Time will tell.

[Scott Shepherd]

I had to stop looking at it from the part of my brain that didn't agree with it, and started looking at it from the business standpoint. $300-600 a year for something that helps me make a lot (or all) of our money was a no brainer. Considering the things we spend a lot more on that yield us a lot less results. To us, it's just the cost of doing business. We have 1 really good customer that we've had for years now and we have them because their old vendor wouldn't keep current with software and it was a hassle for them to keep getting files for them that worked on his legacy software. I remember the call like it was yesterday. They asked what they needed to do to get finished parts. I said "Send me the file", and then they said "What do we need to save it in? What version? What format?". I said "What did you create it in?", "Illustrator", "Send it in Illustrator". There was silence on the phone, and then they started to ask me if I was sure, etc. I said "Send it on, I'll take a look".

That was several years ago and they are still a customer today. That one customer alone has paid for the software more times than I can add up.

[Martin Boekers]

Yes, for many it's a no-brainer, esp the networking part. I have worked with Agencies before and that is a tremendous improvement!

CS6 was a great improvement for me from CS3, I guess if you want to "abstract" it a bit.... If you make use of it for say 10 jobs a day
over a year that comes to about $.25 a job....that's for the whole suite.

It's hard sometimes for smaller shops though, as sometimes that $600 is a pretty decent expense. The later versions of PS will keep
many of us satisfied for years to come.

I still think it's a shame they had to go "All In" on this....

[Scott Shepherd]

I agree. I hate to see it, but it's the way of the future and there's no way to stop it.

[Joe Hillmann]

Before they switched to the subscription idea how much did Adobe cost if you bought it and how much did it cost it you upgrade it? $600 a year is a bit sounds a bit expensive unless, (like Scott) you need it.

Microsoft office appears to be doing the same thing. You can get a monthly subscription or a yearly subscription but you can't buy it outright like you used to be able to. I would assume most software will be shifting that way in the near future. I also assume that will cause a lot of non business users to hang on to older copies of the programs that don't require monthly fees or switch to open source programs. I would also assume that the companies will start making there subscription programs not compatible with earlier versions that don't require subscriptions which will force users to get a subscription or stop using there program.

[Joe De Medeiros]

I'm sure Corel won't be far behind, it does 2 important things, it generates a continuous income, and it kills off piracy. The problem as I see it, is that now they can have a yearly increase in fees, and you have no choice but to pay it, where as when it was stand alone you had a choice to upgrade or not, I know lots of people who run older versions of the Adobe and Corel.

[Martin Boekers]

Someone will still figure a hack for it, someone always does...

Joe, I have upgraded every couple versions since 5. Upgrades cost about $150 - $200. When I bought 5 it was about $150- $200 (I think)
The way I understand it if you want PS alone it will be $29 a month. Right now there is a discount for upgrading from CS6 to "Cloud"
not sure if you don't have CS6 what it will cost, maybe a "one time" fee?

An interesting comparison....... I have been using Photo Shop for about 15 years.. Say I Paid $250 for it in 1998 and $200 for each upgrade
and I upgraded every 3 years (that's 5 upgrades at $200ea) I now have $1250 invested in PS. If I use today's model at $29 a month ($348 a year)
that would bring my investment to........ $5220.00..... Hmmmm any wonder why they want to do this?

[Steve Busey]

I would feel more embracing if I knew it was truly a "cloud" implementation, where I could log in to the cloud from any PC and work on the same files.

My hope would be that I could do most of my work on my desktop PC upstairs, then any tweaking on the laptop down in the unheated/uncooled workshop, without having two licenses.

[Scott Shepherd]

I would feel more embracing if I knew it was truly a "cloud" implementation, where I could log in to the cloud from any PC and work on the same files.

My hope would be that I could do most of my work on my desktop PC upstairs, then any tweaking on the laptop down in the unheated/uncooled workshop, without having two licenses.

That's exactly how it works now. When I travel, I do use the cloud, but for all other things, I don't. It makes a virtual drive on your computer that looks like a normal drive. If you create files on your desktop, and save them to that drive, when you open your laptop, you get a little icon that says you have files to synch. When you do, the files are now available to be opened on your laptop. If you save it then, it'll do the same thing next time you are on your desktop. It works really well, I just don't need those features too often.

You can have it installed on 1 desktop and 1 laptop without any issues at all, 1 license.

[Steve Busey]

You can have it installed on 1 desktop and 1 laptop without any issues at all, 1 license. :):D

I'm liking it better already!

[Martin Boekers]

I believe it comes with 100Gig storage that you can access. Not sure how the networking works as they license that
by the "seat" I am not sure that, say you went to a client and used their computers if you can access my area like an "FTP"
site. Also not sure if you could access someone elses network site, with permissions of course. Say I am doing layout work
for a catalog and working with a couple photographers if we all could access the same network or if the network has to be under the
same company's "Seats" alot of questions....

[Doug Ladendorf]

Not happy about it myself. My team uses a few of the tools at work and I suppose we will be forced down the path at some point, though I don't think IT will be fond of anything that has to go through the firewall. For my personal use, I've been using Adobe tools since 1996 and have long lost my faith in Adobe. At home I'll go five years before upgrading. I don't use it that much and the software still works fine. The cloud based version effectively forces me into an upgrade-every-year payment schedule that I don't need. But of course that's what it's designed to do. When I eventually need to upgrade I will be looking at alternatives to PhotoShop, Dreamweaver and other tools they are pricing me out of. Hopefully they continue to upgrade and don't pull a Quark.

[William Adams]

Adobe has already cut off most older versions from upgrades --- even the newest version only nets one a 1 year price break.

Either buy into it, or look for an alternative --- unfortunately, Adobe bought my preferred drawing tool (twice! The FTC made them give it up for 10 years the first time). Quesado's Stagestack looks promising, Inkscape is workable, and I've started using Nodebox, Processing and Asymptote (w/ xasy GUI) for all my design work.

Next project is being done in Scribus, and I've used LaTeX for years. Adobe, Apple and Microsoft won't get another penny from me for software.

[Glen Monaghan]

I briefly used Adobe products back when Windoze was a shell on top of MSDOS, and disliked their corporate style and "our way or no way" interface. Mostly avoided since, and still use the same PaintShop Pro image editing and (gasp!) MediaStudioPro video editor I've used for so long I can't remember when I bought them or what I paid (and still using MS Office 2002...).

The old version of PSP works but has the occasional infuriating hiccough on Windows7 and, sadly, MSP only works (poorly) via emulator, so I've slowly and begrudgingly been converting to Photoshop, Premiere Pro, and AfterEffects via CS5. I figured it was pricey for my situation but it rose to the top of the evaluation when searching for alternatives and I figured it was new enough that it should be future proof for long enough that I'd eventually forget what I paid for it and have got my money's worth. Hey, I still drive the same '94 300zx I bought back in '95, which I vaguely remember as being the second biggest but hardest purchase of my life; still love the car and can't remember what I paid for it, so at least I'm consistent! ;^)

On the other hand, my CEO forced me into ditching my old flip phone last fall for a shiny new "smart" phone (which is anything but...) complete with required monthly data plan, which I see mainly as a redundant charge for internet access except via a crippled tiny little screen and virtual keyboard... I can't figure out why people get so enamored with the things. Sure it's sometimes convenient to look up a phone number on the road or check traffic and such, but it just hurts my feelings every month when I see the autopay for more than double what my phone bill used to be, plus I have to check every now and then that I'm not getting into "even more exorbitant fees for going over your limit" territory. (Remember that commercial where a guy was telling kids they had to guess in advance how many minutes they wanted to play with a ball each month, and how they'd have to pay a lot more if they actually played more, but got no refund for playing less?) Maybe the only thing I really like about it is that the GPS app has up-to-date maps and you can adjust them yourself when you find an error, unlike my ancient stand-alone GPS that hasn't seen a map upgrade in 3 years because I've been unwilling to pay for an update that still doesn't have my local neighborhood correct (even though I don't need/use the GPS in my neighborhood 8^P.

So, while the idea of getting updates and upgrades on a more regular basis is somewhat appealing, that change from "pay once and have something you can use until it falls apart" to "pay and keep paying every month and have nothing at all to show for it if you ever decide to stop paying every month" REALLY hurts my feelings and offends the Scotch in me... I might look for an upgrade to CS6 but I don't see a subscription model for this software in my future any more than I see a car lease...

[Chuck Stone]

I will have to change software companies.

The cloud? Give someone else access to proprietary info? And be at their mercy?
AND PAY THEM FOR THE PRIVILEGE? I think not.

I've never really needed the upgrades I've gotten and I can get by
with my older versions and a computer without internet access.
I haven't even tried the suites yet, and don't really see anything I'd
need in them. (have fun with? sure.. need? no.)

[Dee Gallo]

I'm with you Chuck, I dislike having to upgrade. If it ain't broke, don't fix it, right? The "cloud" is just a scam to get my info, which I will not give up voluntarily and certainly not pay for them to take it. They can already take anything off the internet that I've posted anywhere, I don't need to give them more.

[Scott Shepherd]

But Dee, think of what you could do with these tools! I'd love to see you working with these things!

http://youtu.be/ULKXTKZor3A

[Mike Lassiter]

As far as getting the updates more often this way, why can't they continue improving the products AND update just like most programs do. When a update is available make it available and let it be downloaded and installed. Why do you need to wait for the next version when they can do updates for security patches or glitches now - they could also add the improvements so you could get them. I am like others, I am skeptical about the cloud and my work or programs.

