Help me rearange my shop-Gorilla arrives Tomorrow!

[Larry Browning]

The Gorilla will be on my front porch tomorrow! Even though Oneida will do my duct design, I think I really need to rearange my shop before I send the layout to them. I have spent several hours with Visio drawing my shop layout. I really need some help/ideas, because I can't figure out how to do this.
The Shopsmith and Planer are on wheels, everything else is stationary.
Thanks

Larry

[Alan Tolchinsky]

Hi, That looks llike a great shop with a LOT of room. One concern is the location of the DC in the same room as the water heater. Unless you provide for return air back into the shop you may force air up the water heater flue unless of course it's electric.

[Ken Waag]

Larry,

Nice shop. Bathroom and a fridge? When do I move in?

Seriously you've got lots of space so the options abound. The only specific thing that struck me is that you may want a stationary spot for the planer so you can have a permanent DC hook up to it.
Are you planning to run duct at the ceiling? Or do you have any below floor access?

Ken

[Andy London]

I would probably move the fridge to the room with the desk and put the cyclone on that wall. Although I have mine in a seperate room, I may as well remove the door, even with a 20 X 24" opening cut in the wall, I still generate negative pressure in the main shop with the door closed, so currently I just leave the door open a bit.

The initial idea was to keep any dust and noise out of the shop but the unit works so well, as it should, there is no dust put back in the air and as for noise, it isn't that much louder than my air filter. At the moment, I run it 90% of the time I am in the shop with a 6" gate open, it seems to keep the air very clean. With my former single stage, I had the high quality aftermarket bags but there was always a small leak and I was sonstantly cleaning the bags to keep the CFM up at the hoods....in short a mess I wanted to hide, thus the DC room. I had no idea a cyclone would work like it does.

I did try a filter in my return hole in the wall, just to cover the opening and baffle the noise, but there was too much resistance from the filter so I have a buddy that is a blacksmith making me a nice grate.

Good luck.

Andy

[Frank Pellow]

That's a great shop Larry.

Your machine placement looks good to me and I like the fact that the dust controller will be in a different room than the machinery. I assume that the drop for the mobile planer will be out in the open area to the right of the doors and below the table saw (in the diagram).

[Rich Konopka]

Wow Larry, that is a real nice Big shop area you have to work with.

Have you considered clustering your machines closer together? For example, the joiner and planer can be located back to back. The router table moved next to the tablesaw. Are there any new tools in the future? where would they go.

Think of how you work and create work zones which cluster the activities so you do not have to walk back and forth. For example, Consider moving the final assembly area next to the finishing room.

Keeping the machines closer together will save you money and increase the efficiency of the DC because you will have fewer and shorter runs. Also, it will reduce the area you have to clean up in the shop if all the machines are in the same proxmity.

Thanks for allowing me to add my 2 cents.:D

[Charlie Jones]

Thats a nice space. I would get lost. I agree with Andy about the seperate room. I added a closet on the outside of my building for the cyclone. I insulated it with R-19 and made a baffle air return. I checked the noise level with a meter and its running 74 DBL at the TS. All I can hear inside the shop is the air rushing into the pipes. The most usefull way to run pipe is down the middle of the ceiling. That way you can can move drops around easy. I used 6" S&D pipe
and did not glue it. This is a view of my closet with cyclone installed before I put the door on.

[JayStPeter]

Larry,

That's a nice size shop. I like the layout as well. I enjoy having the TS, miter saw, and a bench as a little work triangle.
The only thing I'd change is that I'd make the planer more permanent. I'd put it next to the jointer and make a surfacing station with DC drops. You may even want to consider swapping the TS and jointer so it is closer to the lumber rack. Make sure to leave some room for a small table to set lumber on while being surfaced. I just drag my little portable assembly table over.
Also, when I did my duct work, I considered future purchases. I always have a list of things I know I'll eventually buy. I left some wyes in the system that are capped off. It'll be easier to add drops later that way. I already know where I'll put future drum sander and lathe purchases :)

Jay

[Larry Browning]

Thanks for the input. I will answer a few of the question asked so far.
I do have a crawl space under the shop so I was thinking I would run ducting to the TS and jointer under the floor. The bandsaw is on the wish list but I wanted to at least plan for it. Oh, yeah, I think I will add a spindle sander to the mix as well. Where should that go?
I was thinking that I might move the miter saw to where the lumber rack is, move the lumber rack to where the shopsmith is and the shopsmith to where the miter saw is. Also I kinda like the idea of swaping the TS and jointer and then adding the planer next to the jointer. Since the shop is pier and beam I would like keep the heavy equipment over the center beam.
More later, I gota get back to work.

Larry

[mike malone]

larry..that is a shop gloat!!!
Most of us are working in a space the size of your finishing room.

congrats on the gorilla, let us know if it is a US motor. BTW you'll need 2 helpers to set up the yellow beast when it arrives...(don't ask me how i know this)
good luck, mike

[Michael Gabbay]

Larry - my 2cents...


