Sanding Swirls with festool ETS 150

[Craig D Peltier]

Hi, I have a Festool 6 inch orbital that I usually keep 120 girt on it. I have sanded a lot with this sander. I cant stop from getting sanding swirls, doesnt matter if its brand new paper or old. Brand new is a for sure for them though. I have it sped up to full speed, I have dialed it down as well. The slightest pressure causes them. The harder I push the worse they are ( which is expected). If theres and uneven joint and I want it to sand it down by pressure its hard to get the swirls out afterwards. I am using Rubin 2 paper sanding birch or western maple or walnut for the most part lately.
Is the festool paper too thick? The holes too thick of edges that cause the swirls? The pad maybe too stiff ( I think its a medium)? 5mm orbit too big? Suggestions?

A friend of mine has a Makita that doesnt make the swirls, his holes on his sandpaper are much smaller than the Festools.

[Matt Meiser]

The local Festool rep here draws lines on the white part of the pad with a Sharpie so that you can see if you are putting enough pressure on the pad to stop from orbiting. He says the results are enlightening.

[Chris Padilla]

I would hazard a guess that you are bearing down on the sander too hard. Let the sander do the work...not you. Also, try dialing down the suction of the vacuum although that mostly helps if the sander is sticking to the work with finer grits but it is something to play with.

[Greg R Bradley]

I would hazard a guess that you are bearing down on the sander too hard. Let the sander do the work...not you. Also, try dialing down the suction of the vacuum although that mostly helps if the sander is sticking to the work with finer grits but it is something to play with.
Chris probably has the solution exactly right. "More pressure" ?, you shouldn't need any. Is the vacuum dialed up too high?

[Chris Merriam]

I always turn my vac down all the way, doesn't seem to float well enough if I turn up the suction at all. (and don't get me started on my DTS-400, that thing gets glued down to the surface with the slightest pressure)

[Craig D Peltier]

Chris probably has the solution exactly right. "More pressure" ?, you shouldn't need any. Is the vacuum dialed up too high?
Its is dialed all the way up.

[Julie Moriarty]

I use Granat and sand to 180 or 220 grit. My vac is dialed to about 1/2 power. I've never seen swirl patterns but never apply any real pressure, just enough to control the sander.

[Jeff Monson]

The local Festool rep here draws lines on the white part of the pad with a Sharpie so that you can see if you are putting enough pressure on the pad to stop from orbiting. He says the results are enlightening.

That's a good tip, I'm guilty of putting too much pressure on the sander, especially as Craig stated "when trying to level out joints". Let the sander do the work.

[Greg R Bradley]

Its is dialed all the way up.
I generally use my Fein Vacs with my ETS150 so I'm not 100% sure how that translates to Festool vacs. I can't recall ever using anything above half power. I think the vac is stopping the RO action, causing your swirl marks. Isn't the sander trying to hop around at that much suction? As a test, how about using no vacuum and see if the swirl marks go away?

As Chirs Merriam said, my DTS400 is used with the suction at minimum.

[Chris Padilla]

I have a Rotex and the 150/3 although I almost always use the 150/3. I only sand up to 180 grit with the Festool Rubin sandpaper. I also have the CT/11 vacuum (yes, no longer made by Festool and smaller than the /22 and /33...got a really good deal on it) so I don't know if the suction is different but the suction knob is at max 99% of the time. At the same time, I'm not sure I've ever lowered the rotational speed of my sanders below max, either. Occasionally, I will use the Brilliant sandpapers, which can get very fine although not specifically meant for wood. Anyway, I have never encountered swirl marks. It is possible your sander might be bad...not rotating properly? It is that or your technique as I mentioned earlier.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Its is dialed all the way up.
I had swirl marks when I tried to use a vacuum dialed all the way up as well. All that suction pulls the sander very hard into the wood; well, hard enough to leave swirl marks.

[Dan Hahr]

I don't have any fancy Festoolmuchmoney sanders, but I don't get swirl marks in my finished projects either. However, I don't even use 120 grit on wood unless I am trying to shape something. I start with 150 if it is really rough and do see swirls if if tried to finish it at that point. Unless your sander is always moving back and forth directly with the grain of the wood, it is going to make swirls. The point is to make sure they are small enough so that the naked eye can't see them. I usually finish my projects off with a light run of 220. If I screw up and get some big grit or trash under the pad, I will see some swirls, but otherwise, I've seen nothing but smooooth.

