Model dovetail saw handle

[Jeff Wittrock]

I've been wanting to make a dovetail saw for some time and have been playing around lately. This is a practice handle saw handle and a first attempt at making a closed handle.
Since it was just for practice I made it from a scrap of unknown hardwood and left undone since I'm still playing with it. This gives me a handle to try out for a while (once I actually put teeth on the thing) to see how I like the hang angle and size.

It's a bit rough, but just wanted some impressions on the shape. I started with a template for a groves backsaw and scaled back some of the dimensions (not the handle itself) to lighten it up a bit. I'm wondering if the handle looks a bit heavy for a dovetail saw, but have to admit I love the appearance of closed handles.

A few things I already know will probably change
1. The vertical part of the lambs tongue is probably to thin in the center (it cracked).
2. Need to look at some more good examples of lambs tongue since I'm not sure I really have the idea.
3. The inletting of the back to the handle needs more careful attention. I didn't have a small enough chisel for this and the fit isn't so good.
4. Not sure I like the little quarter radius I did at the point that the end of the back meets the handle.
5. Don't really like where I clipped the heel at 45 deg. Seemed like the thing to do at the time, but I think I overdid it.

Much of this is subjective of course, and the real test is how it will work for me, but with little experience making saw handles, I'm interest in constructive critique.
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Thanks,
Jeff

[george wilson]

It looks like a very nice job! I would lengthen the angular area at the top end of the saw back,if possible,in order to make that long swoop on the top of the handle shorter. Good sculpting work.

You can go to the FAQ section here and see a similar Groves handle I did if you wish. I think Groves handles are very beautiful,especially the closed ones.

[Ron Bontz]

+1 what George said. :)

[Jim Koepke]

It looks pretty good.

The great part about making a prototype is you can see what you like and what you don't like. I did this with my first saw handle to make sure of the hang angle and the fit. It felt tight in places, so my second handle was opened up where my prototype felt "pinchy." The result was a saw that is a joy for me to use.

One of these days my plan is to make a few more back saws. Maybe in the next year or two all my apple will be dry enough to make some more handles.

jtk

[Kees Heiden]

Since you ask for critique, I won't hold back. ;) Overall you did an admirable job.

I would make A longer. And I don't like that large curve at B. And I think the handle is way too big for such a small saw.

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[Chris Griggs]

I like it a lot. I agree with Kees assessment of lengthening A and shortening B, or maybe even just adjusting B a bit - that's just my personal taste though, its not a requirement. Otherwise the shape is very pleasing and the sculpting is fantastic. I actually really like the somewhat oversized closed handle look in dovetail saws. Some of the old disstons had those proportions and for whatever reason I like them.

[george wilson]

Kee's illustration was exactly what I was trying to describe. The rest of the handle looks great. Yes,it could use a larger,deeper blade.

[Brian Thornock]

I think it looks really good. I have a half-done backsaw handle waiting for me to finish up. My one suggestion (and it may prove totally invalid) is perhaps to open up the hang angle. It looks a little vertical too me, but then again, I've only got one dovetail saw at the moment, so nothing to really compare to. And I don't mean drastically changed, just slightly.

[peter gagliardi]

While I agree with the above generally on the proportion, I do think there is nothing wrong with that handle size. I am assuming it fits your hand, not generic. I don't have overly large hands, but I do find a lot of the smaller purpose type saws to have inadequate sizing for me. Nice job!

[Adam Cruea]

Looks good!

I don't think the handle is over sized for the saw at all, but I have discovered my hands don't fit well into regular-handles. I'm more about function than form.

[george wilson]

You must allow for filing down the blade,though. It won't be too many resharps before the teeth are down to the handle.

[Jeff Wittrock]

Thanks all for the feedback. Again, not having much experience, it is invaluable to be able to have feedback from people with experience and good taste (neither of which do I have in abundance of at this time).

Thanks for the diagram Kees, this makes it crystal clear what is being described by You and George. It's kind of funny that the original Groves backsaw template that I was using would have had "A" a bit shorter, and shallowing out this curve was my attempt to lighten the handle up a bit.

