Anyone here own a SCM T-160 shaper?

[Jeff Duncan]

Probably a long shot but figure I'll at least put it out there.

I can't find much help online except for a tough to read parts list and I'm trying to figure out a couple things. Mostly in relation to the gear box and spindle assembly. For instance, is the oil solely for the lift gears, or is it an oil lubricated bearing setup? What type of oil does it use? Probably a handful more question as I start to go over the machine.

thanks in advance,
Jeff

[joe milana]

Is that a stealth gloat there? I had my eye on one once, but like you,I couldn't find much info on the machine. Good luck!

[David Kumm]

You can download manuals from www.partspronto.com (http://www.partspronto.com) Dave

[Jeff Duncan]

Joe, could be a gloat....but not until I get her up and running and see what I'm working with;) At first evaluation I think this thing is, well....a beast! Spindle is within .001 and everything moves as it should manually. Got to get her cleaned and wired up and see. I may have to replace some of the wiring up to the motor as it seems pretty brittle....which is surprising unless it's older than I suspect:confused:

David, thanks but all they have are parts manuals for the T-160, and pretty poor quality versions at that:( I printed what they had yesterday and got some info, but some stuff still isn't quite clicking. It was hinted to me that that's probably due to the age, though I thought these were early 80's machines? What I need is some basic information on machine specific maintenance and to have a handful of questions mostly about the quill/gearbox assembly answered.

JeffD

[David Kumm]

Jeff, that is a beast! I googled a couple for sale- might be old or out of date. I'd contact Global Machinery to see if the one they have listed has a manual you could copy. I'd also call Carissa Stanford at Parts Pronto. She is magic at finding stuff for old machines. I've been told parts can't be had and she seems to find them. Worth a try. Good luck, when running it should be great. Dave

[Jeff Duncan]

Thanks Dave, this machine was on my short list for tilting shapers along with the Martin T-23 and the Bauerle. Until now all three well out of my budget having upgraded my other shapers over the last couple years. Fortunately for me this one came up locally at a fraction of what I've seen the others sell for:D

I have a call into SCM/Parts Pronto and am waiting to hear back....hopefully:o Problem is the machine is likely older than I had first thought. The parts list I downloaded is dated 81' and the area I'm looking at seems different....ie older. I have her running and she seems OK, at least nothing obvious that needs attention mechanically. I still think I may need to replace the wires to the motor as they're starting to crack and that just doesn't seem safe. So right now as it stands they're trying to find someone in the factory that may know the older machines. If that fails they said they'll put a call in to Italy. I'm not overly optimistic...but keeping my fingers crossed;)

There's also a funny problem I'm going to have to dig into. When you press the off switch it kills the power as it should. However if I push the off button when the machine is already off it briefly powers up:confused: The off switch is labeled as a brake also so there may be some electronic component malfunctioning as there does not seem to be any braking going on. I'll post another thread for that specific problem as I get closer to working on it. Goofy little electrical problem I'm hoping I can resolve myself:o

Lastly for now, this thing really is a beast....makes the Martin almost seem small in comparison:eek: It has the original fence in good shape, and all the table rings! It's running an 8 hp motor and is just one heavy chunk of cast iron with a spindle and motor attached to it. If everything else works out OK like it seems so far, the most work it will need is electrical and paint. For some reason almost all the paint on it is flaking off? My biggest worry with the tilting machines was how accurate the tilt mechanism would be. I'd guess the trunnions on this thing would weigh more than my entire 12" Wadkin Table saw. It takes several turns of the wheel to move it one degree! I'm not worried anymore:)

Jeff

[David Kumm]

Jeff, I've lusted over the Bauerle fro months but I've got more shapers than room. Can you see a brake on the motor or somewhere else? Keep me up to date. Dave

[Chris Padilla]

No pics...you don't have one. ;)

[Jeff Duncan]

Sorry for the delay guys....had an unscheduled day off yesterday:( Kind of surreal having your whole town in a daytime curfew and watching everything on TV....but at least there was a good end result.

Dave, I'm impressed. You mean you could actually turn down an opportunity for a silly reason like not having place to put it? If I was that smart I'd actually be able to move in my shop:eek: No, I have an addiction and as much as I keep telling myself I don't "need" any more....there are certain machines I just can't say no to:o

Anyway I gave the machine a fairly good look over on Thursday and I can't find anything that looks like an electronic brake to me. There's nothing attached to the motor, and nothing on the electronic panel that stands out. I really know nothing about electronic brakes though, so I could be staring right at it and probably not recognize it!

