HELP!!! Which hinges? Cabinet door very close to drawers.

[Lester Sak]

Hi all,

Building my first ever cabinet. It's actually going to be a cart on wheels for my daughter to store all of her baking supplies. The problem I'm having is that I know very little about how to select the proper hinges. I've built this with a face frame, but I didn't account for the spacing I'd need for the hinges/door swing when I designed it.

The cabinet will have 2 raised panel doors on the left section and 4 drawers and a 3rd small door below those on the right. The stile separating the left and right sections is only 1.25" wide and the doors are 25/32" thick.

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After lying the cabinet on it's back and laying the doors and drawer faces on top, I realized that the right cabinet door will hit the drawers and small door when opened. The doors have a 1/2" overhang on each side and if I mount the drawer faces as far to the right as a I can (where it will still hide the drawer opening on the left), the gap between the right edge of the right door and the drawer faces is only about 20/32".

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Did I really screw this up, or is there a hinge I can use that will prevent the door from hitting the drawers?

Thanks!
Les

[Mike Heidrick]

You could make one new door and open to the left.
Kreg in a new stile effectively widening it and make two new doors

[Lester Sak]

You could make one new door and open to the left.

The reason for the 2 doors is that where the cart will be used clearance for opening a single door would be tight.


Kreg in a new stile effectively widening it and make two new doors

I'll do this if I have to, but was hoping that there was a type of hinge that would work for this.
The Compact Blumotion 39C hinge requires a 7/32" reveal. Is the space between the edge of my door and the drawers the reveal they're referring to? If so, I think it would work as that space is 20/32". I've never dealt with hinges before so all of this is new to me.

[Don Jarvie]

Look into Blum hinges. They make different sizes according to the amount of overlap you want.

[Lester Sak]

Thanks Don, that's what I was looking into. I guess I just don't understand that way these hinges will work.

With 1/2" overlap, I have a 20/32" space between the edge of the door and the drawers. What I don't understand is since the door is 25/32" thick, if I swing it in arc 90 degrees as though it was connected with hinges, the 25/32" door is too thick to fit between the 20/32" space. Do the hinges have a way to compensate for that?

[David L Morse]

Thanks Don, that's what I was looking into. I guess I just don't understand that way these hinges will work.

With 1/2" overlap, I have a 20/32" space between the edge of the door and the drawers. What I don't understand is since the door is 25/32" thick, if I swing it in arc 90 degrees as though it was connected with hinges, the 25/32" door is too thick to fit between the 20/32" space. Do the hinges have a way to compensate for that?
Yes, the pivot point is inside the door, that's why they're recessed into the door.

Also, with your 1/2" overlap you'll need to look at the 38N or 39N instead of the 39C.

[Lester Sak]

Yes, the pivot point is inside the door, that's why they're recessed into the door.

Also, with your 1/2" overlap you'll need to look at the 38N or 39N instead of the 39C.

Thanks David, sounds like what I've built will work with the proper hinge. Much appreciated!

[mreza Salav]

You don't need a lot of gap between the doors and the drawers with blum hinges (you can get by with as little as 1/8" or so).
In fact, with a proper hing the door (when open) will not be anymore (almost) to the right than when it is closed.

[Jerry Miner]

I think it's always a good idea to plan for the hardware during the design phase, rather than wait until after construction, but that's 20/20 hindsight now.

The Blum 38N will work fine here (39C requires 1" minimum overlay)---but you might also consider the 120 degree straight-arm hinge (71t5550) (I use these all the time for kitchen and bath cabinets):

Blum hinge (http://www.cabinetparts.com/media/pdf/auto/120-clip-top.pdf) (click on "continue to pdf")---with a 3mm mounting plate, the overlay is 1/2" and the reveal (space required between doors, or between door edge and other obstruction) is only 2mm (less than 1/8").

You can get mounting plates that mount to the face frame, or plates that mount to the panel side.

BTW--cabinet looks great. I'm sure your daughter will love it!!

[Lester Sak]

I think it's always a good idea to plan for the hardware during the design phase, rather than wait until after construction, but that's 20/20 hindsight now.