[Bob A Miller]

Sorry I feel compelled to chime in here... As a laser geek I have only been learning & playing around with mine for about 7 months... However before that I retired as an IT Security manager...(with enough years in the business to offer the following comments)

I wouldn't trust anyone's cloud storage methodology...period. All the usual reasons, you never know where the servers are, who has outsourced to say India, what there security policies are.. Who gets access, Etc etc. While I won't & can't point or quote any juicy stories, just take my word there are a number of cloud based problems that haven't made front page news. Just be very carefully where you put your data... How important is it to you?

Large corporations reconsider things from their bottom line & how it effects them... Just ask Microsoft who announced a windows 8 rewrite to clarify things.... (today-yesterday) Seems there sales have fallen off dramatically.

Sorry I will now get off my soapbox..

Bob

[Dan Hintz]

I'm sure Corel won't be far behind, it does 2 important things, it generates a continuous income, and it kills off piracy.
Piracy is an oft-touted reason for going to the cloud, but the argument doesn't follow. The license server is a pretty simplistic attack surface, especially when you know where it's calling from (your computer) and where it's calling to (Adobe's fixed servers). The paradigm has already been hacked time and again, so nothing new to see here, folks.

Second, the folks who are (typically) pirating are hobbyists, folks who couldn't (wouldn't?) afford to pay the exhorbitant costs associated with such programs. So, Adobe has stopped a group of pirates that would never have purchased their products in the first place, and will continue to not purchase them. They will kill off some of the larger shops that pirate (like Chinese groups), but only temporarily as they wait for the hack to come out. These groups also will never pay for licensing.

Personally, I don't like the idea, mostly because of the quote below, partly because I'm forced into a monthly upgrade scheme with no guarantee I'll be happy with the "upgrade" I was just force-fed. Stable systems are a good thing to develop on, something I learned as a programmer many many moons ago.

The cloud? Give someone else access to proprietary info? And be at their mercy?
AND PAY THEM FOR THE PRIVILEGE? I think not.

[Scott Shepherd]

I wouldn't trust anyone's cloud storage methodology...period. All the usual reasons, you never know where the servers are, who has outsourced to say India, what there security policies are.. Who gets access, Etc etc. While I won't & can't point or quote any juicy stories, just take my word there are a number of cloud based problems that haven't made front page news. Just be very carefully where you put your data... How important is it to you?

Bob


I think it needs to be clear, the "cloud" side of this is NOT mandatory. You install the applications just as you would if you had the disc, or if you bought it off amazon and downloaded it. The application is INSTALLED on YOUR computer. You do NOT have to be connected to the internet to use your applications. The cloud part of it is simply the "option" (you DON'T HAVE TO install that option) to create a "shared drive", and that shared drive is available from anywhere. If you wanted to use that, you could. If you didn't want to, you don't have to.

If I showed you my install of Photoshop or Illustrator right now, you'd have no way of knowing whether it was the cloud version or the box version, because it's essentially the same (except mine has had had a number of updates that the box version wouldn't have).

I wouldn't fear the cloud part of this at all. You can opt out of that. It's the subscription model that rubs most people the wrong way. Cell phones work the same way. I'd gladly pay $50 a month for the software packages I get, as opposed to the $80-100 a month I pay for my work phone.

[Kevin Nathanson]

I may be able to shed some light on a couple of the questions that have been asked in this thread. I am a former group product manager at Adobe and Apple/Filemaker, and have been in the consumer software business for around 15 years now.

1. The simple stuff first - You don't have to store any of your stuff in the cloud. Scott's explanation above is correct.

2. The reasons that software companies can't issue updates more frequently are matters of economics and government accounting regulations. I'll cover them in that order:

• It is VERY expensive to do what is referred to in the software business as monolithic updates. The testing, training, documentation and localization (translating into all the languages the software is available in) tasks are monumentally large, especially for programs as mature and complex as Photoshop, Illustrator, etc. These updates are large and have to have a market-acceptable number of new features and improvements in them, because...

• People won't pay for them otherwise. This thread is certainly testimony to that phenomenon; look at how many have posted about not upgrading under the monolithic release model. If all a company does is a release that contains bug fixes and a couple new features, the economics don't make sense, because not enough people pay for it to justify all the costs I listed above that are incurred with each release. And, should you ask the company to just do it for free, there is another problem that those of you who are not accountants may not be aware of, called...

• Revenue recognition regulations. These were adopted as part of the Sarbanes Oxley accounting regulations back in the late 90s. Prior to then, software companies that did custom or small market software had a bad habit. They would "recognize" revenues that thy had booked but not completed the work for. This practice can be used to paint a rosier revenue performance picture for investors and the markets than is technically accurate. The new regulations curtailed this practice by declaring that, in order to recognize on the books revenue that had been collected, the entire product/project etc. had to be complete. In other words, no features could be missing, or released later at no charge to the customer. If you WANTED to do that, then you had to "defer" revenue that you had already collected, and not declare it as part of your financial results. So you , had the money in your bank account, but you could not declare it or use it until you had fulfilled the entirety of the product release.

Subscription models dispose of all of this. Because you are paying monthly, you are always getting 100% of the functioning product, and no accounting magic has to take place, except for the case in which you pay a year in advance, but that's easy, as the revenue is just recognized quarterly by dividing the total by four.

There is reduced cost to testing, localizing and deploying updates, because they can be done at a feature or unit level, and there is no "critical mass" that has to be attained in order to achieve what consumers will perceive as an "acceptable" upgrade. Likewise, bug fixes that include feature improvements can be deployed more rapidly, reducing the cumulative amount of frustration in the user base with in-market unfixed bugs. Likewise for compatibility updates, for new OS releases, etc.

Finally, the companies that go to an online subscription model eliminate the cost of packaging, disc production, returns, logistics and fulfillment of product, etc.

Thanks for reading,
K

[Martin Boekers]

I have never been a fan of online storage for numerous reasons, I don't see why companies wouldn't have their own on their servers
(FTP) then at least it can be monitered and the company can have it's own protocals...... An NAS drive is cheap now a days...

[Chuck Stone]

If all a company does is a release that contains bug fixes and a couple new features, the economics don't make sense,


I wonder why these two ideas seem to get lumped together so often.
As far as I'm concerned, a bug fix shouldn't have anything to do with
economics on a per case basis. Buggy software should be fixed at
their expense and that cost built into their business model. The customer
should never have to pay to fix problems that slipped by QC and beta.

New features are a different story. Those would be paid for by the people
who want them.

Now if you're Microsoft, you just find the bugs, create a bug fix and
then you CALL it a feature.

[Chuck Stone]

They can already take anything off the internet that I've posted anywhere, I don't need to give them more.

You'd be amazed at what they take off of your computer!
(without your knowledge)
It's in all the fine print nobody reads when they join a website or
install software. Suffice it to say that if you didn't agree to give
up information when you get online, you would find it VERY
difficult to find any websites to go to.

Check out programs like DoNotTrackMe, Script Blocker, ghostery, NoScript
and the like. Try them for a few days and you'll be amazed at how many
companies are pulling your info when you browse. Why does Twitter or
Facebook need to know that I'm on Sawmill? I don't even have a Twitter
account. But they know where you are, and they know where you've been.
Scarier than Santa Clause..

[Lee DeRaud]

Buggy software should be fixed at
their expense and that cost built into their business model. The customer
should never have to pay to fix problems that slipped by QC and beta.
...
Now if you're Microsoft, you just find the bugs, create a bug fix and
then you CALL it a feature.I know people like to slag MS, but they seem to be able to roll out updates in a timely, efficient manner without charging their customers a "subscription fee". Ditto for Corel and Intuit, to name two others. Explain to me again why Adobe can't?

[Ruben Salcedo]

Scott,

looks like we are in the same page here, I also went cloud and I love it, I'm always hungry of new features I love features that make my work easier and better.

I see that here are some misconceptions/misinformation, the 50.00 (regular price) a month is for the whole CC suite, but if you go with just Photoshop or any other single program the price I believe is 20.00 a month, but there is going to be promotional prices for current users (not cloud versions) for as low as 10.00 a month for a single program here Scott Kelby (http://scottkelby.com/2013/my-take-on-adobes-announcements-yesterday-at-the-max-conference/) have some Q&A that help understanding this CC thing.

Ruben

[Scott Shepherd]

I know people like to slag MS, but they seem to be able to roll out updates in a timely, efficient manner without charging their customers a "subscription fee". Ditto for Corel and Intuit, to name two others. Explain to me again why Adobe can't?

Might want to recheck that. It's exactly where MS office is going as I type.

[Martin Boekers]

Scott,

looks like we are in the same page here, I also went cloud and I love it, I'm always hungry of new features I love features that make my work easier and better.

I see that here are some misconceptions/misinformation, the 50.00 (regular price) a month is for the whole CC suite, but if you go with just Photoshop or any other single program the price I believe is 20.00 a month, but there is going to be promotional prices for current users (not cloud versions) for as low as 10.00 a month for a single program here Scott Kelby (http://scottkelby.com/2013/my-take-on-adobes-announcements-yesterday-at-the-max-conference/) have some Q&A that help understanding this CC thing.

Ruben

You are right about specific pricing, but the way I understand it for 1 application is if you have CS3 or later you get 1 year at the discounted rate ($10)
after that it is $20 a month. I still am not sure if you don't use Adobe right now if you have to "buy" in or not. It also hasn't been addressed if you use CS6
will that be the same application in "Cloud" or when this is officially launched in June will it be effectively CS7 even though the name will change?

