Router Lathe - a different way to skin a cat

[Olaf Vogel]

This is my second piece on this machine.
My first attempt at this was fraught with issues - way too much to learn in one shot to come up with something that actually looked ok.

This is a 300 lbs piece of hazelnut, about 24" in diameter.
Using a chain hoist, I got it into the shop and mounted up without any real effort - (a first)

Considering everything went according to plan and I had no major hitches, I figured I'd not temp Murphy and call it a night.
Unfortunately I won't be able to get to it for a few more nights. That will be driving me crazy.

Olaf


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[Dick Mahany]

Not sure this piece is big enough, but please keep pics coming and be safe!! :D

Looks like you've got one incredible process to document here and I'll be watching the progress with great interest.

[Roger Chandler]

Dude........how long are the screws [bolts?] holding this onto the faceplate? If it were me, I would sure want some tailstock support for this hunk of wood!

What are you trying to make with this? Is a router the only way to go? Just wondering! +1 on Dicks comment........BE SAFE!!!

[Dan Hintz]

Dude........how long are the screws [bolts?] holding this onto the faceplate? If it were me, I would sure want some tailstock support for this hunk of wood!

I was thinkin' the saaaaaaame thing....

[Brian Finney]

I don't know that I'm too concerned about tailstock support if you keep speed well down eg 20rpm. Anything faster may dislodge the router, and you really don't want that flying across the shop.

IMHO it's the feed rate at the router bit that is critical. Which means that the rotation should be slowed as the diameter being cut gets bigger.

[Keith Outten]

Brian,

Your setup is much like a CNC Lathe in that the piece turns slowly and the speed necessary to do the work is done by the router or spindle.
.

[Keith Christopher]

that piece looks big enough to put on a bench and hollow out with a router without 'mounting' it to a lathe. and with just being attached to the headstock I personally would not turn the machine on. Lots of mass means lots of energy even at slow speeds. I personally think it is a need idea, but looks unsafe to me too.

Be safe.

[Doug Ladendorf]

Jiminy Christmas! Tuning in to see your process.

[Glen Blanchard]

Dude........how long are the screws [bolts?] holding this onto the faceplate?

I don't know much about those screws but I can tell you one thing with certainty. They ain't sheetrock screws!! That chunk o' tree would be rolling on the floor by now if they were. LOL

[Richard Coers]

I'd suggest a little trimming with an electric chainsaw. There is way more mass on one side of the log on the tail side. It will take forever to get that round with the router, but you can reduce that time in half with some smart trimming. I would have also used a faceplate twice that size, and machined the face of the log before mounting the faceplate. Good luck!

[Thom Sturgill]

I think this is a case where mounting between centers and squaring the face before mounting the faceplate would have paid off. It appears that the center of the piece rises as it moves toward the tail. Both the top and bottom of the piece appear to rise in the picture, though that could be an effect of the camera angle. I do realize that at 300# there may not be too much choice in mounting it.

[Brian Finney]

Brian,

....much like a CNC Lathe.....
.

Keith,

That's just about it. Interesting to see what Olaf does; the router is held on by a cable tie.

If that piece of bark wasn't missing you could have a large natural edge bowl.

The other issue is that it will be an end grain bowl with an increased possibility of cracking. I power carved (off the lathe) a sycamore end grain bowl approx 15" dia and it started to crack in the side/base. Ground it out and made it the base. 260793

[Richard Coers]

Oh man, I didn't look at it closely enough to see that cable tie. I wouldn't be in the same county with that thing in action. Tell us their is more to holding that router on! PLEASE! Why did you take the base off the router? Mount the router through the base against a vertical face on the cross slide.



Keith,

That's just about it. Interesting to see what Olaf does; the router is held on by a cable tie.

If that piece of bark wasn't missing you could have a large natural edge bowl.

The other issue is that it will be an end grain bowl with an increased possibility of cracking. I power carved (off the lathe) a sycamore end grain bowl approx 15" dia and it started to crack in the side/base. Ground it out and made it the base. 260793

[Brian Finney]

...... Mount the router through the base against a vertical face on the cross slide.

