Buying a square: Starrett or 1281?

[Gary Oney]

I have decided to break down and buy a quality square, as my cheap big-box combination square, which seemed close enough when I bought it, has gotten out of alignment, which I assume was wear on the sliding mechanism. My primary needs are a simple, reliable 90 degree square angle and I want something longer than a 6" try square. I've narrowed my choices to the Starrett C11h-12-4r and the Woodpeckers 1281, as both have a good reputation for quality & squareness, both have clear and accurate measurements, and both are about the same price.

I lean toward the 1281 because I do not need the flexibility of a combination square (90 degrees reliability is 99.9% of my intended purpose) and Woodpeckers offers a lifetime guarantee for squareness. However, I waffle on my decision since the Starrett is steel versus the 1281's aluminum construction, and I know the square will drop on the concrete someday. On the other hand, I worry about wear on the sliding mechanism of the Starrett causing it to lose squareness in time, and I've been told it is very expensive to recalibrate.

Any thoughts appreciated that would push me over the top either way.

[Dave Novak]

I love my 1281, and it just happens to be on sale right now.

[george wilson]

I only recommend solid,fixed blades for squares. Starrett makes all kinds of squares of all types. I have fixed blade Starretts from 2" to 24" blade length. I don't like aluminum. Too easy to damage.

[glenn bradley]

If you only need a square, go fixed. If you also use it, as I do, for scribing lines in from a reference face, checking or setting depths and heights, transferring unknown measurements, etc. get a combo.

[David Weaver]

Also not a fan of the aluminum blades. Buddy of mine had a "Certified" aluiminum square, nice and big, good for woodworking, something like 8 or 10 inch blade on it, and compared to a certified starrett fixed square it was not nearly as close to square as we thought it was. In fast, it was not as close to square as a shop made wooden square would be even if it moved due to a change in climate.

The best way to go about squares is to know someone who has a good certified machinist square and then test used or imported squares against theirs. Then you can end up with 20 good squares for the price of their one.

I have, like george (george has everything), one of the enormous starretts ("Brutus"). Brutus is like the final judge of all of my cheap squares big and small, and brutus was checked against a friends brand new certified square to be sure brutus hadn't been damaged (brutus cost me $19 on ebay, courtesy of a deceased collector of decomissioned navy and government contractor tools). I don't care to have that kind of accuracy intentionally, especially in a square that no normal person could actually pick up with one hand and use, but it is nice to have and it opens up a world of easy jig making and fine tuning of cheap steel framing squares.

http://www.starrett.com/metrology/product-detail/Precision-Measuring-Tools/Precision-Hand-Tools/Squares/Solid-Squares/20-24

Starrett has lightened the beam a little bit since brutus was made, and I am by no means advocating that anyone every spend even a fraction of this amount, but do look for old fixed tools that don't have any dents, etc.

[Casey Gooding]

You can't go wrong with Starrett. They can be had on the bay for a fraction of new.

[Greg R Bradley]

Based upon your intended use, the 1281 fits your needs. For general 90 degree use, the 1281 is very nice to use since it will sit in place on the work unlike the others.

Let me put it this way: I have Starrett and PEC 4" and 6" double squares and 6", 12", and 18" combination squares. I have a Starrett 20-12 and have brought home Starrett 20-18 and the $1500 20-24 mentioned by David. Even having those, I went out and paid money for a 1281.

I do think you will also want an adjustable double or combination square for the reasons outlined by my brother above. I would buy a small adjustable double or combination square for those needs. There are some incredible deals on PEC seconds from Harry Epstein. Here is the deal of the year: http://store.harryepstein.com/cp/ProductsEngineering/7104-4R.html
For $3 more you can have a 6" or buy both in case you want to "save" two depth/distance settings.
If you want the traditional 2 piece combination then buy this http://store.harryepstein.com/cp/ProductsEngineering/7131-4R.html instead of the $100 Starrett from the usual sources. You usually have to look hard to find why they call it a second and the name or model being ground on won't hurt its function.

