Computer for my grandson

[Paul McGaha]

My grandson Michael is turning 11 years old tomorrow. My daughter tells me he could use a computer for his schoolwork.

She found this at Best Buy, seems like a pretty good deal to me:

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/HP---Desktop---4GB-Memory---500GB-Hard-Drive/6835558.p?id=1218809266786&skuId=6835558

Isn't is something that kids that age are using computers at school?

I'm pretty sure we have a spare monitor we could use with it.

PHM

[Grant Wilkinson]

If he might be doing his homework in a library, you may want to consider a laptop instead. More pricey, generally, but more versatile.

[Dan Hintz]

The price is nothing special, if that's what you're asking. A capable machine, but I purchased something similar in spec a year and a half ago for roughly the same price.

[Matt Meiser]

I wouldn't even consider anything but a laptop and I wouldn't buy it at Best Buy. A Dell Inspiron 15 starts at $350 and a Core i3 with 4GB of RAM is $400. A little more RAM would be nice but can be added at any time inexpensively. You might be able to find a better deal in the Dell Outlet. We've bought 2 and my dad bought one this year and we've been happy with them (2 i3's, 1 i5.) Plus Dell offers extended warranties with reasonably fast onsite service--none of this ship it off and hope you get it back some day stuff.

My 11YO daughter's laptop is a $400 Acer from Walmart about 2 years ago (never tell a kid if they save $300 they can get a laptop...). Its been decent, not perfect, but I'd get a Dell if I had to do it again.

[Jerome Stanek]

I would look at Microcenter and see what they have I buy they clearance and open box items all the time and have had really good luck with them.

[Brian Elfert]

Eleven years old is not early at all to be using a computer. Plenty of kids use computers and tablets at home by 1st or 2nd grade these days. I'm not sure which grade the kids start using computers in school, but an 11 year old is probably in 5th grade and almost certainly using a computer at school already.

You can get a pretty decent laptop for $400 these days. One consideration for a laptop is how well would it be taken care of? One drop and it could become a $400 brick. The parents may not want a laptop as it could possibly be used in locations where a parent can't easily monitor online activities. A desktop can be located in a central location where the parents can monitor usage easily.

I live in a middle to upper middle class area. Just about every high school kid I deal with has a laptop these days. Tablets are really in vogue these days, but I don't think they can do everything most high school students need to do yet. You can't really write a class paper on a tablet without physical keyboard.

[Chris Padilla]

Our daughter wanted an Apple iPad. I made her a deal: if she qualified for State (gymnastics final), she could have one for Christmas. Well, she got one. Now the iPad is about as compact it gets but they are spendy but she has had it since Christmas 2011 and it has done fine in her care. She is 11 and in fifth grade right now. It was used mostly for games and online stuff but now she has papers to write in school. For that, we had to purchase a real keyboard (bluetooth wireless) and some word processing software and a typing program. It isn't the best for such things but it works fine right now for what she needs. I suspect for 6th grade and on up, she is going to need more of a "real" and "working" kind of computer like perhaps a MAC but I think we'll likely get her a PC laptop since I'm more comfortable with non-fruit computers and Dell is the place I would do it. I've helped my folks buy computers from Dell and they've always been happy plus I get a discount through work.

[Matt Meiser]

I'm not sure which grade the kids start using computers in school, but an 11 year old is probably in 5th grade and almost certainly using a computer at school already.

Preschool or earlier.

[Jim Rimmer]

I bought a bargain Best Buy Toshiba for my wife a couple of years ago and she has been frustrated with it. I talked to our company IT guy and he said that those bargain units are usually pretty crappy. I ran this one by him today and he seems to think it would be all right for her. She only does email and a few Word documents - no power computing or on-line gaming. He also recommends staying with Windows 7; corporate guide right now is not to use Windows 8 or whatever the next release is called because of numerous issues with it. With Dell you can specify Windows 7.
260783

[Myk Rian]

Get a laptop. Make sure it has WiFi.
With Windows 8, 4 gig RAM isn't much. 8 gig minimum.