Last year I upgraded to CS6 ($179.00.) To get one year of PS alone (Reg Pricing) will cost $240.00

[Ronald Erickson]

You do NOT have to be connected to the internet to use your applications.

While you don't have to maintain a constant connection, you will have to connect occasionally for the software to continue working.


Do I need ongoing Internet access to use my Creative Cloud desktop applications?
No. Your Creative Cloud desktop applications (such as Photoshop and Illustrator) are installed directly on your computer, so you won't need an ongoing Internet connection to use them on a daily basis.
You will need to be online when you install and license your software. If you have an annual membership, you'll be asked to connect to the web to validate your software licenses every 30 days. However, you'll be able to use products for 180 days even if you're offline. (Source (http://www.adobe.com/products/creativecloud/faq.html))

[Scott Shepherd]

While you don't have to maintain a constant connection, you will have to connect occasionally for the software to continue working.

(Source (http://www.adobe.com/products/creativecloud/faq.html))

It already does that with your boxed version as well. Adobe has been validating software for years now. That's no different than what already existed before the cloud version.

[Lee DeRaud]

Might want to recheck that. It's exactly where MS office is going as I type.I was thinking more in terms of Windows, but point taken. The idea that the subscription model makes it easier to do updates just doesn't hold water though. The whole thing sounds more like a way to force people to upgrade to the latest version as soon as it's released whether they want to or not, and I seriously doubt their corporate customer base will put up with that.

[Ruben Salcedo]

As right now, people that don't own CS6 and want to upgrade to it without going cloud they still can do it, is going to be support it for fixing bugs security etc. but no more new features will be available, well until this new CC version it was the same version as in the cloud with exceptions of new features they have been adding that no non cloud users have them, there won't be any CS7 only CC, also there is not going to be Standard and Extended versions any more they all are going to be like the Extended versions, also you have to understand that there is not such a thing as application in the cloud, you still need to download the program and installed it on your desktop as ever has been, the cloud benefit is only to sync files and with the new version also settings between computers you use Photoshop along with some applications for phones and tablets oh, and also to host websites etc, Here (http://kelbytv.com/thegrid/) is going to be a live show at 4:00 pm east time today, they will explain all the details of this change.

[Lee DeRaud]

It's exactly where MS office is going as I type.You type too fast: http://www.zdnet.com/subscription-only-microsoft-office-dont-hold-your-breath-says-microsoft-7000015063/

[Scott Shepherd]

It's the same thing as SkyDrive by Microsoft (the cloud part of this). Oddly, I haven't seen a single thread on how no one wanted to go to the SkyDrive. It's the exact same thing. MS Office strongly encourages the use of the sky drive.

[Scott Shepherd]

Isn't Office 365 from Microsoft the same thing? You have to pay monthly fees and it is all shared data across platforms as well.

[William Adams]

The difference is, Adobe is discontinuing the perpetually-licensed version --- you can still buy Office 2013, and they haven't announced that there won't be an Office 2015.

Essentially, Adobe has declared that for every instance of their graphic design software they want ~$50 / month for as long as it's used --- a return to the mainframe pricing model personal computers released users from.

I can't believe the industry is taking this --- 1984 was supposed to be a cautionary tale, not a planning guide.

[Glen Monaghan]

the subscription model ... sounds more like a way to force people to upgrade to the latest version as soon as it's released whether they want to or not, and I seriously doubt their corporate customer base will put up with that.

Actually, more to the point, it's a way to force customers to pay and keep paying on a regular basis, and to deny continued use of the software should people decide not to keep paying.

Despite the typical corporate predilection for configuration management of company computer assets, many corporate customers may actually like this scheme because it avoids that large up-front license fee in favor of "small monthly pay-as-you-go" payments, regardless of how much more expensive it actually is in the long run.

I am one of the customer base who prefers stability and consistency in my software with only very occasional changes for very specific, significant upgrades, and the ability to opt out of additional upgrade expense while retaining the perpetual right and ability to use the software I paid for. Not a fan of the lease/subscription model in cases like this...

[Lee DeRaud]

Despite the typical corporate predilection for configuration management of company computer assets, many corporate customers may actually like this scheme because it avoids that large up-front license fee in favor of "small monthly pay-as-you-go" payments, regardless of how much more expensive it actually is in the long run.

I am one of the customer base who prefers stability and consistency in my software with only very occasional changes for very specific, significant upgrades, and the ability to opt out of additional upgrade expense while retaining the perpetual right and ability to use the software I paid for. Not a fan of the lease/subscription model in cases like this...The thing is, the corporate customer base I referred to works the same way: it's very rare for them to jump on a new version of Windows or Office when it first comes out. They tend to phase in slowly, deploying the "new" version (or more typically, the first 'service pack' update of it) to non-mission-critical areas before committing to it company-wide. That's even before considering any secure users who could not be allowed to access servers outside the company firewall for any necessary periodic validation.

[Rodne Gold]

There is a Poll at dpreview.com (camera site) re Adobes new policy
What is telling is that only 5% of the ppl that responded to the poll said it would work for them...
http://www.dpreview.com/news/2013/05/08/Adobe-CC-Creative-Cloud-Complaints-Poll-of-Photographers-Photoshop-users
As a software co , I would be very concerned at those results..

[Mike Null]

The bottom line for me is the huge cost increase versus owning your own software. I will be very slow in switching to a subscription model as long as alternatives are available.

[Dan Hintz]

• It is VERY expensive to do what is referred to in the software business as monolithic updates. The testing, training, documentation and localization (translating into all the languages the software is available in) tasks are monumentally large, especially for programs as mature and complex as Photoshop, Illustrator, etc. These updates are large and have to have a market-acceptable number of new features and improvements in them, because...

• People won't pay for them otherwise.

I won't dissect every item, but this particular one is a real sticking point for me. The idea that people won't pay for a small "upgrade" (bug fix?) is certainly true, but the real problem is it leads to the tail wagging the dog. Scenario (I put it in quotes for clarity):


Company ships product with a boatload of bugs (sound familiar?). No one will pay for a bug update, but the company cannot survive the next quarter without an influx of money. It will take longer than the quarter to fix all of the bugs, so what does it do? Company fixes a few bugs and writes some easy-to-implement features... and this is where it gets fun. Because the patch includes new features, they can call it an "upgrade", which means they can charge money for it. Financial problem solved.

I will pay for a good feature add. I do not wish to pay for a bug fix. I want to know my up-front cost for a product, and I want to have the option of using it in perpetuity. Moving to a fee-based model removes all of that. Renting software is not a good long-term plan, IMO. It also forces me into a situation where I'm in a constant ping pong battle of feature upgrades and bug fixes for previously added features I may not have needed/wanted. Stability, as I mentioned before, is what I want.

[Doug Ladendorf]

What looks like another issue for corporate is that software hits the "expense" line and can be depreciated. This subscription model makes it a "cost" which is more expensive dollar for dollar.

That their key client base from the poll mentioned does not like this pricing scheme makes it clear that Adobe is focused on stock holders rather than clients.

[Scott Shepherd]

If history is any indication, the polls don't matter to them.

Having said all this, I can't wait for the next version of Photoshop in June. It's finally going to have the camera shake tool, which will take a photo that is blurry from camera shake and make it clear. That's going to be a feature I'll use all the time. No more dealing with blurry photos! Hooorayyy!

[Mike Troncalli]

I don't use Adobe, I use Corel 5 so my position on this may not mean much. However.... I have a dedicated PC for my laser which is rarely attached to the internet. I need my PC to do one thing... Run the laser, not poll the internet for MS upgrades, Java upgrades, Adobe upgrades, etc... About once a week or so I connect so that I can check for updates, back up files, etc... That's fine, just not while I am trying to run my laser... So having to keep my machine hooked up to the internet does not work for me.

Dan Heinz had a very good point when he said he wanted bug fixes NOT upgrades that he may not use..

There are literally thousands of Adobe users who do this as just a hobby and just are not going to be willing to pay a monthly fee. In my business, engraving is just a part of what we do, so NO.. I REFUSE TO PAY A MONTHLY FEE TO USE YOUR SERVICE... Way too many alternative options out there for me... Oh and MicroSoft.. If you are listening ??? I will NEVER upgrade to MS Office 2013 to pay your monthly fee either... I will switch to open source (Libreoffice).... Wow.. sorry... got myself all worked up... Need to go burn some holes through something to calm down...

[Scott Shepherd]

There's a interesting article about it all posted on engadget, here :

http://www.engadget.com/2013/05/09/adobe-creative-or-cloudy/

[Ruben Salcedo]

Scott,

the camera shake tool is a great addition, another one I'm wishing I have right know is to be able to use camera raw as a filter in separate (independent) layers... this features is going to be great also.

Ruben

[Chuck Stone]

The bottom line for me is the huge cost increase versus owning your own software.

This is why the move surprises me. They're watching and reading, but they seem to be ignoring
the complaints. Single product users don't benefit from this, although the power users might.
They say it costs less, but when you factor in the hardware upgrades to keep up with the
software, I doubt it. (and why else would you need to upgrade your hardware if it already
works for you?)

Photoshop is the industry standard for photos now, and has been for a while. But it wasn't
always. It took them a while to get there.. buying up the competition and then shelving the
products. (PhotoStyler, anyone?) but they still have competition in still image editing and
I think this move might be all the motivation creative programmers would need to come
up with more alternatives. Then what .. adobe sues them out of existence?

[Martin Boekers]

I wonder if there will be different Tax issues/benefits in effect you will be leasing instead of purchasing.......

[Mike Troncalli]

I wonder if there will be different Tax issues/benefits in effect you will be leasing instead of purchasing.......