So since Chris asked nicely....here's the gratuitous pics:)

Front view...
http://i762.photobucket.com/albums/xx268/JDWoodworking/T-160Front.jpg (http://s762.photobucket.com/user/JDWoodworking/media/T-160Front.jpg.html)
Controls...
http://i762.photobucket.com/albums/xx268/JDWoodworking/T-160Controls.jpg (http://s762.photobucket.com/user/JDWoodworking/media/T-160Controls.jpg.html)
Pic showing the motor, gearbox, and you can see how the casting for the gear box also houses the quill....
http://i762.photobucket.com/albums/xx268/JDWoodworking/T160Quill.jpg (http://s762.photobucket.com/user/JDWoodworking/media/T160Quill.jpg.html)
Pic of the electronic panel
http://i762.photobucket.com/albums/xx268/JDWoodworking/T-160Electronics.jpg (http://s762.photobucket.com/user/JDWoodworking/media/T-160Electronics.jpg.html)

I'm still working out the whole gearbox/quill situation. It's different than any of the shapers I've ever used. On this machine the motor and the pulleys are fixed to the trunnion and the quill moves vertically independent of them....sort of like a drill press I guess? Bearings seem OK but if they do end up needing to be replaced it's going to be an interesting project:(

JeffD

[Erik Loza]

Interesting, don't recognize any of the innards. Especially the oil reservoir-part. You gonna' resto the outside and repaint it? Thanks for sharing.

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[David Kumm]

Jeff, had it not been tax season i might have succumbed to the Bauerle. I think the T160 should be a great find though. Martin uses a similar system in their older shapers with the oil directly cooling the bearings. Generally if oil is kept in supply the bearings last forever so you may be golden. If you feel the need to swap bearings, my 299 needs new ones so feel free. Dave

[J.R. Rutter]

The electronic brakes that I have seen on SCM motors have been in between the motor cooling fan and the actual motor. My T120K had a funky brake that worked sometimes and not others. I think that there are wear components and/or a finicky air gap adjustment. I no longer have the machine or manuals, so I don't remember the specifics, sorry. Looks like a great find!

[Jeff Duncan]

Erik, my gut feeling is this may be one of the first run of T-160's before they ditched the gear box system? I have no evidence of that except that in all the machine interior pics I've found so far none have the same gearbox setup mine has. I'm seriously thinking about a paint job as it's in such poor shape. I'm not usually the restore type, I'm more of the blow off the dust, wire it up and run it and see if anything needs fixing;)

David, my Martin has the oiled bearing system and it really is a great setup! Your right that In theory as long as you maintain them and don't do anything too stupid they should last a lifetime! The problem is finding out exactly whats going on in the SCM without dismantling. I'm going to ignore that part of it for now as it sounds good. I am going to spend some time double checking the wiring and then get her chomping some wood:D

JR, do you remember if there was a separate cable going to the motor for the brake? From a quick visual there's only the one power cable going to the motor currently. I'm going to have to do some more in depth digging on that particular aspect of the machine. It may not have a brake at all, though it seems unusual for this caliber machine not to have one? My only evidence is that someone labeled the off switch as a off and brake. Having now worked with machines that do have brakes, I find I greatly prefer to have them now;)

thanks guys,
JeffD

[J.R. Rutter]

JR, do you remember if there was a separate cable going to the motor for the brake? From a quick visual there's only the one power cable going to the motor currently. I'm going to have to do some more in depth digging on that particular aspect of the machine. It may not have a brake at all, though it seems unusual for this caliber machine not to have one? My only evidence is that someone labeled the off switch as a off and brake. Having now worked with machines that do have brakes, I find I greatly prefer to have them now;)

thanks guys,
JeffD

I honestly don't remember. I don't think it had a discrete set of wires, though.

[Peter Quinn]

Wow. Are you sure that isn't meant for balancing truck tires? The hole in the table is big enough! Nice find, I have no information. Love the look of the old industrial. Sure thats not late 60's to mid 70's? Love to read a good written history of the SCM brands. Those hand wheels are interesting, I have very nearly the exact same hand wheels on my Paolini, right down to the orange paint on the inside. Gets me wondering if there was some "hand wheel" company in Italy at that time. Mine is early to mid 80's, so maybe the time line fits? I'm no restore guy either, rather be making saw dust than masking off parts, but a wire brush and a few rattle cans could do wonders for the visual there. Looks like a great score. Glad your things are settling don't there in bean town.

[Jeff Duncan]

Peter, the table holes on some of these machines are exceptionally large b/c they were also designed to add tenoning hoods and sliders to them. In which case the outer ring does not come out, but actually rotates within the table. The fence is attached to the outer ring allowing you to rotate it 90 degrees in order to use the sliding table which would be located on the side of the machine. It's a pretty cool feature, unfortunately those sliders seem to be pretty rare on this side of the pond.