I would run the main line straight across and then branch for the far wall somewhere after the table saw. I'd run a dedicated line to the table saw and maybe share a line between the jointer and planer. At least you could run a drop there with 3 gates - TS, jointer and planer which would be non-dedicated.

Onieda did my design and had a bunch of good suggestions. You can ask them to try to keep costs down by having shared lines between machines. I generally don't need dedicated lines except for table saw and miter saw. But my shop is much smaller so I need to be flexible with space.

Nice shop!

Mike

[Ken Waag]

Larry,
I don't know if you are still looking for ideas but check the layout below.

Iwould run under florr at least to the TS and Jointer. Nothing worse than a drop in middle of open space.

[John Miliunas]

Good lookin' shop, Larry! Actually, the shape mimics mine to a great degree. Hence, a recommendation or two. For starters, your idea of moving the MS is a good one, because to get DC going to it from where the Yellow Thing will be would require some pretty extreme turns. I would not, however, put your lumber storage clear at the far end of the shop. Keep it where you'll be doing the bulk of your processing, otherwise you're just making more steps for yourself for each process, including offloading when you get the material in. Then, it appears that from your main double doors to the fridge, you have in excess of 30'. Why not consider putting your jointer and planer back to back perpendicular to your TS? With 30', you'd have plenty of infeed/outfeed room for 13 or 14' boards and how often is something like that processed? (Unless you're making many, many feet of trim molding.):) I would then take the workbench and put it on the outfeed end of my TS, especially if it's the same or a little lower. Even though you have an outfeed on the TS, you may be surprised at how handy another table beyond it may be when running extra-long material. Oh, and I don't mean to butt that up to your outfeed table. Leave room all the way around it. In planning for a BS, I would also consider making accommodations for it closer to the TS/Milling area. I don't know what your intentions for a BS are, but I find myself using it a LOT for assisting in the processing of rough lumber. So, why not keep it close to that action. I'd probably put it on a mobile base where the tool cabinet currently resides. Move the tool cab over enough for it and you should still have the room you need for your miter station. And, with both the tool cab and BS on wheels, you can still process extra-long material on the miter station if the need arises!:) Also, I would probably put the other massive chip-maker (router table) in the area of where you currently show your jointer. Two reasons: 1) If at the same height as your assy. table, you have extra support for long pieces. 2) As stated, these things create a LOT of chips and this placement would get you more in-line and closer to your cyclone. As for sanding equipment, they primarily produce finer dust and I have found the keeping them at the end of the DC run is OK, so that is where I'd locate those types of machines. Plus, those are more in-line with the refinement steps of the building process and not always used, so you may as well keep them a bit more out of the way. Basically, my recommendations are such that you're creating more of a "loop" or circle of routine processes and saving yourself many steps. That's a BIG shop and if you can alleviate redundant steps, you'll be saving more energy for doing the fun stuff!:D :cool:

[JayStPeter]

Ken/Larry,

I liked my 6" jointer in that position relative to the TS, but not my 8".

Ohhh to have that much space to play with.

Jay

[Andy London]

Oneida announced this morning they are keeping the Baldor motor, for those who are waiting I thought you would like to know....smoking deal as these motors alone retail for over $500.00 USD on the net.

http://www.oneida-air.com/news.htm

Andy

[Larry Browning]

Ok boys,
Here is version 2 of my layout. I have rearanged things using many of your suggestions. It became pretty clear that I needed to get some actual dimensions instead of relying on my best guess. I added several wall dimensions and resized some of the objects.

After trying to find a new home for the lumber rack and MS, I decided to leave them where they are now. I have been making large cabinet type projects and I have been using the open area by the dbl doors as an assembly area. This causes many extra steps. It looks to me like the new layout now has 2 open areas, one in front of the TS and another between the assy table and the finish room.

I also decided to color code a few things. Red means its on rollers, green (as in green with envy) means its on the wish list.

Ken suggested I add a sanding table with dust collection, I think I may be able to upgrade the assy table to incorporate a dust port. By the way Ken, how did you grab my drawing and modify it? That's really cool!!

[Edit added after uploading picture]
It just occured to me that I could move the DC back to the outside wall next to the desk. this would allow more room befor I had to make a bend in the ductwork. I think the ductiong would be above the breaker box door. What do you think?

