Best 14" To 18" Square???

[Derek Arita]

I'm looking for the most accurate 14 to 18" square I can find to do some crucial alignments. Don't say Ed Bennet at TS-Tablesaw Alignment, because I've tried contacting him with no success. Some have said he is no longer doing business, but they're only guessing. If you have a way of contacting him, please let me know.
At any rate, Ed's 14" and 18" squares claim .0001" overall accuracy and that suits me fine. Are there any other squares that are close to that?

[Harvey Melvin Richards]

I'm looking for the most accurate 14 to 18" square I can find to do some crucial alignments. Don't say Ed Bennet at TS-Tablesaw Alignment, because I've tried contacting him with no success. Some have said he is no longer doing business, but they're only guessing. If you have a way of contacting him, please let me know.
At any rate, Ed's 14" and 18" squares claim .0001" overall accuracy and that suits me fine. Are there any other squares that are close to that?

As a machinist, I would be very surprised if Ed's squares did indeed maintain that degree of accuracy, especially in that size. I bought a device from a boutique tool maker and it had a much less claimed accuracy (.001 in 8", I think) and it was way off. Said device got replaced twice for lack of accuracy before I gave up. I should dig it out and test again it I suppose.

The most accurate squares will be made by Brown & Sharpe, Starrett, and Mitutoyo. There are other brands out there as good, if not better, but they will be more difficult to find.

There is also no device that is "square", just devices that come extremely close to approaching square.

edit: I went to Ed's site and it looks like he is claiming .0001"/ inch of length, which is within the specs of other precision squares.

[Derek Arita]

As a machinist, I would be very surprised if Ed's squares did indeed maintain that degree of accuracy, especially in that size. I bought a device from a boutique tool maker and it had a much less claimed accuracy (.001 in 8", I think) and it was way off. Said device got replaced twice for lack of accuracy before I gave up. I should dig it out and test again it I suppose.

The most accurate squares will be made by Brown & Sharpe, Starrett, and Mitutoyo. There are other brands out there as good, if not better, but they will be more difficult to find.

There is also no device that is "square", just devices that come extremely close to approaching square.

edit: I went to Ed's site and it looks like he is claiming .0001"/ inch of length, which is within the specs of other precision squares.
Thanks! I'll look into those squares.

[Chris Padilla]

I have an 8" Starrett square and and straight-edge. I don't recall the spec for the square but the 36" straight-edge claims no more than 0.2 mil (0.0002 inch) per foot.

[Jim Neeley]

Thanks! I'll look into those squares.

Don't leave home without your Platinum card, they're expensive! :-)

[Michael Dunn]

The most accurate squares will be made by Brown & Sharpe, Starrett, and Mitutoyo.

Be prepared to pay a pretty penny for any Mitutoyo stuff. Great stuff though. I've yet to be able to afford it.

[Derek Arita]

Yeah...I don't mind paying up to $200 for a good 18" square, but any higher than that is too high for me.

[Chris Padilla]

http://www.starrett.com/metrology/metrology-products/precision-measuring-tools/squares/Solid-Squares#itemsPerPage=24&currentPage=1&displayMode=grid&sortBy=none/asc

[Derek Arita]

http://www.starrett.com/metrology/metrology-products/precision-measuring-tools/squares/Solid-Squares#itemsPerPage=24¤tPage=1&displayMode=grid&sortBy=none/asc
Yeah...saw that. I just don't have that kind of money. I wish I did. That's why the TS Aligner Precision Square was such a great buy. I just hope I'm lucky enough to have Ed Bennet get in touch with me.

[Michael Dunn]

Yeah...I don't mind paying up to $200 for a good 18" square, but any higher than that is too high for me.

That reminds me of this lady at my kids' school. She spoke about how her father has a 'problem'... Buying CARS!!! She said, "One week he bought three cars." Not cheap cars either. The likes of Volvo, BMW, and Mercedes.

Seriously?!?

The day I can spend as much on a square or other layout tool as I would on a decent brand new14" BS is the day I... Can't even find a way to finish that sentence.

[Greg R Bradley]

You need to define your use far more precisely than just "an accurate square". What are you trying to do, exactly?