I prefer granite master reference squares or a granite surface plate to the Starrett 20 series reference since a 20-24 is really a weapon that can hurt you or your work pretty easily. David was not kidding about being unable to pick one up with one hand and they are SHARP!

There is a real difference between the tools for precision metal work and what is nice to use on wood as I continue to learn.

[David Weaver]

Thanks for the links Greg!!! I've got a favorite old starrett that's limping now because it's been dropped and partially broken, this is perfect timing.

you're not kidding about the 20-24 dinging work, it will do a lot of damage in a second. Drawing blood is inevitable at some point, too, but it makes a shoot board the most trivial project in the world.

[Gary Oney]

Wow, thanks to all of you for all the great advice. Very appreciated!

I think you guys have convinced me on the wisdom for a "reference square". I'm probably going to buy the 1281 for that purpose, then try to find a good fixed steel square to take over that function, freeing up the 1281 for daily use. Meanwhile, I followed Greg's advice (thank you) and placed an order for the PEC 4" & 6" double squares, as well as the 12" combo square from Mr. Epstein, that I can immediately put to work for everyday use.

This will be great going from one poor, out-of-square combo to a nice assortment of good squares, and I can add some used engineer's squares with more confidence once I have a reference square.

[Greg R Bradley]

I probably should have added one more link. If you buy the 1281 from Carbide Processors and use the discount code "creekers" you will get an additional 10% off the current sale price of $89.99. You will also get a free tool with purchase. You will also support a Sawmillcreek sponsor and deal with another company with great tools and customer service.

Links:
http://www.carbideprocessors.com/precision-square-12-x-8-woodpeckers-1281r/
http://www.carbideprocessors.com/Free-Gift-With-Every-Order/

[george wilson]

I have some squares made by Chris Vesper in Australia. They are very well made and accurate. Probably cost as much as a Starrett,but good squares.

[Christian Castillo]

My most used square is a starrett 6" combination square but you're about to make me go get a Vesper square George :), I can always say: " George Wilson has a few and look how great he is!" :D.

I am by no means implying that Vesper squares will make me 1/100th as good as George, I just need some more ammo for justifying the purchase.

[george wilson]

Most of the wooden musical instruments I have posted here ,and other 18th.C. style items,were made using a wooden square I made at work. I NOW have all kinds of machinist's squares which I use in machine shop work,and for setting up wood working machines. Since they are there,I just also am likely to pick one up and use it for wood working,too. The real big steel squares,like David said,are quite heavy,and dangerous to use on wood projects lest you ding the wood with the heavy square.

The little 6" Starrett steel square is handy for wood working,as are the Vesper squares in 6",8",and smaller sizes. If they have grads,they are always metric,though. I have a small Vesper that has metric grads.

If you must have a combination square,buy the Starrett that has the HARDENED head. It will stay truer longer. I don't think any adjustable square is as accurate as a solid steel one,though. I check my squares these days with granite masters,but in the old days,I just checked them by scribing a line,flipping the square and re checking,like everyone else does.

[glenn bradley]

Thanks for the links Greg!!!

Thanks for the link!?! Thanks for the link!?! My brother just cost me $60. Thanks for the link he says :D.

[Derek Cohen]

.. and I want something longer than a 6" try square.

Hi Gary

My two user squares are 4" (Chris Vesper) and 8" (Colen Clenton) in length. The 4" gets most use for joinery. Prior to the 4", my preference was for a Starrett 6" double square. I'm not suggesting you purchase these - they are pricey - just that these are the sizes I find best.

I do have a couple of 12"/300mm Starrett combo squares, but they only get used on machinery. Combo squares are very versatile - useful as a depth gage and transferring measurements. I have one of Chris Vesper's 2 3/4" versions and recently picked up a 4" Moore and Wright.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Chris Griggs]

Thanks for the links Greg!!! I've got a favorite old starrett that's limping now because it's been dropped and partially broken, this is perfect timing.


