Has anybody any experience with "Okoume" and is it a Mahogany? (A short story)

[Mark Kay]

Does anybody have any experience with "Okoume" or Gaboon, and is it a Mahogany?

My neighborhood deep-discount lumberyard doesn't do much in hardwoods, especially rough stock--they usually sell finished/s4s lumber. What caught my eye was "mahogany" that was only available as 1x6 and lengths 12-13 feet long or more. They also sell "3/4" mahogany" plywood at really low prices, so a few months ago when I went to get some baltic birch ply, I bought a sheet of 3/4" mahogany as well as one mahogany board.

The board seems to have a course grain (to the touch, not really as much to the eye, and the edge almost gave me a sliver) and when I compared it to an article about the different mahoganies in a major woodworking magazine, with pictures like from a deck of cards (mostly kings & queens), it looked the most like "Honduran" Mahogany. The article also had Cuban Mahogany, Khaya African Mahogany, and a couple others I think. I have also read that Luan/Lauan is called Phillipine Mahogany. My only experience wit it was in the metric form of 1/4" plywood and it was brown, closer to walnut color than, say, cherry or maple colors.

When I got the 3/4 mahogany sheet inside, I stood it up with the Baltic sheets. It had a pinkish, reddish color to it, and when I touched it, it felt like it was prefinished or presanded. When I looed at the other side, it had a few football plugs, and some type of tan-pink filler near an edge, like the sheet was in an accident, so I took it back and picked out a replacement myself that had no damage nor any plugs on either side.

Back to the 1x6, it has a straight grain and completely clear. Because of doing a kitchen and undecided on species, I e-mailed the place and asked what sizes & how many they had and what species are they selling in case they run out... he replied:

HI, THANKS FOR YOUR INQUIRY.... THE 1 X 6 MAHOGANY WE CURRENTLY STOCK IS IMPORTED BRAZILIAN OKEME SPECIES... IN 12' AND 13' LENGTHS ONLY @2.30 PER LIN. FT. THANKS, JOE
......................................

So I know Brazil is in South America and that mahogany should be a "genuine" mahogany, but I couldn't really find much on that name on the internet. I also know that that comes out to about $4.60/board foot. So I e-mailed him back:

"Can you tell me the Latin scientific name of your mahogany? I can't find any info on Brazilian okeme. I hope this isn't lauan which is sometimes called Philippine mahogany. I bought both boards and plywood."
......................................

The next day I got this reply:

HI MARK, WHEN DID YOU BUY THIS AND WHAT LENGTHS DID YOU BUY? PLEASE GIVE US YOUR DOCUMENT # AND DATE OF PURCHASE SO I CAN RESEARCH THE SPECIES YOU PICKED UP. THANKS, JOE

......................................

So I told him and got a reply from the owner:

"Hello Mark, i think the board u purchases maybe from the Aucoumea-Klaineana family it hard to pin point the link below may help"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aucoumea_klaineana (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aucoumea_klaineana)
......................................


I think other common names are Okoume and Gaboon, if I searched that name. So I asked:

"Are you saying that the plywood you sold me as 3/4 Mahogany is Gaboon, or the 1x6x12 you sold me as Mahogany is Gaboon? Or both?"
......................................


The owner replied back:

"you can not sell philippian mahogany - the family of trees are all called mahogany but we never sell real Mahogany only lumber & plywood from the same family of trees - you can sell philippian mahogany in the USA"
......................................


I think he got his facts or countries wrong, or both. Actually the reply is confusing, like two no's... can not can's.

So I sent him a long reply, hope it's correct:

I need you to explain that to me better. Phillipian mahogany is "fake" mahogany, or Luan/Lauan. Real or true Mahogany is from central & south America, including Brazil where it was overharvested. "Real" Mahogany is available for sale everywhere in the USA I believe, it just costs more.

Here's a good explanation of the mahogany confusion, there are only 2 real species plus an African relative from a different genus:

http://www.hobbithouseinc.com/personal/woodpics/mahogany,%20genuine.htm (http://www.hobbithouseinc.com/personal/woodpics/mahogany,%20genuine.htm)