It really is fascinating to me that I can take an example from long ago that initially looks like it has arbitrary decisions made on its shape and form, and by playing with it even in very small, subtle ways, I can make it look all wrong :). I don't think there are necessarily absolutes that I have to stick with, but there is something very beautiful in some of these saw handles from the past, and I hope to try and emulate that some day. I agree with you on the Groves handles George. Of all the different closed handle designs I looked at so far, I find the Groves very beautiful and I find the version you made shown in the FAQ to be especially beautiful.

I was worried about the handle kind of "wagging" the plate, and I agree with the handle looking a bit big. Making another saw plate from some 1095 blue spring steel is actually one of the easier parts of this project so I think I will make a deeper plate. Working on the handle takes time, but is the part that I find a lot of fun.

The hard part was making the slit steel back.

A can of wd-40, a hack saw with the set ground off and a piece of 1/4" steel.
Ah... good times... but is there an easier way?
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[george wilson]

Well!!! You had a bit of work,there!! I didn't know you made the blade. For sure I didn't know you hand hacksawed the slit back. That was quite a job,especially since you were limited to very short strokes.

I did not consider your handle "all wrong" at all. It is by far one of the best first attempts I've seen here. You have a good eye,and with just a bit of training,you'll be making beautiful handles. If you could reduce the size of the cheek,the handle would fit your plate better,leaving more room for re sharpening. Actually,the blade really calls for an open style handle so you can make the cheek smaller.

I think one of the saw makers here uses a slitting saw mounted on his drill press. You could clamp a wooden fence to regulate the depth of cut. BUT,I swear,it seems very dangerous,and a great way for you to have a kick back and slit your finger tips. I'd ONLY attempt that with proper push sticks,AND keep your face away from the saw back and wear protective face shields. Personally,I prefer folded backs,but that equipment was left in the toolmaker's shop where I worked for many years.

A folded back could be made with a smooth jawed machinist's vise. I always have to grind the chops smooth. You could anneal a strip of mild steel about 1 1/2" wide and 1/8" or less thick. Scribe a line down the center. Put one end into the vise on the line and bend it some using a hammer and a wood block or block of steel. Shift the saw back to bend the next part,etc. Do this bending by degrees till you have a 90º angle in it. Keep annealing as needed. Once you have a 90 deg. angle,clamp the saw back
in the vise with the edges exactly opposite each other. The V shape should be vertical,like the letter V in the vise jaws,or the back may close more on 1 side. Try closing the vise jaws to bring the bend down smaller and smaller,shifting the back constantly to avoid marring it with the corners of the jaws. With annealing and care,you could eventually close the back till the slit is slightly thinner than your saw blade. Then,file up the saw back polish,etc. Get rid of marks and tap the blade into it. A few drops of Loctite and it will be well held. This sounds drawn out,but I think it is easier than sawing that slit.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Not much to add to what other's have said about the saw, but damn, I don't think I could have pulled off slotting the back that way! Nice job!

[Jeff Wittrock]

Well!!! You had a bit of work,there!! I didn't know you made the blade. For sure I didn't know you hand hacksawed the slit back. That was quite a job,especially since you were limited to very short strokes.

I did not consider your handle "all wrong" at all. It is by far one of the best first attempts I've seen here. You have a good eye,and with just a bit of training,you'll be making beautiful handles. If you could reduce the size of the cheek,the handle would fit your plate better,leaving more room for re sharpening. Actually,the blade really calls for an open style handle so you can make the cheek smaller.

I think one of the saw makers here uses a slitting saw mounted on his drill press. You could clamp a wooden fence to regulate the depth of cut. BUT,I swear,it seems very dangerous,and a great way for you to have a kick back and slit your finger tips. I'd ONLY attempt that with proper push sticks,AND keep your face away from the saw back and wear protective face shields. Personally,I prefer folded backs,but that equipment was left in the toolmaker's shop where I worked for many years.