Yup, I can see that now. I've never done this before and tried researching every step of the way and up to this point things have worked out well. This was my first time making frame and panel doors and drawers with hand-cut dovetails, but I took my time and was able to do it. But I had no idea the hardware was such a consideration. Live and learn :)


The Blum 38N will work fine here (39C requires 1" minimum overlay)---but you might also consider the 120 degree straight-arm hinge (71t5550) (I use these all the time for kitchen and bath cabinets):

Blum hinge (http://www.cabinetparts.com/media/pdf/auto/120-clip-top.pdf) (click on "continue to pdf")---with a 3mm mounting plate, the overlay is 1/2" and the reveal (space required between doors, or between door edge and other obstruction) is only 2mm (less than 1/8").

You can get mounting plates that mount to the face frame, or plates that mount to the panel side.
I found the hinges here: http://www.cabinetparts.com/p/blum-european-cabinet-hinges-BH38N355008, but does the 3mm mounting plate come with it, or is that an optional part?


BTW--cabinet looks great. I'm sure your daughter will love it!!
Thanks, I think she'll get lots of use from it!

[Jay Jolliffe]

Nice job on the cabinet. The compact hinges don't come with the screws to mount them. If you picked the clip top you would have to order the mounting plate too. These are not the same hinges Jerry was talking about. I just use Blum hinges & slides. The compact hinge has it's uses but I never use them because they don't give you all the adjustment the clip top's do.

[Lester Sak]

Ok, so I should get the 38N Clip Top hinge. I found this page listing different plates for that hinge: http://www.cabinetparts.com/g/face-frame-mountimg-plates-blum
Would someone be able to tell me which I need? Man, I had no idea picking the right hinge was rocket science, lol!

Thanks again everyone!

[Jerry Miner]

Not quite. The 38N is not a "clip-top" hinge and doesn't use a separate mounting plate.

You want either the 38N or the "clip-top" hinge---in which case you will need a separate mounting plate.

Here's what I use:

hinge
(http://www.cabinetparts.com/p/blum-european-cabinet-hinges-BH71T5550)3mm mounting plate (175L6030 or 175H6030) (http://www.cabinetparts.com/media/pdf/auto/mounting-plates-clip-hinges.pdf)

You will also need mounting screws (#6 x 5/8), and if you don't already have one, pick up a Pozi-Driv screwdriver---the adjustment screws are Pozi-Driv, which looks like Phillips, but isn't.21

You will also need mounting screws

[Lester Sak]

Looks like it's gonna be a long night, lol. Sorry for all of the questions but I still don't know what I should get.

Jerry, it doesn't seem like the hinge you mentioned would work for a face frame cabinet which was why I was looking at the compact hinge: http://www.cabinetparts.com/p/blum-european-cabinet-hinges-BH38N355008. Am I wrong? If I used a hinge designed for a face frame, do I still need the 3 mm plate?

[David L Morse]

Looks like it's gonna be a long night, lol. Sorry for all of the questions but I still don't know what I should get.

Jerry, it doesn't seem like the hinge you mentioned would work for a face frame cabinet which was why I was looking at the compact hinge: http://www.cabinetparts.com/p/blum-european-cabinet-hinges-BH38N355008. Am I wrong? If I used a hinge designed for a face frame, do I still need the 3 mm plate?
Lester, I suggested the 38N because it is a close cousin to the 39C you were looking at and requires a lot less research to order. However, I, like Jerry, prefer clip-top style and it looks like he already did the research for you. If I were doing it I would use the part numbers he's identified, but it would still be a long night because I would have to read every bit of Blum literature to convince myself that was the optimum solution:).

[Rich Aldrich]

I like the Salice conceiled hinges (Euro style). Spokane Hardware has a good selection and was easier for me to understand what I was buying. There are quite a few different styles so I think you can find something that will work whether you go with Blum, Salice or whoever.

Nice work on the cabinet. I use a rule of thumb for face frames: 2 1/2" wide styles for the side pieces, 3" wide between doors, drawers, 2 1/2 styles between drawers, top and bottom rails 2 to 2 1/4" wide. I like 3/4" overlap and these widths look good. I think I got the dimensions from one of the cabinet books like Jim Tomplin. Anyway it works well for me.

[Lester Sak]

I'll happily order what Jerry suggested, I just want to confirm that will work on a face frame.