[Charlie Velasquez]

Apple iPad mini 16GB WiFi Tablet for $299 at Walmart




Apple iPad with Retina Display: $40 off, from $460 + pickup at Micro Center




Refurbished Apple iPad 2 16GB WiFi in White for $259.96 at All4Cellular

I only use my laptop a couple of times a week. I only use my desktop a couple of times a month

I use my iPad almost constantly.

[Matt Meiser]

I have an iPad 2 and love it, but I wouldn't get one for a kid as their only computer. iPads are great but there's a lot you can't do with them. The Apple apps for office functions aren't bad, but not as full featured as what a teacher is going to expect. Printing requires an AirPrint capable printer. There's no way to transfer files to a flash drive (my daughter has needed to take stuff on a flash drive a few times this year.) And not everything on the web works, or is supported for the iPad. A BT keyboard adds a lot of nice functionality but not everything. And they may find it is less than fully compatible with what they have at school.

Jim, that Inspiron 17 is just a bigger version of the Inspiron 15. Might want to have her check them out in person somewhere. A 17" screen laptop can be big if you lug it around a lot. I have a 17 for work (with a 24" external display on my desk,) but for home I chose a 15.

[Mike Chance in Iowa]

Paul,

There is always a better deal to be found (pricing, software, hardware, etc) when you surf around, but that takes doing some homework and knowing what to look for. While all of us can give you an opinion on what we think is best based on our personal purchase or technical background, the best suggestion I have for you is to find out what the kids are using in your grandson's school district. It's possible some items are not allowed at his school or there has been a heavy theft problem for desirable items such as ipads. The school may even recommend a range of laptops or computers because they have worked out a student discount with a vendor.

[Roy Harding]

Don't overlook reconditioned or "off lease" computers, such as those available at tiger direct, and other such retailers. I have three computers I purchased as reconditioned units and I couldn't be happier with them. (Two run specific machines in the shop, and the third is a small laptop I use when away from the shop/office). Although they are usually a generation or two behind the current NEW offerings, they are, in my opinion, more than sufficient for a first timer such as an 11 year old.

As far as computers for kids goes - I raised my three in the '80s and '90s, and by the mid-90's they all had their own computer, and our house was networked (this was even BEFORE the Internet). Our three boys all did well in school, and I credit at least part of that to their exposure to useful tools such as personal computers. In my opinion, it's NEVER "too early" to expose kids to all available tools - whether those tools are found in the shop, like planes, saws, and chisels - or in the office, like computers.

Edited to add: I think Mike Chance has made an excellent suggestion - check with your Grandson's school for their recommendation.

[Paul McGaha]

Thank you all for your comments. I emailed this thread to my daughter to help her decide what might be the best course of action.

The last (3) computers our family have bought have been Dell's from Costco. They've done well, but they have very light use at home. Emails and surfing mostly. A little excel and word use. I don't know that Costco had just what she was looking for this time.

I think we'll try to avoid Windows 8 if we can.

There may be a woodworking project in this for me. A small desk for Michael's room.

PHM

[Darius Ferlas]

If you want to avoid Win8 then your best bet may be a "business" line of computers. You will be able to select Win7, Win8 and (on some models) Linux. I'm partial to Dell but I also have a Lenovo.
If you decide to go for a laptop I would recommend the Dell's Vostro line (on the cheap) for the following reasons:

- no crapware
- antiglare screens

They are essentially the same as Inspirons, but Inspirons, to me are overpriced mirrors, with their shiny displays.

If you have a few extra $$$ kicking around then Dell Latitues are of much better quality. For an 11 year old a Vostro would be a decent banger though.

[Curt Harms]

If you must go Windows 8, there are free or inexpensive add-ons to bypass/replace the "modernUI" or whatever MS is calling it these days. One freebee is "classic desktop".
http://sourceforge.net/projects/classicshell/

Except for the UI, the user reviews for Windows 8 don't seem that bad. I'll probably stick with Win7 for my infrequent Windows usage; it's supported 'til January 2020. I find modern Linux distros quite capable of doing what I need done and with less hassle than Windows.