No Kidding! That's a GREAT deal. I've been needing to upgrade from my junky borg combo square. This will go well with my 6" double from WC which I'm pretty sure is PEC second itself. I've been finding myself wanting to hold multiple settings a lot lately so I grapped a 4 also. Another case of "saving money" leading to a lighter wallet. Please....nobody else point out any good deals until next month.

[Frederick Skelly]

I got that Starrett for Christmas. I like it quite a lot. I dont know if Id have bought it for myself at that price if there was a viable alternative. But quality tools are a real joy to use and this ones no exception.

[Mike Rother]

Thanks for the Harry Epstein link!
Question:
does anyone know if this is a Starrett blade?
http://store.harryepstein.com/cp/ProductsEngineering/7192-24.html

thanks

[Chris Griggs]

Thanks for the Harry Epstein link!
Question:
does anyone know if this is a Starrett blade?
http://store.harryepstein.com/cp/ProductsEngineering/7192-24.html

thanks

That is made by PEC (Product Engineering Corp)

[Gary Oney]

I received my order from Harry Epstein Co today. The 4" & 6" double squares are great - very high quality build, smooth action, and dead-on accurate. Blemishes are small and insignificant.

I had less luck with the combination square, with a problem that goes well beyond a blemish. First, it was about 1/32" out of square over 90 degrees. Also, it appears the manufacturer made a poor quality cut for the slot for the blade (the slot cut into the head where the blade sits - not the groove running the length of the blade itself). The result is that the blade sits crooked in the square, and the node? (the part that slides along the blade groove) cannot not ride in the groove as intended. Because the blade tilts, the node only rides the edge of the groove, and it seems to throw everything out of square. I made an illustration below to show what I mean, as if looking down the end of the square:

261775

I contacted Harry Epstein and they agreed to send a replacement upon receipt of the return. And they claimed that PEC is more reliable than my experience would suggest. I hope I just got an unlucky square, and the next one is better. It's a shame, because otherwise the square seems very well made.

[Greg R Bradley]

I originally switched to PEC from Starrett due to production problems in the $50-100 Starrett squares. I'm sure the Starrett items like a 20 series Master Square are still made the same way they have always been made but we were much happier with a PEC $50 two piece 12" combination square than the equivalent Starrett that was not made the way they use to. I have three PEC squares at work that were bought at regular price. When I found the deal at Harry Epstein, I bought five more mostly for woodworking and other projects. The seconds from HJE are virtually identical to the firsts except for the name or model number crossed out. They have all been checked against Starrett 20 series master squares and are very accurate.

Based on the 30-40 PEC units bought in a business, the 3 I bought personally, and the 5 seconds I bought from HJE, I would say they are right about them normally being better than your experience. Perhaps the seconds should be checked more at HJE. I've bought a lot of other items from them and always been happy. The closest thing I've had to a complaint was that they were a bit frugal on packing one order. It was packed securely but someone spent a bunch of time taping two used boxes together to ship that order instead of buying a normal box. Perhaps that frugal nature helps their prices be so good. I hope everything works out for you.

[David Weaver]

I got the 12" square and a 6" double square.

The 12" combination square definitely isn't as precisely made as a starrett at the junction of the head and the rule, but brutus says it locks up dead square.

The double square is less so, but it's plenty square enough to do what I'm going to do with it - use it to check squareness of irons, and about the same price as a small chinese double square would be at rockler up the road.

I did want the 12" square a lot more, though, due to dropping my vintage starrett several times and breaking off the finger that locks it tight. It (the starrett) still will lock square but it is a major bear to move the rule in it. Fortunately, brutus approves of the more important square.

I'd take a picture of it tucked in the corner of brutus but there isn't a person on this board who could hold brutus and another square up to the light with one hand and take a picture with another. I don't know that I could do it with two.

