Mainstream Durability

[Hank Hill]

So I've been reading hundreds of threads in the engravers forum now for the past couple weeks and am considering buying a laser at the NBM show this weekend in Charlotte, narrowing my primary choices down to Epilog and Trotec. However, the one thing I just can't get past is how many "problem" threads I find for Epilog machines. Is it just the sheer number of Epilog users here?

I haven't ran across a single Trotec horror story or troubleshooting thread yet while I've seen dozens of Epilog threads. I'm an extremely low volume user that won't be running a business off a laser, meaning I care more about longevity than speed or power. I'm starting to get the impression that a Trotec might be a slightly higher quality machine but at a cost. Is this skewed by the user base?

[Martin Boekers]

Lasers are designed to be used, when they sit for extended time frames things can happen, so make sure you run it from time to time.

Both are quality lasers, and both provide outstanding service. I would guess there are more Epilog users here, not sure. It's good you
are going to a show and can see each running. You may bring some samples of the type of work you want to do. Both companies have some
new models so check them out. Sometimes people here are quick to ask for help with an issue. I have 2 Epilogs and wouldn't hesitate
buying a third when needed. Since I started in 2006 I have never had one down for more than 24 hours. Epilog support has been outstanding
Some here if you look closer may deal with the distributors more than the product. Both are user freindly and can be maintained easily.

[Michael Hunter]

I suspect that the volume of Epilog problems reported are partly due to the very large user base and also the fact that Epilogs have tended to sell to first-time, non-technical users.

ULS machines tend to be bought for industrial use - by people probably well able to fix most problems themselves.
The ULS design is "open" so that most problems can be fixed very easily.

For many years Trotec was MUCH more expensive (like 50% or more up on the others), so the user base was very small in comparison.
Now that Trotec prices are more competitive it is well worth paying a small premium for the extra quality - IF the bed size is suitable for your needs.

[Craig Matheny]

Mike the question is did Trotec come down in price or did the others go up being they could.. Just the thought for today :D

[Paul Phillips]

Hi Hank, welcome to the Creek. I've read through most of the threads as well and I would have to agree and say your assessment is correct, it seems to me that the majority of laser owners on here have Epilog machines which would explain the number of questions/posts regarding Epilog, it seems to me that they offer a top quality machine and as I'm sure you can also tell that they have probably the best reputation for customer service. Trotec does seem to have the reputation for the best overall quality and fastest production machines with as you said, a bit higher cost. As I am sure you have already read here many times, "you get what you pay for" seems to be very true when it comes to lasers.
Paul

[Mark Sipes]

I purchased my Trotec in 2001 (one of the first in the US before Trotec had a US office) and I have recharged it only once. I have replaced bearings in the X-axis and 3 x- motors. The motors are brushed motors and take the hardest wear in the laser. The motors today are brushless so I imagine that problem has been fixed. The software is easy to use and allows for WYSIWYG placement on the table. I will run this machine until it dies and I don't see that happening for a long time. I am in retail and the machine runs a minimum of 6 hours a day 5 days a week. stainless, glassware, plastics, brass plates, etc.

JMO

[Martin Boekers]

One more thing, if you decide to buy a trotec they offer a discount to SMC menbers so make sure you let them know you are one. ;)

[Mike Null]

My Trotec is 7 years old in June. I just replaced the x axis bearings and that is the only repair or parts that I've had to deal with. In other words, less than one day of down time in 7 years. I run a one man engraving business and my machine runs nearly every day. I have operated Epilogs, owned a Universal and if I buy another machine it will be another Trotec. They are just amazing.

[Hank Hill]

Thanks to everyone for responding. It's very helpful to hear what's gone wrong with various machines rather than the typical happy path reviews. I'd be quite thrilled if all I had to do over 7 years worth was a set of bearings.


Lasers are designed to be used, when they sit for extended time frames things can happen, so make sure you run it from time to time.
Part of my research has been learning the actual laser tube manufacturers and design, and the current designs of Iradion and Synrad are almost identical and should never leak CO2, leaving the only problem as oxidation on the glass when sitting unused. What else do you think can happen when sitting idle, not including accidents? I think this is a side effect of low quality tubes or is a thing of the past.