[Keith Outten]

No more Windows laptops for our family ever again.
Apple laptops and iPads are the only machines I will even consider anymore. Yep, they are more expensive the day you purchase them but the benefits seriously outweigh the cost.

Start your children out on Apple machines, they will be better off in the long run IMO. I have been using Microsoft products sine 1980 and I admit that the transition to Apple has been a challenge because I was so familier with MS software. I still have a couple Windows XP machines in my shop that I have to keep because they run my CNC Router and Laser Engraver but those two machines are my last.

My iPhone, iPad and Imac all talk to each other and thats the future of digital communications.

Curt, you do know that Apple's OS is just a Linux Distro don't you......Unix Rocks :)
.

[Darius Ferlas]

Apple machines are just fine, though seriously overpriced. Linux is a very good alternative and it's been used in my home for over 15 years now. My daughter has had her own PC since she was 6 or 7 years old. Now 24, and 4 educational levels later she's still using Linux as her sole OS platform. Yes, she is a geek, but not a computer geek.

Having said that, Windows OS is a business reality. Neither Apple nor Linux comes even close in the vast selection of software on the corporate level, and what people use at work they often end up using at home.

[Brian Kerley]

Get him a Chromebook.

Will work well for doing school work and they are fairly inexpensive.

[Larry Browning]

If you must go Windows 8, there are free or inexpensive add-ons to bypass/replace the "modernUI" or whatever MS is calling it these days. One freebee is "classic desktop".
http://sourceforge.net/projects/classicshell/

Except for the UI, the user reviews for Windows 8 don't seem that bad. I'll probably stick with Win7 for my infrequent Windows usage; it's supported 'til January 2020. I find modern Linux distros quite capable of doing what I need done and with less hassle than Windows.

I just recently go a new computer with Windows 8. I had been dreading the move, but my Win7 computer was old and the HD was dying. I found cheap fix to pretty much bypass those crazy tiles or "ModernUI" apps called StartIsBack. It brings back the good ol start button with some added features. Plus, and this is important, it allows me to boot directly to the desktop, so I don't have to see those ridiculous tiles. It only costs $3.00 for a 2 PC license. Now that I have that installed, Win8 is a pretty good improvement to Win7. It boots much faster, has better backup options, and many more little tweaks. I think it is pretty solid once you get away from those silly tiles. I can see where those would be useful for tablets with touch screens, but not so much on a desktop or even a laptop without touch screen.

I don't know what to think about Keith's comment about Apple stuff. I have an iphone issued to me by work. I absolutely hate the thing! I will throw it in the lake the day I retire! To each his own I guess. But for me, I can't ever see myself switching over to the Dark side. It's the Ford vs Chevy debate, just with computers.

Oh, one more thing. Paul, that PC you found at BB only has Ethernet, not wireless. So unless they have a wired network, they will need to get a wireless card for it.

[Jerome Stanek]

There are a lot more companies using MS software on pc's then apples. I would stick with a pc for that reason as it will help in the future. You can run some pc sotfware on an apple but you have to run it under a third party software and it may not run everything correctly.

[Myk Rian]

You could always ask your Grandson what he would like.

[Chris Padilla]

You could always ask your Grandson what he would like.

He would probably want "an Official Red Ryder Carbine-Action Two-Hundred-Shot Range Model Air Rifle!"

[Curt Harms]

No more Windows laptops for our family ever again.
Apple laptops and iPads are the only machines I will even consider anymore. Yep, they are more expensive the day you purchase them but the benefits seriously outweigh the cost.

Start your children out on Apple machines, they will be better off in the long run IMO. I have been using Microsoft products sine 1980 and I admit that the transition to Apple has been a challenge because I was so familier with MS software. I still have a couple Windows XP machines in my shop that I have to keep because they run my CNC Router and Laser Engraver but those two machines are my last.

My iPhone, iPad and Imac all talk to each other and thats the future of digital communications.

Curt, you do know that Apple's OS is just a Linux Distro don't you......Unix Rocks :)
.