Can be.. If you are a large company who would purchase say 1000 licenses then most likely yes. You would take that as a depreciable capital expense. But if you are just "leasing" the software then no it would be expensed and taxed a different way. NOTE - Tax experts please correct me if I am wrong...

[Jim Dawson]

2 things....

1) perpetual licenses are a myth.... one day your machine quits running and that old version you have needs updated for a new computer.

2) adobe is getting ready to release a $10.00 photoshop only version, and also a " photographers " suite for $19.99


That being said, we are on the $79.99 per seat plan and have 3 seats. We get collaboration tools and 100 gigs of online storage.

I seriously can't imagine going back...

[Ruben Salcedo]

Jim,

I totally agree with you.

and for the hobbyist or occasional user always there is going to be the option of Photoshop Elements that already have like 90% of the features of the professional version.

Ruben

[Joe Hillmann]

If your computer quits working you can always buy a new one and install an older operating system on it. (like when vista came out, many people tried it and went back to xp)

Even at only $10 a month that adds up to $120 a year. Before they switched to subscriptions how much did just photoshop cost?

[Ernie Balch]

Agree, I don't need to buy photoshop ever again. Photoshop elements is low cost and Corel photo paint is amazingly powerful and completely adequate for our sign, T-shirt and engraving work. I totally ignored Corel Photopaint until I found the AdvancedTshirts website. Their free training videos opened a whole new array of production tricks. I bought the advanced training package and found out how to prepare artwork much faster.


Jim,

I totally agree with you.

and for the hobbyist or occasional user always there is going to be the option of Photoshop Elements that already have like 90% of the features of the professional version.

Ruben

[Martin Boekers]

Sooo now they are going to have 2 versions of PS? That I hadn't heard yet. Is this the regular pricing or the special 1st year pricing to upgrade from CS6.

Yes it's a good deal for those at the upper usage, but those in the middle or lower end it gets costly.....

[Lee DeRaud]

Agree, I don't need to buy photoshop ever again. Photoshop elements is low cost and Corel photo paint is amazingly powerful and completely adequate for our sign, T-shirt and engraving work.My (admittedly minimal) "Photoshop envy" completely went away the day I discovered that PhotoPaint would run Photoshop plug-ins. Of course, I've now probably spent as much on plug-ins as a copy of PS goes for, but that's a separate problem. :cool:

[Martin Boekers]

2 things....

1) perpetual licenses are a myth.... one day your machine quits running and that old version you have needs updated for a new computer.

2) adobe is getting ready to release a $10.00 photoshop only version, and also a " photographers " suite for $19.99


That being said, we are on the $79.99 per seat plan and have 3 seats. We get collaboration tools and 100 gigs of online storage.

I seriously can't imagine going back...

I just got off Chat at Adobe.... They are not a where of 2 versions. $10 pricing is upgrade from CS6 for the first year then $20 amonth
If you have a previous version then first year pricing is $20 a month.

[George Brown]

I'm with you Chuck, I dislike having to upgrade. If it ain't broke, don't fix it, right? The "cloud" is just a scam to get my info, which I will not give up voluntarily and certainly not pay for them to take it. They can already take anything off the internet that I've posted anywhere, I don't need to give them more.

I agree with you completely Dee. I upgrade when I WANT to upgrade, not when they FORCE me to upgrade. I will never put any of my files in "the cloud", and will NEVER use a software that I have to pay for continually. I have software that I've purchased years ago, works just fine, no need for anything else. Under this new scam, I could not use it unless I paid for it continually. And there is always a choice, look at microsoft, people did not buy their buggy junk vista os and they were forced to continue to support xp until win7 came out.

I still have software (music recording programs) that run on win98, YES win98, VERY successfully, and can do everything that I need to on them. And I still use ms office 2003, and don't need anything else. Does everything I would ever need to do.

[Scott Shepherd]

I agree with you completely Dee. I upgrade when I WANT to upgrade, not when they FORCE me to upgrade.

No one's forcing you to upgrade anything. Buying the subscription gives you the ABILITY to upgrade, it doesn't do anything automatically. If you like CS6, when the next version comes out, you'll get the little notification that upgrades are available, and that's all. If you click it, you'll upgrade. If you don't click it, you don't upgrade. It's not that complicated, or automatic. No one's writing files to your computer without your consent, or updating things without your input. It's JUST like having the disc. It's installed by YOU, LOCALLY, not in the cloud.

In all fairness, those that are running CS3 or 2, or whatever, you're not their target market anyway. If you only upgrade your software every 10 years, why should Adobe cater to that, verses those that are updating every cycle? I don't think they'll miss your sales when you walk away because you're not buying anything from them anyway.

[William Adams]

Sooo now they are going to have 2 versions of PS?

There are currently 3 versions:

- Elements
- Standard
- Extended (adds Matlab integration &c)

[Curt Harms]

I agree. I hate to see it, but it's the way of the future and there's no way to stop it.

I'll bet there is ;). Let a competitor(if there is one) not follow that path and let a bunch of Adobe's customers leave for that competitor's product. Adobe will reverse themselves in less time than it took Microsoft to 'rethink' the interface/start button issue.

[Scott Shepherd]

I'll bet there is ;). Let a competitor(if there is one) not follow that path and let a bunch of Adobe's customers leave for that competitor's product. Adobe will reverse themselves in less time than it took Microsoft to 'rethink' the interface/start button issue.

Call me when that happens. There is little to no competition on their product lines. They are the industry leaders and what you'll see, more than likely, is everyone else following this lead instead of anyone trying to go against it and gain customers by offering things the "old" way.

[Jim Dawson]

trust me its coming.... you'll see it in june when they release the CC apps.

[Scott Shepherd]

trust me its coming.... you'll see it in june when they release the CC apps.

So what's the alternative? Corel? Search the forum and find the Corel X6 service pack thread and see the outrage from people because Corel was going to limit it's use to 3 computers. People on that thread said their never upgrade Corel again.

So no upgrading of Corel any more, no upgrading of Adobe products.

So let's see if I get the correct :

Scratch off the list of Graphic programs to use to run my business :

1) Corel products
2) Adobe products

Yeah, I think I'll sit this protest out. It's never, ever going to happen. People were outraged at Corel with that service pack and yet, it's still the same. No changes made by Corel.

I'm in business to make money. I have to upgrade to communicate with others in the industry that share files. I see ZERO problems paying someone $50 a month for the package that Adobe is offering. Let's be clear, it's not $50 a month for Photoshop. It's $50 a month for Photoshop,Illustrator, InDesign (which is AWESOME on laser files), Premiere (to make company videos to promote yourself), Flash, Edge, Business Catalyst (which allows you to create online stores really easy), Muse (which makes creating websites super easy), Dreamweaver, Acrobat (for making nice, electronic order forms for your customers), and about 10 more products. How that's a rip off for $50 a month, to run my business is a head scratcher to me.

[Martin Boekers]

There are currently 3 versions:

- Elements
- Standard
- Extended (adds Matlab integration &c)

Right now..... after talking with Adobe there will only be one version of PS by subscription, they will still be selling CS6 as a stand alone until further notice.
Elements and the Extended version will not be available by subscription....

[Martin Boekers]

trust me its coming.... you'll see it in june when they release the CC apps.

I am not in favor of Adobe's pricing, I wish they included an hourly package. What I do see is this to be a bigger threat to Corel.

Many of us use Corel because of our lasers, but now lasers are working with more programs. So if I run Adobe PS and Corel, upgrades cost
about $400 total every two or three years per computer. (computers that are being used at the same time) sooo.... it may be worthg while
to consider the Adobe package as much more software is included...... So if I would drop Corel and start using IA, then I would have a multitude
of other programs to use, as well as the latest and greatest.

If I work say 5 days a week 52 weeks a year and do, lets just say 10 jobs a day ( really I do much more than that but, wanted to keep it on the low side),
2,600 a year.... the the effective cost would be about $.23 per job.
Sooooooo realistically it does make it workable, it just cost me more as now it is a consumable instead of a fixed amount (except for upgrades when desired)

[Chuck Stone]

[QUOTE=Martin Boekers;2108117]

Many of us use Corel because of our lasers, but now lasers are working with more programs. So if I run Adobe PS and Corel, upgrades cost
about $400 total every two or three years per computer. /QUOTE]

I'm just curious as to why you HAVE to upgrade every two years.
If it worked two years ago, it should work now. and if you're not a service
bureau or work through one, your files can be saved in standard formats
anyway. I understand upgrades often simplify things you already do. But
if you already do them, is it worth the upgrade to you?

I kept up with Photoshop upgrades when I was doing editing and retouching
for photographers in the NYC area, but even then I understood that if I
were given the raw files, I didn't need the upgrades myself. I only needed
them for files produced by other people who already had the newer versions.
If I had my own Linotype Hell drum scanner, I'd have stayed on version 3 or 4
and would have done just fine. Output to TIFF, nobody would have known the
difference.
My personal copy was version 7 and while I can't do a few things like 3D files,
I don't miss not getting the upgrades because they're things I likely wouldn't
take advantage of anyway. And I can still do everything I need to do. There might
not be a 'one-touch' button for it, but I have always found those to be rather
ham-fisted tools anyway.

[Bill Cunningham]

I run X4 have found no real need to upgrade as yet, but Corel seems to check each time I start it..Sometimes it pops up a window offering me a upgrade discount, sometimes it starts right away, sometimes it takes 30-45 seconds to open, and can be a real pain when your trying to get stuff done. I have found if I unplug my usb internet adaptor, Corel comes right up every time. I don't know if it's stalling on purpose, or having a slow time loading whatever spy check it needs at the time, but I don't think my shiny new tinfoil hat is the problem.

