New to engraving

[Phillip Bogle]

I have 20+ years experience in graphic arts and I am fairly adept at CorelDraw X6 (I have been using CorelDarw for several years). I am about to sign for an Epilog Helix 50 watt.
I know the Epilog is well advertised and they have been around for some time. What I am asking this group -- is what are the pitfalls with this brand or company? Is the Epilog Helix 50 watt a good choice for some one starting out in the laser end of engraving.
I live in a tourist area, and we get requests for trinkets (mementos from our area) and no one is filling this product need.
Are the laser engraved products pretty well received or are their objections to the process? I have not sold engraving before so I am not sure what someone will say negative.
What words of caution or advice can you give a new entrant?

Phil Bogle
Tillamook County Oregon

[Joe Pelonio]

I have always been happy with the Epilog Service, they only real negative is the price and later the price of parts when the warranty is up. For me it's been worth it for the quality of the product. Mine is now 8 years old, and I have replaced the tube twice and the X motor, otherwise it's been fine. Your only problem selling laser items is if you take a booth at a higher-end art fair. You will see hand made items with signs that say "Hand Crafted, not Laser." Those artists resent that you can make what they do a lot faster and sell at a lower price.

[Ross Moshinsky]

I think you should look at Trotec, Epilog, and Universal. Trotec is arguably the best machine of the bunch. If you go to a trade show, you can save thousands on either machine.

I will say this, selling trinkets is not the best market in the world. A lot of people think it's a great market to be in and then they realize making $2 per item doesn't leave them with a lot of money at the end of the day. Assuming you have fixed expenses of $2000/mo and you want to make $4000/mo, you'd need to sell 3,000 trinkets to accomplish that goal. That's not even really addressing the fact that you have a $15,000+ laser you have to pay off.

[Pete James]

You might want to consider a less expensive machine. We purchased a 40w from Hurricane Lasers and it paid for itself in about 3months. The equipment has functioned flawlessly and John and the staff at Hurricane have provided outstanding service. The Hurricane machines are made in China by GWeike. They have frequent specials that can usually save substantially off of list price. Give John a call and discuss your needs with him before you buy. I am not affiliated with Hurricane - just a happy customer. Also, I am not knocking Epilog - great equipment and company - but expensive. Our first laser was an Epilog and it was excellent, but we can buy 2 or 3 of the Hurricane machines for the price of the Epilog and we can replace 10 tubes on our machine for the price of 1 Epilog replacement (in fairness, the Epilog tube lasts longer usually).

[Phillip Bogle]

Ross:Thank you for you perspective. Actually I already sell embroidered garments for that market, and most are quite a bit more expensive than $2. but your point is well made. I own all of my real estate free and clear, and have no debt. Our embroidery business is 4 multi thread machines and all paid for. Seems like you point out, that many forget to include operational overhead for their business. I was looking for the Epilog to help with applique' cutting for the embroidered garments, and offering another level of product service to our line. My son has a sign company and runs a printing company that used to be mine. I saw this laser as being available for his product line as well. The tourist items like wood plaques, or wood scrapbooks with the local name or tourist destination on it would be an additional offering to our already existing uses. Sorry -- I was not very clear on that part. I just do not know much about the market outside of signs and garments, which is our main demand.

I know the Epilog name but there are always hidden things you do not know about unless you ask. So I was asking, and appreciate your response.
Thank you,
Phillp Bogle

[Phillip Bogle]

Joe: Oh yes! forgot the "High Brow" artsy crowd. I live about 16 miles south of Cannon Beach, Oregon, and THAT is High Brow, art. I laugh about the signs -- if we follow their reasoning, I could go to the fair in leaf clothing (being sensitive to the PETA crowd, no animal skins) and have a sign "etched on real cave walls with real rocks and colored dirt, did not use oil paint!"