I think OSX is descended from one of the BSD's, not technically linux but yeah, they're related. Making a statement like that in the wrong place could start a holy war:D:D. The story as I understand it is when Steve Jobs was fired from Apple, he founded or became head of NeXT, a high end workstation manufacturer that used a spin of *bsd for their O.S. When Jobs came back to Apple, he brought NExT or at least the O.S. with him and Apple later bought NeXT. Linux Torvalds used Minix as a pattern for his "hobby".

http://www.thelinuxdaily.com/2010/04/the-first-linux-announcement-from-linus-torvalds/

I spend way too much time on ubuntuforums and their links.:o

[Paul McGaha]

She wound up buying a Dell from Dell Outlet. It's a Windows 7 desktop. The price was $499 and the live chat person told her about a 20% off coupon on Facebook which brought the price down to $399.

I think she said an I3 processer of some type. I'll ask her for a link to the machine.

Thanks again for your thoughts everyone. It did help us make a better buying decision.

PHM

[Keith Outten]

Curt,

While Linux isn't exactly a Unix OS it is posix compliant which the new Apple OS seems to be as well. Whether it is a first, second or third cousin its the same family, so I understand. I don't know if he is using a Linux kernel or his is modified to suit but it is the same family and thats close enough IMO. I'm not an expert concerning operating systems but when you drop to the command line what you see is very familier :)
.

[Brian Elfert]

As already mentioned, Microsoft dominates computers used by business except certain industries. My employer has gotten rid of almost all Macs due to the high cost of Macintosh hardware. I work on Windows and Linux servers for a living. My employer also used to have about 25 Apple servers, but Apple quit the server market and we only have two left.

I personally use Windows at home because I have stuff that won't work on Mac. I also don't like the high cost of Mac hardware. I think if Macintosh hardware was a lot closer to PC hardware then a lot more people would use it. Interestingly, I have a co-worker who has an old Macbook at home, but he refuses to use an iPhone or iPad and wouldn't take one for free except to sell it.

[David Weaver]

I wouldn't consider putting a kid who might end up in the business world (anywhere in it) on apple, either. Apple's version of my laptop...actually one with a little bit less hardware prowess ....cost more than twice as much as my laptop did.

I haven't ever seen any apple computers in my office or in my competitors' offices, nor any of my clients offices. Apple makes their living around here by selling to folks using other peoples' money (school districts, etc), but businesses are still and probably will for a long time be a lot more demanding about the computing power and software selection that they get per dollar.

[Darius Ferlas]

In some cases, no PC can match the qualities of an apple product:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UiNZodgBUMg

[Brian Elfert]

The Macintosh is still pretty popular for creative stuff. Places like ad agencies, magazines, and newspapers still use Macs for some of their work. Photoshop was originally Mac only, but now many folks run it on Windows. final Cut Pro is a popular video editing tool that is by Apple and of course for Mac only. Certainly, the market share of Macs in the corporate world is measured in a few percent of the market.

I know folks who work at companies that develop products that work exclusively with Windows, but some of them use Macbook Air notebooks because they are a really good product and the company has virtual Windows desktops for employees to use that can be accessed from a Mac.

[David Weaver]

You're right about that, Brian. Most of the photo, video and journalistic production types favor the macs. Mac has been catering to that crowd for as long as I can remember, and maybe things are different now, but back in the mid 1990s, windows offerings were pretty weak for the less technical and more artistic stuff.

[Jerome Stanek]

Place I worked for use Apples for rendering trade show booths but when they really have an intense drawing to work on the design guys use their personal desktops. They are very high end machines and showed me a comparison of one of their drawings. It took 30 minutes on the Mac and 10 on the PC and these macs are the newest and greatest from Apple.

[Scott Shepherd]

Place I worked for use Apples for rendering trade show booths but when they really have an intense drawing to work on the design guys use their personal desktops. They are very high end machines and showed me a comparison of one of their drawings. It took 30 minutes on the Mac and 10 on the PC and these macs are the newest and greatest from Apple.