If you think your sander doesn't leave any swirls, wipe some dark stain on maple and look at it with a magnifying glass.

Dan

[Alan Lightstone]

I don't get swirl marks with my 150/3, thought I often forget to turn down the vacuum on my Festool Vac. FWIW

I have Rubin or Rubin 2 up to 180 grit, Brilliant from 220 to 400 grit, and Granat or Titan 2 from 400 to 1200 grit. Man, that's a lot of sandpaper. I never go past 220 or the first Brilliant pad on bare wood. The rest are used between coats, or for starting to rub out finishes.

I've never paid attention - are the Festools forced rotation (like a Flex polisher), or can bearing down on them stop rotation (like a PC polisher)?

[Ken Krawford]

Craig, I also have the ETS 150 and have experienced the same problem. Tried everything that you did to no avail. I even sent it back to Festool but no joy. I pulled out my old PC 333 and no swirl marks. This was my first Festool purchase and needless to say I was quite disappointed. The problem is not consistent and many years later I still have probelms occasionally.

[Joe Scharle]

I've been using Klingspor on my 150 for the past 3-4 years. And since my schedule is 120 -180, I never noticed until I read this thread. Yesterday I played with some scrap cherry using 120 grit and found that if I pushed down I could see swirls under BLO, but not if I let the sander do the work. Which is the way I usually finish sand.

[Todd Burch]

With my ETS 150/3, I consistently get swirl marks with 120 or more coarse. I have learned that 150 grit is the minimum, for me, for my pressure and my vac's suction, to not get swirl marks.

Having to sand a maple staircase, 3 times, is when I learned my lesson.

[Wade Lippman]

Craig, I also have the ETS 150 and have experienced the same problem. Tried everything that you did to no avail. I even sent it back to Festool but no joy. I pulled out my old PC 333 and no swirl marks. This was my first Festool purchase and needless to say I was quite disappointed. The problem is not consistent and many years later I still have probelms occasionally.

I was thinking of "upgrading" my 333s to Festools because I am a bit sick of the vibrations; but if they leave swirl marks...

So, what is a ROS that doesn't vibrate, but doesn't mind if you use a strong vacuum?

[Todd Burch]

I got rid of my 333's. Dust collection isn't that great with them, nor is the ergonomics.

I have found the softer the pad on the Festool, the less the vibration. I believe there are 3 firmness levels sold, with the medium being the one you get by default. I have a hard pad on right now, and after an hour of use, my hand and wrist "ring" for a bit afterwards. I bought a medium pad to replace this hard replacement I have, but have not installed it yet. I also bought a new 150/3 recently, so now I have an old one ('2004) and a new one to compare for vibration, but have not got the new one out yet to run a side-by-side comparison.

Swirl marks, IMHO, are just part of the process. If you were using a belt sander, with a coarse grit, you would still get scratch marks - but they would just be straight. If the grain is straight, they aren't as noticeable, but if the grain angles on your board, they are absolutely noticeable.

I can't imagine a ROS that didn't vibrate. I think this is like asking for a belt sander that doesn't spin the belt.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

I was thinking of "upgrading" my 333s to Festools because I am a bit sick of the vibrations; but if they leave swirl marks...

So, what is a ROS that doesn't vibrate, but doesn't mind if you use a strong vacuum?

if you don't like vibration, have you tried the CEROS sanders by Mirka?

http://www.woodcraft.com/product/2083198/33931/ceros-5-compact-electronic-random-orbital-sander--dc-motor.aspx

They are setup to test at Woodcraft and Rockler, nice setup. Pricey, but nice.

[Rick Fisher]

If you're getting swirly's .. Switch to Garnat paper for your final grit.. It sounds too simple but it works..

Garnat will leave a smoother surface than ALO .. but it cuts slower.. Its much less likely to leave swirls, even if you apply uneven pressure.

[Craig D Peltier]

Thanks for the replys. I guess I hate to sand and want to get it done :) I will try to use only weight of sander, turn down suction and finally eventually only use 150 for the most part unless needed otherwise. I was told by a high end finisher here to never use 120 on plywood either, only 150-180.

