scratch stock stock

[Noah Wagener]

what type of steel is suitable and or customary for scratch stocks? I have some old saw blades and 1/32" 1065 spring steel. Seems like it would be too think. I also have old plane blades but no way to soften them to file contours. Also, does one put a burr on a scratch stock like a card scraper?

Speaking of steel, has anyone used that new (new to me) steel from Lee Valley that has outrageous claims of superiority in every quality? It is called like pmv 311 or something.

Could anyone describe what "cast steel" is too? I found some thick old plane blades at an antique shop that both say "warranted cast steel". One is from A.C. Bartlett and the other from Ohio Tool company. Did they make good stuff?

Thanks

[Prashun Patel]

I've used both an old bandsaw blade and a card scraper for a scratch stock. I just used a round chainsaw sharpening file to make the bead I wanted to cut. Then I 'rolled' the burr with a small burnisher. On such a small surface, it was hard for me to tell if i rolled it correctly. But it cut ok.

[george wilson]

I used old saw blades for many years. When I became toolmaker in the museum,I ordered different thicknesses of 1095 spring steel to make lots of saws for the Historic Area craftsmen,and used the left overs for scratch stocks when needed. The old saws were not as good as the 1095 now used by the best small makers of saws.

I have a PM VII block plane blade from Lee Valley. It is great!!

Cast steel dates back to the 18th.C.(as we know it),when it was discovered that sealed crucibles with wrought iron and charcoal could be heated up and the carbon would go into the iron,making high carbon tool steel. These crucibles were case into ingots,hence the term cast steel was originated.

Cast steel came in 3 or 4 different grades. The lowest carbon content was called spindle steel. The highest was razor steel. The grades were determined,and sorted at the steel makers' shops by cracking open samples and looking at the grain structure. This was done by an experienced expert.

Cast steel was better than the older"blister" or shear steel. Blister steel was made by baking wrought iron rods with charcoal in large sandstone chests with sealed lids. The rods became deeply,but not completely case hardened. Then,the rods were bundled together and welded together. It was then "shear steel". If a better grade was wanted,it was folded over and welded again. This was "double shear steel". It had hard and soft layers,and was not uniform like cast steel. It was hard to make consistent watch and clock springs from it,so Huntsman,a watch maker,seeking a better steel,invented the cast steel(or crucible steel) process. Cast steel was made even into the 20th. C. in England.

[David Weaver]

what type of steel is suitable and or customary for scratch stocks? I have some old saw blades and 1/32" 1065 spring steel. Seems like it would be too think. I also have old plane blades but no way to soften them to file contours. Also, does one put a burr on a scratch stock like a card scraper?

Speaking of steel, has anyone used that new (new to me) steel from Lee Valley that has outrageous claims of superiority in every quality? It is called like pmv 311 or something.

Could anyone describe what "cast steel" is too? I found some thick old plane blades at an antique shop that both say "warranted cast steel". One is from A.C. Bartlett and the other from Ohio Tool company. Did they make good stuff?

Thanks

Ohio tool made some good irons and some mediocre irons. It's pretty late in the game that they were making tons and tons of planes, and ohio tool stuff tends to reflect it (in design, and sometimes in execution). I've only had bartlett plow irons, IIRC, nothing specific to say about them. I have probably had half a dozen ohio tool irons and used two of them a lot. One of them is OK and the other is microchippy without necessarily being very hard (that is a combination that lacks charm), it came in an ohio tool smoother that was not cut properly to take advantage of the double iron that it was fitted to (as in, if you set the chipbreaker correctly, it clogs).

PM v11 is good steel. whether or not it's super beat all as it's marketed to be is probably something that will take a lot more consensus to develop. It is good, though, and it's not terribly hard to sharpen. I'd sooner have it in a plane iron than chisels given the choice, because there's really not anything lacking in good quality chisels that say "cast steel" on them (note the handy tie in!!), and they can be had cheaply.

I'd say the abrasion resistance it offers is of no real gain over cast steel marketed stuff, too, but after using a muji continental smoother a LOT (one with an HSS iron), it sure is nice to have that plane sitting idle and knowing that it's going to get through knocking off scuzz on a board without having to sharpen before you're done. It's a bear to sharpen with the wrong stuff, but because all it ever does is wear a little (not chip), it's a breeze with a diamond hone and a finish stone applying a microbevel.