Phillip Bogle

[Phillip Bogle]

Pete: Thank you for your suggestion. I have found that for my first foray into a new territory, it is best for me to stick with the top or nearest to the top if I can. After I get some good experience under my belt, I might foray into a different direction.
I do appreciate your suggestions though. Thank you for taking the time to respond.
Phillip Bogle

[Martin Boekers]

I have 2 Epilogs and have been happy with them esp. service. my typically turnarounds are 2-3 days and the last 7 years I have not
been down for for than 24hrs, even for a tube replacement. They overnight it at a shipping discount.

If your hands on type some of the Chinese ones have recieved good reviews, Rodne has a great thread on this if you decide that.

Many use Trotec and have sworn by them, Trotec gives SMC Members a discount so ask, if you decide on Epilog, let them know you get a discount from Trotec :)

If you are not in a big hurry, go to one of the trade shows, NBM or ARA then you can see them all in person. It helps when making a final decision as well
as negotiating prices when you have them at one spot. :)

It looks like you will be in a building, so you may not have the same concerns of a filtering system that's mobile. If you decide to make one for your shop Dan Hintz
has a great posting on it here.

Good Luck!

[Phillip Bogle]

Martin: Thank you for your input. Right now Epilog is offering a $4,500. discount off the MSRP. Not sure if that is the real everyday thing but it seems pretty good.

I hear the claims that "I paid for my laser in 3 months" type of claim and I am rather skeptical. I have run businesses for more than 40 years, so I have my doubts. I am wondering what is typical (if there is one) time frame to have a unit pay for itself? I see lots of possibilities but I am still inexperienced at the public reception to the product. Sales skill aside, does the process and product sell well or is it an uphill battle?

Phillip Bogle

[Martin Boekers]

Martin: Thank you for your input. Right now Epilog is offering a $4,500. discount off the MSRP. Not sure if that is the real everyday thing but it seems pretty good.

I hear the claims that "I paid for my laser in 3 months" type of claim and I am rather skeptical. I have run businesses for more than 40 years, so I have my doubts. I am wondering what is typical (if there is one) time frame to have a unit pay for itself? I see lots of possibilities but I am still inexperienced at the public reception to the product. Sales skill aside, does the process and product sell well or is it an uphill battle?

Phillip Bogle


Lets say it's a challenge! Not many can say they can pay a laser off that quickly... It all depends upon what do you mean paying it off quickly?
Do you mean taking all the profit you make toward the laser? You may be able to do that as the laser will be an addition to your services.
If I was purchasing a new laser, I wouldn't have an issue financing it for 5 years. (an Epilog or similar as they come with a 2 year warranty)
This would be similar to a car loan. :) This way it would give you a chance to establish business for it, and start a fund for replacement parts.

You have been in business....sellers want to sell their machines, I wouldn't expect it to pay for itself that quickly. Some never pay for themselves
alot depends upon your business plan and actual opportunity. Just because you personalize something doesn't mean a line will form outside
your door for it! :0

I think, just my opinion, realistically if it pays for itself in a year or two you are doing good.

Many here do real well, because of niche markets they have found, there is quite a bit of competion for standard things.

Sales skills and network do help.

If you have a market, and with the business experience you already have you should do ok, many get into this business with little or no experience
esp. on the graphic end. Those have a more difficult journey.

[Larry Bratton]

I vote for Epilog. Had mine for about 6 years. Still a great machine and Epilog's tech support is unbeatable. You will not go wrong with them.

Pete: Thank you for your suggestion. I have found that for my first foray into a new territory, it is best for me to stick with the top or nearest to the top if I can. After I get some good experience under my belt, I might foray into a different direction.
I do appreciate your suggestions though. Thank you for taking the time to respond.
Phillip Bogle

[Phillip Bogle]

Martin: Thank you for your response and candor. I suspected that this would be the case. The salesman never said it would pay for itself fast. The video Epilog sends out has a couple of testimonials from users and they say it is a fast payback, and one claimed 3 months. The salesman was honest and pretty clear, but he has to work with the tools he is given. I am glad I asked.