[Chris Padilla]

Here is a guide to the various Festool abrasives. They have some stuff I wasn't aware of...I couldn't be the only one, right?! :D

http://www.festoolusa.com/media/pdf/abrasives_brochure.pdf

Another interesting link:

(http://www.festoolusa.com/media/pdf/abrasives_brochure.pdf)http://blog.festoolusa.com/post/2011/02/18/Granat-Festools-New-Wonder-Abrasive.aspx This one is about the Granat.

[Alan Lightstone]

I really don't see any if I finish the last sanding with the Brilliant 220. But perhaps too fine to use with some finishing schedules.

Also, I really don't push down hard, which may be the better answer.

[Alan Lightstone]

Here is a guide to the various Festool abrasives. They have some stuff I wasn't aware of...I couldn't be the only one, right?! :D

http://www.festoolusa.com/media/pdf/abrasives_brochure.pdf

(http://www.festoolusa.com/media/pdf/abrasives_brochure.pdf)

I have that laminated on the inside of the door on my sandpaper cabinet. It has guided my Festool sandpaper purchases.

[George Octon]

In my experience, you get swirl marks, period. You get rid of swirl marks by sanding out the previous ones with a higher grit. I can't imagine not getting swirl marks at 120 grit.

[glenn bradley]

I think the Creek has got you covered:
- Let the sander do the work, you don't need any pressure beyond the unit's weight.
- Move about an inch per second, fast movement creates swirls as the desired scratch-pattern is being overridden by your travel speed.
- Move up through the grits from the coarsest required to start the job through each grit till the scratch-pattern from the previous grit is gone.
- Clean off the surface between grits to assure you aren't dragging an errant piece of coarser grit along with your next finer grit level.
- Low vac suction, I have an adjustable collar on mine that "vents" the suction to adjust it down.

[Steven Lee, NC]

for faster material removal I move to lower grits instead of using more pressure. 120 to me is for removing marks left by 100, not for fixing an uneven surface

[Mel Fulks]

I've mainly used air powered sanders and they are sold in at least three different orbit sizes. I suspect too large an orbit size is at least part of the problem.

[John TenEyck]

You buy a high priced tool and you are restricted to what grit sizes you can use in order to avoid swirl marks? Glad I didn't buy one. I use 80 or 100 grit all the time on my Bosch ROS65VC and never get swirl marks. Nor with any other grit. The on board canister is so good at dust collection there's no reason (for me anyway) to hook it up to a vacuum.

John

[Rick Christopherson]

The local Festool rep here draws lines on the white part of the pad with a Sharpie so that you can see if you are putting enough pressure on the pad to stop from orbiting. He says the results are enlightening.This is the exact opposite of that you want to do. When you stop the rotation of the pad, you no longer have a "random orbit sander" or aka "dual action sander". It then becomes just an orbital sander.

With good random orbit rotation, it isn't that the swirl marks go away, but they are less round, and therefore less visible. If you look at the scratches under magnification, the ones most visible are round, and the ones that are hardly visible look more like a "V" with only a tiny loop at the apex. The best example of what they look like is one of those ribbon magnet/stickers you see on people's cars. Kind of like the shape below.

274580

[Matt Meiser]

No kidding. That's why he recommends making the marks so you can see if you are doing it.

[Rick Christopherson]

But as written, your posting was telling people that they should try to stop the rotation.

[Michael Dunn]

I think the Creek has got you covered: - Let the sander do the work, you don't need any pressure beyond the unit's weight. - Move about an inch per second, fast movement creates swirls as the desired scratch-pattern is being overridden by your travel speed. - Move up through the grits from the coarsest required to start the job through each grit till the scratch-pattern from the previous grit is gone. - Clean off the surface between grits to assure you aren't dragging an errant piece of coarser grit along with your next finer grit level. - Low vac suction, I have an adjustable collar on mine that "vents" the suction to adjust it down.

Nail on the head!!! I've the RS-2E, ETS-125, DTS-125, DX-93, and the RO-150. Everyone of them will give NASTY swirl marks if you love too fast. IMHO, this is biggest culprit to swirls. I had changed everything else mentioned to no avail. Once I slowed my hand to about 1"-2" per second the marks were gone. That simple. Now having the patience to keep that rate is another story.

