PLEASE tell me that there is another way!

[Harold Burrell]

I'm building a roubo style workbench. I've got the top glued up. About 24 X 72. Made out of pine...5 1/2" thick (as of now). My plan is to flatten it with a router. However, I am also considering flattening it with hand planes. It is just that I have never done any dimensioning by hand before and I do not know as I want to "practice" on this.

I can just see myself working it down from 5 1/2" to 1 1/4" by the time I get it right. :eek:

Anyway...none of that is the problem.

What IS the problem is this...I need to cut off the ends and square them up. Is there any other way to do it other than a hand saw??? I don't trust my hand sawing ability AT ALL. As with the thicknessing, my fear is to end up with a 2' long table by the time I'm done. I don't mind telling you...it scares the CRAP out of me.

Not to mention, that I am a tad lazy...

And...well...it doesn't end there. What about the dog holes? 3/4" holes with a brace??? Again...:eek:

[Zach Dillinger]

You could use a circular saw to clean up the ends... if you must :)

And I've heard that a 3/4" spiral upcut router bit in a plunge router will make short work of those dog holes.

If it were me, I'd get down my one-man 4 foot long crosscut saw and have those ends trimmed right quick :)

And don't worry if the ends aren't completely square. The ends on my bench aren't perfect... my workpieces do not know the difference!

[mike holden]

You can use a circular saw, cutting from top and bottom, or rent one of the 12 inch blade circular saws. Frankly, I would rather use a handsaw. It is a class three cut, knife the line and chisel (by hand, not hammer) a small trench (approx 1/32 deep) to guide the handsaw.

As regards the dog holes - you will have to counterbore them on the bottom if you wish to use holdfasts, 5 1/2 is far too thick. Four inches is too thick for any holdfast except the veritas screw type. Three inches will work with the Gramercy holdfasts. This is why I know this, four inches of maple.

259440

[Chris Griggs]

Why do both the ends need to be square? I can see one end for an end vise, but depending on the type of vise the level of perfection you need probably varies. Anyway, I'd use a Circ saw too.

[Ron Kellison]

I, too, would use a circular saw. Cut from both sides using a guide and, if necessary, finish the cut with a hand saw. Hit it a few licks with a sharp plane and you should be good to go.

Ron

[Jacob Nothstine]

I would use your hand saw just make a fence to guide your saw blade straight. Clamp a 4x4 to the top of the bench and ride the saw against the board. I did that with some 4" ash I need to cut straight.

[Jim Matthews]

There are some tasks, unworthy of a Galoot.

For these, the slaughter of electrons is acceptable.
I would recommend the humble jigsaw for your board shortening needs.

Clamp on a straight edge, score a knife line (all the way 'round) and cut close with the motorized lignin slicing apparatus.
Use your very sharp plane to true up the ends to the knife line.

If you're keen on doing this by hand, bore holes with your brace along the desired cut line, first.

As to those dog holes - if you don't have a timberframer's seated drillpress, it's another job for the lowly electron.
You could bore all these - but there's a reason dull, repetitive jobs are referred to as boring.

Save your Galoot impulses for making things other people will use.
This is a tool - it's only useful when it's finished.

[Jim Koepke]

Do not let your fears prevent you from doing what needs to be done in the process of enjoying your woodworking.

Here is a link to a post about some triangles made by me:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?182466-Old-School-Triangles

You do not need to make triangles, but make a piece that is square to be moved as the saw progresses.

If you have a saw in the 5 or 6 ppi range it shouldn't take very long. Just think of the pride when your friends gawk at the cut off piece you can hang on the wall while telling them you did it with a handsaw.

Clean up afterward with a plane.

Have fun and take pictures.

You might want to buy a bottle of liniment before hand. Your favorite beverage for a reward afterwards may also be in order. Just don't get the two bottles mixed up.