What's your point? If you've watched a movie in the last decade, it was probably edited and put together using a Mac. I'd say that's about as high end of video processing as you'll get. If it wasn't for Apple messing up Final Cut Pro on the last release, they'd still be in 95 out of 100 places that do that.

It's all relative. Stating personal experiences doesn't mean anything. You might have a car that has lasted you 500,000 miles. I might have the same car that was a lemon. It's relative to your situation, but one's own situation doesn't make a trend. The "mac's are overpriced toys" argument has been around for decades. Last time I checked, Apple was one of the most successful companies in the world, much less the USA. You don't get to the top of the entire world market by producing junk that doesn't work.

In the last few quarters, PC makers have taken a beating because sales are flat or down. Apple sales on computers (and everything else) has been up. So when everyone else is going down, Apple's sales and marketshare are going up. Again, I'd hardly link that to a company that is just flat out "fooling" so many people, so often.

A PC might be perfect for you, but a Mac might be perfect for the next person. It's personal preference, just like tools, machinery, cars, restaurants, and everything else in life. If it works for you and makes you happy, then use whatever you want.

[Matt Meiser]

Apple sales on computers (and everything else) has been up. So when everyone else is going down, Apple's sales and marketshare are going up.

Might want to check again. Mac sales are down the last 2 quarters on the last chart I saw. Other than a few spikes they are basically flat over the last couple years. They are getting beaten up pretty bad on smart phones lately. And their stock is down over 40% since fall. Good company, but you are painting a pretty rosy picture. However, I'm getting another iPhone in 1 month and 2 days and I came close to buying a Mac instead of my Dell. In the end I couldn't justify over double the price for the same hardware specs. And i would have still had to run Windows on it for a couple things.

[David Weaver]

I don't know, I think they're flat out fooling people on PCs. It's not like it's the only place in the world where people overpay for something comparable because of marketing and brand loyalty.

On the rest of the gadgets where they've innovated, so be it. You get paid for innovating. But you can get paid for creating a loyal following and throwing in nonspectacular items with the innovative items, too. Especially if you can scare inexperienced users into thinking something else is immensely complex, dangerous and risky.

I watched my BIL throw away a 3 year old $2200 computer that turned itself into a paperweight, and while he was doing it tell me how much better apple gear is than a PC. That was 4 years ago, and he replaced it with a $3000 mac machine. I still am using the $650 notebook computer that I was on then, though I did add another $675 PC last year to ditch a 12 year-old PC that was still operating in the guest room of our house. The old notebook is now the guest room PC. You really have to work hard to create that kind of brand loyalty, but apple has done it. To be fair, I have spent about $125 on replacement batteries over the last 7 years. I can't comprehend the roughly $4000 difference between his two purchases and mine.

That's the kind of stuff a lot of us just don't "get". Microsoft made the PC platform fairly difficult to profit on from a hardware perspective. That's to my benefit, I'm glad they did.

[Scott Shepherd]

Might want to check again. Mac sales are down the last 2 quarters on the last chart I saw. Other than a few spikes they are basically flat over the last couple years. They are getting beaten up pretty bad on smart phones lately. And their stock is down over 40% since fall. Good company, but you are painting a pretty rosy picture. However, I'm getting another iPhone in 1 month and 2 days and I came close to buying a Mac instead of my Dell. In the end I couldn't justify over double the price for the same hardware specs. And i would have still had to run Windows on it for a couple things.

I guess we're looking at different charts. Also, last time I checked, it's still bigger than Dell, Microsoft, HP, or anyone else in the business.... I'll take the trend line on growth over anyone else in the market. Let's look at growth on Dell, Microsoft, HP, or anyone else.

260943260944

David, do you own a new Mac? I find that 99% of the time, people that have a lot to say about them don't own one. It's always "I owned one 10 years ago". Last time I checked, there were more app's I could download on a Mac to do just about anything I ever wanted to do. I'm still waiting for people to tell me what is it, that's so mission critical to their personal life, that can't be done on a Mac. The "it doesn't have software" issue stopped about 10 years ago.