Side issue... I recently a wired the RO-150. What a beast!!! Anyway, I may be crazy, but I think this sander, in Rotex mode, may require a faster rare of movement with your hand.

Anyone have a similar experience?

[Michael Dunn]

But as written, your posting was telling people that they should try to stop the rotation.

Not the way I read it. I took it like he said the rep demonstrated what happens when you apply too much pressure. As in, what not to do.

[Mike Kelly]

I found this old link as I have been trying to re-learn how to sand with a new Festool ETS EC 150/3 EQ. I was trying to finish a hickory project and kept getting swirls no matter what I did. I even purchased a RTS 400 EQ thinking it would be more of a straight line sander. Both had issues big time for me. After refinishing a tabletop 4 times going from 120, 150, and 180 grit. Low suction, high speed, whatever gave me swirls. I finally gave up and went to my old PC 333 and Makita pad sander and guess what? No swirls. This wasn't my first Festool purchase, but I am still disappointed. I did return them. Several comments to improve were to sand up through 320 to get rid of swirl marks. At 320 the hickory would be so smooth that stain would not absorb!

[Mel Fulks]

Mike,I am not familiar with the Festool model numbers. But I've found that even the people who order for commercial shops are sometimes not aware that orbital sanders are available in different orbit sizes. Maybe the sander has the large orbit.

[Chris Padilla]

I have a 150/3 and use it quite a bit as it is my go-to sander for just about everything. I have never had any swirl problems that I'm aware of so I can't really imagine what the heck is going on with your sander(s). It is interesting that you're having problems with both sanders so I'm leaning towards your technique. Now ROS do naturally cause swirls but that is why you keep going up in grits to get rid of the previous grits swirls. For maple, I stop at 180 and all is well. Sometimes I stop at 120 and I'm still fine. I assume you are using the Rubin sandpaper?

Do you have any pictures that could show us the swirls, Mike?

[Bruce Page]

There's more to it than working through the grits. You must also clean the work piece and pad to prevent one grit from contaminating the other. I always thoroughly blow off and wipe down the piece between grits. I have the 150/3 ETS and a full vacuum, non-VS Fein T3. I do not get any swirl marks.

[Michael Dunn]

I ended up switching from Festool abrasives to Indasa. Much cheaper and ended up with what I felt was a much better finish.

[Alan Lightstone]

3 years after my earlier posts, and I still don't get swirl marks with my ETS 150/3. I'm thinking it must be technique.

I learned sanding from first learning how to polish Ferraris and Lamborghinis, without having the owners kill me by damaging their soft paint jobs. Great motivation to learn good technique with a rotary sander. Much of that carries over to easier to use ROS.

I'm still thinking too much pressure and too much vacuum.

[Michael Dunn]

Every time I thought there weren't swirl marks, there were. I can't imagine me using a lighter touch or a slower movement. Darker stains tend to magnify the swirles.

I typically had to finish by hand with a sanding block.

[Mike Kelly]

341957
Here is what happened no matter what I did.
The orbit is 3mm. Vacuum was at minimum and pressure just enough to guide sander.

[Mel Fulks]

Have not read all replies here. But the first thing I would try is faster movement of sander.

[Prashun Patel]

In fact the first thing I would try is slower and lighter movement of the sander.

All swirls for me come from moving too fast and hard. It's worse if you have to use rough grits to do any leveling. Prepping well so you can start at 120 or 150 helps.

[mark mcfarlane]

341957
Here is what happened no matter what I did.
The orbit is 3mm. Vacuum was at minimum and pressure just enough to guide sander.

Mike, on the right side of the pic I can see shadows of the outside of the sanding pad, but only the top of the circle. That could happen if the sander was weighted to one side rather than applying uniform vertical pressure. Did you start the sander in the air and drop it on the board, or start it while it was in contact with the board?

The smaller (orbital) circular scratches in the middle of the photo look very deep, as though there was some loose abrasive 'sharp crap' on either the board or paper when you started sanding. I don't think you would get that kind of 'very localized pattern' due to a sander or technique defect. As mentioned previously, did you try cleaning the board, pad and sandpaper before starting sanding? Have you tried rubbing your hand over the sandpaper to see if the surface feels irregular? Maybe you got a bad batch of paper, or some dirt in the paper storage. Are you using Festool paper?

