Does a Norton India "wear in" like an Black Arkansas?

[Russell Cook]

Hi all,

I've read that Black Arkansas stones will give finer cutting as the abrasive on the surface becomes rounded/worn. Does the same thing happen with India stones?

My guess is that it does, as both types of stone have a very non-friable structure.

Just thinking about this question, as some guys have told me they have used their Fine Indias for many years without refacing them. These stones would presumably cut a lot finer (and slower) than a brand new one.

Any thoughts?

[David Weaver]

Yes, and the harder they are, the more they wear in. It seems like the older stones that I have from norton are harder than the newer ones. That's not necessarily a blessing like it is with natural stones, because you're not looking for a super fine edge, but if you're looking for a single stone to use it might be.

If you got a brand new fine india, you'd find it to be pretty harsh for a while compared to your stones, raising a much fatter wire edge and probably not giving you what you want if you like what your worn in stones are doing.

[Chris Griggs]

What Dave said. Yes they wear in, but not really in a way that benefits them the way wearing in a hard ark does. Indias are cutting stones IMO, I think they work best when kept refreshed and cleaned. Dave's also right, they are SUPER, aggressive when brand new. Even though I keep rough mine up periodically, it does not return to the harshness (too harsh) it had when it was fresh out of the box.

All that said, I suppose you could let a fine inda wear in to the point where it produced a fine enough edge that you could follow it with a Chromium Oxide based compound. In fact, I have an old india stone I was playing with for a while that I did just that with. As much as I like my fancy water stones, if you know what you are doing you can get a killer edge off of nothing more than a fine india and some compound (lifting the edge slightly to create a true micro bevel when you go to the compound is key)

[Russell Cook]

Cheers gentlemen.

Chris, when you mentioned moving from the fine India to the honing compound, was that compound in a leather strop, or spread on the stone itself? Or something else?

I have a coarse and fine India combo stone, and 1000# and 6000# Sigmas. As a beginner, I really like the Sigmas but am very curious about all kinds of sharpening media and systems.

[Chris Griggs]

Cheers gentlemen.

Chris, when you mentioned moving from the fine India to the honing compound, was that compound in a leather strop, or spread on the stone itself? Or something else?

I have a coarse and fine India combo stone, and 1000# and 6000# Sigmas. As a beginner, I really like the Sigmas but am very curious about all kinds of sharpening media and systems.

It was just on a piece of wood, or MDF, or cardboard. Honestly I can't recall for sure. Making that big a leap isn't the easiest or most foolproof way to get a good edge but it can be done, and its not particularly hard either.

The key is to work as little steal as possible when you get to the compound. You don't create a micro bevel until you go to the compound and you remove it every time you go back to the india. You also want the compound on something firm (e.g. mdf), because unlike following a truly fine stone, you'll need to take a good number of strokes on the compound, enough that a something soft is likely to round over the edge. It does work though, can get you an edge is good or better than the edge off the a high end waterstone and at the end of the day this method would let you get away without anything more than a coarse/fine india and $5 stick of compound and a piece of hardwood or mdf. I still go back to my water stones every time, even though I have a nice set of arks and can make this method work, but it's good to know that its possible to get great results with such a simple and cheap setup. Its worth figuring out how to do, but I doubt you'll prefer it to the sigma 1k 6k, especially comsidering that you can apply the same concept following the 6k and it will be less effort.

[Russell Cook]

Chris, that method sounds very interesting.

I'm getting away from the thread title now (!) but I was hoping to ask a couple more questions:

1) What motion do you use for honing with the compound? Just pull strokes perhaps?
2) Is it possible to hone the micro-bevel without a honing guide In your opinion? I enjoy freehand sharpening.

[Chris Griggs]

Chris, that method sounds very interesting.

I'm getting away from the thread title now (!) but I was hoping to ask a couple more questions:

1) What motion do you use for honing with the compound? Just pull strokes perhaps?
2) Is it possible to hone the micro-bevel without a honing guide In your opinion? I enjoy freehand sharpening.

Mostly pull. Technically, if you have the compound on a hard enough surface you can do push and pull, but pull is a safer bet.

Yes, no guide needed. Just lift a bit from the primary bevel. Its such a small area that a tiny amount of variation will make no difference.

[george wilson]

David,I am pretty sure India stones,and some other man made stones get harder as they age. There is a finite shelf life for bench grinder wheels because of that. And,boy,do I have a pile of OLD,OLD wheels. I wasn't aware of this till recently.

[David Weaver]

George, I figured that might be the case. You just never know what's going to happen to a stone with time until you wait 50 years to find out! Fortunately, time has been kind to most frictionites, but it does appear to render the silcon carbide side of most norton combination stones pretty useless for anything other than tile work once they get old.

Crystolon stones are a pleasure to use for rough work when they're new, but those old ones that glaze over with a shine on the tips of the abrasive after a few tool passes are not quite so much fun.

[Russell Cook]

Hi David,

What does "frictionite" mean? Is it a type of stone bond?

[george wilson]

Frictionite was the brand name of a razor hone made by The American Hone Co.,Moravia,Ohio(hope I recalled it o.k.) I had bought a bunch of these back in the 70's and went to using ceramic stones,so I had several new ones on hand. Got David to sell them for me.

[Russell Cook]

Thanks George.

Do you have any idea why those grindstones and India stones become harder as they age? Is it something to do with the nature of a vitrified bond?

I have to say I'm a bit disheartened at the idea of my India stone becoming senile one day, no matter how far off that day is :-(