White Oak -- Qtr Sawn, Flat Sawn, Rift Sawn

[George Bokros]

I have a project to do, a curio cabinet for my study and I want to use white oak. I want straight grain so I was thinking quarter sawn was the way to go but I see from some of what I found online quarter sawn has lots of ray flecks, is that true? I think what I probably want is rift sawn but cannot get it in 5/4 from my supplier, only as 4/4. I need 1" finished thickness so 5/4 is a must.

What is the grain like on flat sawn white oak? What is the grain like on quarter sawn white oak?

I need to make my decision by tomorrow morning because I head off to the sawmill at 8:00 tomorrow morning.

Thanks


George

[Dennis Ford]

There are huge differences in appearance between flat sawed white oak and quarter sawed white oak. If you don't like the ray flecks, you might consider ash.

[Jeff Duncan]

Plain sawn is plain ugly....OK just my opinion, but it's your basic everyday cathedral grain look...just in oak:( Quarter sawn and rift sawn both have the grain your looking for. The difference between them is the angle they're cut out of the log, one has a steeper angle than the other. Quarter is going to give you the flecks, while rift will not.....mostly. Since it's only a matter of degrees difference, rift and quarter can intermingle.

good luck,
JeffD

[Mark Wooden]

Rift sawn white oak has straight grain and not much in the way ray flecks. Around here they often mix the quarter and rift sawn so you often have to sort through a unit to get what you need, I spent about two hours sorting on my last rift white oak project for about 150 bd ft. Call a hardwood supplier and ask if their units are mixed and can you sort it.
Rift veneer is plentiful though.

[glenn bradley]

Flat, rift and quarter sawn:

258944258946258945

[Mel Fulks]

Small qualifier...Some oak has flecks and some does not. The flecks ,if present ,only show when the wood is almost perfectly quarter sawn.

[Peter Quinn]

What does flat sawn look like? That is going to depend on which exact sub species you are getting, where it was grown, and the whims of nature. I'd agree with Jeff, flat sawn white oak is ugly. It can also be beautiful, and everything in between. What most mean by white oak is quercas alba, the true white oak (actually more tan to brown), but there are something like 17 "sub species" that get bundled as white oak, they vary widely in appearance, grain structure, color. And they are always bundled together as one commodity. I've had people that know much more about wood than me pick up a board and say "This is actually chestnut oak, this one is likely X N Such, this is real quercas alba.." I just know it varies a lot. And environment seems to affect it considerably too.

I don't much care for it for furniture. I prefer something with more or less character, like hickory for rustic work, maple or birch for modern things, mahogany for formal objects, walnut for anything. If you want quarter sawn but not fleck you have to sort it in most cases, here in Connecticut its bundled together as one "rift and quartered" group. I like rift for frame members, quartered with fleck for panels, or all rift for more modern work. Some boards can be rift on one face and highly figured on the other, which can make door parts hard to make. Good luck and happy hunting.

PS, watch out for that nasty sap...it hides very effectively in rough sawn lumber but becomes quite evident on the first pass through the planer.

[scott vroom]

Hardwood suppliers often sell "rift and quartered" mixed. I use a lot of rift and often find it mixed in with a unit of quartered. Hopefully when you get to your supplier he'll have a large volume of 5/4 "quartered" from which you may find sufficient rift for your project. I wouldn't call plain sawn "ugly", but it does have that cathedral grain so common in red oak kitchen cabinets.

Good luck!

[Mark Bolton]

Plain sawn is plain ugly

I would agree, you can see it in a link I recently posted in the coping sled thread, but unfortunately at times its what the customer wants. The cathedral grain just gets obnoxious.

I personally hate oak in general regardless of how its sawn. I know it has its place but Oak in my opinion has become kind of passe'. It is still unfortunately a huge seller among the masses.

There are so many other species out there.

[Peter Quinn]

I would agree, you can see it in a link I recently posted in the coping sled thread, but unfortunately at times its what the customer wants. The cathedral grain just gets obnoxious.

I personally hate oak in general regardless of how its sawn. I know it has its place but Oak in my opinion has become kind of passe'. It is still unfortunately a huge seller among the masses.

There are so many other species out there.


It really has its place. Door thresholds? Fine contender. One of the best options we have. Flooring? Looks great, #1 common for rustic wide plank is hard to beat for durable and charm. Wine and whiskey barrels? Not many better options. But for furnishings....its not high on my list either. Battering rams.........yes!