[Martin Boekers]

I think this was more an issue with Coherent Tubes...... I have an Epilog Radius at home. with a Synrad 25watt from 1998 and it's still going strong!

Your research will reward you with when you decide! :)

[Joe Hillmann]

I don't think it is CO2 leaking out of the tubes that causes the tubes to go bad. Only about 20% of the gasses in the tube is CO2. The tubes also contain nitrogen, hydrogen, and helium. Over time the hydrogen and helium can leak right through the glass. I would suggest planing for needing to recharge your tube every 4 years. Your tube will probably last much longer but that way you at least have the money set aside for it (I have one that is 13 years old on the original tube) Even if you do have to replace it every four years that is only $300. If you used any thing other than a laser to engrave or cut for production use you would go through more than $300 a year in bits and blades.

One reason you may see more problems with epilogs is, epilogs use servo motors which requires feedback through the encoder strip to tell the brains of the laser where the head is at any given time. Whereas universals use stepper motors which don't require feedback and just rely on using over powered stepper motors and assume that the head is where it should be based on the number of steps it took. Nearly the first suggestion when someone comes here and has problems with an epilog is to clean the encoder strip which by the looks of it often solves the problem. I don't know which method trotec uses.


Also no one ever posts on here just to say there laser is running problem free (except for Walt) so even though you see lots of posts about problems people are having breakdowns aren't that common and when they do break down the fix is often something that the companies tech support can walk you through how to fix or replace the part.

[Mark Sipes]

I've taken the brushed motor apart and on the bottom of the shaft is a thin metal disk with slots ( very tiny slots ) in it that rotate through a magnetic pick up ( like a cc reader)
Not sure of the current design...


Hank, make sure you let us all know what you decision is and why. Of course we will know when you add it to your signature block as a proud owner of a XXXXec......

Enjoy the show.

[Rodne Gold]

If you are a low volume user I imagine either would last as long without issues. Wear and tear would be minimal. As to tubes , well that is somewhat of a crapshoot..once you out of warrantee you out of warrantee and the tube could fail the next month or 10 years down the line. Whichever make gives you the longer warrantee on the tube is the one most confident of it's reliability.
I have had less success with coherent tubes than Synrads in the past.
As a low volume user , features like thruput and speed are probably less relevant. I would be looking at bed size , power and ease of use and possibly price as primary determinants.
Forget bells and whistles like 3d mode or stamp modes ..unless you are buying the laser primarily for either.
What are you intending to do with the machine?

[Hank Hill]

One reason you may see more problems with epilogs is, epilogs use servo motors which requires feedback through the encoder strip to tell the brains of the laser where the head is at any given time. Whereas universals use stepper motors which don't require feedback and just rely on using over powered stepper motors and assume that the head is where it should be based on the number of steps it took. Nearly the first suggestion when someone comes here and has problems with an epilog is to clean the encoder strip which by the looks of it often solves the problem. I don't know which method trotec uses.
Epilog uses both mechanism. The Zing models use stepper motors and they seem to have as many or more problems than the servo based units so I question the theory somewhat. Trotec Speedy models are all servo based.

[Dan Hintz]

Part of my research has been learning the actual laser tube manufacturers and design, and the current designs of Iradion and Synrad are almost identical and should never leak CO2, leaving the only problem as oxidation on the glass when sitting unused.


I don't think it is CO2 leaking out of the tubes that causes the tubes to go bad. Only about 20% of the gasses in the tube is CO2. The tubes also contain nitrogen, hydrogen, and helium. Over time the hydrogen and helium can leak right through the glass.

There is no glass in a "western" laser, only in the "eastern" brands (i.e., Chinese). Western lasers (barring Trotec's ceramic cartridges for the moment) are essentially aluminum tubes that have a thick oxidation layer grown on the inside for insulation. Any leaking that might go on would be through rubber seals.

[Tim Bateson]

Hank,

I like both companies, but don't believe that for a moment that Epilog is any lesser quality. You may have read in the threads - Six years ago, I bought my Epilog - used with no warranty, it was pushed off the back of a UPS truck onto the street (nearly 4 ft drop). It's used about 4 hours a day 5-7 days a week. The only repair has been a mother board a couple months ago. I've always gotten fast support from them when I had a question and for the 1 repair. I think most of these machines are built to be worked on by the end users. The motherboard replacement was easier that that of a computer.