Richard,

As it is I don't think Olaf will get full depth of the piece with the router without some mods to the support; if you put a vertical face on the cross slide it will make matters worse.

I'm not too fussed about the cable tie or the screws, provided that the piece is turned very slowly. This is not turning as we know it - I hope! - there will not be large centrifugal forces if the speed is kept very low; in fact the piece could be hand turned as the router cuts. Could give a whole new meaning to the term hand-turned.;)

[Mark Bolton]

Its a broad assumption but looking at the rest of the equipment (around the router and including the lathe) it would seem the individual making the arrangement (Olaf) likely has a pretty good depth of knowledge with regards to mechanics and machining. My call would be, other than speed (how long it will take), his bases are likely covered. As has been mentioned, the RPM of the work piece will likely be crawling by the time you get out to the perimeter.

Seeing this reminded me of a show I saw a looong time ago and cant remember where. I seem to recall it being a guy out west who made these massive wood bowls. I want to say like 3' in diameter or better. He had a setup similar to this but on steroids. The whole setup may have been perhaps 6 feet tall or better. It was basically the works of a bridgeport with a router mounted on it as I recall. Ran some sort of big ball mill on the end of it. Routed these massive bowls out in a very similar way but it looked very slow. Most of his forms had all sorts of holes/voids in them where the router/mill method would likely work far better than a lance or conventional turning tools.

Will be interesting to see/hear more.

[Olaf Vogel]

I don't know that I'm too concerned about tailstock support if you keep speed well down eg 20rpm. Anything faster may dislodge the router, and you really don't want that flying across the shop.

IMHO it's the feed rate at the router bit that is critical. Which means that the rotation should be slowed as the diameter being cut gets bigger.


Brian, you've got it! low speed.

For whatever reason, I really like working with large pieces. While its difficult, I do enjoy the engineering challenge and those large bowls when finished really have the wow factor.
That being said, I thought for a long time about how to do this, with green wood. Obviously the pieces start off unbalanced. They're too big for a band saw. I've seen people do some amazing carving with chainsaws, but I don't know how (yet?!?!)
So now run this up to cutting speed, maybe 300 rpm. The forces would be unreal. No matter how big or heavy your lathe is.

This is lathe is picked up for $400 and spent about 2 weeks stripping and cleaning. 2 years ago I realized how much of this really great old machinery is still around. Most doesn't meet modern technical standards for accuracy, safety (belt drive), functionality etc. But its professional grade, well built and can be serviced without fancy electronics.

This is an 1926 American Tools Works, 16", with 10" riser blocks, for 36" swing (But i think its only about 32" over the carriage).
Even at 4000 lbs, and being bolted firmly into concrete, the idea of a 300 lbs piece, off balance, rotating at 300 rpms scares me.
I've tried it on my my pattern lathe! Took me 2 days to get the blank balanced enough to spin and another 2 to get it into the right shape.

So this lathe runs from about 10 rpms (using the back gears) up to about 500 rpm (which I've not yet hit)
Very low rpm, hence no need for a tailstock. The bolts are 1/2" x 6" grade 8. the spindle is 2.75" dia.

The router sits on the carriage on a DIY contraption of oak (I don't have fancy metal working tools and have changed the design a few times already). Maybe I'll have a metal one made if I finalize a design, but that might be a ways off.
Yes the router is attached by zip ties and so far thats a good thing. i.e. if I over-drive the cutting speed of the router, the zip ties break and it falls off. It has happened twice and its not dramatic.
The next gen solution will be to allow the router to tip down and out of way if the feed speed it too high. That involves a new design....sigh.

Yes, I'll rough trim this up a lot with an electric chain saw. The circle I cut in the end (took about 60 sec) is so I know exactly where center is and where to cut to with the chainsaw.

So far, this is an experiment and there's a pretty steep learning curve. I'm hoping, that as I learn, I'll be able to do things wildly off-center, multi-axis etc.
Since its a metal lathe, there's fine controls on the x/y axis, curves of various diameters etc. It even has automated feed speeds.
I will be limited on what I can do on the inside of hollow forms. however I'm hoping that at that point the blank will be balanced and I can put the piece on my other lathe for hollowing.

