Straightening irons and chisels

[Jon Agnew]

Ok, fellas. I'm at a loss here and am turning to you guys for some tips.

I'm not a neader purist (bandsaw, drill press), but when it comes to sharpening, there's not a plug to be found in my shop. I use DMT stones and occasionally sandpaper glued to some MDF for my course griding. I also use the MKII for my honing guide. Here's the problem. When I sharpen chisels and irons, I inadvertently add a subtle skew to my blades. At first, it was so subtle that I was able to compensate with lateral adjustments on the planes. However, the more I have sharpened, the more severe the skew has become. Last weekend, I finally bit the bullet and set about regrinding every cutting tool that I have. I was extremely careful to apply even clamping pressure in the MKII. The skew still got worse. So I thought I was putting uneven pressure on the blades with my fingers, so I essentially stopped putting ANY pressure at all...just enough to hold the bevel against the stones. Still the skew got worse. I tried everything I could think of for hours to no avail. In fact, not only did the skew get worse, but on the wider blades (3/4" chisel - plane irons) the skew gave way to a completely unstraight edge. It's borderline wavy. Obviously, this is unacceptable.

Has anyone had a similar experience? Any thoughts on what I might be doing wrong? Tips to correct it? I don't have a grinder (and don't have the money to buy a reliable one) to regrind. I am actually considering filing the edges straight and true then slowly regrinding on sandpaper. Think that will work? Better techniques? HELP! :confused:

[Mark Dorman]

It could be the MKII. Mine skews when I turn it to the micro bevel position. Try changing the roller setting then give it a few strokes and see if changes the skew.

[Jim Koepke]

Jon,

Hopefully someone with more knowledge about this will chime in. (my only blade holder for hand sharpening is a homemade adaptation.) There has been some postings about the MKII having a problem with the clamping not always holding the work square.

There are many things that can influence the way a blade takes and edge.

If your blades are of good hardness a file will not be much help.

jtk

[Jon Agnew]

Didn't even think about the file not working with the hardened steel.

Beyond this problem, I'm not thrilled with the MKII. Considering the tight tolerances involved in getting a sharp edge, many of the MKII components seem to have a too much play.

EDIT: After considering the hardened steel vs file problem, I am fairly convinced that a file will still cut. I used it to round over the corners on the blade with no problems. Straightening the edge of the blade will definitely require removing a lot more material, but it would seem that it's still a small enough amount of metal to be removed that the file shouldn't have too much trouble with it....maybe.

[Paul McGaha]

Jon,

You might try the eclipse jig and make one of the angle setting jigs that Lie-Nielsen suggests. It's easy to use, holds the irons and chisels well, very repeatable.

PHM

http://www.lie-nielsen.com/catalog.php?sku=jig (http://www.lie-nielsen.com/catalog.php?sku=jig)

http://www.lie-nielsen.com/pdf/AngleSettingJig.pdf

[Jon Agnew]

This is the first time I've seen that angle setting jig. Very nice!

I actually have two eclipse jigs floating around my shop somewhere. Used them before the MKII. I actually had a problem with the roller getting ground along with the blades. Might need to give it another shot though.

[Robert G Brown]

This may apply to you.

I have/had the same problem with the MKII. When the blade is tighten to the jig, both sides have to be equally tight. I have found it to be very sensitive to being unevenly tightened. Plus I double check with a square.

I do not use the MKII for chisels. I found something else that works better. I am happy with the MKII for sharpening cutters even though I have to be more careful (slower) attaching the cutter.

[Mike Cogswell]

I've had two problems with the MKII, one mine and one a tool issue.

My problem, which was most evident with chisels, was failing to tighten the screws exactly even. Even a little off would lead to a skew.

The tool problem was with the roller. When changing to a micro bevel one end would move slightly more than the other, skewing the micro bevel compared to the main bevel. Lee Valley promptly replaced the roller and that was the end of that problem.

I still have to be very careful about keeping the screws evenly tightened, both in terms of number of turns and in terms of equal pressure.

If you have a problem with the skew changing while honing, I don't see how that could happen unless the chisel is shifting position slightly because it isn't clamped tight enough. It take a lot of pressure on the screws to clamp a narrow chisel securely.

(I also have a few chisels where their sides are not exactly parallel. Lining one side up with the MKII guide automatically creates a skew. I just make a light pass on a fine stone and then tap the chisel handle on the table to adjust it, repeat until the new bevel is square then hone away.)

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Obviously, you had a problem to begin with, because you had to use the lateral adjuster in your planes to compensate, but now that you've ground things square, be certain that you're checking square with a square of some sort, and not just relying on the hollow grind polishing evenly. I assume you're doing this, but I only mention it because once I had what I thought was a square grind (and wasn't) and was confused as it appeared to the eye that I was honing with my MKII out-of-square. In reality, I was bringing it back into square with the MKII.

As others have said, how you tighten things down (particularly with narrower things like chisels) can make a big difference in how the MKII behaves - if you crank down one knob, then tighten the other knob, it can lead to askew results. I try and get them each just barely snug, then alternate back and forth between the two knobs as I crank them tight.

