Case joinery

[Patrick Bernardo]

Hey all. Yes, I'm a beginner. I was reading Tage Frid's book and came across the line where he says that beginners fret too much over joinery choice. Guilty as charged, I guess. But in searching over the archives, I don't find much discussion of joinery options in case work. Maybe it's too obvious once you've done it a little while. But here's my problem: I'm having trouble finding a good discussion of hand cut joinery options for case work. The books I have, at least, assume that it's either dovetails or machine work. Assuming I don't want to use machines - and I don't - what are the options available, and what are the pros and cons? Is multiple M&T always another option, or are there circumstances when you wouldn't use it? What about cutting some kind of a haunched and stopped dado joint almost like a tongue and groove? I've seen that one, but don't know the proper name for it.

Here's my specific case: I'm making a version of a Byrdcliffe small hanging wall bookshelf/cabinet that was originally published in PW in 1998. While the plans in the magazine call for machine joints, I'd like this to be all hand work. I feel like dovetails would make the sides too busy, as there is a shelf in the design and I'm thinking of using wedged M&T joints on that. Even if I joined the case with half-blind dovetails, when viewed from the side I'd have both the M&T and the dovetails showing. That's a lot of end grain. The dimensions for the case are 18" tall by 37 1/2" wide and about 12" deep. It's just a normal rectangular case. It will hold some books, but this will be a shop cabinet and I'm building it as a learning experience and trial run for some other work I'd like to do.

I'm not sure what the rules are for posting images, but if you do a Google image search for 'Byrdcliffe cabinet', it'll be your first hit. I won't be doing the carving in the small door.

So what would my options be for joining top, sides, and bottom? How would those of you more experienced in this type of hand work decide on the joint?

[Mike Henderson]

For joinery on the top and bottom, you can't beat dovetails for strength. If you don't want them to show on the sides, use half blind dovetails. For the shelf, a dado will be fine.

Mike

[Art Kieres]

It depends on where the weight will be carried... Normally cases are dovetailed with the mechanical "lock" holding the sides to the top/bottom (tails on top/bottom, pins on sides). The problem with this application is that if the books are weighing down the bottom shelf, or if the cabinet is hung off the top, you'll be pulling the joint apart the easy way (down) so the strength of the dovetail will be useless (though it still provides a ton of glue surface area). You could do dovetails in the other orientation (holding the top/bottom to the sides, tails on sides pins on top/bottom). Other options that would show less are dowels, a drawer lock type rabbet/dado arrangement (you mentioned this in your post, very easy with a plow and a moving fillister plane), M&T... All the interior pieces will do fine with simple dados. Multiple wedged M&T's would look lovely but are a ton of work. If meant for practice great, if meant for speed/practicality a bit overkill.

Personally, I would probably go with the rabbet/dado option for a clean look or dovetails for exposed joinery.

Art K

[Jim Koepke]

Even if I joined the case with half-blind dovetails, when viewed from the side I'd have both the M&T and the dovetails showing. That's a lot of end grain.

What is so terribly wrong with end grain? Every board has it at least twice.

Some of us are rather proud of our end grain and will show it freely in public.

The end grain shown on through dovetails can actually be quite impressive.

Here is one way to have a bit of fun with it:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?95360

jtk

[Mike Henderson]

In woodworking, joinery falls into two camps - woodworkers who like to show off the joinery and those who like to hide the joinery. I fall into the "hide the joinery" camp, although I understand the ethic of the other camp and can appreciate work well done with exposed joinery. I'd just prefer to emphasize the beauty of the wood and the overall design than the joinery.

Art pointed this out: With half blind dovetails, you'd prefer to make them so you get the mechanical advantage of the dovetails. But dovetails give you a secondary advantage (which he also pointed out) of lots of glue surface. So you can use half blind dovetails and, as long as you don't go with giant tails, you'll get lots of glue surface to hold the sides and bottom together.

Mike

[Bob Jones]

I think the original question deserves a good book recommendation. What are your favorite sources of in on case joinery? I like any bookby Charles Hayward for this topic.

[Russell Sansom]

For decades I have loved Encyclopedia of Furniture Making by Ernest Joyce.