A folded back could be made with a smooth jawed machinist's vise. I always have to grind the chops smooth. You could anneal a strip of mild steel about 1 1/2" wide and 1/8" or less thick. Scribe a line down the center. Put one end into the vise on the line and bend it some using a hammer and a wood block or block of steel. Shift the saw back to bend the next part,etc. Do this bending by degrees till you have a 90º angle in it. Keep annealing as needed. Once you have a 90 deg. angle,clamp the saw back
in the vise with the edges exactly opposite each other. The V shape should be vertical,like the letter V in the vise jaws,or the back may close more on 1 side. Try closing the vise jaws to bring the bend down smaller and smaller,shifting the back constantly to avoid marring it with the corners of the jaws. With annealing and care,you could eventually close the back till the slit is slightly thinner than your saw blade. Then,file up the saw back polish,etc. Get rid of marks and tap the blade into it. A few drops of Loctite and it will be well held. This sounds drawn out,but I think it is easier than sawing that slit.

Thanks George. I was exaggerating a bit about the handle being "all wrong". But it is interesting to me how small adjustments can make such an impact on appearance and function and as I modify things I start to see why things were the way they were to start with. That's not limited to saw handles either. My paying job is as an embedded software engineer. When picking up a project that someone else has worked on, my first inclination is to find ways to throw out what was done before so I can do it my way only to find it was best left as is.

I thought about trying to use a slitting saw on a drill press, but was afraid of the outcome (to me, not the saw back). I'm afraid the runout on my drill press is bad enough that a 0.020 slitter would end up cutting a 1/16" slot. I even thought about dremel cut-off wheels, but not sure how they would hold up as the slot became deeper. I think you are right about folding a back being easier. With 1/8" thickness there is probably enough material to still square off the top and have a nice 45deg. chamfer on the corners. Thanks for the detailed explanation of folding the back.

Thanks again for all the feedback. I'm learning as I go.

[Kees Heiden]

Bending 1/8" steel is not easy! I did it with 1/8" brass and had to use a hydraulic press at the end to really get the thing flat. Hammering flat ain't easy either. You quickly stretch the metal and create curves. But give it a try. I would choose some thinner material though.

[Jim Matthews]

It would seem the sort of thing a Dremel was built to handle.

Chuck the Dremel and carbide wheel so that it's fixed in place.
Using a "fence" for the steel blank so that it tracks straight, advance the steel to pass under
the turning wheel. The downside would be that sparks will fly and heat will be generated.

If your feedrate and chip size are right, the ejected chip will carry waste heat, and the steel will keep it's temper.
The machinist's page recommend cutting a series of parallel drill holes, then milling.

[Isaac Smith]

I have slotted brass on a drill press. The results were ok, and I may have been able to get better results if I had persisted. I don't know how well it would work with steel, though. I made an adjustable fence that had a hold down so that the spine could not move from side to side or up/down. Again, this was with brass, not steel, which I suspect would be a little more difficult to do. Cutting either material on anything other than a mill, I would be hesitant to use carbide cutters, since it needs a very rigid setup to keep it from shattering.

On the drill press, I didn't have any problems with kick back or catching, but I was not climb cutting, and would certainly never recommend doing it that way if you are feeding the stock by hand.

Nice handle, by the way. And great job on slotting the spine. That shows a lot of persistence and will to get it done. Bet you were happy to get to the bottom of that slot!

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Bending 1/8" steel is not easy! I did it with 1/8" brass and had to use a hydraulic press at the end to really get the thing flat. Hammering flat ain't easy either. You quickly stretch the metal and create curves. But give it a try. I would choose some thinner material though.

Did you anneal the brass when working, Kees? That can help things a lot. There's a reason George suggested it.

[george wilson]

3/32" metal would be fine,actually better for a saw this size. Yes,if you don't anneal the brass,it will most often crack open down the top of the saw back. We annealed ours twice as I think I mentioned. For the large tenon saws,we copied the Kenyons and used 3/16" brass. They were annealed 3 times.

[Kees Heiden]

No I didn't aneal, because I haven't the equipement to heat large parts like that. I got some fine surface cracks, nothing spectacular and easilly removed with sandpaper. I don't know if anealing normal steel would help much, because steel doesn't workharden much.

[george wilson]

Annealing steel will definitely help. We made some early style back saws in the toolmaking program,both with steel backs. the White pattern was one of them. We used "black iron",a low carbon steel that has a black,hot rolled surface on it. We annealed them.