If you bought the sander from a brick-and-mortar store, maybe you can take it back, along with your bad sample board and a fresh board and chat with the folks, try a different sander, or return the sander if you are in the 30 day window.

[mark mcfarlane]

Mike, This might be helpful, the first minute covers swirl marks with the ETS 150/3. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZZyypf-Qqk Watch the whole video :)

Also, do yo have a vac connected to the ETS?

[Alan Lightstone]

Thanks for that link, Mark.

I always wondered if Festool made any sanders equivalent to the forced rotation orbital sanders like the Flex I use for car polishing.

I never realized that's what the Rotex is in "coarse" mode. Just learned something.

That being said, that Rotex really is a beast. I rarely use it.

[Chris Padilla]

Yeah, that pic looks like something possibly up with the sandpaper. I have never gotten or seen such marks on anything I've sanded with my 150/3. What grit sandpaper made those marks? How deep are they. Can you drag your fingernail across them and feel them? They look pretty deep.

On a side note, what kind of wood is that? Looks a bit like zebrawood but I don't think it is.

[Martin Wasner]

On a side note, what kind of wood is that? Looks a bit like zebrawood but I don't think it is.

Looks like oak with stain on it to me.



A random orbit sander is functionally incapable of not leaving swirl marks. All you can do is minimize them by going up in grit. Oscillation speed being cranked up helps, I think that's what Mel is talking about. Quality abrasives are a must as well. When a piece of the grit breaks off and gets trapped on the sheet creating a high spot, that chunk can cause more swirls than normal.

I don't have experience with what impact a vacuum has.

I don't think using as little pressure as possible is the answer either, but I've got nothing to base that on other than gut feeling.

[Mike Kelly]

Mike, on the right side of the pic I can see shadows of the outside of the sanding pad, but only the top of the circle. That could happen if the sander was weighted to one side rather than applying uniform vertical pressure. Did you start the sander in the air and drop it on the board, or start it while it was in contact with the board?

The smaller (orbital) circular scratches in the middle of the photo look very deep, as though there was some loose abrasive 'sharp crap' on either the board or paper when you started sanding. I don't think you would get that kind of 'very localized pattern' due to a sander or technique defect. As mentioned previously, did you try cleaning the board, pad and sandpaper before starting sanding? Have you tried rubbing your hand over the sandpaper to see if the surface feels irregular? Maybe you got a bad batch of paper, or some dirt in the paper storage. Are you using Festool paper?

If you bought the sander from a brick-and-mortar store, maybe you can take it back, along with your bad sample board and a fresh board and chat with the folks, try a different sander, or return the sander if you are in the 30 day window.

Thanks Mark. I turned the sander on while on the board. (Both the ETS EC 150/3 and RTS 400.) I took it off the board before removing power. I cleaned between each grit with a vacuum of the sander and board and wiping of the board. I used Festool Rubin2 sandpaper out of a brand new box. I went from 120, 150 and 180 grit. Each attempt to sand used new paper. I used slow movement with very little pressure and very low vacuum. After three attempts at staining of this project using Festool products, I went back to my old PC 333 and Makita pad sander with no dust collection which I have used for at least 20 years and the problems disappeared. I was also told I should go at least to 320 grit to get rid of swirls. The hickory would not take much stain at 220 which I also tried. So I am stuck with dust in the air still. I returned the sanders to ToolNut. They have been great through the whole ordeal.

[Bruce Page]

341957
Here is what happened no matter what I did.
The orbit is 3mm. Vacuum was at minimum and pressure just enough to guide sander.

I have seen marks like that when sanding previously finished/painted wood. The finish will load up on the paper and cause the swirls. That piece of wood looks like it has a finish on it.