[Martin Boekers]

Bill, the reason I uprade from time to time (not every one, I was on Corel 12 before I upgrade to X5)
it really is about efficiency. The quicker and more easily I can get something finished the less the
job cost me to produce. In Adobe CS6 part of the reason for upgrading was I was told (by Adobe) that
upgrades will only go back to 3 versions, if I wait until "7" I would have to buy a full version. I know now
that was pretty much a lie!

In Corel the "virtual segment tool" made it worth while for that alone. Could I achieve the same thing with
weld, intersect etc... yes but in an instant I get what I need with "VST" heck the smart fill is amazing.

On PS, the filters such as sharpen have a better quality, masking is quicker. he brushes you pick the size and
edge from a flyout instead of creating a new brush. This is a great help with using various resolutions.

So, If an upgrade saves me time I feel it is worth the investment. Will I consider "Cloud" yes will I subscribe...????
I have to figure out if It will make me more efficient enough to justify the cost. Upgrades for PS cost about $175.00
every 3 years.....PS CC will cost me $720 every 3 years.....

[Doug Griffith]

I migrated to PS from MacPaint when it first came out and know the version I use (CS3) like the back of my hand. Let's face it, Photoshop evolved to it's peak of usefulness many versions ago and almost all the new features are mainly fluff or niche. It did the same job then as it does now. I mean, really, how many new features are essential to doing everyday, business related tasks? We adjust the color, do some sharpening, blur here and there, clone, touch up a bit, composite, etc... Sure, some tasks become easier as the program evolves but we have to compare that to how adept we are at using our current version. For example, if I can do something with 3 key commands that are second nature to me and takes about a second and a half, why do I need a button that does the same thing with one click? The small learning curve to use the button probably isn't worth the time when my process gets the job done. Time is money and I personally don't have time to keep learning new ways to do what I already know how to do. That said, in my opinion, the move to subscription based software is all about increasing profit.

[Martin Boekers]

Doug, CS3 was a big jump from earlier ones. one issue here is a have 4 others on my staff that aren't so PS capable. I keep them on the basics,
Their computers are on 7, I have CS6, For the money it cost for the upgrade it was worth it to me, even for a few functions.

Adobe has always been bottom line $$$

[Matt Mackinnon]

Not a thread that I was expecting on what I assumed to be primarily a woodworking forum.

I have owned Adobe for some years now. I think I paid a good $2500 to buy my first CS package so that I could get Photoshop and Illustrator. It use to be every 2 years they would upgrade a full version number and cost about $400 for the upgrade. Then with CS5 they changed. A year later they came up with CS5.5 that basically brought the NEW Acrobat X software, and upgraded in my package the Web based programs. Photoshop and Illustrator were not touched. So I didn't upgrade. Why would you need to if the software you are using isn't getting touched. Then last year they released CS6 but stuck the screws to everyone who didn't move to the CS5.5 by saying they were 2 versions back and the upgrade went from the $400 to $800 as they were too far behind.

Later they started pushing the Cloud release as justified that move as it made an accounting sense for them. If they charge a monthly subscription, then the accounting dollars on R&D are written off in real time rather than needing to be accrued to the next release. It saved them money.

But what about all of us who paid thousands for their CS, and were basicly given a $10 / month for the first year only discount off going cloud. It was a shot to the pocket book for us non business users who bought rather than pirate the software as we have paid a premium to get the CS and now really get no re-coup for our dollars spent as we don't have perpetuity for the license and get virtually nothing as a thankyou for putting Adobe on top as if we all didn't pay, then they would not have the product they have now.

The argument about it stops piracy. I say BS, as it is just going to take a little time for someone to figure out how Adobe wrote the authorization check into their software and they will have a program that will pre-set it to think it's bought. I am going to pay for my legit upgrade from CS5 to CS6 for $350 and call it a day as it's at a level I can live with and it will do what I need. why pay more if they don't want to keep me as a customer. I'm just one person, and for every one of me, there are 2 people who have never bought before who see this cloud as a huge price drop in getting the software. $50/m is far less than $3500 one time hit to buy into like the old system.

[Jim Dawson]

If $30.00 a month for software causes you to not make money, you should throw in the towel......

[William Adams]

If $30.00 a month for software causes you to not make money, you should throw in the towel......

Because, of course, only people who are actively making money should be allowed to use the same tools as professionals, and the moment a person in the industry retires they lose all interest in working and there will never be a need for them to modify, look at or even open a design file again.

Every time I hear Adobe talk this up, I hear, ``That's a nice design business you have there. It'd be a shame if you didn't keep it all paid up and up-to-date, a real shame.''

[Scott Shepherd]

Looks like all the public pressure hasn't changed anything. Here's a blurb from one of the Adobe blogs on May 28 (I underlined the key point):

"We will continue to offer new innovation in apps and services on an ongoing basis, which is one of the top reasons members tell us they are subscribing. We were thrilled with customer adoption leading up to the announcement on May 6th, with over 80% of people purchasing on Adobe.com selecting Creative Cloud. That momentum continues today.
That said, through discussions with the community, we have heard some concerns around our move to Creative Cloud. Three main themes are coming through:



File access. Customers want to be sure that, if their membership to Creative Cloud lapses, they will still have access to their files.
Photographers, particularly photo-enthusiasts, are looking for a more tailored offering that focuses on their particular needs.
Some customers are not convinced that Creative Cloud is right for them and would rather continue to purchase desktop applications as before.



We want to start off by reinforcing that we continue to believe that the move to Creative Cloud will benefit the wider creative community because of the constant stream of innovation that we’re able to deliver. Creative Cloud also allows us to explore new areas in mobile apps, helping you collaborate better and build a meaningful worldwide community to share work and find inspiration. Because of this we have no plans to change our focus on Creative Cloud. We understand this is a big change and for customers who are not yet ready to move, we will continue to offer CS6 products through our reseller partners and Adobe.com."

[Lee DeRaud]

Translation: "We believe in the greatest good for the greatest number...the rest of you can pound sand."

[Chuck Stone]

"We will continue to offer new innovation in apps and services on an ongoing basis, which is one of the top reasons members tell us they are subscribing."


Interesting. I've never heard anyone say anything like that.






File access. Customers want to be sure that, if their membership to Creative Cloud lapses, they will still have access to their files.


And we all know that nothing ever goes wrong on the web and leaves people
without access to certain sites. So .. store on your own hard drive. Just like always.







Photographers, particularly photo-enthusiasts, are looking for a more tailored offering that focuses on their particular needs.


Sorry.. this one just reads like corporate double-speak. Lots of words that don't really say anything.





We want to start off by reinforcing that we continue to believe that the move to Creative Cloud will benefit the wider creative community because of the constant stream of innovation that we’re able to deliver. Creative Cloud also allows us to explore new areas in mobile apps, helping you collaborate better and build a meaningful worldwide community to share work and find inspiration. Because of this we have no plans to change our focus on Creative Cloud.


How many Photoshop users do you know of who want to "collaborate" with a worldwide community?
The power users now have very fast broadband for file transfers between a photographer, service
bureau, publisher etc. They don't even make prints anymore. (Beats the days when photographers
would send me files on Syquest, Bernoulli, Jaz, Zip disks by courier for retouching!) And most
others use very small files that easily attach to email. Collaboration via the cloud is a solution in
search of a problem.




We understand this is a big change and for customers who are not yet ready to move, we will continue to offer CS6 products through our reseller partners and Adobe.com."

So .. we can still do business. For now.
I'm no longer keeping up with Adobe, since I don't use it for a living anymore.
So opinions of people like me no longer matter. But then .. even when I was
spending a lot of money on their software.. my opinions didn't matter then either.

[Chuck Stone]

Because, of course, only people who are actively making money should be allowed to use the same tools as professionals, and the moment a person in the industry retires they lose all interest in working and there will never be a need for them to modify, look at or even open a design file again.

Can I vote for you?
You're my new short duration personal savior.



Every time I hear Adobe talk this up, I hear, ``That's a nice design business you have there. It'd be a shame if you didn't keep it all paid up and up-to-date, a real shame.''

I've heard similar things before. But usually it is by someone with a crooked nose and
their names always end in a vowel. Great nicknames, though..

[Lee DeRaud]

Collaboration via the cloud is a solution in
search of a problem.If you cut "Collaboration via" from that sentence, is it any less true?

The whole cloud paradigm is based on the premise that people doing productive work without constant Internet access (and constant exposure to the advertising smog that permeates it) is a Bad Thing.

[Chuck Stone]

If you cut "Collaboration via" from that sentence, is it any less true?

You're right of course.. but the collaboration is their point. (I think it's BS)



The whole cloud paradigm is based on the premise that people doing productive work without constant Internet access (and constant exposure to the advertising smog that permeates it) is a Bad Thing.

And who among us doesn't do productive work now .. with constant internet access
only a click or two away?

And how many of us are MORE productive when our browsers are open?
With the exception of perhaps researchers or web developers, I can't say
I know of too many people who are more productive. Learning? Sure.
Productive? For most, I think it is a distraction that bleeds time.

[Scott Shepherd]

You're right of course.. but the collaboration is their point. (I think it's BS)



And who among us doesn't do productive work now .. with constant internet access
only a click or two away?

And how many of us are MORE productive when our browsers are open?
With the exception of perhaps researchers or web developers, I can't say
I know of too many people who are more productive. Learning? Sure.
Productive? For most, I think it is a distraction that bleeds time.