It is comprehensive, smart, and to the point. Scattered around are bits of good advice with which I have never had a single quibble. ( for instance, "even though it cuts sweetly, don't use a carcass saw for general cut-off duty." Seems obvious in retrospect, but it was helpful advice at the time ) My single complaint is with the dryly-numbered illustrations, often located on previous and following pages. A home copier solves this. I have never found a finer reference.

The Krenov tomes are inspirational and contain some meaningful philosophy about case work. As opposed to the Joyce book, The Krenov-to-information ratio is somewhat high, but that always added to my pleasure in reading them.

[Jim Koepke]

for instance, "even though it cuts sweetly, don't use a carcass saw for general cut-off duty." Seems obvious in retrospect, but it was helpful advice at the time

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Can you explain for those of us who have not yet come to this understanding?

tia

jtk

[Patrick Bernardo]

Jim, I have nothing against end grain, actually. I love nicely cut dovetails (which usually means not mine!). However, it just seems to me that with the two types of joints showing on the side, the cabinet will look 'busy.' It's only 18 inches tall. That was the source of my comment. In this case I was hoping for information on a joint that would hide the joinery. I've been disappointed in the information I've found on that topic. I'd prefer to keep the wedged M&T on the shelf, simply because I want to try the joint.

Book recommendations are great too, though I was hoping to gain a little from reading you guys discuss what joints you'd consider, and why.

Bob, have you seen what books by Charles Hayward are going for at the moment? Luckily the local library system has a couple of copies of his book on joints. So I'll have a look at it.

[Jack Curtis]

If you hang it using a cleat roughly about where the middle shelf runs, you won't have so many forces working against your joinery. Then I'd probably do sliding dovetails for the bottom and top, full length, which will only show on the front in two places per shelf and should be very attractive. Lovely unit, btw.

[Jim Koepke]

do sliding dovetails for the bottom and top, full length, which will only show on the front in two places per shelf and should be very attractive.

Saw a rerun of Roy Underhill making stacking book cases inspired by Thomas Jefferson, iirc. The used a half dovetail. They can also be stopped so the front of the joint doesn't show. He mentioned that the grain direction at the on a full dovetail would be likely to cause a split on the bottom.

If one doesn't want to use through dovetails, a mortice and tenon joint might serve the purpose. (that would be the same as a stopped dado joint.) It wouldn't have to be a through tenon. It could also be multiple tenons. The difficulty would only be if Patrick doesn't have a table saw or rabbet plane to cut the tenon(s).

On wall hanging items like this I include a rail on the bottom for mounting/support. It can be decorative or square. If there is a drawer(s) at the bottom the mounting can be behind the drawers.

jtk

[Russell Sansom]

for instance, "even though it cuts sweetly, don't use a carcass saw for general cut-off duty." Seems obvious in retrospect, but it was helpful advice at the time

Sure, Jim...

The idea was simply that the carcass saw is finely-tuned and carefully-sharpened; much more expensive in sharpening time than a general duty saw. It gets used up and isn't then available for cutting tenons. The still-fresh D-23 can't really substitute. I've come to apply the idea to other tools in my shop. I maintain both a fine and a coarse pair of some planes, for example. Perhaps an interesting discussion for a separate thread some afternoon.

[Jim Koepke]

I maintain both a fine and a coarse pair of some planes, for example. Perhaps an interesting discussion for a separate thread some afternoon.

It has been discussed by some in a few threads.

In my accumulation of four #5s there is coarse, fine and degree of camber.

Some people take the minimalist approach and like to have fewer planes.

My tender senses would feel extremely deprived if I could only have three or four bench planes and a single set of chisels. Even with an accumulation most woodworkers would be overwhelmed in finding a place to keep in their shops, my radar still tingles when my olfactory senses catch a whiff of that ever so pleasing aroma of sweet rust.

jtk

[Bob Jones]

The books I mentioned are all out of print, but cost less than $15 on amazon. Softback are cheaper.

[Jim Matthews]

As a fellow galoot still struggling with hand cut dovetails, let me say two things about them;

They can be very loose, and still glue up solid. My current project has a main carcasse with dovetails at the top and bottom.
It fit square at glue up, but there are gaps large enough to stick a toothpick right through.

It's one of the most solid pieces I've made, to date. It easily supports my substantial bulk.
I finished with some molding around the top, and trim inside, no gaps are evident.