I'm just confused because it looks as though the part opposite the cup (which mounts in the door) needs to mount to the cabinet wall and NOT the side/edge of the face frame. Am I missing something? Or does it mount to the cabinet wall and goes around the face frame, "clearing" it all together?

[Lester Sak]

I like the Salice conceiled hinges (Euro style). Spokane Hardware has a good selection and was easier for me to understand what I was buying. There are quite a few different styles so I think you can find something that will work whether you go with Blum, Salice or whoever.

Nice work on the cabinet. I use a rule of thumb for face frames: 2 1/2" wide styles for the side pieces, 3" wide between doors, drawers, 2 1/2 styles between drawers, top and bottom rails 2 to 2 1/4" wide. I like 3/4" overlap and these widths look good. I think I got the dimensions from one of the cabinet books like Jim Tomplin. Anyway it works well for me.

Thanks Rich. I'll definitely consider using the wider stiles for my next project.

[scott vroom]

Lester, you need the Blum 38N model# 38N355C.08 (1/2" o'lay). This hinge will work with a minimum of 9/32" from the door edge to the drawer edge so you've room to spare.

The 38N has a 105 degree open angle....this may create a problem of the door bumping the drawer edge when full opened to 105 degrees. Blum solved this problem with a newer version that not only accepts a restrictor clip that limits the open angle to 89 degrees, but it also has a soft close feature which your daughter may prefer anyway. Unfortunately my Blum catalog is a few years old and doesn't have this new hinge. I strongly encourage you to call Blum technical support at 800 438-6788 and ask for the soft close version of the model I provided above as well as the part number of the restrictor. The Blum folks are extremely knowledgable and will get you dialed in to the right hinge for your application.

Very nice cabinet by the way....she's gonna love it!

Edit: I just located an updated catalog that has the 38N Bluemotion soft close with the optional restriction clip. The 1/2" o'lay hinge part# is 38N355B.08. The optional 86 degree restriction clip is part# 38C315B3.

http://www.cshardware.com/b-38n355b-08.html

http://www.cshardware.com/catalogsearch/result/?q=38c315b3

[David L Morse]

I'll happily order what Jerry suggested, I just want to confirm that will work on a face frame.

I'm just confused because it looks as though the part opposite the cup (which mounts in the door) needs to mount to the cabinet wall and NOT the side/edge of the face frame. Am I missing something? Or does it mount to the cabinet wall and goes around the face frame, "clearing" it all together?
Look at Jerry's second link (http://www.cabinetparts.com/media/pdf/auto/mounting-plates-clip-hinges.pdf) and scroll all the way down to p/n 175L6030. You'll see that it mounts to the inside edge of the face frame. The hinge (Jerry's first link in that post) snaps onto the mounting plate.

[John Piwaron]

Easy - make those two big doors into bi-fold doors. No hinge needed on the drawer side.

The time I did that I used polished cast brass hinges on the fixed side and between the two doors. The hinges are simple 2 x 2 1/2 (or something like that). It worked out perfectly with an even reveal all around.

Another possible choice are no mortise hinges. I've bought those at Rockler.

[Lester Sak]

Lester, you need the Blum 38N model# 38N355C.08 (1/2" o'lay). This hinge will work with a minimum of 9/32" from the door edge to the drawer edge so you've room to spare.

The 38N has a 105 degree open angle....this may create a problem of the door bumping the drawer edge when full opened to 105 degrees. Blum solved this problem with a newer version that not only accepts a restrictor clip that limits the open angle to 89 degrees, but it also has a soft close feature which your daughter may prefer anyway. Unfortunately my Blum catalog is a few years old and doesn't have this new hinge. I strongly encourage you to call Blum technical support at 800 438-6788 and ask for the soft close version of the model I provided above as well as the part number of the restrictor. The Blum folks are extremely knowledgable and will get you dialed in to the right hinge for your application.

Very nice cabinet by the way....she's gonna love it!