As for the dog holes, drilling a small pilot hole will help to drill a counter bore on the underside and then drilling the 3/4" hole from the top to meet it. A sharp auger should present no problem.

jtk

[Larry Fox]

For the top, a #4 1/2 set to take a whispy, transparent shaving and you should have it in about 25 minutes. Ends - that's easy, shooting board and a couple of passes with the miter-plane should about do it. :rolleyes:

I would use a circular saw with a guide for the ends. Top probably easier than you think with a hand plane - I would give it a go to see how it feels to you and adjust as necessary. As others have pointed out - its a tool, have fun with the build. If the planing is less than 100% and anyone asks - tell them it is supposed to be that way.

Post pictures

[jamie shard]

Ah, just do it and brag about it later. No big deal! :)

[Harold Burrell]

Wow...thanks guys...I think...;)

Mike, I too have been wondering if 5 1/2" was too thick. Do the rest of you all agree? Perhaps I should take advantage of my spare thickness and work the planes...

[Jim Belair]

Wow...thanks guys...I think...;)

Mike, I too have been wondering if 5 1/2" was too thick. Do the rest of you all agree? Perhaps I should take advantage of my spare thickness and work the planes...

There's no use wondering about it now, it's done. Just plan to counterbore the dog holes as Mike says.

[linke combs]

I just went through this exercise last weekend. I used a circular saw with a thin board as a guide. I only cut from the top and had about 3/4" left at the bottom to slice through with a hand saw and then clean up with a sharp plane. I saved my strength for flattening the top with a plane. After doing most of the work on my modified Holtzappfel by hand, I had no qualms about using a circular saw on the slab ends.

My dog holes will be with a brace and bit. A 3/4" hole done with a sharp bit is fairly easy work and quick as well. I was very intimidated using them to hog waste out of my mortises, but was amazed at how easy it was the first time I tried it.

Good luck.

lcombs

[Jon Shank]

From a relatively new guy I'd say go for the power tools to cut the ends and bore the dog holes. I would probably touch up the ends with a sharp plane, because I've gotten to like using them alot. I've got a handsaw, but I haven't even gotten around to picking up a brace yet. One of these days.....

On planing the surface though, I would go for it by hand. I did a bench top about 48" by 28", so quite a bit smaller than yours, but I was pleasantly surprised by how well it went and how easy it was from a technique standpoint. You've got a lot of stock to play with if you want to be really anal about getting it perfectly flat and worst case scenario you have to counter bore a little less! Seriously, doing my bench was a great learning experience and some good fun and satisfying, although admittedly tiring work getting to know my planes a little better. I say go for it!

Jon

[george wilson]

I'd use my electric plane to clean up the ends after circular sawing. Sorry,my old joints are too worn out for too much heavy wood smoothing.

[Pat Barry]

Seriously George, an electric plane? JK

With regard to the end cuts thru 5 1/2 inches of pine, I would use the circular saw with a guide as suggested by many and then to finish with the hand saw and plane to clean it up. If I had an electric plane like George I would certainly use it also. I don't understand the advice to do this cut with a jigsaw, that seems inconceivable. Maybe that person misread your thickness. With regard to the top, I'd go with the handplane approach to start and if that doesn't work well due to knots in the wood, then go with the router process and a larger bit size.

[glenn bradley]

Hmm, me-thinks thine eyes were bigger than thy stomach? 5-1/2" is a bit stout for a workbench and more of a size for the butcher to cut meat on IMHO ;). Not to worry, I imagine it will end up down around 4 or so before you are done. I would thickness it before worrying about the ends. a router bridge should take care of that nicely and then the ends will be thinner before you have to lop them off.

I read an article where the bench maker used a guide as you would with a circ saw but then used a router with a straight bit to cut a dado on all four surfaces an inch deep or so. He then used a handsaw to cut "somewhere" inside the dado. This left him very accurate edges on the show surfaces. Once the stub was sawn off he used rasps, files and finally a hand plane to bring the "tenon" down to the shoulders made by the router. It seems there is always more than one way to skin the cat.

[Bob Jones]

There is nothing magic about hand sawing and planing skills - both require practice. This project is a great opportunity to practice both. Your results may not be brag worthy, but the practice will be worth it.

[Harold Burrell]

Again...I appreciate the input, guys. I will tell you, though, that I am less "fearful" of the handtool approach now. Especially in light of the fact that I seem to have PLENTY of thickness to work with. However, when it comes to trimming the ends, I'll probably at least start with the circ saw. Mostly because my handsaws are only "sort of" sharp. :o

[paul cottingham]

Boring the dog holes with a brace and bit goes pretty darn fast. In fact, it is probably faster than the powered alternative.