As for the history I found they introduced the T-160 in 68' so it could be from that time period? I also know there was a lot of intermingling of Italian manufacturers back in the day. My EMA jointer somehow turned into or was bought out by Casadei. Casadei I think may even be under SCM now,(?), and many of these machines look darn near identical cept' for some small features. And of course the machines of this period all had the same vomit green paint jobs. I have machines from Martin, SCM, EMA, Bini and even my LinMac, (Asian), shaper all have the same color....or at least close enough you could use the same paint to touch all of them up;) Hmmm, maybe a nice fire engine red paint job:eek:

I spent a little time pulling the control panel today and it will need a re-wire. It's funny, the smaller gauge wires for the elevation motor and relay for the on/off are fine. The main power wires look like their 100 years old! They're literally crumbling apart. So she's going to sit until I have a day to replace all the main wires. I'm glad I checked as they're in such poor condition something bad surely would have happened:(


We're definitely settling back into things now, yesterday was a loooong day though!
JeffD

[Peter Quinn]

And of course the machines of this period all had the same vomit green paint jobs. I have machines from Martin, SCM, EMA, Bini and even my LinMac, (Asian), shaper all have the same color....or at least close enough you could use the same paint to touch all of them up;) Hmmm, maybe a nice fire engine red paint job:eek: JeffD


LOL...I have a sneaking suspicion that was the color of the tanks in WWII, took them 30+ years to use it up and move on to other colors. With a name like "L'Invincible" a fire engine red lacquer would look awesome IMO, maybe some flames or lightning bolt details too, something more suggestive of invincibility. Of course with the wiring in the condition it is perhaps the flame decals are best avoided?

[Larry Edgerton]

Very nice Jeff. One more thing to be jealous about.;)

[Jeff Duncan]

Just a couple more pics of what seems like pretty crappy wiring....
http://i762.photobucket.com/albums/xx268/JDWoodworking/t-160drum2.jpg (http://s762.photobucket.com/user/JDWoodworking/media/t-160drum2.jpg.html)
maybe this was left over from WWII tanks as well? Did Schindler's factory also produce wiring:eek:
http://i762.photobucket.com/albums/xx268/JDWoodworking/t-160drumswitch.jpg (http://s762.photobucket.com/user/JDWoodworking/media/t-160drumswitch.jpg.html)
The wiring in the box looks pretty much the same. I could probably cheat and strip it back in the control panel to expose fresh wire, there's just not enough slack in the box though....so it's going to have to go!

Larry, don't be jealous....I have a problem:o Although I've managed to equip my shop pretty well over the last decade through patience and constantly looking, it's close to breaking point as I have no more room to put it. I'm still waiting to go through with a small shop expansion which will help, but until I can push that through I've barley enough space to turn around:( I just have this issue where I get so frustrated with tools that are too slow or lightweight for what I want to do, I can't help but keep trying to improve them.

JeffD

[Peter Quinn]

Well, there is nothing light weight about a shaper whose hood rotates like a tank turret! That's pretty cool, but in my mind it serves to reenforce my impression that these early Italian wood working machines were made with surplus tank parts! I used to collect Japanese kitchen knives, many fine sword makers were forced to stop producing traditional samarai swords post WWII, so they turned to cutlery as a way to make a living using their skills and technology. I have a sneaky suspicion a similar thing has happened here. Perhaps you should be looking for old tank operators manuals? What a great mobile base that would make......half tracks on one side......small dc motor to power the tracks.....ultimate mobility package!

[joe milana]

I hope the shaper is coming along nicely. When you finish, there's a Martin slider on ebay with your name all over it...:D

[J.R. Rutter]

I've seen the cracked wire insulation on vintage electronics. What a lot of people do on audio transformers is put heat shrink tubing over the exposed ends that have cracked over time due to heat and flexing. Just a thought...

[Jeff Duncan]

Wow Joe how'd you know? It's like you were reading my mind:eek:

JR, that's not a bad idea at all! I used to use that stuff in my younger days when I played with car stereos. It never even occurred to me I could use it here, but that may save me a bit of cash and Lot of time!