I must have missed something. What does your browser or being connected to the internet while working have to do with it? It's been said dozens of times now that you don't have to be connected to the internet to run their new versions and you don't have to store anything in the cloud. I use my laptop all the time with it, and no internet connection. It's stand alone software that does nothing more than check with a authentication server every so many days, just like what CS5, and CS6, as well as CorelDraw do. If I installed Creative Cloud on your machine and didn't tell you it was Creative Cloud, you'd never know. It just give you the TOOLS to share, if you CHOSE to do so. It's not operating from the cloud, it's not storing all your files on the internet somewhere, it's nothing like that at all.

Do yourself a favor, download the free trail and try it. Then you'll understand it. I'm not suggestion you should buy it (or not buy it), but it will certainly clear up any issues about what it's doing and not doing.

The new photoshop is going to have a new photo upsampling option that should help laser engravers a great deal. Being able to scale up drawings with much better accuracy will be a huge help to this community.

[Chuck Stone]

I must have missed something. What does your browser or being connected to the internet while working have to do with it? It's been said dozens of times now that you don't have to be connected to the internet to run their new versions and you don't have to store anything in the cloud.

You did miss something. We weren't talking about how the program works.
We were talking about how Adobe is selling this online collaboration as a "feature".

"I want to get online and have other people see my photos before they're even finished"
Said nobody, ever.

And yes, I had sarcasm for breakfast.

[Scott Shepherd]

You did miss something. We weren't talking about how the program works.
We were talking about how Adobe is selling this online collaboration as a "feature".

"I want to get online and have other people see my photos before they're even finished"
Said nobody, ever.

And yes, I had sarcasm for breakfast.

Yeah, I guess all these people didn't get the memo.... http://www.behance.net

It's one of the largest art sharing sites on the internet. I guess I better head over there and tell them to stop doing it because no one does it.

(I had a sarcasm biscuit this morning) :p

[Doug Griffith]

I'd wager this is Adobe's evolution towards micropayments. It's just a matter of time.

[Scott Shepherd]

Might be Doug, might be. All the complaining is probably going to make them MORE money. They listed one of the complaints from Photographers not needing all those tools in CC. Oh, well, sure "We listened to our customers and we've created the Photographers Package Creative Cloud". Of course, it won't be $49.95 a month, it'll only be $34.95 a month and they'll make more money with less product than before.

They really do hold all the cards. Somewhere in my searching, I found an online petition against it. It had over 30,000 signatures at the time I looked. It was going to be sent to all the Presidents, etc. of Adobe. I think even the Board of Directors. Apparently it hasn't made much difference.

[Chuck Stone]

Yeah, I guess all these people didn't get the memo.... http://www.behance.net
It's one of the largest art sharing sites on the internet. I guess I better head over there and tell them to stop doing it because no one does it.
(I had a sarcasm biscuit this morning) :p

I didn't see unfinished works there (but I didn't spend hours either.. they might be there)
But nowhere did I see works that needed a collaborator, or even asked for one.

I'm all outta biscuits. But I may need a snack..

[Scott Shepherd]

I didn't see unfinished works there (but I didn't spend hours either.. they might be there)
But nowhere did I see works that needed a collaborator, or even asked for one.

I'm all outta biscuits. But I may need a snack..

I used it on Friday for collaboration. The customer I sent it to asked for a mock up. I created the mock up, sent them the link, they left comments on it, they cannot download it, they can only view it. I made the changes, sent it back again, their comments approved it and the job is done. I really like that part of it. It also keeps me from sending out jpeg's or PDF's that customers can shop around. Sure, they can always work around it if they want, but it makes it a little less easy.

Of all the features of it, that part is the part I look forward to using the most. It's very basic right now, so hopefully they will be expanding that side of it.

[Chuck Stone]

I used it on Friday for collaboration. The customer I sent it to asked for a mock up. I created the mock up, sent them the link, they left comments on it, they cannot download it, they can only view it.

Then I stand corrected. You're the first I've heard using it like that, but then it isn't really anything
I haven't been doing via email for 20 years. (I send them a web resolution version for proofing
unless I already have the money up front)

You still need to send them an email to let them know where to view it, right?
I'm really not seeing the great advantage.. although by now I'm perfectly willing
to admit that I'm just being contrary because it's fun.

[Frank Trinkle]

Just another Creative Cloud user from the beginning...and VERY SATISIFED.
As a woodworker hobbyist, Photographer, and videographer, the programs offered have been at far lower cost than upgrading each individually each year.
The price, IMHO, is an extreme value in the case like mine, where I was always upgrading at full price every time a new version was available. Additionally, I now have access to a number of programs that I otherwise would never have considered, but now use quite frequently.

+1 for Adobe Creative Cloud!!

[Ruben Salcedo]

Chuck,

one of the differences are that you actually saved them as a psd and if there is a need to make a change you just do it and saved it and the changes will reflect on the other side without re-saving to a jpg, another cool thing about saving to the cloud is that you can just go to a different computer in a different part of the world and keep working on the same file, also there are Photoshop apps for tablets and phones where you can create or do basic edits to psd files kind of cool too.

EDIT to add, another benefit that I forgot to mention is that the other party will be able to turn off and on layers, this way you can save different versions of elements for the client to review etc. you cannot do this with a jpeg.

Ruben

[Scott Shepherd]

I'm really not seeing the great advantage.. although by now I'm perfectly willing
to admit that I'm just being contrary because it's fun.

Chuck, I'm with you, believe me. I'm on record in a number of places saying I'd never ever go to the cloud for this. I only signed up because I had a "limited time offer" and it was about to expire and I felt like I wanted to see it and understand it for myself (so I could hate it, officially, instead of just on concept :) ). What I didn't expect was how much I love it.

Muse is a fantastic tool for creating website. It's so much easier than dreamweaver (even though you get dreamweaver too).

I guess it all depends on your use. My plans- create web site using muse, integrate it with shopping cart using Business Catalyst, create videos for online content for our business, using After Effects and Premier Pro, and then use Photoshop, InDesign, and Illustrator to run our graphic files. For $50 a month, that's a bargain. But then again, I'm using it to run our business. I have a long way to go to get all that stuff working, but that's my plan and that's why I see the value in it. I have a customer that just signed up for some online shopping cart that is super easy and they pay more than $50 a month for that service. For what they pay for that one product, I get everything. To me, as a business person, there is value in that.

If I had no plans to grow my business or push our image, then I probably wouldn't share the excitement. I think it's got some awesome tools in the package. Granted, I'll be 140 years old before I figure it all out, but that's a different story :)

[Mike Null]

Granted, I'll be 140 years old before I figure it all out, but that's a different story

I am 140 years old and I still haven't figured out Corel.

[Jim Dawson]

Just another Creative Cloud user from the beginning...and VERY SATISIFED.
As a woodworker hobbyist, Photographer, and videographer, the programs offered have been at far lower cost than upgrading each individually each year.
The price, IMHO, is an extreme value in the case like mine, where I was always upgrading at full price every time a new version was available. Additionally, I now have access to a number of programs that I otherwise would never have considered, but now use quite frequently.

+1 for Adobe Creative Cloud!!


Im there with you.... love it...

for all you detractors out there, Adobe released Cs3 for free a month or so ago. No license and no time limit. Grab yourself a copy and be forever stuck in 2008..... for FREE!

[William Adams]

Adobe released Cs3 for free a month or so ago. No license and no time limit. Grab yourself a copy and be forever stuck in 2008..... for FREE!

It was CS2, and it wasn't free, it was intended only for people w/ CS2 licenses:

Top search result for ``Adobe CS2 License'':

http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-13727_7-57562515-263/adobe-releases-creative-suite-2-for-free/


UPDATE, 2:40 p.m. PT: There has been clarification since this story broke. Adobe has not released the CS2 software for free. Instead, it has canceled its CS2 license management servers, so for those with existing licenses it is now offering downloads that do not require contact with the licensing servers. This service is only going to be available for those with existing Adobe CS2 licenses, which will be verified when creating the Adobe account to download the software.

Official statement here:

https://blogs.adobe.com/conversations/2013/01/update-on-cs2-and-acrobat-7-activation-servers.html


...to ensure that any customers activating those old versions can continue to use their software, we issued a serial number directly to those customers.

Unambiguous statement by an Adobe official (post #37):

http://forums.adobe.com/message/4979305


There is no change. The software and serial numbers were posted for use solely by existing legal Adobe licensees of CS2 and other products of that era (i.e., purchased licenses for these products from Adobe, authorized resellers, or via registered with Adobe transfer from such licencees) who need to reactivate their software (such as having to reinstall due to system failures, etc.) and for no other purpose whatsoever, despite the apparent wishful thinking of many.

[William Adams]

Whether or no Creative Cloud has nifty features isn't the issue --- the issue is whether or no one is willing to make one's livelihood dependent on whether or no a monthly credit charge went through successfully (there have been a number of instances of such being rejected for suspected fraud) and whether or no the software can phone home successfully each month.

Further, what if Adobe decides to abandon development of one tool in favour of another? They haven't guaranteed every tool will always be available. Do a search on software Adobe has orphaned or abandoned.

[Tim Bateson]

... Adobe released Cs3 for free a month or so ago. No license and no time limit. Grab yourself a copy and be forever stuck in 2008..... for FREE!

I'll take that deal! I've been using a 2000 version CS for 13 years. It does everything I need it to do, but a free version of CS3 makes it worth upgrading. "If it ain't broken...." :cool:

[Scott Shepherd]

the issue is whether or no one is willing to make one's livelihood dependent on whether or no a monthly credit charge went through successfully (there have been a number of instances of such being rejected for suspected fraud) and whether or no the software can phone home successfully each month.