[David Weaver]

No, scott, it's not a matter of what PCs do that macs don't, it's a matter of other than some proprietary print layout software and video editing stuff, they do the same thing and it costs 2-3 times as much to get the same capability without any better hardware life. And now that a lot of the hardware bits in them are the same as PCs so it makes even less sense to me. I can buy a budget HP or toshiba PC with most of the same components for a fraction, or I can get the apple label on the computer and basically pay several thousand extra dollars each decade to get it. Their business model is designed to squeeze maximum dollars out of their marketing strategy and out of users in add-ons or current fees (like they charge for free items in their TV device or itunes). HP and toshiba make some lame attempts to do that by trying to grab your rear if you need a replacement power cord or something, but that's easily avoided by not buying their branded accessories at department stores.

Good for Apple. I'd rather own their stock and buy PCs. I don't know that I'd rather own their stock any longer at its levels, but you know what I mean by that statement. You, me and everyone else own a bunch of it just because it's part of every index we'd invest in. But the argument that their hardware and operating system are the same on a value comparison..dollar for dollar (meaning they'd have to be twice+ as functional, twice+ as long lasting, twice+ as enjoyable to use...)...well, i just don't buy into their marketing.

And on the smaller devices, neither does the rest of the world, where they don't enjoy as much ability to convince people that they should spend lots more for the same thing (vs. android, etc).

[Darius Ferlas]

If you've watched a movie in the last decade, it was probably edited and put together using a Mac. I'd say that's about as high end of video processing as you'll get.
Actually, that is not entirely true. Apple was "better" when they used the 64 bit CISC while most of the rest of the main stream was 32 bit RISC. That changed when Apple went Intel.

Sure, some studios still use Macs to make movies though, ironically, Apple Inc. is among the largest suppliers of Linux and Linux based software to make those movies. Many studios use their own proprietary software as none off the shelf titles is really up to the task in the computer farm environment. Computers used to make commercial movies are not even available in your average store as they are computer farms consisting of hundreds, sometimes thousands of computers working in parallel.

For instance Weta Digital (did District9, Day the Earth Stood Still, Jumper, King Kong, Lord of the Rings, Fantastic Four, Eragon, X-Men, i-Robot) uses 4,000 blade servers with 35,000 cores running Linux, with 90% of their desktops running Ubuntu Linux. When you consider the cost of hardware and software licensing then choosing Apple would be pretty much an expensive frivolity.

These are some of the movies made with Linux in the last 10 years:

Avatar
The Day the Earth Stood Still
Shrek the Third
X-Men The Last Stand
King Kong
Lord of the Rings: Return of the King
The Matrix Reloaded
2 Fast 2 Furious
Junglebook 2
Incredible Hulk
Pirates of the Caribbean
Sinbad

[Matt Meiser]

http://www.zdnet.com/apple-q2-2013-hardware-sales-by-the-numbers-7000014459/

Apple is selling around 4M macs a quarter. Yes they are gaining some market share because PC sales are down because people are moving to tablets and companies are doing longer refesh cycles and moving to virtual environments. Extending refresh cycles one year (3 to 4) cuts PC purchases pretty dramatically and frankly there's not a lot of reasons for a 3-year refresh right now. A major food company I know is deploying thin clients to office users and I'm sure they aren't the only ones. Those people are all still Windows users, just not on a PC. They are a terminal services license on Windows Server.

On the phones, the news is everywhere that Samsung pretty much trounced Apple last quarter. Some will say thats because Android is better, I'd guess the fact you can get a Galaxy S3 for 1/3 or less the cost of an iPhone 5 is what's really driving it.

[Scott Shepherd]

No, scott, it's not a matter of what PCs do that macs don't, it's a matter of other than some proprietary print layout software and video editing stuff, they do the same thing and it costs 2-3 times as much to get the same capability without any better hardware life. And now that a lot of the hardware bits in them are the same as PCs so it makes even less sense to me. I can buy a budget HP or toshiba PC with most of the same components for a fraction, or I can get the apple label on the computer and basically pay several thousand extra dollars each decade to get it. Their business model is designed to squeeze maximum dollars out of their marketing strategy and out of users in add-ons or current fees (like they charge for free items in their TV device or itunes). HP and toshiba make some lame attempts to do that by trying to grab your rear if you need a replacement power cord or something, but that's easily avoided by not buying their branded accessories at department stores.