Right now I'm in the process of getting a kitchen out the door, bidding several projects, and hiring someone, so no time for the shaper. Hopefully I'll get some time end of May to take care of the wiring and find her a home;)

thanks,
JeffD

[Jeff Duncan]

Finally got around to doing some work on "the beast" this past month and she's coming along nicely. Ran into a few hiccups along the way, but she's now sporting new wiring, new paint, fresh oil, and while not new, cleaned up and replaced bearings. I think SCM may want to consider a new color for their machinery….what do you think:rolleyes:
http://i762.photobucket.com/albums/xx268/JDWoodworking/IMG_3151.jpg (http://s762.photobucket.com/user/JDWoodworking/media/IMG_3151.jpg.html)

That's "Chili Pepper Red" which while it may not be for everyone, I feel it will add a little something to my mostly drab green shop! Still have a handful of things to finish her up, but I sent some wood through yesterday and she leaves as good a finish as one could want:D

JeffD

[Erik Loza]

Wowwwwwwwwwwww.....

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[Patrick McCarthy]

I LIKE it. Hot

[Larry Edgerton]

Love it! Really, I love it!

I have a few machines that I bought new that are due for a freshening as they are pushing thirty years old and have decided to get away from the industrial colors as well. I am thinking old hot rod themes, flames, scallops, etc. I want my new shop to be a great place to hang out as well as make a living. When I had my shop in the industrial district it was all so dreary I hated it. New shop is in the woods....

I have been trying to decide if I should buy an old iron shaper or a new SCM, and yours puts a couple of points in the old catagory. Kinda want a programmable shaper, but still up in the air about dependability.

I'm going to look at old iron now..........

Larry

[J.R. Rutter]

Looks great, Jeff!

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Red dresses always get looks, that ones nice!

[jack forsberg]

very smart looking machine Jeff

[Peter Quinn]

Wow.....L'Invincible is incredible! I'm loving that look. HOT!

[Patrick McCarthy]

very smart looking machine Jeff

That is high praise;if you have seen any of Jack's machines, you know that he is not easily impressed!

[Jeff Duncan]

Wow, thanks guys. I wasn't sure how may purists were lurking around who may object to a bit of color, but hey, I like it! This was my first paint restoration and though it was a lot of work....it was a bit of fun as well. I'm not delusional enough to think its anywhere near the quality work that Jack does, but she's now mechanically sound and, well.....easier to look at! I'm already thinking I may want to do a couple PM 1150's next.....saw another great color while picking out the red.

thanks,
Jeff

[Jeff Duncan]

Love it! Really, I love it!

I have a few machines that I bought new that are due for a freshening as they are pushing thirty years old and have decided to get away from the industrial colors as well. I am thinking old hot rod themes, flames, scallops, etc. I want my new shop to be a great place to hang out as well as make a living. When I had my shop in the industrial district it was all so dreary I hated it. New shop is in the woods....

I have been trying to decide if I should buy an old iron shaper or a new SCM, and yours puts a couple of points in the old catagory. Kinda want a programmable shaper, but still up in the air about dependability.

I'm going to look at old iron now..........

Larry

I love the concept of painting equipment with "different" colors. The auto paints are not cheap, but I figured for what I paid for the machine....what the heck!

My feeling is the new machines are great if you have the work to keep them busy. The weak point IMHO is the controls as if that stuff starts to go the bill can get high quickly! I know of a shop near me that had a top of the line tilting Martin all CNC controlled. Last time I was by it had been sitting for about 2 years b/c of some faulty electronic parts! He was slow at the time so couldn't invest in fixing it.

I love old iron b/c with reasonable care it's darn near indestructible and it fits very nicely into my budget! It's not for everyone but I enjoy a little tinkering.

Jeff

[Erik Loza]

I had this fantasy at one point to take one of our bandsaws and powder-coat the whole chassis in high-lustre metallic silver. Not chrome-level shiny, but the look of polished metal. It would look like the Terminator robot.

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[Mel Fulks]

I like it. But ,hey, I'm just glad to see one of those things without the lights hanging down like gouged out eye balls! I hope it serves you well!

[Justin Ludwig]

I dig it. It screams, "nom nom nom, WOOOOOD, nom nom nom"!

It's definitely an attention getter for anyone that walks in your shop.

Well done.

[mreza Salav]

I agree, it looks HOT!
Those hand wheels look bigger than a dinner plate.

[Pat Houle]

That's "Chili Pepper Red"

Love the color!!!! What manufacturer & code is that paint???

[Jeff Duncan]

It's OMNI AU single stage paint. The manufacturer is Chrystler and the brand code is 5361….Chile Pepper Red Pearlcoat. I used a black epoxy primer coat to keep it from getting too light. I have to say the stuff sprayed really nicely. There are some spots where I didn't get quite enough on the body of the machine, mostly on the back.….but hard to notice in a shop. Parts that were easier to spray, like the fence and doors the color really pops! Not cheap stuff, but then again if I had to buy enough spray bombs to paint all the sq. footage on this thing it may have cost me more?