It was found here, http://www.hobbithouseinc.com/personal/woodpics/#letterM (http://www.hobbithouseinc.com/personal/woodpics/#letterM)

which shows hundreds of woods, including:

mahogany, african (228/174/67) with fact sheet

http://www.hobbithouseinc.com/personal/woodpics/_thumbs/mahogany,%20central%20american%20thumb.jpg (http://www.hobbithouseinc.com/personal/woodpics/mahogany,%20central%20american.htm)
mahogany, central american (10/8/2)

http://www.hobbithouseinc.com/personal/woodpics/_thumbs/mahogany,%20cuban%20thumb.jpg (http://www.hobbithouseinc.com/personal/woodpics/mahogany,%20cuban.htm)
mahogany, cuban (20/13/1)

http://www.hobbithouseinc.com/personal/woodpics/_thumbs/mahogany,%20genuine%20thumb.jpg (http://www.hobbithouseinc.com/personal/woodpics/mahogany,%20genuine.htm)
mahogany, genuine (46/41/26)

http://www.hobbithouseinc.com/personal/woodpics/_thumbs/mahogany,%20honduran%20thumb.jpg (http://www.hobbithouseinc.com/personal/woodpics/mahogany,%20honduran.htm)
mahogany, honduran (134/110/52)

http://www.hobbithouseinc.com/personal/woodpics/_thumbs/mahogany,%20misc%20thumb.jpg (http://www.hobbithouseinc.com/personal/woodpics/mahogany,%20misc.htm)
mahogany, misc (173/76/13)

http://www.hobbithouseinc.com/personal/woodpics/_thumbs/mahogany,%20philippine%20thumb.jpg (http://www.hobbithouseinc.com/personal/woodpics/mahogany,%20philippine.htm)
mahogany, philippine (77/62/44)

mahogany, royal --- see tambran, wild

http://www.hobbithouseinc.com/personal/woodpics/_thumbs/mahogany,%20santos%20thumb.jpg (http://www.hobbithouseinc.com/personal/woodpics/mahogany,%20santos.htm)
mahogany, santos (65/51/39)

http://www.hobbithouseinc.com/personal/woodpics/_thumbs/mahogany,%20south%20american%20thumb.jpg (http://www.hobbithouseinc.com/personal/woodpics/mahogany,%20south%20american.htm)
mahogany, south american (40/23/11)

and

http://www.hobbithouseinc.com/personal/woodpics/_thumbs/gaboon%20thumb.jpg (http://www.hobbithouseinc.com/personal/woodpics/gaboon.htm)
gaboon (54/31/10) with fact sheet


I still would like to know a definite answer to what I have that was sold as 1x6x13ft mahogany and 3/4" mahogany plywood. My family and friends & neighbors have been buying from you since the 1960's and know you will make good on these problems. I actually am looking to buy 100 board feet of something--hickory, hard maple, mahogany--but I can't afford to be eating $28 1x6's nor $40 plywood sheets."

......................................

So guess what his reply was? Yeah, that's right, he didn't reply.

HAS ANYBODY HERE USED THIS AND IF SO CAN YOU ADD ANYTHING ELSE ABOUT IT, AS WELL AS WHAT I SHOULD DO? AND IS THE PLYWOOD LAUAN OR GABOON OR OKOUME? (WHICH I HEARD IS PRIZED FOR BOATBUILDING, but I'm only doing a kitchen...)

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Mark, you lost me. I don't quite know what you are asking us, and the lumber guy probably doesn't either. Bottom line, the "true" mahogany, Swietenia mahagoni (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swietenia_mahagoni) is rare and very expensive. Do you like the boards you bought? If so, who cares what they are, just use them.

[Mel Fulks]

While I would probably keep the wood instead of returning it ,you are owed an answer as to what the true (Latin name)species is .Without that you have no way to determine what it's uses are and compare that dealer's price with others. If it is not Swetenia mahogani or Swetenia macro phyla ,it is not a true mahogany. There are a number of woods that ,once finished,can fool experts as to what they are. That does not mean they will perform the same way as the genuine stuff.

[Wade Lippman]

I have used okoume marine plywood. AFAIK that is the only way it is available. It is an African wood that has nothing at all to do with mahogany. It is used in boats because it is very light and reasonably strong; however it has no resistance to rotting like mahogany.
I am not really sure what you are asking, but I hope this helps.

[Mark Kay]

Mark, you lost me. I don't quite know what you are asking us, and the lumber guy probably doesn't either. Bottom line, the "true" mahogany, Swietenia mahagoni (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swietenia_mahagoni) is rare and very expensive. Do you like the boards you bought? If so, who cares what they are, just use them.

Thanks Steve... I liked the board for its straight grain and no knots anywhere. But my lumberyard guy says they had 12 twelve footers left. And since I didn't get a reply back, I don't know if the well dried up. I guess my concern is, if I start a kitchen redo with this and run out and need more, maybe I'll be stuck. And I still would like opinions on it from anybody that may have used it to make me think more about taking that risk. If you click on that last pic, of Gaboon, it will take you to that other site and the very first board pictured looks really close to this board.