How's that unlike your internet service, your cell phone service, your electricity service, your water service, etc? Don't pay your company cell phone bill and see where that goes. I see so many people complain about the cloud, and then they send emails using gmail (cloud based email), google's phone service (cloud based phone service), etc. They pay their bills online with online banking and think it's one of the greatest things ever (cloud based). We use it in every aspect of our lives and most people love it. I clicked on an email address from a repeat customer yesterday. Right clicked and said "Add to contacts". Within seconds, my desktop, laptop, and phone all has his contact info on it. To me, that's the power of the cloud.

I pay more for my cell phone than I do for my Creative Cloud package. While I like my phone (some days), it's not as important to my business as all that software is.

[Martin Boekers]

Scott, a question about how you are uploading and clients can have access to your work. How is that different from an FTP site that technology developed decades ago?

[Scott Shepherd]

You can't comment on things ftp'd. The file is sent. This allows me to take a photoshop or illustrator (or anything else) file and send a link to the customer. I can restrict access, I can prevent downloads, etc. They can have as many people as you want involved to comment on it. It's like a mini-forum for that file. It allows many people to have input on one thing, or a group of things, and it's all shared.

It's not at all like ftp. I don't think it's anything revolutionary to Adobe. That collaboration method has been done by a number of other people. I think Corel has something built into it as well, but I've not used it.

Real life example. We have a customer that used to be our largest customer. We took the blame for several of their people not doing their jobs (bosses demanding to know when products would arrive, and they were told it didn't arrive because our company didn't do the job on time, when in reality, they only asked for quotes and never placed the orders). After that exchange, they began asking us for mock ups. We had provided them for years because they were a solid customer. Then we noticed things we mocked up were getting done by other companies. So they just asked for a mock up for a new job. I knew they were asking for it because the job was out of town and no one in their office knew the specs to give to other sign companies. I did the mock up (pulled from previous file already done, so no time creating new things), put it out there, sent it to them, put the "don't allow download" on it, and asked for the approval. This was a shot across the bow to them that they weren't going to steal our artwork and shop it around any longer. I know they don't have anyone there smart enough to screen capture, so in this case, I knew I was good.

Got the P/O by the end of the day. So it was most helpful to me. Could I have done that 10 other ways? Sure, but this was already there, and easy to use, so I used it.

[Martin Boekers]

We worked with FTP in the trade show industry for years. The company I worked for was a leader in the industry. FTP and
email follow ups were how it worked. We to limited access through passwords and time windows. We basically were on conference calls
as they viewed the site so we talked through the process. Everything was documented and approved through production sign offs.
Believe me things were thorough, as most projects were $200,000 upwards.

No, we couldn't comment on the site per say , but we worked through conference calling. That was 20 years ago, I haven't had cloud service to experience it.
Do othere providers of "cloud" based storage have similar features?

Things were different with larger agencies as they had the support and legal staff to deal with usage issues. "Snip it" make quick copy easy that most can do it simply.

Smaller "Mom & Pop" shops have a bit more trouble as for limiting costs for items, now it will be a working expense, that will have to be passed on. It will be interesting
though now that Corel is moving towards subscription. For those that use PS and CDR individual costs can be abou $450.00 for one set of each. Now that lasers are more
adaptable
to using IA would it not make sense to join Adobe and drop CDR? Much more value for the $$$. The issues I face as I have 4 workstations, so that could cost $240 a year each for
PS and $200 a year ea for CDR. Most all work involves email at some point. "Cloud" things are difficult for approval ina Gov environment.. ;)

[William Adams]

How's that unlike your internet service, your cell phone service, your electricity service, your water service, etc? Don't pay your company cell phone bill and see where that goes.

If I miss a payment on my landline phone, electric or water, they resubmit the bill, if that doesn't work, they send a shut-off notice, then, after that time has elapsed, they turn it off --- Adobe disables your account immediately, and your software disables the next time it phones home.

No second chance, no warning, no grace period.

If the phones are off at work, change orders stop coming in and work gets done w/o interference until they're back on.

If the software won't run, work comes to a halt and we start sending hourly employees home.

[Martin Boekers]

If I miss a payment on my landline phone, electric or water, they resubmit the bill, if that doesn't work, they send a shut-off notice, then, after that time has elapsed, they turn it off --- Adobe disables your account immediately, and your software disables the next time it phones home.

No second chance, no warning, no grace period.

If the phones are off at work, change orders stop coming in and work gets done w/o interference until they're back on.

If the software won't run, work comes to a halt and we start sending hourly employees home.

I guess a bigger thing is if Adobe would charge a "Restart Fee"

[Scott Shepherd]

Okay, I'll bite. If you don't need it for 3 months, you stop paying for 3 months. If you need Photoshop for 1 project that lasts a week, you can get it for a month and cancel it, so you'll be saving money. There is no restart fee, you can rent it month to month if you like. You can pick and chose when you have access to it.

You can complain until the cows come home, it's not going to change. Adobe's track record of listening to complaints like this is non-existent.

[William Adams]

That's why I'm choosing not to give them any further business if I have a choice --- I was planning on buying Hypatia Sans, I won't now. I was considering a FreeHand/MX license for Windows in addition to a Mac OS X license --- that's off the table.

If I can't be productive w/ open source tools such as LaTeX, Asymptote, METAPOST, NodeBox, Processing, &c. I'll switch back to doing calligraphy and letterpress and woodblock printing and woodworking w/ hand tools and sell my CNC mill.

Enjoy not having any design tools except when you're paid up.

[Glen Monaghan]

How's that unlike your internet service, your cell phone service, your electricity service, your water service, etc?

It is very much unlike your internet service, cell phone service, electricity service, water service, etc. If one of them goes belly up, you can quickly and easily (well, maybe not in some rural areas, but most places) sign up with another company to provide essentially the identical service. If Adobe croaks, drops CC, or gets bought by a competitor who trashes the CC suite, you're SOL. With pre-CC, at least you aren't dead in the water with no working software if for some reason your cash flow dries up or the company drops support.

[Scott Shepherd]

It is very much unlike your internet service, cell phone service, electricity service, water service, etc. If one of them goes belly up, you can quickly and easily (well, maybe not in some rural areas, but most places) sign up with another company to provide essentially the identical service. If Adobe croaks, drops CC, or gets bought by a competitor who trashes the CC suite, you're SOL. With pre-CC, at least you aren't dead in the water with no working software if for some reason your cash flow dries up or the company drops support.

There are MANY programs out there that will open various Adobe files. If Adobe went belly up, you could switch to competitors products fairly easily. So it's no different than your example of switching competitors. Keep in mind, you don't own the software you currently use either, you only license it.

[Tim Bateson]

I think for a large portion of software users, we like the status quo of buying software and having "unlimited" (within the license agreement) use of it for as long as we desire. Pay-To-Play just feels ... uncomfortable. Maybe in the future we'll all be forced to the "cloud" model, but until then we choose to opt-out. This coming from a techie that has spent his career on the leading edge. It's an individual choice & for me there just isn't yet enough new (needed) features to cause me to make the leap.

[Scott Shepherd]

I agree, it's a decision we all have to make. For us, with our clients, we have no choice. A number of our clients are early adopters and if we don't follow them and make doing work for them easy and painless, then they'll move to the next guy. Also keep in mind, when we bought CS4, the non-upgrade price was $1800. $1800 in a month, all at one time, is a lot of money to get a package of software. Especially at the point we were at when we needed it. We didn't have $1,800 extra to spend. If we could have paid $50 a month instead, it would have helped us on a cash flow basis. We could easily justify the $50 a month out of cash flow, but $1,800 meant I wasn't getting a pay check.

We're also not hobbiest. We run a business. If we can't afford $50 a month, then we'll be shutting the doors because we have bigger problems, and once that happens, I'll have no "need" for it. I might have a "want", but not a "need". My cell phone is $80 a month (or something like that). I'll take my Adobe package over my cell phone any day. I can create much more revenue with my software than I can with my cell phone.

You might not like it, but think about how many young people or students can now get Photoshop for the price of a couple cups of coffee a month instead of shelling out $600 for it at one time. It will open up a lot of people to software that was previously out of financial reach.

[Martin Boekers]

I agree, it's a decision we all have to make. For us, with our clients, we have no choice. A number of our clients are early adopters and if we don't follow them and make doing work for them easy and painless, then they'll move to the next guy. Also keep in mind, when we bought CS4, the non-upgrade price was $1800. $1800 in a month, all at one time, is a lot of money to get a package of software. Especially at the point we were at when we needed it. We didn't have $1,800 extra to spend. If we could have paid $50 a month instead, it would have helped us on a cash flow basis. We could easily justify the $50 a month out of cash flow, but $1,800 meant I wasn't getting a pay check.

We're also not hobbiest. We run a business. If we can't afford $50 a month, then we'll be shutting the doors because we have bigger problems, and once that happens, I'll have no "need" for it. I might have a "want", but not a "need". My cell phone is $80 a month (or something like that). I'll take my Adobe package over my cell phone any day. I can create much more revenue with my software than I can with my cell phone.

You might not like it, but think about how many young people or students can now get Photoshop for the price of a couple cups of coffee a month instead of shelling out $600 for it at one time. It will open up a lot of people to software that was previously out of financial reach.