I'm open to looking at both companies for a 2nd machine, but Epilog quality and support has earned my respect.

[Hank Hill]

There is no glass in a "western" laser, only in the "eastern" brands (i.e., Chinese). Western lasers (barring Trotec's ceramic cartridges for the moment) are essentially aluminum tubes that have a thick oxidation layer grown on the inside for insulation. Any leaking that might go on would be through rubber seals.
How does the light exit the tube then? It sure doesn't go through the ceramic walls or rubber seals. Here's the business end of the Epilog tubes...
261287

[Lee DeRaud]

How does the light exit the tube then? It sure doesn't go through the ceramic walls or rubber seals.Just because something is transparent doesn't mean it's "glass". Ordinary glass is opaque to the wavelengths emitted by CO2 lasers: the optics are usually made of ZnSe.

[Hank Hill]

Just because something is transparent doesn't mean it's "glass". Ordinary glass is opaque to the wavelengths emitted by CO2 lasers: the optics are usually made of ZnSe.
Funny enough, the term "glass" refers to a solid with a amorphous structure that has a glass to liquid reaction when heated. I'm sure zinc selenide will exhibit a glass transition considering its made of Zinc but the community scientist are going to have to ring in as to whether ZnSe qualifies as a crystalline material or not. ;)

[Joe Hillmann]

Hank,

What do you plan to do with your laser? I ask because you say you will be very low volume. And most people who do low volume work tend to be for part time or hobby work and they often go for the much cheaper Chinese machines rather then going with the more expensive American machines or Trotec. Also for low volume would you be better off hiring your laser work out?

When you go to the show I would suggest you bring along a few samples of what you want to engrave and mark to make sure that the machine you end up getting can do what you want with a quality you want and at a speed that is acceptable to you. Two of the lasers that the previous owner of my company bought turned out to be totally inadequate to do the job they were intended for.

[Albert Nix]

I don't think you would go wrong with either one of the machines. Just be sure you buy from a company with good tech support. I am going also...I hope it is a good show.

[Dan Hintz]

How does the light exit the tube then? It sure doesn't go through the ceramic walls or rubber seals.


Funny enough, the term "glass" refers to a solid with a amorphous structure that has a glass to liquid reaction when heated. I'm sure zinc selenide will exhibit a glass transition considering its made of Zinc but the community scientist are going to have to ring in as to whether ZnSe qualifies as a crystalline material or not. ;)

My post was meant to be informational to correct an apparent misunderstanding of how something operates... but subsequent posts become less so when people pay more attention to the minutiae than the core intent.

[Keith Outten]

Gentlemen,
You have taken the thread way off topic and the question is Epilog vs Trotec.

Hank,
If you are considering a Trotec send me a PM and I will give you a name and number to call so you can find out what your SawMill Creek Discount would be. Do this before you go to the NBM show.
My first laser engraver was an Epilog, my current machine is a Trotec. My Trotec machine is far superior in every way.

[Tim Bateson]

Hank, We all (most of us) love the machine(s) we happen to be using, and some are a bit bias about it (not always a bad thing). Either way you'll get a great product and you'll be happy too. Go to the show, flip a coin, then join our madness. :cool:

[Rodne Gold]

Iv'e moved the off topic etching thing to a new thread ..
this one
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?202767-PCB-etching-and-lasers

[Joe Hillmann]

One difference between Epilog and Trotec that hasn't been discussed yet is the rotary type they use. Epilog uses a roller type and Trotec has a cone jamb chuck that can be converted to the roller type on some of there machines. Each type of rotary has jobs that it is very good at and jobs that it can't do without some type of jeg. In my opinion the jamb chuck is more useful and easier to make jegs for than a roller type. But, then again I own a Universal so of course I would say that.

If you plan on doing round objects you may want to take some to the show and see how each machine does at marking them.

[Wes Mitchell]

It's a slow day on the engraver's forum, so I thought I'd add this: Trotec must be durable. If you pay close enough attention during Iron Man 3, you'll see that Tony Stark uses a Trotec. With all the explosions around his house, you know he wouldn't be buying anything that isn't made to withstand a little shrapnel.