[Kees Heiden]

Okay, I'll keep my mouth shut and will buy a larger burner for the next time. :D

[george wilson]

For many years I used simple means to heat things like plane blades. Saw backs could be heated the same way. 2 MAPP gas torches help. I arranged bricks on a table,laid flat. Behind them,I laid bricks upright to provide a vertical wall to help trap the heat. An object laid in the "corner" can be heated a lot more than one just on a flat surface with no wall behind it. You could certainly get most of a dovetail saw back red hot. Let it get red,then move it and heat the rest of it. Let it cool slowly.

[Jeff Wittrock]

Just an update with another model handle after feedback and after I have had a chance to play around with the first one a bit. I decided to try and salvage the blade and back I already made. I figure I could make a usable saw from these and have a saw I could use for a while to see how I like it.

This handle ended up being quite different but I still wanted to make one with a closed form. As before I have still left it rough while I'm playing around with changes.

Some things that changed.
1. Changed the hang angle. I made it a bit more relaxed in this handle but still not quite so much as seen on most dovetail saws.
2. Reduced the size of the cheeks to try and lighten the saw up without reducing the handle size.
3. Made the curve behind the saw back steeper and shorter.

Doing 1 and 2 above necessitated a pretty long lambs tongue, and it ended up being something more of a "Gene Simmons" tongue.
I have found it quite a bit more comfortable. On the previous handle, I really couldn't rest my index finger along the side of the handle/back. Instead, it would slip over the top of the back which kind of indicated to me that the hang angle was too steep.

Normally I wouldn't use Honduran Rosewood for a practice handle, but this was a piece that had a very different color on one side as compared to the other and I was finding it hard to keep details sharp on some softer woods that I was trying. I love the sharp edges that can be created with a wood like this and a sharp knife or chisel.

I know the hardware isn't as nice as some split nuts, but I just made these from some stock 1/4-24 stainless steel bolts/nuts. I just ground the head of a hex head bolt round, and slotted as narrow as I could with a ground down hack saw blade. I really like the appearance of a narrow slot on the screw heads.

Any feedback/critique is greatly appreciated.

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[Kees Heiden]

Well, you know, when you cut off the lambs tongue, you will have the perfect dovetailsaw....

Of course, in tools I like the traditional shapes. So I let others speak about the newer ones. You did a marvelous job on making the saw and I like these sawnuts too.

[Chris Griggs]

Yeah man. That is really nice. Marvelous saw. Really cool you made all your own parts. I think the saw nuts look quite nice.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Jeff

I like what you have done, but I am biased ... as you will discover.

I have just returned from the Perth LN Tool Event weekend, where I was demonstrating planemaking. I had a number of my tools there, including some of the backsaws I have built. I asked a number of visitors to compare the handles of two of my saws with the handles of the equivalent LN saws. What I was after was not which was "better", but in what way they were different.

The LN saws in question were a dovetail and a 14" tenon saw with a closed handle (as mine is a 14" carcase saw with a closed handle and LN only has a carcase saw with an open handle) ..

http://www.lie-nielsen.com/images/ds_lg.jpg

http://www.lie-nielsen.com/images/tenonsaw.jpg

Here are my two saws. You will notice the similarity of yours ..

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/saws/Joinery%20Saw/2JoinerySaw.jpg

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/saws/Carcase%20Saw/3.jpg

The main difference with the LN is the latter has a central "hump", while ours is more of a triangle. This is my understanding ...

Almost every person I asked said that the LN saws felt heavier. They could not put their finger on why - but a few got it, that is, that the thicker lower end of the handle effectively pushed the hand up into the underside of the horn. This takes the weight of the saw back, and adds more control. Hence the feeling that the saw was lighter and the LN heavier.

One person said that this was the same design intention behind the Colt Peacemaker revolver. I know nothing about guns and nothing about Colts, so others can comment here. It was explained to me that Samuel Colt designed the handle this way to relax the pressure on the trigger finger.

I know that the saw handle came in for some design criticism when I posted it here originally. I've been using these saws for ... what .. 12 or 18 months now (I can't recall), and they really feel more comfortable that the many other more traditional shapes I have.