[Harold Burrell]

Boring the dog holes with a brace and bit goes pretty darn fast. In fact, it is probably faster than the powered alternative.

hmmm...OK, I'm game. I must admit, though, I have a couple of braces but I don't have any bits. If I understand it correctly, I need to be looking for a #12 for 3/4" holes???

[george wilson]

Yes,an electric plane if you are old and creaky like me. I had to fit all new doors in this 1949 house when we moved in. First,the old doors were all apparently CHAIN SAWED(no kidding) off 1 1/2" short from fitting shag carpeting some time in its past. I electric planed each door and carefully fitted new wood to the bottom of each. The panels had shrunk about 1/8" all around over the years,leaving a thick build up of lead based paint which turned out to be murder to get off later. I threw out all the old doors and fitted all new doors throughout the house. My Bosch electric plane with the Fein vacuum fitted to the exhaust made the job so much easier. You can do quite accurate work(of this nature) with fine settings of the plane.

I did mortise all the hinges by hand as I've grown to hate messy routers. There were over 12 doors,maybe more. Had to hand fit the old locks,too. Hinges were all stripped and re painted. This old house had had many coats of paint over the years. Meanwhile,I had spinal stenosis. The whole mess was very painful.

[Don Kingston]

Set up a nice solid level area to stand and true up the ends with a chain saw , or my 2nd choice a long blade on a sawzall

[george wilson]

Any jigsaw type saw is likely going to have its blade get out of square in wood that thick(or even 2" thick). The circular saw is the best idea,cut from both sides. The cuts MUST line up. Then,hand saw the web out. A chain saw is likely going to chip out the edges pretty badly. I'd never try that.

[paul cottingham]

hmmm...OK, I'm game. I must admit, though, I have a couple of braces but I don't have any bits. If I understand it correctly, I need to be looking for a #12 for 3/4" holes???
Yes, I believe so. Make sure it is sharp. I made measurements, drilled pilot holes, then used the brace and bit. Worked great.

[Jim Belair]

...and you'll need another bit, maybe 1 1/4 or 1 1/2 to drill the counter bores on the underside.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

I did a series of dog holes recently in a maple top - that was a bit of work, but none of the drills I had were going to hold up to the job. A 12" brace and it worked fine. But in pine, I wouldn't hesitate to use a brace at all - it would chew right through it. Depending on your area, you may very well be able to pick up a useable 3/4" bit and brace for less than the cost of a nice router bit to do the job. I know I did. (Although not having a router at the time, the router bit wouldn't have helped!) In pine, you could probably do the job with a 10" brace.

A paddle bit in a powered drill would probably work fine in pine as well, which may be a workable option, as well.

if you can flip the benchtop over still, counterboring might be quickest with a router and an under-sized bearing on a guided bit if you've got one, after the initial holes are drilled. Being the underside, and being pine, you could probably just whack out some extra space with chisels pretty quickly, too - it doesn't need to be pretty.

The key to flattening a large work surface like you're dealing with is identifying *where* wood needs to be removed, and focus on those parts, working as coarsely as you feel comfortable, as easily as you can. You can spend forever just running a jointer up and down the thing going with the grain set at a fine shaving and just get tired and sweaty and maybe end up worse. You can also hog off huge chunks with a scrub plane and get thinner and thinner going back and forth (like trying to even up your sideburns and ending up clean shaven).

Focus on figuring out where wood needs to be removed, and a feel for how much, and take that off, working across the grain getting close, then work finer diagonally using longer planes. Stop frequently to re-evaluate and figure out where you stand at that moment. There's at least a couple of videos on this stuff, and a short article in PW.

[Greg Portland]

I'm building a roubo style workbench. I've got the top glued up. About 24 X 72. Made out of pine...5 1/2" thick (as of now). My plan is to flatten it with a router.
Do the same exact thing on the ends. Clamp a rail on the top and bottom parallel to the desired cut line. Build up an aux base for the router and have it ride along on these rails. I'd work from the bottom up so if gravity takes over the bit will not gouge into the uncut wood.