Secondly - I think a fully housed dado is just as strong in this application and MUCH easier to make.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7GL_r9FG2Ak

Not to put you off the dovetail joint, but it is not what I would call elementary.
I've been at this for nearly three years, and still make a hash of them.

[Zach Dillinger]

As you might guess (http://eatoncountywoodworker.blogspot.com/2012/12/we-must-end-eeg-now.html), I'm clearly in the "don't show your end grain camp". I find that it distracts from the overall design of the piece. As our good friend David Weaver says, leaving the dovetails exposed is rather like leaving the waistband of your underpants exposed and calling it a fashion statement.

For an A&C piece like that, I wouldn't have a problem doweling the thing together. Krenov doweled a lot of his cabinets and I don't see a problem with it. Just call it loose tenon joinery if you have something against doweling. :)

If you want the strength of the dovetails without the ugly end grain, you can do a full-blind or miter dovetail. Not all that hard to do, really, since you only have two show surfaces to worry about.

[Mike Cogswell]

Sure, Jim...

The idea was simply that the carcass saw is finely-tuned and carefully-sharpened; much more expensive in sharpening time than a general duty saw. It gets used up and isn't then available for cutting tenons. The still-fresh D-23 can't really substitute. I've come to apply the idea to other tools in my shop. I maintain both a fine and a coarse pair of some planes, for example. Perhaps an interesting discussion for a separate thread some afternoon.

For that reason I now have a set of older D8 panel saws (18, 20 & 22 inch) in different TPI. Very handy sizes and all them put together cost less than my LN carcass saw.
I used the panel saws to learn to sharpen and now use them for a lot of general sawing where I would have used the carcase saw previously.

[Prashun Patel]

Other options are pinned rabbets and locked rabbets, and box joints.

If the dovetails (or box joints) look too busy to you, you can play with their width and spacing to minimize their appearance. You really don't need a whole lot to be strong enough for a small book case.

[David Weaver]

Oh, you're fighting the good fight, Zach!

I like to wear my underwear under my pants, also, and though I don't like to build furniture, if I do, I like it to conform to the same aesthetic.

I was cleaning off one shelf yesterday to move stuff to another, and in a book sorting of "keep it, sell it or throw it away", I came across two arts and crafts books. "Arts and crafts furniture you can build" or something like that. Get rid of that one!

[george wilson]

David,if you wear your underwear on the outside,it's easier to check it.

[David Weaver]

George, I'm going to store that sentence and use it in conversation the next time something arises where I can.

Maybe I'll start it with "confucius say.."

(which was really popular when I was in elementary school...to say before just about anything)

[george wilson]

David,especially if you wear "day of the week" underwear,it is even easier to check,just so you don't get forgetful and sloppy.

[David Weaver]

Well, they make razor sets for days of the week, so why not label the underwear and bundle them with the razors?

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[Zach Dillinger]

David,especially if you wear "day of the week" underwear,it is even easier to check,just so you don't get forgetful and sloppy.

Just make sure you don't make a mistake when getting dressed in the morning. Would be a shame to pull on a fresh pair of Mondays on a Wednesday morning. People might look at you a little funny.

[george wilson]

The downside to wearing shorts outside is it makes it more difficult to get out your LV pocket plane. Then,you are forced to wear a shop apron,which sort of negates the fashion statement you're trying to make with outside shorts. Oh,the misery of it all.:(

David,Thursday must have been the former owner's roughest shaving day.

[george wilson]

I have decided to just go in a different fashion statement direction,and wear 6 watches on my wrist. I might could wear a "slave bracelet" watch on 1 ankle,too.

[Zach Dillinger]

I have decided to just go in a different fashion statement direction,and wear 6 watches on my wrist. I might could wear a "slave bracelet" watch on 1 ankle,too.

So what is the joinery equivalent of all that?

[David Weaver]

The downside to wearing shorts outside is it makes it more difficult to get out your LV pocket plane. Then,you are forced to wear a shop apron,which sort of negates the fashion statement you're trying to make with outside shorts. Oh,the misery of it all.:(

David,Thursday must have been the former owner's roughest shaving day.

George, what makes you say that? The rust on the top? That's, of course, not my 7 day set. Full sets go for a price that doesn't make sense for someone who actually wants to use them to shave.