The hand wheels are ridiculous….they're big chunks of either steel or cast iron! Probably weight at least 10 pounds a piece. Between how well the machine is engineered and the weight of the quill you can spin the hand wheel to lower the quill and it will just keep going on it's own:)

JeffD

[Jeff Duncan]

OK, I got the doors back on and ran my first project through over the last week.
http://i762.photobucket.com/albums/xx268/JDWoodworking/IMG_3158.jpg (http://s762.photobucket.com/user/JDWoodworking/media/IMG_3158.jpg.html)
http://i762.photobucket.com/albums/xx268/JDWoodworking/IMG_3163.jpg (http://s762.photobucket.com/user/JDWoodworking/media/IMG_3163.jpg.html)

http://i762.photobucket.com/albums/xx268/JDWoodworking/IMG_3168.jpg (http://s762.photobucket.com/user/JDWoodworking/media/IMG_3168.jpg.html)

She runs great and though it was only a small project with the Euro head….cut quite nicely:>)

A couple details for those interested and for anyone else who comes along and like me cannot find much info….
This is one of the earliest, (actually probably the first), version of the T-160 and likely dates to 1968. It has an integral oil pump which delivers oil to the open bearings which are a matched set of 7212's….same size as the Martin T-21 top bearing, though the T-21 uses a smaller bottom bearing. The motor does not rise and fall with the quill but instead the spindle is driven by a splined shaft not unlike in a drill press. It has mechanical raise/lower as well as tilt. If you lightly spin the hand wheel to lower the spindle it will keep going on it's own…..very smooth:D

The original wiring utilized 2 contacts wired reverse of each other. By pressing in and holding the stop button you momentarily power the motor in the opposite direction acting as a brake. I could not get this to work on my machine but have confirmed my suspicions when I received an original copy of the manual and wiring diagrams. The original motor is an 8hp beast which is wired as a Delta configuration, apparently making it not friendly to adding a Short Stop brake:(

The fence is like the rest of the machine….beefy. its well made for the most part but it's here where you really see why the Martin is a step above. It has a more rudimentary system for adjusting the fence faces in and out, though it works fine. it does not however have the split fence design allowing one to micro adjust either the whole fence in and out or just the out-feed half. If you've used this type of fence you understand how incredibly useful a feature it is. I also think the lockdowns are a bit strange. The locks for the fence faces are long and beefy with more leverage than one would ever need. While the locks for the fence itself are smaller and harder to apply leverage. I also only have one of the originals so will likely replace them both with something more like what the Martin uses. The faces also do not move nearly as smoothly as the Martin fence. I'm going to spend some more time on that ini the future to see if I can improve them.

Lastly capacity wise it's robust as well. The largest opening in the table is about 16" and you can fit 7-1/4" under the nut. She'll run from just under 3k to 10,000 rpm's. The machine itself is about 2000 lbs of mostly cast iron and you can feel it when she runs:D

thanks for looking!
JeffD

[Brian Backner]

Hi Jeff,

I go to a lot of auctions around eastern Mass and have only ever seen one sample of the 160 "L-Invincible" for sale - it was at a window/door manufacturer out near Worcester last year. My memory may be playing tricks on me, but I'd swear that's the same machine. If it is, I hope you got all the tooling that went with it - must have been an entire gaylord or two of stuff that were in a pair of cabinets next to it. It also had the largest stock feeder I think I've ever seen mounted on it, but that was a separate auction lot. I thought about bidding on it, especially since it didn't generate too much interest - but it was simply too large. I eventually ended up with the much smaller (though still beefy) T-100.

Anyway, nice score - wherever you got it from - and a very nice rehab.

Cheers,

Brian
Near Gillette

[Mark Bolton]

The sickest part of the machine is the size of the largest table insert. Unreal.

[Jeff Duncan]

Hi Jeff,

I go to a lot of auctions around eastern Mass and have only ever seen one sample of the 160 "L-Invincible" for sale - it was at a window/door manufacturer out near Worcester last year. My memory may be playing tricks on me, but I'd swear that's the same machine.

Cheers,

Brian
Near Gillette

Might look the same, but this was from a different place…..it came from a large shop down in Fall River where it had been mothballed for a while after a new Martin replaced it:)

thanks,
JeffD

[STEVEN MICHENER]

Hi Jeff, I know this is an old thread, but I have a question about a newer version of this machine. I believe it’s from the 80’s. Anyway, I tore it down to replace the bearings and I can’t find replacements. It has a FAG MB-B7211cA-P4 and a FAG YB-B7206cA-P4. Any chance you know what bearings you used, or any bearing advice for a novice? Thanks.