[Tom Vanzant]

Harold, another approach to drilling dog holes: using electrons, drill 3/4-1" deep with a Forstner bit, then drill thru with a spade drill. You'll keep a crisp edge at the surface that will chamfer nicely. As others have said, you'll need to bore relief c'bores on the lower face.

[Trevor Walsh]

I used a circ saw and bored the dogs with a brace. If I'd have had a coarse enoguh xcut panel saw I'd have done that. I did the rough milling and glue up at work it's a 4 beam top, on the power equipment there.

Then flattened by hand, it's not as bad as you might imagine, just check carefully where you need to remove material, and start with the jack, if you are nervous about botching it use a light cut, it would take a long time to eff it up.

[Mark Roderick]

My only suggestion is for God's sake don't flatten the top with a router! What a horribly loud, time-consuming, and miserable experience! Use hand planes. If you need to remove a lot of wood this would be a great time to buy a scrub plane - even the really good ones are cheap and you will be amazed how effective they are. This sounds more negative than I intend, but I would almost say that if you're not willing to use hand planes to flatten your bench top then there's really no reason to have that kind of bench, which is mostly about using hand tools.

[John W Johnson]

My bench came in at 4 1/4" x 22" x 93". I used a Skil Saw to cut thru most of the ends, cutting from both sides, and finished the small center ridge with a hand plane. I used a template to guide the saw.

Winding sticks indicated that the oopposite corners of my bench were about 1/4" out of flat. But the center of the bench, the middle five feet or so, appeared to be flat. I used a jack plane with a strong camber to attack those corners aggressively until the winding sticks said I was very close. Then I planed the whole bench diagonally with a slightly cambered blade in both directions to get it mostly flat. Winding sticks used up and down the length of the bench make it pretty clear where the high spots are. Then I switched to a longer plane working lengthwise to take out most of the ripples left by the jack plane. As soon as the winding sticks told me it was flat along the length, I quit. It took a little over an hour to flatten the whole thing, and that was with frequent breaks.

I checked it again about a year and a half later after I moved into a new shop, and the same corners were about another 1/8" out of plane. I repeated the same process, and it took less than 15 minutes to true. Now the top is perfectly flat and smooth. More than once I've been tempted to take out one of my cambered irons to give it a little texture like I had the first go around, but I'm too lazy, so it goes undone until the next time it needs a flattening.

[Don Kingston]

Thanks George.

[Josh Doran]

I recently completed a roubo bench with a 4" top. As far as flattening the top, I can't imagine using anything other than hand planes. You have a super thick top so there's plenty of wood to spare. Not the ideal first hand plane project though. How close to flat are you? The answer will determine which plane you should start with. If very close, I'd go straight for the jointer plane. Working diagonal in both directions like an "X" always with the grain to prevent tearout. Scribble marks with a pencil all over top. As you plane, you'll remove the high spots, leaving pencil marks in the low spots. This will tell you what still needs work and how close to flat you are. Check with winding sticks and straight edge. If straight edge pivots anywhere except at the edges, you have a high spot at pivot point. If edges are low, plane inside edges until hump is gone. If top is out of wind, mark low corners. Plane whole top, picking up plane as you reach the two low corners. If your glue ups were off, I'd start with the coarse jack or fore plane with heavy cambered blade. Work straight across top until flat, chamfering the back edge to prevent spelching. If the length has large hump, I'd again start with the jack/fore plane.
The ends as mentioned don't have to perfect unless you plan on using an end vise. If so, this is how I did it using a hand saw. I saw the end using the same method as sawing a tenon. I stood the top on edge so I could easily saw the long widths while standing. A lot easier on the body and allowed me to see the other long edge in back. I marked a line on all four edges. Then I created a shallow kerf on the top narrow edge. With the saw in the shallow kerf, I sawed along one long edge creating a diagonal cut. I then performed the same cut on the back long edge. The key is to only saw one line at a time, avoiding sawing what you can't see. I then sawed the middle triangular shape out using a horizontal cut. I repeated this procedure on down the length. Clean up with block plane.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Another thing worth mentioning, is the fear of ending up with a substantially thinner piece than desired when surfacing lumber by hand can be a concern if you were trying to flatten a twisted 5/4" board or something, but the main driver of the thickness you're going to have remaining in your benchtop is how flat it starts at. Unless your glue up is monstrously twisted, or you have a huge dip in it somewhere, as long as you're checking frequently as you go along, you should catch yourself making mistakes and be able to fix them long before you remove an appreciable amount. Assuming you got what would ultimately be the face pretty flat before glue up, and lines things up well before flattening, it should be a relatively straight-forward task, and unless you just blindly start planing and not paying attention, you shouldn't make things *worse*, and then shouldn't end up removing a crazy amount of material.

