#78 clones?

[steven c newman]

On Feebay the other day, I "won" a Wards #78 clone, complete, with all of the parts:D for about $30 shipped to my door. It will get here next weekend or so. Trying to find out a little bit about these types of planes, as i have yet to own one. This one does have a fence, a depth stop, a knicker just showing through behund the DS, oh and, it does have a blade too.:cool:


Any info out there on what Wards used?:confused:

[Cody Cantrell]

I have a Wards Master and I was told by someone more knowledgable than me it was made by Millers Falls (#85).

Cody

[Jim Koepke]

Any info out there on what Wards used?

Like many of what were the big box stores of their day, Wards would let their tool needs out to bid. Their tools were provided by who ever gave the best price for the period of time in the contract.

The easiest way to identify the maker is by their unique attributes. For Stanley it could be the threads they used.

jtk

[Andrae Covington]

On the Stanley 78 and common copies, you can usually tell the maker by the tote.
260660

[steven c newman]

I will look at the tote as soon as it arrives, maybe this Friday. This will be the first non-bench or block plane I have owned. May be a learning curve to these??

[Richard Line]

I think there is a learning curve to using the 78's well. Yes, that means I've been having something less than stellar success with my 78 (a new Stanley). At the risk of high-jacking this thread, I certainly would be open to advise on using the 78 rabbet plane, or a link/reference to such.

[steven c newman]

No problem, I'd like to learn, too.

[Andrae Covington]

I've only used my MF #85 a few times, and earlier this year I bought a Veritas Skew Rabbet, which is much nicer all around, though of course more expensive.

Anyway, I think the first thing is making sure the blade is lined up with the right side of the plane body, or slightly proud, depending on where the nicker ends up. If the blade is too far out or in from the edge of the body, the side wall of the rabbet will be sloped or stepped rather than vertical.

Depth adjustment can be a little tricky, as it relies on a rotating cam lever rather than a screw like most metal bench planes (except the Record 778). I had more luck lightly tapping the blade with a hammer more like a wooden plane, with the cap iron firm but not completely tightened until I had the blade where I wanted it. You can set it for a fairly aggressive cut, but a finer cut is easier to control when you are starting the rabbet. Once there's a decent shoulder to follow, then you can set it deeper.

The single-arm fence is a poor design (once again, Record improved their 778 copy by adding a second arm) and tends to be wobbly. For a novice like me, keeping the plane vertical with every pass is a challenge, and the fence troubles can make this worse. Unless you are creating a wide groove away from the edge, rather than a rabbet, you may have better luck clamping or nailing a batten on the workpiece to guide the right side of the plane, rather than using the fence. The main problem with this approach is that you have to remove the depth stop.

I think most people use the molding plane technique of first starting near the far end of the workpiece and making a short stroke or two, then backing up and taking a longer stroke, then backing up more, etc. until you're all the way to the near end. Then you can begin to make full passes.

[Jim Koepke]

There are a few things to remember when working with a plane like the #78, its clones and combination planes.

One is the lateral adjustment and the sharpening. If the blade is not square to the sole and the sides it will be a problem cutting a rabbet square. The side of the blade can distort the rabbet if it isn't square to the cutting edge of the blade.

Most of the time the blade on most rabbet planes is set flush by setting the plane on its side on a piece of wood or the bench with the lever cap slightly loose. Then the blade is pressed so it is flush with the side.

Check all the auxiliary screws, depth stop, fence etc. often. Vibrations can cause these to work loose.

Depending on the plane being used, the left hand's finger tips should be guiding the fence on the work and the right hand should be moving the plane forward. Sometimes I do this with the left hand's thumb and heel atop the plane. Awkward, but not a hard to get used to position.

FWIW, one of my Stanley 45s is more likely to be used for making rabbets than my Record #778.

jtk

[steven c newman]

Near as i can tell, the tote matches photo #1 Appears to be a Stanley version.

[Richard Line]

Andrae and Jim, thanks for the advice and tips on using a #78. Now I've got to go practice and get better, then I'll feel ready to use it for making rabbets. In the past I've often sawed out the rabbet using a batten as a fence. But that is kind of hard for smaller and stopped rabbets.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

A plow works well for rabbets too if you have a properly sized iron. Before I got my filletster finely tuned, it was often my go-to, as the fence setup was a little more amenable to this work. On larger rabbets, if you're going by hand, it's often quicker and easier to plow two grooves with your thinnest plow iron, and then break off the remaining piece, and clean it up with a rabbet plane if needed. Plus, you end up with lots of long square pieces, great for stickers or hiding grooves when you were too lazy to do blind dovetails.

[Jim Koepke]

In the past I've often sawed out the rabbet using a batten as a fence. But that is kind of hard for smaller and stopped rabbets.

Here is a link to my musings on using a Stanley 45 for making stopped rabbets and other cuts:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?196104-Today-s-Epiphany-With-the-Stanley-45

It was submitted to PWW but the response seemed to indicate they didn't understand the utility of such a set up, after all, doesn't everyone just use a router for that?

jtk

[steven c newman]

Right now, i have to use a saw and a chisel for rebbets260780But for stopped grooves, ihave to drill a start hole, and a stop hole, clamp a fence in place and use this little guy260781for things like a Pencil groove in a lap desk

[Frank Drew]

I agree with Andrae on Record's 778; it's a distinct improvement on Stanley's 78, and is one of my favorite, most useful, planes.