[Chris Griggs]

This (http://www.woodcraft.com/product/2000434/95/pinnacle-6-double-square.aspx) is the 6" one I got several years ago from WC - I guess its the "pinnacle" label now. Anyway, it sure looks a lot like the the PECs, though I have no idea who actually makes it...I think WC contracts out there house brand stuff so I wouldn't be surprised if it is a PEC. When I got it I checked it against a couple Starrets in the case and it was as square as they were (though guess that's not the same as a Brutus). In practice its always seemed to be square and its what I use as my shop reference for square (if for instance shows that my footprint square is not as square as it is). My the 4" and 12" PEC seconds should be arriving today and tomorrow. I don't have a "true" reference, but I'll check them against themselves, each other, and against the 6" from WC when I get them and report back. I expect them to be just fine, hopefully they won't let me down.

[David Weaver]

The "pinnacle" square looks just like the double square that I got yesterday. I couldn't guess how far off the double square I got is, but I guess I could check with a feeler. A couple of thousandths is probably a good guess over 6", but for $15 and just needing something beat around, i'm not disappointed in that, especially after finding the 12" square is dead nuts on.

[Chris Griggs]

Just got my 4" and 12" square. the 4" is identical to the "pinnacle" brand 6" I have. No question they are the same maker. (though oddly the 12" has a different paint color; gray instead of blue)

Just quickly checking squareness holding the 4 against the 12". They match up as square as anything I can tell on all possible reference surfaces. I'll check them more at home, but they sure seem dead nuts square to me (at least at 4" out, we'll see how it looks at 12" out)

[Greg R Bradley]

Pinnacle is Woodcraft's house brand so the tools are made by lots of different companies. I am quite sure the Pinnacle double squares are PEC including the paint color. The 12" combination square is also a PEC painted black on the one I examined.

The HJE seconds will be blue if they were being made to be sold as PEC or Fowler brand. The gray ones were being made to be sold under another brand name.

David,
I have never had to send anything back to HJE but have heard they have an excellent reputation for standing behind their products. If the double square isn't right, they should get you another without question.

[David Weaver]

It's plenty close for my purposes. I haven't remember to measure it because I haven't been in the shop, but I'll bet it doesn't approach a hundreth at full extension.

When I bought my starrett square used, i was arguing with a lot renter at an antique shop near home. It cost me $50 with centering head and protractor, which was fine until I dropped it several times. It was probably close to worn out, but the guy wanted $75 for it and we went through some bizarre bargaining where I told him I'd offer $50, and he said he wouldn't do it, then countered with an offer for it and a moore and wright square for less than my offer. It's hard to argue with someone who bargains against themselves.

Anyway, $35 for both square, the one I wanted dead nuts is just that, and the one that only needs to be close is also plenty close. I'm pleased with the whole transaction.

[Chris Griggs]

The HJE seconds will be blue if they were being made to be sold as PEC or Fowler brand. The gray ones were being made to be sold under another brand name.


Interesting. I was able to make out about half the name that was scratched off my gray 12" combo square which was enough to find it with a google search. Its a Mitutoyo. Never heard of them, but as long as its adjustable and square (and 45 degrees) where its supposed to be that's all I care about. So the same company make all these brands?

[David Weaver]

I don't want to be rude, but I'd be pretty unhappy if I got a mitutoyo square and it wasn't made in japan.

[Gary Oney]

Received my 1281. Very impressive, although the mdf display case seems a bit overkill. I took it to a friend who works in a machine shop, and we tested it for square against a certified square they have. It was dead-on accurate for 90 degrees and parallel blade.

One note for someone considering the same dilemma as my original question of combination versus 1281: The blade of the 1281 is pretty thick (about 1/4"), so it probably is not well suited for accurate measuring/marking. This did not matter as much to me, since I own an Incra Precision Marking rule for that purpose. It's best use is probably as a check for square, although marking a line at 90 degrees would be no problem either.