Kees' comment "...in tools I like the traditional shapes. So I let others speak about the newer ones" is very helpful since it focuses attention on the fact that there are different school of thought. So, what other design ideas are there, and any comments ..?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Palmer]

Beautifully executed work. How do they perform in use?

[Jeff Wittrock]

Thanks all for the feedback. I really appreciate it.



Well, you know, when you cut off the lambs tongue, you will have the perfect dovetailsaw....
I know what you are saying. As I look at different handles (both closed and open) and try to pick out details that I like and discard ones that I don't there is always the danger that what I come up with is something of a mongrel that should never have been. I guess that's the nature of experimenting vs. reproduction and something I struggle with.




...The main difference with the LN is the latter has a central "hump", while ours is more of a triangle. This is my understanding ...

Almost every person I asked said that the LN saws felt heavier. They could not put their finger on why - but a few got it, that is, that the thicker lower end of the handle effectively pushed the hand up into the underside of the horn. This takes the weight of the saw back, and adds more control. Hence the feeling that the saw was lighter and the LN heavier.

One person said that this was the same design intention behind the Colt Peacemaker revolver. I know nothing about guns and nothing about Colts, so others can comment here. It was explained to me that Samuel Colt designed the handle this way to relax the pressure on the trigger finger....
Derek
Thanks for the observations Derek. This is something I had not really thought about. I wonder if it might also have something to do with how far down the handle is primarily contacting your hand as well. In other words, if you imagine the web of your hand and second finger being a fulcrum point and the farther down the handle the other contact point is, the lower pressure it would feel like it was delivering to your hand. The "hump" on the LN being closer to the fulcrum than the lower contact point as on the saw handles you have?
By the way, those are lovely saws you have made.

Thanks again to all for the comments.

[Jeff Wittrock]

Thanks all for the feedback. I really appreciate it.



Well, you know, when you cut off the lambs tongue, you will have the perfect dovetailsaw....
I know what you are saying. As I look at different handles (both closed and open) and try to pick out details that I like and discard ones that I don't there is always the danger that what I come up with is something of a mongrel that should never have been. I guess that's the nature of experimenting vs. reproduction and something I struggle with.




...The main difference with the LN is the latter has a central "hump", while ours is more of a triangle. This is my understanding ...

Almost every person I asked said that the LN saws felt heavier. They could not put their finger on why - but a few got it, that is, that the thicker lower end of the handle effectively pushed the hand up into the underside of the horn. This takes the weight of the saw back, and adds more control. Hence the feeling that the saw was lighter and the LN heavier.

One person said that this was the same design intention behind the Colt Peacemaker revolver. I know nothing about guns and nothing about Colts, so others can comment here. It was explained to me that Samuel Colt designed the handle this way to relax the pressure on the trigger finger....
Derek
Thanks for the observations Derek. This is something I had not really thought about. I wonder if it might also have something to do with how far down the handle is primarily contacting your hand as well. In other words, if you imagine the web of your hand and second finger being a fulcrum point and the farther down the handle the other contact point is, the lower pressure it would feel like it was delivering to your hand. The "hump" on the LN being closer to the fulcrum than the lower contact point as on the saw handles you have?
By the way, those are lovely saws you have made.


Beautifully executed work. How do they perform in use?
I wish I could say how my saw performs at this point, but unfortunately she has no teeth. I guess that reveals my backwards approach to doing things. I'm more worried about making a good handle than a good saw :)

Thanks again to all for the comments.

[Jeff Wittrock]

Finally decided to call it quits with this saw. Filed the teeth at 16tpi and finished the handle with tung oil and wax.
Lots of mistakes, but it is nice to have my first dovetail saw, and I think I learned a few things along the way. Can't ask for much more.

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[Chris Griggs]

A great saw. It's sure to become a favorite.

[george wilson]

Jeff,your handle looks good,but you may find that the long,thin lamb's tongue will get broken when you run the saw too far forward into the wood. Then,you can just convert it into an open handle.

[Russ Webb]

The hard part was making the slit steel back.

A can of wd-40, a hack saw with the set ground off and a piece of 1/4" steel.
Ah... good times... but is there an easier way?
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You have my deepest respect for doing it this way and most importantly for making it work. That was a job I would not tackle and would not do well.

Congrats!