With narrower things like chisels, make sure that the blades are centered well.

Also worth checking is that the roller part and the holder part are tightened well and centered properly. (I mean how the "top" and "bottom" can be adjusted to use different "color" settings of ranges of angles) This usually takes care of itself in tightening, but worth making sure it's secure and not funky.

The other thing I've had an issue with is the roller assembly - because I used mine for years taken very poor care of it, eventually, enough grit made it's way into the roller that the whole assembly was pretty loose with a lot of play. This was nice because I could get a nice camber by using pressure, but it made repeatable accurate results a bit difficult. Replacing the roller assembly made my MKII play a lot nicer.

The other issue I have worth mentioning is that some of my chisels, besides not being parallel side to side like Mike mentions, is that a couple of mine the tops and bottoms (the surfaces being pinched by the MKII) aren't quite parallel - this makes things a little funny, as well.

[Jim Matthews]

I grind and hone by hand.

I have exactly the same problem. I've taken to marking the bevel with a sharpie, to gauge my progress.
If I wait until I get to the strop, it's too late.

Being right handed, it's the left side of the blade that is leading on the stone, and that's the "shortened" side.
It's genuinely difficult to keep it square, even though I know it happens.

I'm not sure how much of a skew is a problem.

[don wilwol]

You might try giving Lee Valley a call.

[Sam Stephens]

on a plane iron, a little skew is ok b/c you can correct w/ the lateral adjustment, but if it's exaggerated over time w/ each sharpening, then you'll reach a point where you can longer set the blade straight via this adjustment. BTDT. If you've reached this point, then re-grind straight (certainly someone nearby can help?). If a grinder's not available, a mill file ought to work. Same goes for chisels, a little skew is ok. You should be able to rectify chisels on an extra coarse DMT in a few minutes. I had similar skewing problems w/ a Worksharp (different cause, but same result) and decided to switch to free hand. I've never looked back. I find it relatively easy to avoid (overly) skewing my chisels and planes by changing my hand pressure.

[Sam Stephens]

This is the first time I've seen that angle setting jig. Very nice!

I actually have two eclipse jigs floating around my shop somewhere. Used them before the MKII. I actually had a problem with the roller getting ground along with the blades. Might need to give it another shot though.

Do you ride the jig on the stone? or a separate flat surface co-planar w/ the stone?

[Kees Heiden]

The only "problem" I have with my eclips copy, is the roller gets stuck after a while. Which means it doesn't roll anymore. When that happens you grind a flat in the roller rather quickly. So I use a drop of oil in the roller from time to time to keep it rolling.

I sold my Veritas MK2 rather quickly because I had too many issues with it.

And nowadays I mostly sharpen freehand which is much easier in fact and avoids all these kinds of troubles.

[Bruce Haugen]

As others have said, how you tighten things down (particularly with narrower things like chisels) can make a big difference in how the MKII behaves - if you crank down one knob, then tighten the other knob, it can lead to askew results. I try and get them each just barely snug, then alternate back and forth between the two knobs as I crank them tight.

I think this is the most important point in using the MK II jig. It took a bit before I learned this myself, and I haven't had much problem since then.

[Russell Sansom]

As mentioned, mark a square line on the back with a sharpie. If you're very careful, you can draw it a uniform width and very close to the edge. This is the only way I know of to gain the feedback you need about squareness during grinding and sharpening. I'm an experienced and confident sharpener and I still do it.
A file should not work unless your tools have been softened. The file would be destroyed in short order. If the steel file were hard enough to sharpen hardened steel it would be too brittle. This is why people use diamond plates, ceramic wheels, and ceramic stones instead of hardened steel.

If you're strapped for dough, you might give serious consideration to a hand grinder. You can glance at the Krenov books ( can't remember which one ) where he demonstrates the hand-grinder approach in depth. Honing a hollow-ground blade by hand can be a lot quicker and easier than honing a flat bevel with a guide.

[Bob Deroeck]

I have the original Veritas honing guide and gave up using it because the blades skews within the guide as you use it. The attachment method of the tool to the guide is just not adequate for holding the tool 90 degrees to the guide body. I considered buying an MKII and posted a query to SMC members on whether the new model solved the problem. The response was essentially "not really".

I solved the problem by buying a Lee Valley $10 side-clamping guide (Eclipse clone) for sharpening plane blades and wider chisels and a Richard Kell side clamping guide for narrow chisels. The Kell guide is expensive (about $60), but is high quality and keeps even 1/8" chisels spot on 90 degrees to the guide. End of problem.

Bob

[mike holden]

I have one chisel that does this, because the top and bottom surfaces are not quite parallel. So, one side gets more pressure and grinds away faster, causing a skew. All my other chisels work fine.
Mike

[Bruce Haugen]

I use my MKII with plane blades, not chisels. Chisels have a large enough bevel that they register just fine on the stone without any jig. Actually, I've never used a jig with a chisel, even my little bitty 1/8" ones.