[John Miliunas]

Hey Larry, changes noted. With all due respect, though, I think that jointer placement is going to cause you headaches. Or, more accurately, bruises to your lower extremities! Remember, that's the business side of your TS. Not only that, but it also looks to be like it's the main path to your wood storage. So, you'd be threading your way through that stuff getting wood into storage, then again taking it back the other to work with it. Yes, I realize that the Woodmaster is mobile, but moving stuff around all the time gets old. Besides, THAT shop is big enough that you can just about get away with zero mobile bases!:) I'd probably then move the router table parallel with the assembly table. I like where you put your tool cabinet in respect to the workbench and I also agree with moving your DC back to the outside wall, giving you a bit more "bending" room to get to the CMS station and BS, which I'm sure you'll have in no time! :D Hey, just MHO's, nothing more. You've got a GREAT space there and YOU know a heckuva' lot better than anyone here what your needs and working habits are like. Just hope we can add a little bit of insight and personal experience in helping you make adjustments.:) OR, you can do it EXACTLY as WE say and then have an excuse for the first time something screws up!:D :rolleyes: :) :cool:

[Jim Becker]

Just watch your working heights with that arrangement, Larry, to be sure that your jointer and planer don't interfere with any crosscutting activity you may do at the table saw. It's important to remember that for some tools the material handling space is not necessarily in one direction. I know I tend to "hang off" the left side of the table saw top in those situations. Other than that little comment, looks great!

Consider running some air lines out to both your workbench and your assembly area, rather than using long hoses, too. I just made that change and I know I'm going to love it!

[Larry Browning]

Hey Larry, changes noted. With all due respect, though, I think that jointer placement is going to cause you headaches. Or, more accurately, bruises to your lower extremities! Remember, that's the business side of your TS. Not only that, but it also looks to be like it's the main path to your wood storage. So, you'd be threading your way through that stuff getting wood into storage, then again taking it back the other to work with it. Yes, I realize that the Woodmaster is mobile, but moving stuff around all the time gets old. Besides, THAT shop is big enough that you can just about get away with zero mobile bases!:) I'd probably then move the router table parallel with the assembly table. I like where you put your tool cabinet in respect to the workbench and I also agree with moving your DC back to the outside wall, giving you a bit more "bending" room to get to the CMS station and BS, which I'm sure you'll have in no time! :D Hey, just MHO's, nothing more. You've got a GREAT space there and YOU know a heckuva' lot better than anyone here what your needs and working habits are like. Just hope we can add a little bit of insight and personal experience in helping you make adjustments.:) OR, you can do it EXACTLY as WE say and then have an excuse for the first time something screws up!:D :rolleyes: :) :cool:

John, I am very interested in your thoughts on my layout because you had said that your space was about the same as mine. Where would you move the jointer? I have already about decided to remove the wheels from the planer (might put them to the router table)

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Interesting thread....I'm learning! Keep it going please!

[Larry Browning]

Consider running some air lines out to both your workbench and your assembly area, rather than using long hoses, too. I just made that change and I know I'm going to love it!
Jim,
I have 2 air drops from the ceiling with retractable reels. One above the TS and the other between the assy table and workbench (current layout) Plus, there is an air drop in the corner formed by the bathroom and finishing room, and another in the finishing room. fed by the same line inside the wall. I did this during construction. And one more on the wall next to the room with the compressor.

Also, you have a good point about the height of each tool. The jointer bed is below the TS, but the fence is about 2" above it. And the Planer is quite a bit taller than the TS.

I gotta go mow the yard and weed eat, then go to town for SWMBO and a couple of honey do's. Then maybe some shop time. :D I'll check back ASAP

[Frank Pellow]

John, I am very interested in your thoughts on my layout because you had said that your space was about the same as mine. Where would you move the jointer? I have already about decided to remove the wheels from the planer (might put them to the router table)
As a BIG believer in flexible tool placement and mobility, I am suggesting that you do not remove the wheels. In fact, I think you should add a base to your jointer. I know that you have a LOT more space than I do, but you may still want to move machines around from time to time.

[Harvey Chute]

First: thank you all, I am learning a lot from this thread about wood shop design.

Here's another thought: it seems when I have to enter my shop to quickly retrieve something, that "something" is usually in my tool cabinet. I would consider putting the tool cabinet close to your most-used exterior door, so you can "reach in" and grab that socket set or screwdriver without crossing the shop floor.

With most shops that's not an issue, but yours is so large it might be something to consider as a convenience factor.

- Harvey

[Larry Browning]

First: thank you all, I am learning a lot from this thread about wood shop design.

Here's another thought: it seems when I have to enter my shop to quickly retrieve something, that "something" is usually in my tool cabinet. I would consider putting the tool cabinet close to your most-used exterior door, so you can "reach in" and grab that socket set or screwdriver without crossing the shop floor.

With most shops that's not an issue, but yours is so large it might be something to consider as a convenience factor.

- Harvey
Hey!! It's Harvey!!!
Harvey is the guy that drew all these great tools objects in Viso. Welcome to the Creek Harvey. There is always lots of great info here.