In all, I am still glad that I was able to add several squares, as it gives me the flexibility to use the right square for each job. Once I receive the replacement PEC Combination Square, I would envision that being my primary square for general use, with the PEC Double Squares good for machine setup and depth checking, my Incra Precision Square for accurate marking, and the 1281 as a large, reliable check for square.

[Chris Griggs]

it appears the manufacturer made a poor quality cut for the slot for the blade (the slot cut into the head where the blade sits - not the groove running the length of the blade itself). The result is that the blade sits crooked in the square, and the node? (the part that slides along the blade groove) cannot not ride in the groove as intended. Because the blade tilts, the node only rides the edge of the groove, and it seems to throw everything out of square. I made an illustration below to show what I mean, as if looking down the end of the square:

261775


I just noticed that the slot on the head of mine appears to have the same issue. Its like it was milled out of alignment at least on outside edges of the groove. At first glance it looked like it would have the same problem, but on mine the problem appears appears to be only cosmetic (as far as I can tell for now). The blade moves just fine and locks down just fine on mine. Its a bit disconcerting, but again, so far everything appears 100% functional and for $20 I couldn't care less how it looks. Will definitely take a few extra minutes to make sure there are no issues once I get it into the shop though.

[David Weaver]

Mine also has just a little bit of lack of perfection in appearance when you look through the slot. But the same as yours, it still locks up square and moves freely. With the extra room that's in the whole slot area, I figured it's just a less tight manufacturing process than the one on the vintage starretts, but if it's square, that's good by me.

[Gary Oney]

It's a little disconcerting that you two also have a problem with the slot on the combination square. I wonder if they were all part of a batch run with a problem? The PEC 4" & 6" double squares seem to have been milled properly, with clean, parallel lines in the slot. Heck, even my cheap Swanson combination square I am replacing has a slot that is milled parallel.

BTW, the one I received that had a problem was also painted grey instead of blue.

[Chris Griggs]

Okay so just to report back. I just popped down to the shop and did the thing where you mark a line referancing against a straighted piece of wood, flip the square and check for alignment. No its not a machinests test but its the best I got.

- The 4" is as dead nuts on as this checking method can show.
- My old 6" is actually no longer on. I held it up to my new squares and at first thought they were the issue, but my 6" seems to be the one that's off...I shouldn't be suprised since its proabably been knocked off my bench a zillion times. Anyway, its still close enough but the new ones are squarer
- The 12" is sorta a mixed bag. Most importantly is that the blade sits nuts on square to the reference face on the head. Again using the flip the square test when I mark a line all the way out with the square one way it matches up when I flip it. Also, virtually no light gets through when I hold the 4" and 12" up to each other. However the mismilled slot does cause the blade to sorta lean to one side of the head. It doesn't appear to be twisted in the head or affect marking like Gary's is. I didn't in anyway notice the lean in use, but when I hold a double square up to the side of the rule I can easily tell its leaning.

So yeah, there you have it. On one hand I've come to expect "blemished seconds" to mean cosmetic only, and the problem is in some ways more than just cosmetic which is a little disappointing. On the other hand I paid only $20 for a heavy duty combo square that lets me mark and measure what appears to be pretty dead square where it matters, so I can't really complain and honestly since it does what I want I'll just keep it and use it happily. Still really a very good value...way better than a BORG square. BUT certainly not the same standard as a Veritas cosmetic second for instance.

[Jacob Reverb]

Starrett for me.

Your grandkids will be handing it down.

[Andrey Kharitonkin]

Given the dropping prices of small CNC machines from Asia it is tempting to think if one can making such squares himself... though I wonder whether anodizing is possible at home.

[lowell holmes]

I just sucked it up and bought a Starrett several years back. I'm glad I did every time I use it. It was worth the price.

IIRC, Starret is made by Althon. I have an Althon, which is indeed, identical. If I had realized that, I might not have bought the Starret. The squares are pretty much identical.