Edit: I just located an updated catalog that has the 38N Bluemotion soft close with the optional restriction clip. The 1/2" o'lay hinge part# is 38N355B.08. The optional 86 degree restriction clip is part# 38C315B3.

http://www.cshardware.com/b-38n355b-08.html

http://www.cshardware.com/catalogsearch/result/?q=38c315b3

Scott, thanks for taking the time to post all the information. I do like that hinge as it's made for face frame mounting, but I think I'd be better off with the smaller minimum reveal needed for the hinge Jerry suggested.

This would allow my drawer faces to be installed closer to being centered on the drawers rather than having to mount them as far over to the right to provide a large enough reveal. But I may try these on the smaller door where that's not a concern. This way, I'll have experience with both hinge styles and might be able to answer a question about them myself down the road :)

[Lester Sak]

Look at Jerry's second link (http://www.cabinetparts.com/media/pdf/auto/mounting-plates-clip-hinges.pdf) and scroll all the way down to p/n 175L6030. You'll see that it mounts to the inside edge of the face frame. The hinge (Jerry's first link in that post) snaps onto the mounting plate.

Mark/Jerry,

I think this is my last question... Using the hinge and plate suggested, won't only a portion of the hinge inside the cabinet make contact to the inside edge of the face frame, extending beyond the face frame inside the cabinet? Seems like a part of the hinge would just be "hanging" off the edge. See diagram below:

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[Lester Sak]

Easy - make those two big doors into bi-fold doors. No hinge needed on the drawer side.

The time I did that I used polished cast brass hinges on the fixed side and between the two doors. The hinges are simple 2 x 2 1/2 (or something like that). It worked out perfectly with an even reveal all around.

Another possible choice are no mortise hinges. I've bought those at Rockler.

Thanks for the suggestion John, but I've come this far with this method and want to see it through, lol.

[Jerry Miner]

Mark/Jerry,

I think this is my last question... Using the hinge and plate suggested, won't only a portion of the hinge inside the cabinet make contact to the inside edge of the face frame, extending beyond the face frame inside the cabinet? Seems like a part of the hinge would just be "hanging" off the edge.

Yes, part of the hinge/mounting plate assembly "hangs off the edge" ---you can fill the space with wood if you like (in which case you can add another mounting screw at the back of the plate)---but I usually let them "hang." (there are two screws into the face frame---enough to carry the load without issues IME)

Maybe you should know that the "Euro-style" hinges (like the Blum) were originally designed for the "32mm" system of cabinet-making---a system that doesn't use face-frames---and the hinges were (and are) mounted to plates that are attached to the side panels of the cabinet. But many of us here in the US use a "hybrid" system of cabinet-making that incorporates both "Euro-style" hardware and face-frame construction. The face-frame mounting plates (and the face-frame hinges like the 38N) were designed to accommodate us---it's a sort of compromise between the true "32mm" system and "traditional" face-frame construction.

[Lester Sak]

Yes, part of the hinge/mounting plate assembly "hangs off the edge" ---you can fill the space with wood if you like (in which case you can add another mounting screw at the back of the plate)---but I usually let them "hang." (there are two screws into the face frame---enough to carry the load without issues IME)

Maybe you should know that the "Euro-style" hinges (like the Blum) were originally designed for the "32mm" system of cabinet-making---a system that doesn't use face-frames---and the hinges were (and are) mounted to plates that are attached to the side panels of the cabinet. But many of us here in the US use a "hybrid" system of cabinet-making that incorporates both "Euro-style" hardware and face-frame construction. The face-frame mounting plates (and the face-frame hinges like the 38N) were designed to accommodate us---it's a sort of compromise between the true "32mm" system and "traditional" face-frame construction.

BINGO! That's what I needed to know Jerry. I wanted to make sure I understood what I was looking at. I did know alittle about Euro style hinges before I started this, but wasn't aware people adapted them to face frames. I'll get the exact part numbers you recommended and give them a shot.

Thank you and everyone else who chimed in on this thread for helping me with this!

Les

[scott vroom]

Nice job on the cabinet. The compact hinges don't come with the screws to mount them. If you picked the clip top you would have to order the mounting plate too. These are not the same hinges Jerry was talking about. I just use Blum hinges & slides. The compact hinge has it's uses but I never use them because they don't give you all the adjustment the clip top's do.

Jay, the compact 38N has 3-way adjustment, same as the clip top.