I do miss the traditional method of holding chisels, getting into that zen state and working on a piece.
My regular lathe is currently disassembled, at the cottage and waiting for a new shop to be built.... now if it would stop friggen snowing there.

All that being said, I'm pretty good at 3D visualization, but some of this stuff is giving me headaches! Its serious fun though experimenting.
And if work would stop getting in the way of my play...I'd be back out there.


Olaf

[Brian Finney]

Olaf,

Rather than a chainsaw consider an Arbotech Pro 4 woodcarver http://www.arbortech.com.au/view/woodworking/pro4-woodcarver/, or similar; basically an aggressive woodcarving disk on an angle grinder.

Another useful toy would be arbotech's mini grinder fitted with a saburr 2" carbide donut http://www.chainsawsculptors.com/saburr/Index.htm. I used both on my bowl - the shape of the bowl follows the shape of the bark and is triangular. Your's is almost round but that exisiting 'lip' on the top edge of the bowl could be a feature esp if you cut the top edge opposite lower - this is where the carbide donut would come it - both to cut the top edge lower and reduce the wall thickness in places that are outside the router circular cut.

Keep the pics coming

Brian

[Olaf Vogel]

While trying build a website, I was looking around for old pics. I realized that I never followed up on this.

I did finally get the router lathe working - to a point. That large block didn't work out, so I chopped it in half and kept going.
I was able to get it carved round and weight down to the point where I can turn it on my regular lathe.
https://plus.google.com/photos/102238903921963704001/albums/6029697319200866097

So some success.

Initially I used a flat sided router bit, because it was cheap. I found that 1/2" spiral bits a just as cheap and much more aggressive.
But I would like a solution that removes wood faster than a router.

In mean time, I finished building my shop and have been pre-occupied by new toys there on weekends.
That gives me weekdays to play with this one. But this winter has been brutal in Toronto. Consistently -20C and windy as hell.
There's no incentive to go outside; my wife has opted for hibernation.

<awaiting spring - ok, I'm a wimp>
Olaf

[Don Bunce]

Instead of using a router, I would suggest a boring bar along the lines of what this guy uses.

http://www.poetv.com/video.php?vid=109020

[Olaf Vogel]

I actually did see that and considered such a solution. Not the easiest thing to build or mount on a lathe.
He's using a large end mill (~ 2") on a shaft, not sure how to mount a collet, a few pillow blocks and a motor. But it would need about 5k rpm.

Then some sort of mount that allows controlled movement.

I cheated and used a $70 triton router with speed adjust instead. Figured I can trash the router if this all fails - I hate it anyway. :)

[Don Bunce]

It shouldn't be too difficult to make something to attach to the cross slide. You'll have to turn the carriage and cross slide wheels like an Etch-a-Sketch to cut curves, but if it is mainly for roughing out, that won't be a problem.

As was mentioned earlier, a chainsaw wheel on an angle grinder is a good idea, too.

Here is another video that might provide some inspiration:

http://www.mnoriginal.org/episode/mn-original-show-112/virgil-leih/

[Olaf Vogel]

This is the third time I've watched that video.

Both these guys are obsessive, way out there and nuts.
However, its my kind of nuts. And I greatly appreciate what they'd done.
Given their huge investment of time and money, I hope they are enjoying at least enough success to keep going.

Unlike Virgil, I don't think I'm nuts enough the use a chainsaw on a running lathe - that scares the %^&*( out of me.
I would love to have his Oliver 66. and if I found one for sale, I might mortgage the house for it.

But an angle grinder and an arbortech industrial wood carver would be good. I just been able to pull the trigger on a $200 blade.
Heck, that half of what I paid for the lathe!

Do I love working with large pieces. Similar to the comments in both video, I find incredible beauty in the natural grain and patterns. Large works do just display that better

Olaf

[Don Bunce]

Olaf,

I ran across this video on Youtube, thought it might be something to consider...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqWBnMp3aNY