If you have Visio you should download Harvey's Woodshop Stencil at:
http://home.comcast.net/~hchute/woodshop_visio.htm

[John Miliunas]

John, I am very interested in your thoughts on my layout because you had said that your space was about the same as mine. Where would you move the jointer? I have already about decided to remove the wheels from the planer (might put them to the router table)

Hi Larry! I guess that's why my original "plan" made for the jointer & planer to be situated perpendicular to the TS. In your last rendition, it looks like you've moved the TS further right. Personally (and this is just ME!), I would move it back a bit further to the left and position your jointer & planer in the opposite direction, as suggested earlier. I have found that configuration does not impede work for either, the TS or milling work and you've even got more room than I do! But alas, you did indicate that you like that area open for assembly. Now, weird and coincidental as this may sound, but I do much of my assembly or glue-ups in that area, as well! There really is a substantial amount of room between those machines. :) I guess maybe what you can do, seeing as to how you have basically a "clean pallet" is do something like what Frank P. did and tape off proposed areas and just walk through the motions of typical work flow. :) :cool:

[nic obie]

Hi Larry,

I like your revised layout much better than the original one.

I also agree with John M about the jointer placement. I think you would be much better off if you spun the jointer and moved it over to be right next to the planner.

[Larry Browning]

Hi Larry! I guess that's why my original "plan" made for the jointer & planer to be situated perpendicular to the TS. In your last rendition, it looks like you've moved the TS further right. Personally (and this is just ME!), I would move it back a bit further to the left and position your jointer & planer in the opposite direction, as suggested earlier. I have found that configuration does not impede work for either, the TS or milling work and you've even got more room than I do! But alas, you did indicate that you like that area open for assembly. Now, weird and coincidental as this may sound, but I do much of my assembly or glue-ups in that area, as well! There really is a substantial amount of room between those machines. :) I guess maybe what you can do, seeing as to how you have basically a "clean pallet" is do something like what Frank P. did and tape off proposed areas and just walk through the motions of typical work flow. :) :cool:

John, I am confused :confused: (normal for me) Are you saying that I put the jointer and planer in front or back of the table saw? Or just turn it around 180deg so that the feed direction is from the back of the TS to the front?

Also someone suggested that I put the jointer and planer right next to each other. The planer was my father's circa 1978 and need quite a bit of TLC. It is a heavy duty beast, but I tear it down quite often and I really need easy access to all sides. [Edit] Maybe I should leave the planer on wheels and then when I need to work on it I can disconnect the DC and move if for eaiser access.

[John Miliunas]

John, I am confused :confused: (normal for me) Are you saying that I put the jointer and planer in front or back of the table saw? Or just turn it around 180deg so that the feed direction is from the back of the TS to the front?

Also someone suggested that I put the jointer and planer right next to each other. The planer was my father's circa 1978 and need quite a bit of TLC. It is a heavy duty beast, but I tear it down quite often and I really need easy access to all sides. [Edit] Maybe I should leave the planer on wheels and then when I need to work on it I can disconnect the DC and move if for eaiser access.

Hey Larry, pardon the mess, but if you check out the "Shop Tour" site:
http://www.shoptours.org/shop_tours/files/john-miliunas2.html , I think the 1st, 2nd and 4th pics should give you a bit better visual of what I mean. Although the planer is to the backside of the jointer, it's "skewed" a bit to where the end of the outfeed on the jointer just barely overlaps the outfeed of the planer, hence leaving room all the way around. Leaving your planer mobile and a short piece of flex would even allow more lenient placement. My setup would not really allow for the workbench to remain where you have it, though. FWIW, I have both, the planer and the jointer on mobile bases, but have not had a need to move either since I planted them!:) And, like I said before, you've got even more room and less "stuff". :rolleyes: When I layed mine out, I did have a number of restrictions, because the building was existing, as were power drops and I have no way of going underneath, as it's on a slab. Also, like yourself, I drew up a floor plan, changed stuff, lived with it for a few days, looked again, redrew it and so on. After about the 6th revision, I thought it was pretty good. Surprisingly enough, in practice, there have not been any major changes done to the original plans!:) :cool:

[Larry Browning]

Ok Guys, we're gettin close!
I have made some minor changes from the last drawing. I flipped the jointer and planer feed direction and moved them next to each other. I also moved the TS forward to be more even with the door. This should give me enough crosscut room for a 12" wide board. The board would also have to hang over more than 4ft to the left of the blade to hit the jointer fence if the board or panel is wider than 12". I think that will be rare to non-existant. I moved the DC to the back wall of the Utility room (I really don't have a name for that room, any sugestions?) to give a little more straight ducting before the 1st bend. I also put the router table on wheels, and added the clamp cart that I had previously forgotten. What do you think? Anymore sugestions?