[scott vroom]

Lester, either hinge is a good choice for you. I prefer compact because of their smaller footprint inside the cabinet....less intrusion, but Jerry is correct in that the 120 degree clip top will allow a smaller reveal.

Good luck and post pics of the finished cabinet!



Scott, thanks for taking the time to post all the information. I do like that hinge as it's made for face frame mounting, but I think I'd be better off with the smaller minimum reveal needed for the hinge Jerry suggested.

This would allow my drawer faces to be installed closer to being centered on the drawers rather than having to mount them as far over to the right to provide a large enough reveal. But I may try these on the smaller door where that's not a concern. This way, I'll have experience with both hinge styles and might be able to answer a question about them myself down the road :)

[Lester Sak]

Lester, either hinge is a good choice for you. I prefer compact because of their smaller footprint inside the cabinet....less intrusion, but Jerry is correct in that the 120 degree clip top will allow a smaller reveal.

Good luck and post pics of the finished cabinet!

Thanks again Scott and I will post photos when I'm done.

I just caught another problem that I didn't consider. My stiles are only 1.5" wide, so both of those hinges would be too large. I had placed my order with cabinetparts.com last night, but just called them to explain. I will be trying the Blum mini hinges instead as they only require a 26 mm hole.

I've definitely learned alot from this project and going forward have a better idea of how to design the doors and to consider the hardware I want to use when planning.

[scott vroom]

He, he he....never thought of asking how wide the stiles are! How thick are your stiles? Looks like for the mini clip, a 3/4" thick FF, and a 1/2" o'lay you'd need a 3MM boring distance and a 0 height plate, which would give you a 3MM reveal, well within your tolerance.

[Lester Sak]

The stiles are 3/4" thick. The salesman at cabinetparts told me that the 3mm plates I had ordered (http://www.cabinetparts.com/p/blum-european-cabinet-hinges-BH175H6030) would work with the mini hinges (http://www.cabinetparts.com/p/blum-european-cabinet-hinges-BH71T0550#!prettyPhoto) to give me the 1/2" overlay. Still don't have my head wrapped around how the plates work with the hinges, but I'm sure when I have them in hand it will make sense.

[scott vroom]

The stiles are 3/4" thick. The salesman at cabinetparts told me that the 3mm plates I had ordered (http://www.cabinetparts.com/p/blum-european-cabinet-hinges-BH175H6030) would work with the mini hinges (http://www.cabinetparts.com/p/blum-european-cabinet-hinges-BH71T0550#!prettyPhoto) to give me the 1/2" overlay. Still don't have my head wrapped around how the plates work with the hinges, but I'm sure when I have them in hand it will make sense.

Lester, here's a link to the Blum clip top hinge catalog: http://www.blum.com/us/en/01/20/40/
Scroll to the bottom and click on "brochure" at the bottom left; go to the mini clip on page 31 and look at the tables. Your 1/2" o'lay (13MM) requires a 0 height plate. If you go with the 3 height plate it will give you an o'lay of 15/32, which will cause you to lose some of the center gap between the doors. Multiplied by 2 doors, you will lose 1/16" of gap with the 3 height plate.

Plates are cheap, I'd order the correct (0 height) plate for your project.

[Lester Sak]

Scott, thanks for picking up on that! I was just going on the word of the salesperson and didn't actually check the catalog when I changed my order.
I just emailed them requesting that they send me 0 height plates instead of the 3 mm.

Thanks again!

[Lester Sak]

Lester, here's a link to the Blum clip top hinge catalog: http://www.blum.com/us/en/01/20/40/
Scroll to the bottom and click on "brochure" at the bottom left; go to the mini clip on page 31 and look at the tables. Your 1/2" o'lay (13MM) requires a 0 height plate. If you go with the 3 height plate it will give you an o'lay of 15/32, which will cause you to lose some of the center gap between the doors. Multiplied by 2 doors, you will lose 1/16" of gap with the 3 height plate.

Plates are cheap, I'd order the correct (0 height) plate for your project.

Scott, wanted to let you know that the 0 mm plates worked perfectly, thanks again for taking the time to let me know what I needed (the salesman at cabinetparts did not).

I still need to build the shelves and back, but otherwise the cart is complete.

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