[steven c newman]

Ok, for everyone's viewing pleasure:260850Iron says WARDS MASTER. Tote is a Stanley #78 style. ALL parts are there, too! Now to learn all about this new little toy!

Had to re-size a few photos for this site:260879260880260881Seems to be a Stanley #78 clone. Iron says Wards Master. Have sharpened the iron.

[steven c newman]

Tried it out on a rabbet, noticed it wanted to coast towards the outside of each pass. Better grip, maybe? I think I figured out this nicker thing, maybe. Of the four "points", one does not potrude out the bottom, two bruise the wood if they are used, and just one cuts the grain. I think I have the edge turned the right way, at least the wat it came with the plane. Bevel towards the sole, right?


This might get a little use for shoulders, too. Might saw and chisel a tenon, and use this little plane to clean them up.

I think I found two spots of rust, on the entire plane. Any idea how old this little guy is?

[Jim Koepke]

Tried it out on a rabbet, noticed it wanted to coast towards the outside of each pass. Better grip, maybe? I think I figured out this nicker thing, maybe. Of the four "points", one does not potrude out the bottom, two bruise the wood if they are used, and just one cuts the grain. I think I have the edge turned the right way, at least the wat it came with the plane. Bevel towards the sole, right?


This might get a little use for shoulders, too. Might saw and chisel a tenon, and use this little plane to clean them up.

I think I found two spots of rust, on the entire plane. Any idea how old this little guy is?

The nicker should have a countersink for the screw head to assist in getting it installed correctly, but my memory tells me you have it in correctly. The two dull parts of the cloverleaf need to be sharpened for use. They may be done this way to keep users from cutting up their fingers when trying to work with the nicker. I usually only use the nicker if going across grain or working with squirrelly grain.

Though this plane may work well for shoulders and tenons a true shoulder plane will have a much lower angle of attack and will be able to take a much thinner shaving.

My guess on the age would be around the 1950s, as in from the 1940s to 1960s. It could even be later. The blade adjuster was introduced in 1925. My guess is based on the hardware details.

jtk

[steven c newman]

Got to looking at the nicker again, yep, bass ackwards. no wonder the bolt wouldn't tighten down all the way! Got ALL the rust, what little there was, cleaned off. Cap iron might need a touch up onit's underside. Seems to be a rough casting there, not finished at all has a "13" stamped up by the bolt ( mold cavity? Cast a baker's dozen at a time?) and a "C 356" down at the business end. Up by the Bullnose end, on the frame is a "1" and a "U" stamp. Thumbscrew for the fence has a "diamond" cast into it. Starting to clean up real nice. Will get a better edge on the iron later, lots of machining marks on it.

[Richard Line]

I got out to the shop a little bit today and played with my 78, using the helpful info given in this thread. What a big help. After double checking the plane's set up, and making a few small, but important, adjustments, I tried doing some rabbets. With the grain, I took the nicker out, and that worked much better than earlier attempts with the nicker in place. Started the rabbet with light cuts until I hand a small sidewall established, then started taking bigger bites. Worked great, except I still have a bit to learn about keeping the plane from tipping. Still, I was able to adjust the progress and ended up with a rabbet that was more than good enough. Next up was a cross grain rabbet. Nicker back in, followed the same advice, initially light cuts, then deepening the cuts. Came out even better. Thought I would clean up the rabbets with my shoulder plane. Wasn't much to clean up, except making the 2 rabbets match where they met - I think that took 2 swipes of the shoulder plane, with a very light cut, to take out the little bit of a step.

Thanks for the guidance guys.

[Jim Koepke]

Worked great, except I still have a bit to learn about keeping the plane from tipping.

There was a video on YouTube about using a Stanley 45. The woman who made the video had a tall dowel stuck in to one of the depth stop holes. Trying that out helped me see all the side to side movement while going along the work. After a few times it wasn't needed, it had done its job. Using it to site on something will help train a user in making consistent strokes.

jtk

[Richard Line]

That sounds like a good idea. I had tried sighting down on the right side of the plane as a vertical reference, but that lead me to over correcting. The dowl, or something similar should work well.

[steven c newman]

There was a paper put out by Stanley, telling how to take care and use this little plane.

As for that iron; Tried to flatten the back, only the three edges mirror polished up. Cleaned the other side, same thing. Almost like these were made with a hollowed out area in the middle of the iron? Or, maybe they just thickened the edges? 261118261119Kind of hard to see, but just around the three edges polished up. Edge was FACTORY hollow ground, too. I got all of that polished off, except for a small area right in the middle of the bevel. bevel was 25 Degrees, went one more while doing the stones, to 26 Degree bevel. That angle seemed to work the best.

[Tony Shea]

As someone already pointed out, a huge factor in how a rabbet plane cuts is in how you install the blade. The blade edge that reaches into the corner of the rabbet needs to be just slightly proud of the side of the plane. Otherwise your rabbet is going to end up getting smaller and smaller the deeper it gets. This does not seem like it would be the case but really is important.

When I use a rabbet plane I treat it like a plow or moulding plane as long as the depth stop is working correctly. I always start my strokes on the last few inches of the rabbet and gradually work longer with each new pass. This creates a trough for the plane to follow for full length passes.

Here's the Schwarz using a rabbet plane. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUTN5nzH-FE