Good for Apple. I'd rather own their stock and buy PCs. I don't know that I'd rather own their stock any longer at its levels, but you know what I mean by that statement. You, me and everyone else own a bunch of it just because it's part of every index we'd invest in. But the argument that their hardware and operating system are the same on a value comparison..dollar for dollar (meaning they'd have to be twice+ as functional, twice+ as long lasting, twice+ as enjoyable to use...)...well, i just don't buy into their marketing.

And on the smaller devices, neither does the rest of the world, where they don't enjoy as much ability to convince people that they should spend lots more for the same thing (vs. android, etc).

So the answer is no, you don't have one and haven't used one recently. So you're telling me something you've never owned or never seen isn't as good or cheap as something you do own and have seen.

That's exactly my point. I was a die hard PC guy since PC's came out. I've been using computers since 197something. 2 years ago I bought a used mac laptop. Now, there's a Mac on my desk at work, and I own a Mac laptop. I can assure you, the difference is far from a "feeling" or "hype". There's a real user interface difference that I prefer. I'm willing to pay a premium to not have my computers irritate me all day long, which is what all the remaining PC's we use do.

If anyone can, with a straight face, say that the Windows user experience is better than OSX, from the end user standpoint, I'd stand corrected.

[David Weaver]

I have been forced to use a mac a few times in the last 15 years. Whatever was so great about it didn't jump out at me, but if the price equation was the other way around, I would use it.

I use a PC all day every day for work, then I use a PC at night. I can't remember the last time a PC "irritated", let alone "all day". I would suspect that a lot of the other people who have used apple products (my wife likes the devices) also have no clue what's so great about them. I don't. I won't buy my wife an apple notebook, even though she has three apple devices, and that's the only thing she doesn't give me grief about because even though she's at the lowest end of the user scale in power, she does get "irritated" by our PCs, either.

BIL (not the one mentioned above) does all of the stuff for the school district he works for. Means he gets whatever he wants for free as his personal user. Of course, he's got macs floating around for testing this or that, the SD buys tons of them, but despite having a M.S. in the field, he's using an android phone and a PC.

Not everyone buys into it. If mac could make their stuff cheaper than PC without cutting reliabilty or usability, then I would. I see they are still shipping about 10% of the PC market. Despite all of the dominance that I hear about from apple users, I seem to remember that they've always been about 10% of the PC market, and I can't believe that a lot of that isn't school purchases where it's easier to spend someone else's money, even at the discounted rates not available to us.

Last year, my PC with Win 7, 8 gigs of ram, a terabyte HDD and a quad core I7 was something like $680 off of ebay. Mac can't compete- note the common theme that you still haven't addressed...where the value is with such disparity in cost.

[Darius Ferlas]

If anyone can, with a straight face, say that the Windows user experience is better than OSX, from the end user standpoint, I'd stand corrected.

I went the opposite route from yours in late 1990's - I switched from Macs to Win and to Linux.
Macs made me feel too constrained and suffocating. On occasion I have a chance to work briefly with a Mac, mostly laptops that people bring to work because they cannot figure something out and they need help. The machines surely look sharp but... with the same specs as my Win7 Lenovo W520, why the heck are they so sloooow?

When it comes to the user interface, it is a very personal thing (are brunettes prettier than blondes?), Linux is your best bet as you can make it look and work pretty much any imaginable way, including the confusing and jumpy Mac interface.

[Joe Angrisani]

I guess we're looking at different charts....

Who's "Gartner"?

[David Weaver]

Who's "Gartman"?

Looks like a guy who shows Lenovo's growth dominance over Apple.

[Chris Padilla]

Well this has wandered WAY off topic to the original post.

If you guys wish to discuss Apple vs. PC, I invite you to start another thread.