John,
I am going to need some convincing about the perpendictular idea. Would you place the jointer in front of the TS toward the bench or the door? And where would the planer be? I looked at the pictures of your shop, and I am still confused :confused:

Larry

[John Miliunas]

John,
I am going to need some convincing about the perpendictular idea. Would you place the jointer in front of the TS toward the bench or the door? And where would the planer be? I looked at the pictures of your shop, and I am still confused :confused:

Larry

Hey Larry, I think the last changes you did go a long way, but to possibly give you a bit better idea of what I meant with the jointer/planer placement, I've thrown together a quick sketch of what my shop basically looks like, mainly as it relates to the jointer/planer. Obviously, the bench would have to go elsewhere. Again, only MHO, but I personally figure that my WORKbench be closer to the ASSEMBLY bench, being as to how one directly relates to the other. In other words, I don't think I'd be able to work very efficiently with those two items so far apart. For me especially, that's NOT a good thing, 'cuz I'm alreadey slow!!!:rolleyes: :) Anyhow, here's the rough shot I have of it.:) :cool:

[Larry Browning]

John,
You have got me thinking again hmmmm :confused: In my last drawing, the workbench does seem like a stepchild over there sorta all by it's self. So I really changed things around. It's still early by I think I like it better. What do you think?

Larry

[Ken Waag]

Hey Larry,

In answer to your question regarding your drawing I just saved it a a jpeg file and I used my picture editing software (MS Digital Image Pro9) to make chnges. I'm able to encircle items and cut and paste si its pretty easy.

Lots of good ideas and designs throughout the thread. Pardon my honesty, and realize this is just one person's opinion. But, I'm least fond of the latest design. You've lost some of your work rectangles, broken up the open spaces, and left no direct paths. Just looking at the floor plan I see lots of walking around one machine to get to another.

The relative heights of your machines is one issue that has come up and makes a difference. If you can do it, a list of the heights would help. The jointer next to the tablesaw for example is a great idea unless the jointer is above the work plane of the TS. I buildt a 2" base under my TS to put it at 36" and it clears the jointer fence. I have most table heights at 36" so they can all be used as infeed or outfeed for one another, and they don't interfere with each other.

Another issue duscussed has been mobile bases and moving machines. My though is that once you get a permanent DC ducting layout set up, you don't want to be moving those machines. Mobility is a life saver for small shops or double duty situation, i.e. when you need to get a car in. You don't have either of those situations, so (again IMHO) find a good spot and leave'em there. The only item I see that I would have casters on is the assembly table. You may want to move that depending on the project or even spin it around as you glue-up.

If you'll permit me, I'll point out what I think are some concerns in the last drawing and perhaps some advantages in earlier layouts. See what you think.

Ken

[Larry Browning]

Ken,
The 2nd drawing you posted is not possible. The mitersaw table cannot fit on that wall and the lumber rack will block the ducting from the DC. With my latest design my thinking was that the workbench needed to be closer to the assy table. It also seems to have better defined work areas. I also like having the Shopsmith where it is. I use it mostly as a drill press and bandsaw right now (the bandsaw is pretty limited though). I am still not happy with the placement of the planer. I use the planer at the beginning of a project and then it sits idle until I start another project.

Also, I welcome all ideas, don't hold back what you think. I promise it won't offend me. And I will listen to what you and others have to say. Otherwise I wouldn't have asked for help.

Thanks to everyone who have taken the time to help me with this. I really do appreciate it.

Larry

[John Miliunas]

Hi Larry, I'm thinking you're getting closer to "the truth" here, with your latest re-org. Personally, I'm happy to see your workbench closer to the assy. table, as it really does make more sense. The one switch I can't quite agree with is the Shopsmith location. Would it be possible to put it back to where your clamp rack is and move the clamp rack, for instance, next to your spindle sander? I say this because, the SS does indeed make for a nice drill press. When do you use the DP? Well, for me, it's usually in the course of assembly. I believe it would make more sense getting such a tool closer to the assembly area. By your own admission, the BS operation of it isn't too great. (I *know* this, as well, because I used to have one!) For some reason, I predict that it won't be long before you have a formidable BS in there, so you may as well plan accordingly.:D Otherwise, I think you've made great improvements!:) :cool:

[Larry Browning]

Hi Larry, I'm thinking you're getting closer to "the truth" here, with your latest re-org. Personally, I'm happy to see your workbench closer to the assy. table, as it really does make more sense. The one switch I can't quite agree with is the Shopsmith location. Would it be possible to put it back to where your clamp rack is and move the clamp rack, for instance, next to your spindle sander? I say this because, the SS does indeed make for a nice drill press. When do you use the DP? Well, for me, it's usually in the course of assembly. I believe it would make more sense getting such a tool closer to the assembly area. By your own admission, the BS operation of it isn't too great. (I *know* this, as well, because I used to have one!) For some reason, I predict that it won't be long before you have a formidable BS in there, so you may as well plan accordingly.:D Otherwise, I think you've made great improvements!:) :cool:

John,
How's this? I managed to squeeze the planer in next to the jointer. I'm a little worried about the space between the TS and jointer (about 24") Is that enough room to operate it comfortably? I am also a little concerned about the space around the bench and assy table. I moved the shopsmith like you suggested. That really does make more sense.