Phil

[Phillip Bogle]

Many of you seem to have Stahls or Hix, or Knight heat presses. Why? is there a product line that goes along with laser that uses one?
I am familiar with the bling market and heat pressing either dye sub or transfers. Just do not know how it relates to laser.
Phil Bogle

[Joe Pelonio]

Martin: Thank you for your response and candor. I suspected that this would be the case. The salesman never said it would pay for itself fast. The video Epilog sends out has a couple of testimonials from users and they say it is a fast payback, and one claimed 3 months. The salesman was honest and pretty clear, but he has to work with the tools he is given. I am glad I asked.

Phil
I paid $16,000 plus some minor remodeling, exhaust system etc. and payback was about a year. That was at my sign shop already 11 years old with established customers to whom I could sell, but with that and the personalizing and trinkets it would have taken 4-5 years. My laser revenue was (and remains) mainly the industrial customers with big regular orders, manufacturing parts. Not very artistic but very profitable.

[Martin Boekers]

Many of you seem to have Stahls or Hix, or Knight heat presses. Why? is there a product line that goes along with laser that uses one?
I am familiar with the bling market and heat pressing either dye sub or transfers. Just do not know how it relates to laser.
Phil Bogle

I do Dye Sub, Laser Toner Transfer (CLT), and vinyl cutting. These are side markets that work well with a Laser Business. $1200 for dye
sub printer/w inkset, $500 for a laser printer, $2000 for a vinyl cutter, $1200 for a heat press. Each service is reasonably priced to get started.

Dye sub and CLT make an easy way to do plates, either on Gold, Silver or White Metals, Transfer of photos to metal is popular right now.
Metals have been difficult to laser on silver or gold background. (Alumark) So this makes this type of plate easy to produce.

Dye Sub I opted for a Ricoh and got the extender tray so I can print on 13"x19" material. (just finished 150 golf towels) You can get set up with a smaller format for about $500

You can get a vinyl cutter cheaper, but I opted for a Roland with optical reader so I can perimeter cut. I bought a cheap Epson Pigment printer WF1100 so it the material can be washed. Cheap easy way to do logo tees. I bought it mainly for signage (mostly small office stuff I was cutting on the laser.) These purchases paid for themselves in about 6 months, but the laser business already had a client flow.

I do mix processes together, the one I use most is Dye Sub Hardboard Stock. It's about .125" thick, can be "die" to shapes on the laser then
color transfer with Dye Sub. Some here focus more on the sign end and opt for a CNC machine. It just depends upon the area you want to
focus your business on.

If you read through a lot of the postings, you'll see many here focus on the commercial vs the retail end. Many have developed a niche market
that serves them well.

I added a bit more than you asked for, but I think you'll find for the most part many that work with lasers here, offer a few different processes for their clients.

[Phillip Bogle]

Joe: Can you tell me more about the industrial parts? For 20 years I was in printing and then gave the shop to my son. I learned there are "sexy" jobs and bread and butter jobs. The B & B jobs made the time and cash to do the things I wanted -- and typically lost money on. It is nice to say some of my work is in the US National Archives as works of art, and nice to say that two of my pieces are in the Pres. Reagan library. However you can not bank the status jobs and years later bragging is just hot air. So please if you can -- enlighten me. What sort of industrial parts do you do? Is it highly competitive? What industries should I look at?

Phil

[Joe Sanchez]

Phillip, I purchased 2 Epilog lasers. I would not have purchased my second one had the first been a nightmare. I did a trade study on the big 3: Trotec, ULS, and Epilog and after the dust had cleared the Epilog had won. The Trotec machine did rate high but I did not want to have to deal with EU money fluctuation if I had to replace a tube. It also helped that Epilog's sales team will do what ever they can to help you get started and help you stay in business. Lastly it really didn't hurt Epilog to be in my backyard, but I would have gone to one of the either brands if I felt they were better than Epilog.