[mike holden]

Plane blades would be way too thick for a scratch iron. Rolling a hook or burr is optional, usually without a burr. It is a "scratch" stock, it is not cutting the wood.

As regards the steel questions: I have worked with sheet steel in a production mode for my entire career and I will not enter the "religious wars" and voodoo beliefs regarding steel compositions. You dont get something for nothing. Steel is harder than most woods. Worry about your ability to cut tight-fitting joints, not the steel composition of your tools - nobody will look at your work and say: "you used a warranted steel to cut those joints, didn't you?"

Mike

[David Weaver]

I used old saw blades for many years. When I became toolmaker in the museum,I ordered different thicknesses of 1095 spring steel to make lots of saws for the Historic Area craftsmen,and used the left overs for scratch stocks when needed. The old saws were not as good as the 1095 now used by the best small makers of saws.

I have a PM VII block plane blade from Lee Valley. It is great!!

Cast steel dates back to the 18th.C.(as we know it),when it was discovered that sealed crucibles with wrought iron and charcoal could be heated up and the carbon would go into the iron,making high carbon tool steel. These crucibles were case into ingots,hence the term cast steel was originated.

Cast steel came in 3 or 4 different grades. The lowest carbon content was called spindle steel. The highest was razor steel. The grades were determined,and sorted at the steel makers' shops by cracking open samples and looking at the grain structure. This was done by an experienced expert.

Cast steel was better than the older"blister" or shear steel. Blister steel was made by baking wrought iron rods with charcoal in large sandstone chests with sealed lids. The rods became deeply,but not completely case hardened. Then,the rods were bundled together and welded together. It was then "shear steel". If a better grade was wanted,it was folded over and welded again. This was "double shear steel". It had hard and soft layers,and was not uniform like cast steel. It was hard to make consistent watch and clock springs from it,so Huntsman,a watch maker,seeking a better steel,invented the cast steel(or crucible steel) process. Cast steel was made even into the 20th. C. in England.

By the time the razor makers got heating and tempering figured out (presume because they heated in molten lead instead of open atmosphere), they were making razors that were as good as anything I've ever seen in a tool from anywhere. plain carbon steel sold in US made razors is super. Not all of the razor makers were that precise with it, but the good US made razors are as good at taking an edge and holding it as anything I've seen, much finer than O1 steel (which is currently used for some small maker razors).

I sent Chris G a razor a while ago, from a new jersey maker, probably about 100-125 years old or so, and the steel was of such high quality and the grind so fine that when I was cleaning it, there was apiece of dirt under the edge. I applied pressure to clean part of the hollow and the piece of dirt or abrasive or whatever it was clearly was visible telegraphed right through the edge of the blade, but it did not chip or damage the edge in any way on something that is harder than probably most of the tools we'd ever get our hands on aside from the premium japanese tools (you can't get away with razors being soft because the bevels are at such an acute angle).

[george wilson]

I did not roll burrs when using scratch stocks for complex miniature moldings. I filed the face of the scraper to re sharpen it. Of course,scratch stock blades are made for special applications and have finite live spans. 1/32" will do fine for small moldings.

Plain carbon steel will take a sharper edge than any other steel. It just won't hold it as long. Razors are best made from it as sharpness is paramount in their ability to shave smoothly. An occasional stropping will keep them sharp in use.

The reason scads of other steels have been developed is to make them stay sharp LONGER(but never initially as sharp as plain carbon steel),to make them work in heated environments,to make them stainless,to make them tougher,and other reasons.

01 is the most common oil hardening steel. It keeps an edge a bit better than W1(plain carbon steel). You can buy it at any machinist supply. It is actually getting hard to find sources of W1 steel. Industry wants more sophisticated steels these days. I buy mine at MCS Co.. They have a limited size range of W1. W1 drill rod can be had in many sizes,if you want to forger it flat. The widest W1 from MSC is 1" wide. 1095 blue steel shim stock can be had in many thicknesses,up to about 1/8" thick. It is plain carbon steel. Gets expensive when you have to buy a sheet of thicker stock,though. You can buy white steel made in Japan,too. It is available in sizes to make knives. The Dick Co. in Germany sells it.