Ken,
I think the path lines are a little less crooked with this as well. I just can't seem to find another wall for the lumber rack. Plus, I have been thinking about how much I go to the lumber rack in the course of a project. It's not that much, so I think I should give priority to the flow between machines and assembly processes.

Larry

[Rich Konopka]

Can someone answer this based on my observations. The sanding station and spindle sander are ~38 feet from the DC. Is this too far?

[Jim Becker]

Larry, on that last one, did you consider flipping the TS 180º? That puts your J & P to the right which eliminates any potential for interference with material handing to the left of the blade...where overhang typically occurs.

[John Miliunas]

Can someone answer this based on my observations. The sanding station and spindle sander are ~38 feet from the DC. Is this too far?

Rich, I am by no means an authority on this, but I have found that it's much easier for a decent DC to pick up fines from a further distance than chips. I even have a drum sander as the very last item on my runs and, that's after quite a few 45° turns!:) Works quite well, actually. Larry is installing a premium cyclone and I believe, running at least 6" main runs. IMHO he shouldn't have a problem with that.:) :cool:

[John Miliunas]

LOL!!!:D Jim "kind of" beat me to the punch on this one. I was going to suggest swapping your jointer and planer around to get by the possibility of your fence interfering with the TS. I like Jim's suggestion better!:) BTW, this last design, along with the other changes you've made, looks as though it may be the most workable and efficient of all the previous ones! Lookin' good, Larry!:) :cool:

[Larry Browning]

Larry, on that last one, did you consider flipping the TS 180º? That puts your J & P to the right which eliminates any potential for interference with material handing to the left of the blade...where overhang typically occurs.
Jim,
I agree that the jointer and planer present the biggest problem here. But it seems to me that flipping TS 180 might cause a workflow issue. With the TS in its current position there is easy access to the TS from the MS sort of a work triangle there. I purposely placed the jointer offset form the back of the TS blade so that even with overhang to the left most boards would clear the blade before hitting the fence. I will flip it around when I get home from work tonight and play with it a little more.

Larry

[Jim Becker]

I will flip it around when I get home from work tonight and play with it a little more.

This is one of the best ways to do final tweeking of a shop arrangement...make the change, step back, walk around and envision how things would be to workflow. Sometimes a slight compromise on one thing makes for overall better flow in another. Play with it since paper is no substitute for your eyes!!

[John Miliunas]

Larry, I just noticed something I find kinda' funny. If you go way back to one of my first replies on this, you may see better where I'm at. From you last drawing, if you take your jointer/planer and slide them right to where the TS is and then take your TS and put it back into your original configuration, you'd have all your clearance problems solved, the flow would still be efficient and you'd still retain close proximity to your DC for good pickup capabilities.:) :cool:

[Scott Coffelt]

Larry or someone else, can you send me the file that has the tools drawings in it? Awhile back I received it, but I can not seem to locate it now.

Thanks

[Scott Coffelt]

Never mind, I found them. Thanks Google.

[Larry Browning]

Larry, I just noticed something I find kinda' funny. If you go way back to one of my first replies on this, you may see better where I'm at. From you last drawing, if you take your jointer/planer and slide them right to where the TS is and then take your TS and put it back into your original configuration, you'd have all your clearance problems solved, the flow would still be efficient and you'd still retain close proximity to your DC for good pickup capabilities.:) :cool:
Oh, so we're back to the perpendicular thing again :D Just kidding!

I will try that, but I think you may be onto something here. I'm at work and I don't have the workshop file with me. So I will have to do it when I get home tonight.

Larry

[JayStPeter]

I tend to agree with the others. An 8" jointer will be in the way on the left side of the TS. That's how I drew mine up because I used to keep my 6" there. Once I placed the machines I had to scramble to come up with a new layout.
You might want to consider a full shop 180. Swap the lumber rack and miter saw station. Turn the TS so infeed is facing the wall with the sanders. Put the j/p on the right side of the TS. Move everything around to suit :cool: . I'd try to push the TS toward the compressor wall in this situation so you can keep both the bench and assembly table behind the TS.

Jay

[Scott Coffelt]

Dang, thee are more opinions in this place than.... but that's what we like.

Here is my take, since the shop is complete right? Before you duct, move your tools around (get a women to help, their use to telling you where to put things :) ). Move your big tools into place and walk through some sample activities and see how it all fits. I think drawing on Visio is a good start, but I still like to get a feel for space and steps. generally I like the grouping of things. I am less concerned about do I have to walk 5 more feet to get a board, in my case it isn't a production shop persay, which would void this comment. I would prefer to know I am not hitting the board on every tool when I need to do a task... that's the case I have with my current 300sqft shop....