By the way, that article I referred to, I had it handy and asked a girl, someone who helps clean my house and knows nothing about lumber, to look at the board and look at the pictures in the article and tell me which one it looked like, she pointed to the Honduran Mahogany, Swietenia macrophylla. I said "You sure it's not THIS one?" pointing to the African Mahogany (Khaya ivorensis) and she said "No, it's definitely this one!" pointing to the Honduran.

I'm still concerned about the plywood too, knowing what it really is. It's not the same color as the board, but it is, at the least, sanded already, if not finished.

P.S. The article was titled, "Mahogany: Wood of Kings" followed by, "Will the real mahogany please stand up?"

The article is in Wood Magazine, Issue #212, July 2012.

[Mark Kay]

I have used okoume marine plywood. AFAIK that is the only way it is available. It is an African wood that has nothing at all to do with mahogany. It is used in boats because it is very light and reasonably strong; however it has no resistance to rotting like mahogany.
I am not really sure what you are asking, but I hope this helps.

Wade, did it look pinkish? Does it work like any hardwood plywood? (sawing, drilling) And what is the matching hardwood?

What's your opinion on using it for cabinetry, specifically kitchen cabinets?

What methods do you use to finish it, and is it durable?

Thanks for any info. By the way, where are you, and did you use it for boatbuilding?

[Mark Kay]

While I would probably keep the wood instead of returning it ,you are owed an answer as to what the true (Latin name)species is .Without that you have no way to determine what it's uses are and compare that dealer's price with others. If it is not Swetenia mahogani or Swetenia macro phyla ,it is not a true mahogany. There are a number of woods that ,once finished,can fool experts as to what they are. That does not mean they will perform the same way as the genuine stuff.

Mel, thanks. What's upsetting is that I bought it because it was supposed to be a mahogany... plus I had them cut the board in half because I only needed shorts, not to mention it was easier to fit in the truck if cut. Of course, it would have been nice to see them take it back--that's false advertising if it's not a mahogany--"Cape Lomez Mahogany" or "Gaboon Mahogany" don't count! By cutting it, it made it non-returnable, of course they were "out of stock" on 8-, 9-, and 10-footers! Why couldn't they cut 16's in half to sell 8's? Maybe they shouldn't be selling non-mahogany...

[Wade Lippman]

Wade, did it look pinkish? Does it work like any hardwood plywood? (sawing, drilling) And what is the matching hardwood?

What's your opinion on using it for cabinetry, specifically kitchen cabinets?

What methods do you use to finish it, and is it durable?

Thanks for any info. By the way, where are you, and did you use it for boatbuilding?

Yes, it was slightly pinkish. I put a penetrating epoxy over it, and then painted it with marine paint because it was for a boat. (upstate NY)
While it is a wonderful material for what it is, I wouldn't consider using it for anything where weight wasn't the most important quality. It is pretty soft and not terribly attactive. It is not at all suitable for kitchen cabinets, unless you will be painting them; and then it is way way too expensive.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Mark, in the very little experience I have with "mahogany", one thing has stuck out. Buy all the boards you need at once, the next shipment may look different. I suspect you have illustrated the problem, there are just too many species marketed as mahogany. I really doubt anybody even knows what kind of a tree they are processing beyond the first guys that cut it down. Once it gets in the supply line, forget about it. I'd bet that the local lumber guy ordered mahogany from his supplier, and got one of the ones you posted. Next time it will probably be a different one, and most people never even notice.

One of my past houses had "mahogany" trim. I'm pretty sure there were at least 4 different species there. Check out the borgs trim and doors next time you are there. It's kind of funny.

[Mark Kay]

Yes, it was slightly pinkish. I put a penetrating epoxy over it, and then painted it with marine paint because it was for a boat. (upstate NY)
While it is a wonderful material for what it is, I wouldn't consider using it for anything where weight wasn't the most important quality. It is pretty soft and not terribly attactive. It is not at all suitable for kitchen cabinets, unless you will be painting them; and then it is way way too expensive.

Thanks Wade. I wasn't planning on painting it if I used it, but my plans were filling the pores (you do that on real mahogany, right?) and probably clearing it, but if you think it shouldn't be used for kitchen cabinets, then maybe I'd pick something else, but this was one of the lower costing plywoods they had at that time--about $35 for 3/4"! They listed it as "3/4" 4x8 MAHOGANY G2S, cabinet grade smooth two faces." By contrast, 3/4" birch is $1 less, and maple is about $25 more. They also sell 3/4" 4x8 MARINE AB PLYWOOD (http://www.lencobuffalo.com/product-p/p34ma.htm)marine grade smooth two faces for about $35 more. This confuses things even more if they sell a marine grade ply.