[Mel Fulks]

Well, back in the days of the guilds ,they had the legal right to seize and burn any oak that wasn't quarter cut. Sure beats posting 'I don't like it'...

[Cody Colston]

For straight grain lines, rift sawn is what you want. Unfortunately, "rift sawn" is not a recognized grade so you will probably have to pick it out from the flat sawn or QS stock.

[scott vroom]

It really has its place. Door thresholds? Fine contender. One of the best options we have. Flooring? Looks great, #1 common for rustic wide plank is hard to beat for durable and charm. Wine and whiskey barrels? Not many better options. But for furnishings....its not high on my list either. Battering rams.........yes!

Apparently you've never experienced the beauty of a Gustav Stickley Arts and Crafts piece made with fumed QSWO.

[scott vroom]

I know it has its place but Oak in my opinion has become kind of passe'. It is still unfortunately a huge seller among the masses.

There are so many other species out there.

Why is it unfortunate, Mark?

[Kevin Bourque]

Apparently you've never experienced the beauty of a Gustav Stickley Arts and Crafts piece made with fumed QSWO.

You beat me to it.

[Michael Mayo]

Well I am not the seasoned veteran like many here but I personally like any hardwood and Oak included doesn't matter how it is sawn to me it all looks great. I guess if you work with it every day and Oak is what you see all the time I guess you could become somewhat disillusioned but I still like it all and would take any and all Oak that someone wanted to give me.........:)

[Michael Moscicki]

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?182750-A-few-of-my-recent-projects
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?182557-Brown-Burr-Oak-Davenport&p=1882987#post1882987

Have you considered European Oak or Brown Burr Oak? Roger Berwick made some really nice stuff.

[Mark Bolton]

Why is it unfortunate, Mark?

I should have clarified that its unfortunate for me, simply because Im not a fan. I'm not trying to offend the stickley camp. Its beautiful stuff but that's not the same as what we were talking about. But yes, I said I hate all oak. Hate is a bit harsh as most days I'm doing something with oak, and if there were any oak I wouldn't mind it would be chestnut oak (graded as white oak but much nicer/darker IMO). I just see the stuff (oak) everywhere. It's the new pine. Amish furniture (often some of the cheapest junk I see) is on every corner. All red oak, coarsely sanded, slathered with oil based poly. It goes on and on.

I come from the construction camp where for years oak was an upgrade, and a substantial one at that. Now in the economy oak is nearly the norm. Heck, a lot of double wides come standard with white oak trim (even though its 1/2" thick).

It's of course a matter of personal preference and as I said, if that's what brings in the bacon then keep the fryin' pan on the stove cause Ill keep cookin'

[Scott T Smith]

I have a project to do, a curio cabinet for my study and I want to use white oak. I want straight grain so I was thinking quarter sawn was the way to go but I see from some of what I found online quarter sawn has lots of ray flecks, is that true? I think what I probably want is rift sawn but cannot get it in 5/4 from my supplier, only as 4/4. I need 1" finished thickness so 5/4 is a must.

What is the grain like on flat sawn white oak? What is the grain like on quarter sawn white oak?

I need to make my decision by tomorrow morning because I head off to the sawmill at 8:00 tomorrow morning.

Thanks


George

George, the most descriptive way to tell your supplier what you want is "vertical grain white oak, without significant ray fleck". This is also referred to as "Rift and low-fleck quartersawn". Typically lumber dealers will sort lumber based upon the best face, so if your cabinet requires low figure on both sides be sure that they know you need low fleck on both sides. Many QS boards may display ray fleck on one side, but not the other.

In addition to offering a more pleasing appearance, QSWO is more dimensionally stable than flat sawn oak.

Pure rift sawn lumber is usually defined as boards that have growth rings that are aligned 45 degrees to the face of the board, plus or minus 15 degrees (30 - 60 degrees). Pure quartersawn lumber typically has growth rings that are aligned 90 degrees to the face, plus or minus 30 degrees (60 - 90 degrees).

Ray fleck is revealed when boards are milled so that the medullary rays are parallel to the face of the board. However, medullary rays do not always emanate in a straight line from the center of the log. Frequently they will have a slight curve or arc to them, and so it is not uncommon for a board to have growth rings that are 90 degrees to the face, yet still have little ray fleck showing.