Start with a good placement of where your TS and Jointer need to be, and also try and get the planer as close to the cyclone as possible. Generally I find these to require some serious CFM. Tools requiring less CFM or less producers can be farther away. That's my take.

[Michael Gabbay]

Larry -

Since you are buying an Oneida system why not ask them to help you out with tool placement and DC requirements? I found them to be a big help when I did my shop.

Mike

[Rich Konopka]

Rich, I am by no means an authority on this, but I have found that it's much easier for a decent DC to pick up fines from a further distance than chips. I even have a drum sander as the very last item on my runs and, that's after quite a few 45° turns!:) Works quite well, actually. Larry is installing a premium cyclone and I believe, running at least 6" main runs. IMHO he shouldn't have a problem with that.:) :cool:


John,

Thanks for the reply. I don't have a Cyclone and my DC capabilities are not impressive. Especially when I have been sanding. This thread is one of the best threads I've seen on this subject.

The one thing I can definitely say is that I have moved and moved and tweaked my machines placement and it never seems right. If I only had a larger space and higher ceilings to work in.

Larry, I envy your palatial Tool estate.



Thanks all

[Larry Browning]

Larry -

Since you are buying an Oneida system why not ask them to help you out with tool placement and DC requirements? I found them to be a big help when I did my shop.

Mike
Mike,
Rich at Oneida told me that I should get the shop rearanged BEFORE I sent him the layout of my shop. He said that they would design my ductwork, but that I needed to have the tools placed before they would do the design.

Larry

[Larry Browning]

Ok, this might be it.
I put the TS back it's original position and moved the jointer and planer where the TS was. Feed direction is left to right on both machines. I also turned the workbench 180. What do you think?

[Frank Pellow]

Larry, I like this latest layout the best.

You never replied to my recommnedation that the jointer should be on a mobile base in order to give you flexibility. Is there some reason that you don't like such mobile bases? In my experience, good bases are hassle-free.

Looking at your layout again, I would also put a mobile base under your bandsaw.

[John Miliunas]

With the disclaimer that mine is a biased opinion, let me just say: "By Jove, I think he's GOT IT!!!:D I sincerely think that if you tape those areas off physically in your shop and do a couple "walk-thru's", you will find that it flows quite nicely!:) Due to so, so very many variables of different projects and types of projects, I believe few of us will ever achieve nirvana relative to the ONE single placement. Hence, we must settle for what worksfor most of our situations. At least, that's the conclusion I came up with in my own environment and, for the most part, I have found it quite workable and am pleased with it. Have fun with the final setup and keep us posted as to progress!:) :cool:

[Michael Gabbay]

I like this layout. If you want, you could always move the assembly table a little to the southeast and give yourself a little more room.

Are you going to have a drop near the workbench? I find that helpful for attaching sanders and general cleanup.

Mike

[Jim Becker]

I like this one, Larry. The one thing I'd play with would be having the feed directions opposite on the J & P...it can sometimes be quite convenient.

[Larry Browning]

Larry, I like this latest layout the best.

You never replied to my recommnedation that the jointer should be on a mobile base in order to give you flexibility. Is there some reason that you don't like such mobile bases? In my experience, good bases are hassle-free.

Looking at your layout again, I would also put a mobile base under your bandsaw.
Frank,
One of the reasons I built my shop so large was that I would not need mobile bases. I had always had my shop in the garage with things on mobile bases and I hated having to take the time to set everything up, and then just a few hours later put everything back in it's place. I longed for a place that I could setup the tools and LEAVE THEM THERE. Plus, I think that I can achieve better dust collection by not having flex hose and attaching the ducting directly to the machine. I decided to leave the planer on a mobile base so that I can move it away from the jointer for maintenance. I am planning on bolting the jointer to the floor. But mostly, it is just a psychological thing with me. This is my hobby, my shop. I have always said that if we can afford it, we should do exactly what we want to, without having to justify what we WANT by saying it's what we NEED. I don't NEED any of this, I WANT it. I have been in this situation where I can afford a few things that I want for only a few years and I am enjoying it. And what I WANT is a shop where I can bolt things to the floor. Sorry for the rant, I hope I didn't offend you, that was not my intention, but you asked.

Larry

[Bill Lewis]

I like this one, Larry. The one thing I'd play with would be having the feed directions opposite on the J & P...it can sometimes be quite convenient.
Wow, my thoughts exactly.
What Jim is saying is that since these tools are often used in conjuntion with one another it's easier to come off one and right around to the other without having to "back up". It was the first thing I picked up on in this layout.

[Jeff Sudmeier]

This really looks like a great set up! The other ones just didn't seem to flow well. This set up seems like it would be the best for you!

In my shop my Planer and jointer are not near one another. For this reason, the flow of materials is a little off at times. With your shop, they should flow nicely!