[David Castor]

I'm mostly a lurker here because I don't really know much, but I just wanted to say that for my Doug Fir workbench top (about 3.5" thick), I cut off the ends using a Craftsman handsaw my Dad bought for me about thirty years ago. I started to cut one end with my old circular saw, but it didn't go well and I hate the thing anyway. So I decided to try the handsaw figuring I couldn't really screw things up so badly that they couldn't be squared up. The handsaw worked wonderfully. It took about 20 to 30 minutes per end, including a few breaks along the way. I'm sure the fir cuts easier than most woods used for tops, but this saw has never been sharpened in its life.

If you have a decent saw, I don't think it should be that big of a deal. If I can do it, trust me, anyone can.

[Harold Burrell]

OK...you win. I'm going to "go for it" with a handsaw, planes and a brace. As you guys have already mentioned, I have plenty of top here to play with.

Besides...I just picked up a set of auger bits for my brace today at a flea market. :)

[paul cottingham]

Just as an aside, you could cheat your saw cuts by starting them on the top with a circular saw and a guide of some kind, then finishing with a sharp crosscut saw. Welcome to the right side of the fence! :D

[Erik Manchester]

Harold,

When you glued up your bench did you orient the grain in the same direction? While you can work around this somewhat if you didn't, the handplaning goes a lot easier with the grain.

Good luck with the smoothing and I look forward to some pics when you have it completed.

[Harold Burrell]

When you glued up your bench did you orient the grain in the same direction?

Yeah...as best as I could. Some of the stock had places where the grain seemed to change direction.

[Jim Foster]

When I built my Roubo 18 months ago... I had never tried to flatten a surface by hand, so I used a belt sander on the bottom of the top and it was a very poor tool for the job. I toyed with the idea of using a router and quickly passed, because making the fixture would require more talent than figuring out how to use a handplane. In the end I used a long piece of flat ground stock, to lay along the top and as to double as a winding stick, a shorter piece to use as a winding stick and my #8 and just planed mostly sideways against the grain. My top is construction grade fir with reversing grain and lots of knotholes. Using a pencil to mark high spots along with the pieces of flat ground stock and my #8, I got the surface in commendable condition within several hours. The best part is that when I'm read to give it a new once over, I'll get it a little better, a lot easier and with a lot more confidence. Also, my top is 9'x2' and I think a 6' bench will be a little less intimidating once you jump in with ha handplane. Last bit of advice on this, use wax on the sole.

The ends, I used a circular saw and made two cuts, one from the top and one from the bottom. Neither side is perfect, but it has not made one bit of difference so far. Again, at some point when I find it necessary I can revisit these edges.

Thickness, mine is 5" but 5-1/2 sounds better :)

Holes, I used a big right angle plumbers drill, anything that can drill should work. Make sure to clamp a sacrificial board underneath the where the hole comes through to keep blowout to a minimum.

In the end, flattening the top by hand was one of the surprisingly easiest parts of making the bench. Making it again, I'd think through the location of the hold-fast holes a little more

[Dave Cav]

When I built my bench (3 1/2" or so thick ash) I glued the top in two 12 inch or so wide sections, then ran them through a 15" power planer. Then I glued the two sections together and flattened them with a scrub plane, my 5 1/2 and winding sticks. Cut the ends off with a circular saw, cleaned up the ends with a router and guide, then installed an end cap on the left and an end vise on the other. The planing didn't take all that long, but it was a good workout.