I think W1 has lost popularity because it must be water quenched,and is the most treacherous of the steels in warping,deforming,and cracking. 01 is better in that department. Air hardening steels like A2 are the safest,and I've made dozens of close fitting punch and die sets from it. BUT,A2 takes high temperature stainless steel foil wrap to keep air from it,or a furnace that uses inert gas. It also takes a higher temperature to harden it. It needs accurate heat control,because there is usually a 25º window where any kind of steel will reach its optimum hardness. AND,you need a 400º,accurately controlled oven to place it in just when it has gotten cool enough that you can barely juggle it in your hand (about 130º). When making super expensive dies in industry,these things become very important. W1 and 01 can be more forgiving in the home shop,when you are going to cut wood with them.

[george wilson]

Here is the progression of sharpness vs. edge holding ability in the 3 most common tool steels: #1 Sharpness-W1 plain carbon steel is best at getting the sharpest,but holds the edge the least length of time. #2; O1 Takes a good edge,not quite as sharp as W1,but stays sharp longer. Safer to quench,too. #3 A2-doesn't get as sharp as 01,but DOES take a perfectly good edge. It holds the edge the longest,and is the safest to harden as it hardens in still air.

So,if you want to make a razor,use W1. If you want a long wearing plane blade,use A2. O1 is a good all around steel for home use.

[Chris Griggs]

I bought this little pack (http://www.woodcraft.com/product/2084163/36876/hock-scratch-stock-blades-4pack.aspx) of beading/scraper blades for $6 from WC last time I was there. You could get a lot more for your money with old saw steel or a sheet of 1095 (I assume these are just 1095), but these saved me some time and effort being that they are already cut to a nice size. They're easy to file, they're pretty thick, and they work well. I find that just filing the profile and lapping/polishing the side yielded really good results. I used them on hard maple for both beads on frame and panel doors and also on the top edge of this molding (http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Zb-1bSagQOM/UWHqMaA-_fI/AAAAAAAAANA/FMVY_lM9TpI/s1600/IMG_20130407_172303_702.jpg) with nice results.

(okay, I confess, I bought the little Hock bamboo beading cutter holder too. Yes, that right, I spent $30 on a piece of bamboo with a slot and couple of screws in it when I could have made the same thing on my own. And, I'd do it again too, because I just wasn't in the mood to dig through the scrap bin and take the extra 30 minutes [which in chris griggs woodworking time could easily become 2 hours] to make one myself, and well its actually a pretty nice little tool):)

Also: Yes that that razor I got off Dave is a lovely piece of steel. Its so thin that when I strop it on balsa with compound I can feel every tiny irregularity in the substrate...if there's even a speck of dirt contaminating the hone the razor telegraphs it and I can feel it in my finger tips.

[Noah Wagener]

Thanks for the info. Do you do anything preliminary to using the scratch stock? Like using a rabbett plane to get started?

[mike holden]

Thanks for the info. Do you do anything preliminary to using the scratch stock? Like using a rabbett plane to get started?

Nope, just start with light passes. Depending on shape, tilting the stock to begin can help.
Harder wood works better, pine doesnt work, walnut and mahogany work beautifully.

Mike

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

If I'm adding a bead with a scratch stock, sometimes I bevel the outside corner. I almost always mark with soft pencil where the bead will be centered, when the pencil just disappears, I know I'm at full depth.

I made all my scratch stocks out of those card scrapers I kept getting every time my wife renewed my subscription to fine woodworking.

[don wilwol]

here is mine http://lumberjocks.com/projects/69251

[Frederick Skelly]

Im reading Garrett Hacks book right now, at the suggestion of folks here at the Creek. He says he goes out of his way to find those old warranted cast steel irons. He loves them. If the price is right, Id sure try one out in your hand plane. I wouldnt use them as feedstock for a scratch plane though - seem too valuable as plane irons.

[george wilson]

Old laminated plane irons are too thick and too hard to use for scratch stocks. You need to be able to file shapes into the blades. Use old saw blades or blue spring steel shim stock(1095 steel).

[Bob Black Atlanta]

I know some guys whose scratch stocks are a thing of beauty. I go in the other direction. Usually I make them for a one time job - usually a moulding that you can't duplicate with router bits or my set of hollow and rounds. Use a table saw to waste wood if you are making a moulding in the 1-3" face width. Then finish with a series of scratch stocks. Use dry framing lumber for the stock and your used sawzall blades do very nicely for blades. If you are in a hurry and don't have used sawzall blades go to the big orange box and pick up a couple of Milwaukee sawzall blades.

Be sure to save them after the job is done - you might use them in the future. Or not. I've got a couple that are at least 30 years old and they have never been used since the initial job. But I'm ready in case I need to do another double reeded Rhode Island sofa leg.