[Joe Cowan]

Scott knows oak.



George, the most descriptive way to tell your supplier what you want is "vertical grain white oak, without significant ray fleck". This is also referred to as "Rift and low-fleck quartersawn". Typically lumber dealers will sort lumber based upon the best face, so if your cabinet requires low figure on both sides be sure that they know you need low fleck on both sides. Many QS boards may display ray fleck on one side, but not the other.

In addition to offering a more pleasing appearance, QSWO is more dimensionally stable than flat sawn oak.

Pure rift sawn lumber is usually defined as boards that have growth rings that are aligned 45 degrees to the face of the board, plus or minus 15 degrees (30 - 60 degrees). Pure quartersawn lumber typically has growth rings that are aligned 90 degrees to the face, plus or minus 30 degrees (60 - 90 degrees).

Ray fleck is revealed when boards are milled so that the medullary rays are parallel to the face of the board. However, medullary rays do not always emanate in a straight line from the center of the log. Frequently they will have a slight curve or arc to them, and so it is not uncommon for a board to have growth rings that are 90 degrees to the face, yet still have little ray fleck showing.

[scott vroom]

George, how did your visit to the mill this morning turn out? Were you able to find the 5/4 RSWO you were looking for?

[Scott T Smith]

Flat, rift and quarter sawn:

258944258946258945


Glenn, great pix! One clarification, the middle board (aka the rift sawn one) is actually quartersawn on the left side, and rift sawn on the right side of the board. QS is technically determined by the orientation of the growth rings to the face of the board, not just the appearance.

[Jeff Duncan]

Some of the descriptions I've read here vary a bit from what I'd been told in the past, so I just googled "rift sawn vs quarter sawn" for the heck of it. For anyone interested look under "images" for the best description/illustration of what's actually happening in the different cuts.....kind of an "Aha" moment;)

JeffD

[glenn bradley]

Glenn, great pix! One clarification, the middle board (aka the rift sawn one) is actually quartersawn on the left side, and rift sawn on the right side of the board. QS is technically determined by the orientation of the growth rings to the face of the board, not just the appearance.

Thanks Scott. I just grabbed some quick pics from an online supplier in an attempt to help the OP ;). I like white oak in its many variations. I can understand those who are inundated with it to the point of becoming jaded. Being a native SoCal boy I experience the same thing with red oak. Every mass produced box-maker in SoCal has a catalog full of red oak pieces; one can get burned out on even a good thing ;-)

[George Bokros]

George, how did your visit to the mill this morning turn out? Were you able to find the 5/4 RSWO you were looking for?

I was able to get 85 bdft of 5/4 RSWO with little ray fleck if any. As some have said they do no cut for rift sawn but sort out the material for 80% or better QSWO and the rest is classed as rift sawn but it is sorted out. They had about 100 bdft of RSWO. This mill is really a great place to do business. RSWO was $4.93 bdft; color sorted FSRO $2.15 bdft and C & better flat sawn sugar pine $4.40 bdft.

I hope I did not make a mistake with the sugar pine, I need it for a cabinet the wife wants, I would rather have had ponderosa pine which I know how that works. We shall see when I get to milling it.

Thanks everyone for all; the help.


George

[Mel Fulks]

Most consider sugar pine superior to ponderosa pine in all respects. In tests for rot resistance it is a proven fact. I think you will like it .

[George Bokros]

Most consider sugar pine superior to ponderosa pine in all respects. In tests for rot resistance it is a proven fact. I think you will like it .

It looks a little funky in the rough state so I was somewhat apprehensive about how it will be once planned to thickness.

Thanks Mel

George

[Kent A Bathurst]

Why is it unfortunate, Mark?


Scott - you and I are nothing more than proles, dude. The huddling masses.

Except, I buy old-growth veneer-log bookmatched flitch boards at up to $20/bf. So, I guess I am an elitist prole - contradiction in terms, eh?

:p :p

And, BTW - the material that has a fair amount of rift in the mix comes about from the method that particular sawmill uses. Others [like my source] use a method that is more time-consuming and has lower yield [and higher priced, of course], and the presence of any rift only comes when I buy some log-run narrows for unimportant components/surfaces. The really good stuff is absolutely QS.