Tossing brand names around does no good because old time standard companies like Starrett make some very good products and some real overpriced crap. Different kinds of squares are made for very different purposes. I think I must have more than 20 and they don't all do the same thing. Some are not even vaguely similar in function.

[Derek Arita]

I want as accurate a square as I can get, to do everything from setting up my machines, to checking stock for squareness. I don't want to spend more than a couple hundred $, if I can help it. I want it to be 14" or more and I want to be confident that the square I'm using for all of this, is as close to 90* as I can afford. I know wood is not metal, but I want to be as accurate as I can be and leave the error for the wood...does that make sense?

[Peter Kuhlman]

My most used square in my shop by far is an 18" Precision Triangle square from Woodpeckers. Not currently in production but does come up occasionally when they make a production run. I far prefer the triangle as it is self supporting and is far less likely to go out of calibration since it is braced by design. I have checked it against my high dollar Starrett 12" square and seems to be just as accurate. Cost me around $110. If it is out of square by .001-.002, I sure can't detect it with anything I have as reference.

[Sam Murdoch]

I am very happy with my Woodpecker squares http://www.woodpeck.com/measuringhome.html

[Derek Arita]

I am very happy with my Woodpecker squares http://www.woodpeck.com/measuringhome.html
Sam, I'd love to get a Woodpecker Triangle or Precision Square, but they're not big enough. I'd like one that is at least 14" to 16". I've emailed them to see if they have anything like that either now or coming up.

[Greg R Bradley]

It helps but only a small amount. There is not one square that is perfect for all types of woodworking including tool setup.

Super accurate squares for machine setup and metal work tend to be one piece of solid steel or granite. Granite tends to give you more accuracy at a lower cost with the huge advantage of stability when you change the temperature of one part when touching it with your hands. You tend to bring the part to the square with this type of tool since they can weigh a lot. A granite square is great as a reference to check other squares since you get huge accuracy for relatively low cost. Sold steel reference squares are close in accuracy but since a 12x18" might be something you could lift with one hand, they are a least portable. They also have some real weight behind them and make it easy to damage your work with a sharp edge, can easily be damaged due to their own weight, etc. etc. I can't see much in woodworking that requires that accuracy. That might include tool setup.

An interesting woodworking square useful for tool setup is the Woodpeckers 1281 square shown here: http://www.woodpeck.com/1281.html
It is an amazingly useful tool and has several functions like the ridge that helps it sit on the edge of a piece of wood or tool, a recess that lets you mark completely across the work, and inch or mm markings. I don't think it would be an exaggeration to say that you should buy one of these and then see what else you might want.
They also made larger and smaller version of this as one-time tools that seem to keep repeating about once a year or so. Good luck prying my 16x26" from me: http://www.woodpeck.com/2616squarewp.html
Incra makes smaller version of these for less money but without the measurements: http://www.incrementaltools.com/INCRA_Guaranteed_Squares_7_p/gsqr7.htm
These types of tools are much better than traditional machinist's squares for woodworking. However, some people find uses for the solid one piece steel squares and use them for woodworking even though they are less useful for many purposes.
I find the small 4-6" adjustable double square useful for many purposes also. Starrett make these in both cast iron and hardened styles, both of which have hardened blades. I prefer PEC for less money and there is a company that sells blems for an astonishingly low price. These would be a good deal at twice this price: http://store.harryepstein.com/cp/ProductsEngineering/7105-4R.html
PEC uses the same size body for 4" and 6" double squares. I almost prefer the 6" Starrett with the larger body over the 6" PEC but only by a small margin. The Starrett seems no better quality and is 4 times the price.
For fun, I took my Woodpeckers units into work and tested them on a precision tool that costs $400K and is built onto a 16 ton chunk of granite. I was VERY impressed.

[Bruce Page]

Derek, I know this isn’t what you’re asking about but I needed a large square a few years ago and ended up buying one of these from Lee Valley: Carpenter's Square (http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?p=32587&cat=1,42936,42944&ap=1)
I checked it with my 8” Starrett toolmakers square and saw no deviation. I set it up on my milling machine table and using my .0005 test indicator indicated the 24” length parallel to my X axis to within .001 (as I recall) and then checked the 16” length by moving my mill’s Y axis. I only saw .002 -.003 total deviation.
The LV square has pretty good specs right off the shelf with an angular accuracy of ±0.001 radian.
Anyway, just a thought.