[Wade Lippman]

but this was one of the lower costing plywoods they had at that time--about $35 for 3/4"! They listed it as "3/4" 4x8 MAHOGANY G2S, cabinet grade smooth two faces."
In that case you might make some money off this, as okoume is expensive.
Weigh a piece and compare it to okoume and to birch plywood. That should tell you whether or not it is okoume, as okoume is significantly lighter than birch.
If it is heavy, it is probably luan or Philippine mahogany. That can be pink, or purple, or yellow; as it is pretty much any wood found in the Philippines.

[Richard Coers]

Upsetting? You thought you would get a good mahogany for less than $5 bd ft. and good plywood for less than $50? Those prices got you good materials in 1980, not 2013. Wood coming out of the rain forest, handled by many companies, has always been labeled just about what they want to label it. Stuff like Brazilian Cherry, Peruvian Walnut, etc.....No oversite, no study of species, etc.... They have basically used some species to extinction, so the idea of getting wood labeled like domestic hardwoods, with repeating shipments of those exact species is expecting too much. There was wood coming from Peru for a while to Woodcraft. They just made up names for it since it had no commercial application and no one labeled it accurately. They even called one of them Dalmation! Also for your concern of running out of material, buy at least 25 to 35% extra. And since you are new to this work, maybe even 50%. The chance that you never make a miscut is pretty slim. No one buys the exact number of boards like the magazines tell you to do with their cut lists. If you have material left over, put it on Craigslist or donate it to a local Restore for Habitat for Humanity.


Mel, thanks. What's upsetting is that I bought it because it was supposed to be a mahogany... plus I had them cut the board in half because I only needed shorts, not to mention it was easier to fit in the truck if cut. Of course, it would have been nice to see them take it back--that's false advertising if it's not a mahogany--"Cape Lomez Mahogany" or "Gaboon Mahogany" don't count! By cutting it, it made it non-returnable, of course they were "out of stock" on 8-, 9-, and 10-footers! Why couldn't they cut 16's in half to sell 8's? Maybe they shouldn't be selling non-mahogany...

[Mel Fulks]

Because real mahogany has ,for the most part,always been expensive there have always been counterfeits .That means it is best to deal with a reputable dealer and insist that the Latin name is on the bill. For some things the substitutes are fine,if you are paying for substitutes.

[Mel Fulks]

Mark, just saw your post.Glad to help. The lumber industry is full of all kinds of misrepresentations. Some don't matter much and you get used to them after a while.Western Red Cedar is not a cedar ,but since the wood is pretty durable people just don't much care. Next purchase just do some brief research and you will be ready for 'em. Refusing to sell 16 footers for 8 footers is just standard practice as the 8 footers are allowed more grade defects and are often sold for a lower board foot price.
.

[Wade Lippman]

There was wood coming from Peru for a while to Woodcraft. They just made up names for it since it had no commercial application and no one labeled it accurately. .

That doesn't make it bad. A few years ago I bought a bunch of viraro for less than the price of red oak because no one had ever heard of it so no one would buy it. It is a great wood, similar to african mahogany but more colorful.

[Mark Kay]

Upsetting? You thought you would get a good mahogany for less than $5 bd ft. and good plywood for less than $50? Those prices got you good materials in 1980, not 2013. Wood coming out of the rain forest, handled by many companies, has always been labeled just about what they want to label it. Stuff like Brazilian Cherry, Peruvian Walnut, etc.....No oversite, no study of species, etc.... They have basically used some species to extinction, so the idea of getting wood labeled like domestic hardwoods, with repeating shipments of those exact species is expecting too much. There was wood coming from Peru for a while to Woodcraft. They just made up names for it since it had no commercial application and no one labeled it accurately. They even called one of them Dalmation! Also for your concern of running out of material, buy at least 25 to 35% extra. And since you are new to this work, maybe even 50%. The chance that you never make a miscut is pretty slim. No one buys the exact number of boards like the magazines tell you to do with their cut lists. If you have material left over, put it on Craigslist or donate it to a local Restore for Habitat for Humanity.

Richard, this place has the lowest prices in town, make that the county, maybe the state, so yeah, I was expecting a good mahogany for <$5/BF from them--I know many don't consider African mahogany a true mahogany because it's not a Swetenia, but it is of the same Meliaceae family order (mahoganies), and khaya can be bought for $5-$6 per board foot--plus I'd expect even lower prices from them. Likewise for Sapele, of the same family order. Also, you don't see your lumber before paying for it, but if it were khaya or Sapele for $4.59/BF, I'd probably be happy.

[Mark Kay]

Just to clear up some price "expectations", a different dealer had the following prices:

GENUINE Mahogany $6.90
African Mahogany $4.75
Sapele $5.25
Padauk $6.00

I didn't compare these to anybody else's prices, so it's not impossible to find some type of so-called mahogany or similar African pseudo-something for around $5.