[Scott T Smith]

Some of the descriptions I've read here vary a bit from what I'd been told in the past, so I just googled "rift sawn vs quarter sawn" for the heck of it. For anyone interested look under "images" for the best description/illustration of what's actually happening in the different cuts.....kind of an "Aha" moment;)

JeffD

Jeff, thanks for posting this, as it allows me an opportunity to provide additional information about a subject that I deal with every day.

For starters, there is no, single, industry wide definitionof rift sawn lumber.

If you google "rift sawn versus quartersawn" and look at the images, you will note that there are discrepancies.There are a lot of images that depict "rift sawn" lumber as being perfectly 90 degree grain lumber. Here is an example of what one of these images looks like:

259177


The predominant associations in the US that provide lumber specifications are: The Forest Products Library of the USDA, the national Hardwood Lumber Association (NHLA), and the Architectural Woodwork Institute (AWI) (called AWMAC in Canada). The NHLA and USDA do not have a specification for "rift" sawn lumber - they call it "bastard sawn. QS lumber is also referred to as "edge grain" lumber. AWI DOES have a specification for rift sawn lumber; Here is how the AWI defines rift sawn lumber: "The annual rings of a Rift sawn board will be at an angle of ~30-70 degrees, optimally 45 degrees to the face of the board."

Based upon the guidance provided by the AWI, the above image does not correctly depict rift sawn lumber. If you take a moment to look at every one of the images displayed on the google search that show this incorrect grain orientation, NONE of them are from an organization that is associated with the manufacture of lumber. The image that I pasted above comes from "wisegeek.org". Other's come from "beatingupwind.com",and various other entities that don't know what they are talking about. This image dates back to an editorial mistake that was made in a single lumber manual about 90 years ago, and it just won't go away.

Here is the actual language from Chapter 3, page 14 of the 2010 version of the USDA FPL Wood Handbook:

"In commercial practice, lumber with rings at angles of 0 degrees to 45 degrees to the wide surface is called plainsawn and lumber with rings at angles of 45 degrees to 90 degrees to the wide surface is called quartersawn. Hardwood lumber in which annual rings form angles of 30 degrees to 60 degrees to the wide face is sometimes called bastard sawn."

The AWI designation of Quartersawn lumber differs slightly from the USDA FPL publication, in that AWI specs quartersawn as having growth rings between 60 - 90 degrees to the face of the board.

Here is the actual image from page 22 of the 2003 edition of the AWI/AWMAC 8th edition Quality Standards Handbook that identifies the AWI definition of quarter and rift sawn lumber:

259191


Now, to muddy the waters a little bit further, in Bruce Hoadley's book "Understanding Wood", his definition of rift grain is somewhat different from AWI. His exact words are "[quartersawn] may be applied to pieces in which the growth rings form angles of anywhere from 45 degrees to 90 degrees with the surface. The terms comb grain and rift grain indicates surfaces intermediate between 45 degrees to 90 degrees".

Most lumber producers who specialize in producing quarter and rift sawn lumber use the AWI definition. Additionally, even though the USDA FPL manual does not address a definition of rift sawn lumber, the employees who work there that I correspond with also define rift sawn lumber the same way as the AWI.

[Rich Riddle]

I am building an addition for she who must be obeyed (wife). I used white oak, mostly rift cut, but some quartered as well. You can see the photographs below to see what rift cut (and a bit o quartered) look like. They are 3" wide strips and the shortest length is 6'. For a floor, I like the look. Anyway the floors and window trim are this weekend's project.

259199259200259201259202259203259204

[Rich Riddle]

The wife selected rift and some quartered wood floor based on a few pieces of "ugly" furniture we have to put in the house. Can't claim I made this stuff though, a group called Stickley did. I don't quibble with the wife about beauty since she married me. This is the furniture that goes into the office addition with the couch and bar stools from the great room.

259205259206259207259208259209259210

[Jeff Duncan]

Thanks Scott, it's good to get some clarification on what seemingly should be an easy thing to categorize:) I think for me it's one of those...." I know it when I see it" kind of things, even if I may not be able to define it all that well to someone else. Luckily my local lumber wholesaler is pretty large and so I can call in and have them pull down a pack of rift, or quarter, depending on what I'm doing. But of course there's always some mixing per the "muddy waters".

JeffD