[Brian Cosgrove]

I am also on the hunt for a similar square. I was looking at this one in the 18 x 8 size after it was mentioned by someone on the Felder Owner's Group.

http://www.brassandtool.com/Squares.html

Brian

[Sam Murdoch]

Sam, I'd love to get a Woodpecker Triangle or Precision Square, but they're not big enough. I'd like one that is at least 14" to 16". I've emailed them to see if they have anything like that either now or coming up.

I have the 1281 and also the 26" x 16" precision square from Woodpeckers that Greg Bradley provided links to. Worth a call to Woodpeckers to see if they are running another batch of those 26x16s. Both of these squares are excellent tools.

[Derek Arita]

Great info. Just what I was looking for. The Woodpeckers square would be exactly what I am looking for. The New England Brass square is something else I'm going to look into. I may also purchase the Lee Valley square just to have an accurate carpenters square in the shop. Thanks for all the help.

[Chris Padilla]

I want as accurate a square as I can get, to do everything from setting up my machines, to checking stock for squareness. I don't want to spend more than a couple hundred $, if I can help it. I want it to be 14" or more and I want to be confident that the square I'm using for all of this, is as close to 90* as I can afford. I know wood is not metal, but I want to be as accurate as I can be and leave the error for the wood...does that make sense?

I think having tools to set up your machines to a finer precision than wood could ever need is a fine objective. I don't see any harm in ensuring your equipment is more precise than the product you are running through the equipment. It is just one less worry as you are building something.

[Huck Schwee]

Sam, I'd love to get a Woodpecker Triangle or Precision Square, but they're not big enough. I'd like one that is at least 14" to 16". I've emailed them to see if they have anything like that either now or coming up.

Aren't these the size your looking for?

http://www.woodpeck.com/2616squarewp.html (http://www.woodpeck.com/2616squarewp.html)

[Derek Arita]

Thanks for all the help. I did something kinda crazy. I went and bought an 18" Starrett 20-18 at a really great price, in great condition. At the same time, I saw a 24" 20-24, also at a great price and condition, so I bought it as well.
Kinda crazy for me to get both, but I'm sure I'll use them. Since I paid less than $750 for both, I feel I got a great deal. Both are from reputable sellers and both accept returns if not 100% satisfied. Also, interestingly, they both tested the squares in shop and found them to be well within .0001"/6" of length. One even showed a video of the test procedure. I thought that was pretty cool.
Anyways, I hope this will end my search for a great square. Thanks again for all the help. It's still too bad the Woodpecker 24" is no longer available. I'll report here when I get the squares in my hands.

[Chris Padilla]

You're in good company with the craziness, Derek!! Most of us completely understand. :D

[Derek Arita]

Thanks. I did make an error. The 20-24 is a 24", not 20".

[Greg R Bradley]

I suggest you see one of these in person before you proceed. You are probably in for a shock.

[Derek Arita]

I suggest you see one of these in person before you proceed. You are probably in for a shock.
What kind of shock?

[Greg R Bradley]

These are really massive in the larger sizes. Even a 20-12 is getting to be a weapon that can hurt people, other things, and itself pretty easily. Between the weight, the narrow blade, and the sharp corners and edges they are kind of nasty to use. We have a shop that has all these and just don't use them unless we have to.

[Chris Padilla]

Greg has a good point. I have a 36" Starrett straight-edge and that suckers edges are sharp! You have to be careful not to cut yourself, mangle your work, or ding up the straight-edge. It is NOT something I have hanging on a nail ready at hand in the shop. I only take it out as needed. Otherwise, it stays wrapped in the special rust-preventing paper in came in and within its cardboard box.

[Dave Zellers]

This is the craziest thread I've seen here since I joined.

$700 for 2 squares? And they can cut you? Testing against a $400,000 granite 'squares R us', superman square?

Ooooooooo Kaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyyy.

Enjoy your delusions. Have your fun. Spend your money. (that's a good thing!) I do get the point of setting up your machines accurately-- if you were machining nuclear rocket parts, I'd stifle myself.

But it's wood.

Apologies in advance for my rant. As amusing as this thread is, I can only shake my head for so long without chiming in. Good luck with your new squares.