[Jim Becker]

No harm in bolting things down, Larry. Do consider using machine mounts, however, to cushion from vibration and don't do it until you are absolutely sure you have things exatly the way you want them. It's a pain in the butt to remove those fasteners from a concrete floor...as I found out two weeks ago when I relocated my compressor.

Also, measure the "traffic lanes" before you finalize and bolt down to be sure you can accomodate very large projects/tool movement (aquisitions... ;) ) in the future.

[Larry Browning]

Jim,
I am planning on using some cardboard boxes to represent the various tools before I actually move them. Plus. I have a wooden plywood floor with crawl space. So bolting things down is not really a problem. However, I am also planning on running the ducting to the TS, Jointer, and maybe the virtual BS under the floor. So I had better get things where I want them before cutting a big 6" hole in the floor. But, I will be discussing the ductwork design with Oneida and will pretty much follow their recommendations.
I really don't want to turn around the jointer because I would have to walk around to the other side of it coming from the TS, and turning around the planer would mean a longer walk from the lumber rack. What to do, what to do????? :confused: What would you do?
I am leaning toward turning around the planer, because I don't us it as much as the jointer. Plus, I just now realized that the power switch is on the lower left side of the infeed on the planer, so by turning it around it would then be accessable.

Larry

[Jim Becker]

I am planning on using some cardboard boxes to represent the various tools before I actually move them. Plus. I have a wooden plywood floor with crawl space. So bolting things down is not really a problem.

Excellent! (Both the boxes to help figure things out and the wood floor! I'm jealous!!!!)



However, I am also planning on running the ducting to the TS, Jointer, and maybe the virtual BS under the floor. So I had better get things where I want them before cutting a big 6" hole in the floor. I really don't want to turn around the jointer because I would have to walk around to the other side of it coming from the TS, and turning around the planer would mean a longer walk from the lumber rack. What to do, what to do????? What would you do?

You need to arrange this so that it accomodates you best for the way you work. I don't tend to visit the lumber rack during planing sessions since I pull all the material at once and batch process most of the time. I face joint, thickness, edge joint and then rip in that order so the rack location doesn't matter. But that's how I work. Your needs may be different.

[Larry Browning]

I think this is it!!
I tweeked the placement of the jointer and planer and added feed direction indicators. I think the next step will be to simulate this arrangement with boxes and whatever I can find. I should be able to tell how things are going to work. I am sure there will be a little more tweeking here and there. I will try to take pictures of my progress. However, I think the very next thing I should do is clean up the scrap wood pile over in the top left corner by the lumber rack (not represented in the drawing) I will get a couple plastic 55gal drums for my cutoff bins. Which should go a long way in organizing that mess.

Anyway, I want to thank everyone who has contributed to this thread so far. I think it has been both informative and entertaining. I know I could not have come up with this layout on my own.

Larry

[Frank Pellow]

Frank,
One of the reasons I built my shop so large was that I would not need mobile bases. I had always had my shop in the garage with things on mobile bases and I hated having to take the time to set everything up, and then just a few hours later put everything back in it's place. I longed for a place that I could setup the tools and LEAVE THEM THERE. Plus, I think that I can achieve better dust collection by not having flex hose and attaching the ducting directly to the machine. I decided to leave the planer on a mobile base so that I can move it away from the jointer for maintenance. I am planning on bolting the jointer to the floor. But mostly, it is just a psychological thing with me. This is my hobby, my shop. I have always said that if we can afford it, we should do exactly what we want to, without having to justify what we WANT by saying it's what we NEED. I don't NEED any of this, I WANT it. I have been in this situation where I can afford a few things that I want for only a few years and I am enjoying it. And what I WANT is a shop where I can bolt things to the floor. Sorry for the rant, I hope I didn't offend you, that was not my intention, but you asked.

Larry
Thanks for the explanation Larry and, of course, there is no offence taken.

It's good that you have the confidence to know that your machines are going to permanently placed the way the you want them. Even, if I had your space, I would not have your confidence.

[John Miliunas]

Larry, I concur! Me thinks you may have the most efficient layout for your particular situation. Looks GREAT!:) And, most importantly, you still have plenty of room for....for......Well, you know: More tools!:D :D :) :cool:

[Harvey Chute]

Larry,
Your latest design incorporates a lot of collective wisdom from this group. Would you mind if I posted your shop plan as an example layout - - to make it available for other woodworkers who use Visio? To do so I would need the Visio file.
(I hope this isn't breaking any forum rules of etiquette.)
Thanks for launching an interesting thread for those of us interested in shop layout (which seems to be all of us, right!??!!)
- Harvey

[markgoodall]

Where did you get the woodworking / machinery images from.

I use Visio alot, but for network diagramming, etc. I've never thought about using it like this for workshop layout. Good idea.

[Harvey Chute]

You can download the woodworking Visio stencils from http://home.comcast.net/~hchute/woodshop_visio.htm- Harvey