As someone who runs a small business, it may seem like $50 a month isn't much (That's by itself) Add the addition cost going up such as gas, electric, water trash removal etc.
it does finally add up as a whole. With upgrades It cost me a third of what PS would by subscription. (last upgrade was $179.00) firest upgrade I did in 3 years. & yes we could
of financed it if we liked to keep it a monthly expense instead of paying all up from, which you could of done with your purchase of a new Suite.

As far a student pricing goes....... I think there is a bit of marketing there don't you think? Get them started out learning your product at a price the can afford so when they
hit the real business world chances are better for them to buy your software instead of a competitors? I would have to check but I believe CC still has educational discounts...

Corel is offing it both ways stand alone or subscription.

Scott, Adobe should hire you on weekends for trade show, chances are you are better promoting their products and how to use them than they are. :)

[Scott Shepherd]

Scott, Adobe should hire you on weekends for trade show, chances are you are better promoting their products and how to use them than they are. :)

I'm not promoting their products Marty. I've never been a big fan of their software. I think it's WAYYYYYYYYYYY too complex for the average user. I've had Photoshop for 4 years now and still can't use it. I've done so many online courses, I can't count them all, and still today, I rely on plug-in's to do the things I should be able to do with ease, but I can't because my retention of it isn't high enough.

I do, however, acknowledge that their suite is a VERY powerful suite. I do think it has a lot of value. However, it's also not right to watch statements be made repeatedly that are false when it comes to Creative Cloud. It's been mentioned over and over that all your files are stored on the cloud and how people didn't want any part of that. I've said it about 10 times now and it still keeps getting restated, that it's all cloud driven. It is NOT. It's NOT a cloud based software program. ALL of their software titles are INSTALLED LOCALLY. There is one piece of software called "Creative Connection" or something like that, and you have to install it. If you don't want to, don't install it. Even if you do install it, all it does it create a virtual drive on your machine to save files to.

I'm fine if you don't like it, or don't like the model. I understand that, but we should be repeating mistruths about what it is and isn't. I said it some posts earlier, there's a free trial, try it. Don't like it, stop using it. But to say how horrible it is without ever trying it doesn't do anyone justice, in my opinion.

[Glen Monaghan]

There are MANY programs out there that will open various Adobe files. If Adobe went belly up, you could switch to competitors products fairly easily. So it's no different than your example of switching competitors. Keep in mind, you don't own the software you currently use either, you only license it.

I think it is quite different. I've been put in this situation twice before, once with a paint-type program and once with a video editing program. Even though there were other programs available that could open or import the discontinued programs' files, the learning curves were very steep and old habits hard to break. Work flows changed and disrupted progress, sometimes I still catch myself trying to use a feature or do something the way the old software did it...

Maybe you're just more mentally agile than I am, but I don't think many people who have become adept at one paint program, video editor, vector graphics layout, or other similar programs can "switch to competitors products fairly easily." Much harder than switching power companies, phone companies, or even cell phones.

But maybe I'm just being grumpy and contrary... I will let it go...

[Scott Shepherd]

How's that any different than our Xenetech rotary engraver that runs proprietary software? It's running Windows 95 because in order to upgrade, it will cost $6,000 to get the "new" electronics package that allows it to run on newer machines.

[Martin Boekers]

I understand Scott, I was just kidding you on promoting! New tech is always difficult to embrace (at first) I too am not a fan of Adobe products,
but sometimes there are no choices if you want to do business. I just wish they would do what Corel is doing and offing it both ways.

[Kim Vellore]

If all the SW folks do the monthly like windows OS will need a monthly fee,Corel or google a monthly to use them and we accept it soon no one will be able to afford any monthly except big companies and hobbyist by hacking. The model might change instead of monthly a small percentage of your paycheck (bi-weekly). Just a weird prediction.
Kim

[Dan Hintz]

<chuckle>
http://fstoppers.com/adobe-photoshop-cc-has-already-been-pirated-in-just-one-day

A bit faster than I had expected, but not by much...

[Chuck Stone]

yeah.. not surprising.
nor are the comments .. all the usual arguments are there

[Curt Harms]

Okay, I'll bite. If you don't need it for 3 months, you stop paying for 3 months. If you need Photoshop for 1 project that lasts a week, you can get it for a month and cancel it, so you'll be saving money. There is no restart fee, you can rent it month to month if you like. You can pick and chose when you have access to it.

You can complain until the cows come home, it's not going to change. Adobe's track record of listening to complaints like this is non-existent.

Or not :)

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/06/19/adobe_q2_customers_disappointed_with_no_boxed_ware s/


Clearly top brass at the company were living in er…cloud cuckoo land when they revealed last month that future Creative Suite versions would only be web-based, a move that went down badly (http://www.channelregister.co.uk/2013/05/09/adobe_creative_suite_channel/) with some channel partners and their customers.

The impact of this metamorphosis into SaaS provider was apparent in Adobe's Q2 sales, which slumped ten per cent to $1.01bn as net profit dived 66.8 per cent on a year ago to $76.5m.




THAT may get 'em to listen.

[Chuck Stone]

"We are using our Adobe Marketing Cloud technology to manage
and optimise the Creative Cloud customer acquisition process,"

Never trust people who talk like this.

[Scott Shepherd]

Or not :)

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/06/19/adobe_q2_customers_disappointed_with_no_boxed_ware s/



THAT may get 'em to listen.

I doubt it, they almost never listen to customers.

Since I'm a CC subscriber, I downloaded a number of the new apps Tuesday. By the end of the day Tuesday, I had a little icon telling me updates were available. I clicked on it, it had 4 "bug fixes" already available, which I thought was pretty darn impressive. Now, if they could just fix the bugs I have found that fast, we'd be in good shape.

I still have the old version installed, so it hasn't stopped me from working, but it was interesting to see bug fixes coming so fast. It's welcomed, and should be expected anyway, but up until now, I'd never seen that sort of time frames on bug fixes.

They aren't going to change, it's adobe. Google them and see how often in their history they have bowed to customer outrage or demand. Not many.

[Lee DeRaud]

"We are using our Adobe Marketing Cloud technology to manage
and optimise the Creative Cloud customer acquisition process,"

Never trust people who talk like this."Optimize the customer acquisition process"...that just gives you a warm tingly feeling all over, doesn't it?

Like a lobster in a pot of hot water.

[Chuck Stone]

I still have the old version installed, so it hasn't stopped me from working,

It wouldn't surprise me to find that this is one of the future 'bug fixes'

[Chuck Stone]

Like a lobster in a pot of hot water.

LOL!
coffee/nose warnings, please..

[Martin Boekers]

I doubt it, they almost never listen to customers.



Ahhh, this may be true, but will they listen to stock holders...... :D

[Scott Shepherd]

Ahhh, this may be true, but will they listen to stock holders...... :D

I doubt it. Maybe they will prove me wrong. I have been keeping up with it a fair amount and it's the most I've ever seen customers scream about anything like this before. The screaming is so loud, it's clear that they have heard the screaming and it appears to concern them to some degree.

Whether that means they change the policy or dump a ton of money into a massive marketing campaign to make them feel better, time will tell.

The problem with the "bottom line" numbers is that there are a lot of young people that are really excited about it now because for $30 a month, they can get Photoshop CC, and that's exciting to them, when prior to this, it was out of reach at $700. I've seen a lot of posts by young people who love it. How much that offsets the loss of people not signing up has yet to be seen.

[Chuck Stone]

The problem with the "bottom line" numbers is that there are a lot of young people that are really excited about it now because for $30 a month, they can get Photoshop CC, and that's exciting to them, when prior to this, it was out of reach at $700. I've seen a lot of posts by young people who love it. How much that offsets the loss of people not signing up has yet to be seen.

I don't think the $700 figure has ever kept it out of reach of the younger users. Just us old folks.
Photoshop has been a consistent zero day release since the old BBS days. I can remember the
alt.binaries forums being full of real and fake images done by hoardes of kids with bootleg copies.
Literally tens of thousands of kids bragging about where they got it and the fact that nobody would
do anything to them since they were minors. And they justified it by saying they were giving Adobe
free advertising, figuring out the bugs etc. I'm sure we're seeing a whole new crop of users coming
up, but even now the workaround is out there so I doubt price is the factor.

[Scott Shepherd]

Chuck, that statement I made was based on the number of "kids" I've seen post comments on various forums or articles, where they said they were so happy to finally be able to run legal copies of it, rather than having the pirated versions. So they do seem to be converting some of the younger kids into going legit with the monthly pricing.

I don't care what they do, I'll go whatever direction they go, because I think it's powerful software and we do need it for our business. I've never installed a pirated copy of their stuff, and don't plan on it.

Now, if they would just fix the bugs in Illustrator, I'd be happy.

[Chuck Stone]

Chuck, that statement I made was based on the number of "kids" I've seen post comments on various forums or articles, where they said they were so happy to finally be able to run legal copies of it, rather than having the pirated versions. So they do seem to be converting some of the younger kids into going legit with the monthly pricing.

I forget that $30/mo is a lot different to them than it is/was to us!

I remember having one high school student working part time in my store. I couldn't
get her to show up a lot of the time. She had to HAVE a job, but that didn't mean
she wouldn't give away her shifts. If she didn't have the job, she lost her allowance.
($280/week!) $30/mo. would have caused me to look really hard at how much
work was coming in that I couldn't do with some other software.

[William Adams]

I'm curious as to how much ``churn'' Adobe sees in sign ups --- also, there're still 30 day free demos, no? How often can those be installed?

[Dan Hintz]

I'm curious as to how much ``churn'' Adobe sees in sign ups --- also, there're still 30 day free demos, no? How often can those be installed?

If you run inside of a VM, indefinitely...