White vs Blue paper steel confusion - Sharpness?

[Ales Asenberger]

Hello,

I would like to understand next opinions:

"...I prefer white for chisels doing hard work in hard wood. Blue steel when I need the sharpest edge I can get. White steel when forged well is extremely tough, blue steel is very "homogenous" and as a result allows the edge to become incredibly thin wich as we all know means sharp" or "As I stated earlier,white steel is very tough when well forged. Blue steel because of the alloys added can take a much finer edge. "

The ORIGINAL THREAD, where above quote came from:

http://www.ibiblio.org/japanwood/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=7&sid=2d91e5c90776c3f969e3b38f222d7560 (http://www.ibiblio.org/japanwood/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=7&sid=2d91e5c90776c3f969e3b38f222d7560)

Usualy when I was reading about Japanese steels, it was always written that White or Superwhite can take sharpest edge. So which is now true???

Best, Cheers

[Christian Castillo]

...Blue Steel for the sharpest edge? That goes contrary to everything I've ever learned about Japanese tool steels, for the finest edge, I always thought the the steel with less alloying elements provided the finest edge, like White Steel #1.

[Sam Takeuchi]

If you look up those quotes in red, you'll find the original thread. OP in that thread seem a bit mixed up on his info.

Reading up on blue and white steel on this forum, you should be able to gather good user experiences as well as data sheet from Hitachi to look into composition and everything.

[Stanley Covington]

What Sam said. The guy has it backwards and sideways.

[Stuart Tierney]

Hello,

I would like to unerstand next opinions:

"...I prefer white for chisels doing hard work in hard wood. Blue steel when I need the sharpest edge I can get. White steel when forged well is extremely tough, blue steel is very "homgenous" and as a result allows the edge to become incredibly thin wich as we all know means sharp" or "As I stated earlier,white steel is very tough when well forged. Blue steel because of the alloys added can take a much finer edge. "


Usualy when I was reading about Japanese steels, it was always written that White or Superwhite can take sharpest edge. So which is now true???

Best, Cheers

Simply put.

White steel is iron, carbon and not much else. Blue steel is iron, carbon, tungsten and chromium.

White steel can and will take a finer, sharper edge, is generally tougher and more resilient, easier to work with during manufacture, less expensive and is, in most cases, the best steel for chisels, especially chisels that will be struck during use.

Blue steel will take a very good edge and keep an edge for longer than white steel can in planing and paring cuts. Because of the added alloying elements, it's a little more brittle, is slightly more difficult to work with during manufacture, slightly more expensive and is ideal for planes and paring chisels.

This is not the be all and end all 'rule', as there is some cross over between the steels and a blue steel chisel can be a wonderful thing, as can a white steel plane stay sharp for a very long time. But as a general 'rule', this covers it with some exceptions for special circumstances.

The 'sharpest edge' doesn't mean anything if you can't actually get the edge there though...

Sooo, white steel is easier to sharpen and is 'more likely' to have a better edge put on it because of that. If you're able to confidently put an excellent edge on white steel, then blue steel shouldn't be a problem.

I hope that helps,

Stu.

(Speaking only for myself, white steel for chisels, blue steel for planes. HSS/PM-HSS for either.)

[Stanley Covington]

What Sam said. The guy has it backwards and sideways.

Here is a post I made previously that specifically addresses the question.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?199060-Planing-contest-in-Japan-Shavings-to-a-whole-other-level&p=2066611#post2066611

[Chris Vandiver]

Simply put.

White steel is iron, carbon and not much else. Blue steel is iron, carbon, tungsten and chromium.

White steel can and will take a finer, sharper edge, is generally tougher and more resilient, easier to work with during manufacture, less expensive and is, in most cases, the best steel for chisels, especially chisels that will be struck during use.

Blue steel will take a very good edge and keep an edge for longer than white steel can in planing and paring cuts. Because of the added alloying elements, it's a little more brittle, is slightly more difficult to work with during manufacture, slightly more expensive and is ideal for planes and paring chisels.

This is not the be all and end all 'rule', as there is some cross over between the steels and a blue steel chisel can be a wonderful thing, as can a white steel plane stay sharp for a very long time. But as a general 'rule', this covers it with some exceptions for special circumstances.

The 'sharpest edge' doesn't mean anything if you can't actually get the edge there though...

Sooo, white steel is easier to sharpen and is 'more likely' to have a better edge put on it because of that. If you're able to confidently put an excellent edge on white steel, then blue steel shouldn't be a problem.

I hope that helps,

Stu.

(Speaking only for myself, white steel for chisels, blue steel for planes. HSS/PM-HSS for either.)

This(white steel chisels, blue steel plane irons) is the general rule followed by most Japanese carpenters(woodworkers).

[Ales Asenberger]

Thank you for answers. I knew that WHITE is the SharpMaster :), but the original thread, where my Quote came from, realy made me :confused: for a second. Anyway, I add the original thread in my start post, Thanks again

[Wilbur Pan]

Although it's generally true that blue steel has more abrasion resistance due to the added alloying agents than white steel, the forge welding process is important enough in the construction of a Japanese plane blade or chisel that the blacksmith is probably as important a factor as the type of steel used.

Or, as I like to put it, it's sort of like figuring out whether to make a bookcase out of cherry or maple. At some level, it doesn't matter, since Frank Klausz will make a better bookcase than I will. ;)

[Matthew N. Masail]

I've used my white steel chisels to chop through ebony and ipe plane soles and they held up amazingly. the edge would chip if honed at 30, but at about 35 they stayed razor sharp, I was really impressed.

[ian maybury]

Only generalisations - but carbon steels tend to be hard but brittle, but to take a very fine edge.

Alloy steels (that's steels containing chromium, molybdenum and the like) can be more awkward to harden, tend to be tougher and more abrasion resistant, harder to hone, more corrosion resistant and harder to put a fine edge on - if for no other reason than that the tougher material is more inclined to turn/form a wire edge...

Beyond that there seems as the guys say from what i've read to be ample scope for finessing the composition and heat treatment to produce steels of either type with characteristics that overlap the two groups.

ian