[Derek Arita]

Greg has a good point. I have a 36" Starrett straight-edge and that suckers edges are sharp! You have to be careful not to cut yourself, mangle your work, or ding up the straight-edge. It is NOT something I have hanging on a nail ready at hand in the shop. I only take it out as needed. Otherwise, it stays wrapped in the special rust-preventing paper in came in and within its cardboard box.
Hey, thanks!

[Michael Dunn]

This is the craziest thread I've seen here since I joined.

$700 for 2 squares? And they can cut you? Testing against a $400,000 granite 'squares R us', superman square?

Ooooooooo Kaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyyy.

Enjoy your delusions. Have your fun. Spend your money. (that's a good thing!) I do get the point of setting up your machines accurately-- if you were machining nuclear rocket parts, I'd stifle myself.

But it's wood.

Apologies in advance for my rant. As amusing as this thread is, I can only shake my head for so long without chiming in. Good luck with your new squares.

I hear ya man. I loves spending me some money. But, I could buy a new SCMS for the price of some of those squares. Who can justify that? Not I. That being said, I do actually need to buy some slightly better squares. My Swanson's are pretty much garbage.

[Mark Wooden]

I'ts all relative to what you're doing......
http://flairwoodworks.com/2013/04/01/magic-square-changed-how-i-work/

[ken masoumi]

I do get the point of setting up your machines accurately-- if you were machining nuclear rocket parts, I'd stifle myself.

But it's wood.

.
I have brought this subject of extremely tight tolerances when setting up woodworking tool(power tools/machines)and not accepting 5-10 thou. variation in your work even though not visible at all in the final product. we are talking about WOOD which it's dimensions can change in a hot humid afternoon compare to the nice dry morning when it was cut.

I see amazing work coming out of third world countries where high priced machines are scarce and inexpensive shop made hand tools are often used,or even when looking at old furnitures made in north america 100-200 years ago, were the builders intolerant of inconsistencies in the wood that they used to cut or did they work around it to make the final product a masterpiece.?
May be we need a new forum to be called "extreme woodworking".
My comments were not directed to any one I'm just a new woodworker trying to make sense of it all.

[Derek Arita]

In my defense, let me say this...I could have gotten away with spending a fraction of the $ I spent on most of the tools and machines in my shop. I've seen some really great furniture from people who have only hand tools that I would have replaced long ago and I have great respect for those people. Do I need a $3000 table saw, $1500 jointer or a $2000 planer, etc.? No, but I have them and enjoy them as much as the work they allow me to do. Some spend hundreds of thousands of $ on their machines. Guess we all draw our lines in different places.
Am I being anal about these squares...absolutely...but that's me...and I'll enjoy them for what they are, as well as what they can do for me. Whether I use these squares for woodworking, machining or anything else in the future, I'll know I have the best squares I could find for the $ I could afford to spend. Maybe I don't have a boat or an RV or a gas guzzling 4X4, but have my tools and I enjoy them all.

[Dave Zellers]

I certainly didn't mean to put you in a situation where you needed to defend yourself. It's somewhat relative to what we can afford I guess. I know if I could afford it, I'd have better tools.

Enjoy 'em!

[Derek Arita]

Thanks Dave. I guess, "In my defense..." should read, "Let me explain...".

[Tom Walz]

You know it is possible to "tune" squares with some gentle hammering. If you hit the metal on the inside of the elbow you spread the legs. If you hit the outside you move the legs closer together. You have to hit it hard enough to slightly deform the metal.

Yes, this is really true.
No, I have never done it.
If I ever did try it, it would be with a very cheap square.


Check your copy of Handy Farm Devices by R. Cobleigh - the Lost Library publishers 1909

[Harvey Melvin Richards]

You know it is possible to "tune" squares with some gentle hammering. If you hit the metal on the inside of the elbow you spread the legs. If you hit the outside you move the legs closer together. You have to hit it hard enough to slightly deform the metal.

Yes, this is really true.
No, I have never done it.
If I ever did try it, it would be with a very cheap square.


Check your copy of Handy Farm Devices by R. Cobleigh - the Lost Library publishers 1909

I've done it with success on framing squares. I have a drywall square that was so far out of square that I drilled out 3 of the 4 rivets on the head, and re attached it with bolts.