Mark, that is an excellent video. I wonder what that wall behind him would sell for! :eek:

[mark mcfarlane]

Thanks Mark. I turned the sander on while on the board. (Both the ETS EC 150/3 and RTS 400.) I took it off the board before removing power. I cleaned between each grit with a vacuum of the sander and board and wiping of the board. I used Festool Rubin2 sandpaper out of a brand new box. I went from 120, 150 and 180 grit. Each attempt to sand used new paper. I used slow movement with very little pressure and very low vacuum. After three attempts at staining of this project using Festool products, I went back to my old PC 333 and Makita pad sander with no dust collection which I have used for at least 20 years and the problems disappeared. I was also told I should go at least to 320 grit to get rid of swirls. The hickory would not take much stain at 220 which I also tried. So I am stuck with dust in the air still. I returned the sanders to ToolNut. They have been great through the whole ordeal.

Sorry Mike. Sounds like you are doing it all 'correctly'. I haven't had this problem (yet) with my ETS or other 2 Festool sanders. If the problem only occurred on a single sander I'd blame the sander. Maybe a bad factory run of the paper (seems unlikely), or a gremlin in your shop. At least you could take advantage of the return policy.

[Mike Kelly]

Bruce, the hickory started out as bare wood and a stain was added 4 times after it was taken back to bare wood to get rid of the swirl marks. The Festool sanders are so good with dust extraction that the sandpaper does not "load up". That is one reason I bought them. They are fine expensive machines, they just did not work for me here. With my older PC I had to continually vacuum the pad to keep it from loading up even with dust extraction attached to the dust port.

[Bruce Page]

The Festool sanders are so good with dust extraction that the sandpaper does not "load up". That is one reason I bought them. They are fine expensive machines, they just did not work for me here. With my older PC I had to continually vacuum the pad to keep it from loading up even with dust extraction attached to the dust port.
Mike, that has not been my experience. The sandpaper will quickly gum up when sanding off a painted or previously finished surface, even a stained surface. I see it all the time when sanding a lacquer seal coat or paint finish off of signs I made on my cnc. Typically, I will blow the gum flakes off the paper with high pressure air but sometimes I have to use a brass brush to remove them. I have never seen any load up when sanding bare wood.

[Mike Berti]

Most Random Orbit sanders will leave swirl marks to some degree. Mine (Rockwell and Makita units) do it sometimes as well. The motion of the sanding paper is of such nature. But we don't always see the marks and sometimes they are pronounced. One factor that was correctly mentioned is the pressure we apply. Another is when little chips of wood, old paint, or varnish get caught and burried in the sanding paper. These tiny spots will leave swirl marks. It depends on the wood surface and the sand paper. The solution is gradually working up in grits and using clean pads. It is worth preparing the stock before sanding.
A good solution is to use belt sanders when possible. They don't have this orbital move and the results will be cleaner.

[Mike Kelly]

Mike, that has not been my experience. The sandpaper will quickly gum up when sanding off a painted or previously finished surface, even a stained surface. I see it all the time when sanding a lacquer seal coat or paint finish off of signs I made on my cnc. Typically, I will blow the gum flakes off the paper with high pressure air but sometimes I have to use a brass brush to remove them. I have never seen any load up when sanding bare wood.

Bruce, this was just a stain, not any finish or paint. Didn't have a problem with the Festool but I did with the PC.

[Kevin Jenness]

When I first used my ETS 125, no problems with swirls. After a few months, I had consistent half-moons that required hand sanding to remove. After reading this thread I dug out the handle for my Fein floor sweep, hooked it up in line and opened the valve to reduce suction. Result, no swirls. So, thanks for the guidance.

[jack duren]

Agree...It's a orbital sander. There's no way to eliminate, only get to a point they are almost invisible. I would look into recommended papers for the sander of choice...

[jim sauterer]

I know this is an old thread but I was xperiencing the same swirls after watching the video mark referenced to in my case it was improper sanding by me thanks for posting the video mark

[mark mcfarlane]

I know this is an old thread but I was xperiencing the same swirls after watching the video mark referenced to in my case it was improper sanding by me thanks for posting the video mark

You are most welcome Jim.

[glenn bradley]

I love it when historical threads still add value. Good job all.

[Dave Sabo]

Too large and orbit and not a high enough grit to get rid of previous marks.

To much suction can also contribute.


If theres and uneven joint and I want it to sand it down by pressure i

This is poor/improper techinique. Let the sander to the work, not your weight. If it's not fast enough for you without puching down , use a lower grit paper. If it's still not fast enough for you, get a more aggressive sander. Like a rotex. With lower grit paper. Stop bearing down on your sander.