[george wilson]

Zach,the important joinery connection to wearing 6 watches on your wrist is that it helps reinforce your wrist while using your now accessible LV apron plane.:)

[Zach Dillinger]

Aha! Sort of like a bio-mechanical jig to force you to hold the plane in the proper way? Brilliant! And multi-functional as well. Now if I need to know what time it is in Istanbul while planing with the apron plane, I don't have to stop. All that stopping changes the angle at which I plane and that introduces error. The watches make my wrist angle repeatable! Do you have a preferred brand of wristwatch? What angle do you set the face at on your wrist? Is there a jig to make the face angle jig repeatable?

[george wilson]

Believe it or not,wearing multiple wrist watches as fashion was done by a few back in the 80's.

[Zach Dillinger]

I vaguely remember the 80s. I was born in 1983, so I must have just missed out on the multiple watch fad. But I do remember the 90s, when "sagging" your pants and showing off your underpants was de rigueur.

[george wilson]

Still is,isn't it? WHY is it COOL to look like you're in jail? For the same reason it is COOL to not learn a thing in school. If you do,you are labeled a nerd,or something else. How hard do humans try to hold back evolution? Pretty hard on several counts.

It's COOL because it its an excellent reason to be lazy. I'll bet they think they're cool when having a career flipping burgers!!!

[Jack Curtis]

Still is,isn't it? WHY is it COOL to look like you're in jail? For the same reason it is COOL to not learn a thing in school. If you do,you are labeled a nerd,or something else. How hard do humans try to hold back evolution? Pretty hard on several counts.

It's COOL because it its an excellent reason to be lazy. I'll bet they think they're cool when having a career flipping burgers!!!

That's not it at all. When I first started working out of college, in software development, all us underlings spent most of our days pretending not to work, most of our nights were spent partying with each other (OK, there were about 20 newly graduated kids in one office). But the idea was that when we turned in something and it worked perfectly, we could pretend that it was natural acumen, not hard work, we never had to work hard given our brilliance. Not.

[David Weaver]

That MO still exists today. Different generation, but the same "oh, i didn't have to work as hard as you do" torpedoing is still around.

[Patrick Bernardo]

None of this is doing anything to disabuse me of the notion that woodworkers don't like to discuss case joinery.

[Zach Dillinger]

None of this is doing anything to disabuse me of the notion that woodworkers don't like to discuss case joinery.

Well we did pretty much cover, at length, your possible options. Really there isn't that much to it...

[Jack Curtis]

Well we did pretty much cover, at length, your possible options. Really there isn't that much to it...

That's for sure, very cogent summary. :)

[Chris Griggs]

For an A&C piece like that, I wouldn't have a problem doweling the thing together. Krenov doweled a lot of his cabinets and I don't see a problem with it. Just call it loose tenon joinery if you have something against doweling. :)

If you want the strength of the dovetails without the ugly end grain, you can do a full-blind or miter dovetail. Not all that hard to do, really, since you only have two show surfaces to worry about.
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This is the cabinet you're making? I agree with Zach's suggestions. Given the style of the piece I would have no issue with doweling this together or using a pinned/doweled rabbet. Alternatively, I would use a full blind/double lap dovetail. I'm less opposed to showing any endgrain than Zach or Dave, especially on a piece of this style, so I'd also consider half blinds for this piece, though I think agree that regular through dovetails would indeed be too busy. Personally, I wouldn't use a blind miter dovetail, simply because I'm not good enough at those to pull them off on something that wide, but double lap dovetails aren't much harder than half-blinds. While having to chop out all the waste makes them take a little longer, once you understand the layout they are actually in someways are easier than a half blind since the only visible part of the joint is the rabbet.
258786


I also would recommend skipping the wedged tenons on the shelf. I understand the desire to want to use it as an opportunity to practice the joint (I do this all the time), but unless I'm missing something about the design, you'll have an exposed tenon on one side of the the case and not the other, since the shelf stops at the door. I guess that's not necessarily an issue but that would bug me. A stopped dado makes much more sense is my mind, and is still a good excise to do by hand, especially if you are a beginner (and even if your not)

[Karl Andersson]

If you want to go with the wedged through-tenon for the shelf, you could make the vertical end pieces longer and make the case assembly joints be wedged through-tenons as well. You'd need the extra length to give strength to the "outboard" portions of the ends when you wedge the tenons. The pattern of the exposed end grain "rectangles" in that case shouldn't be overbearing, as there wouldn't be as many tenons as there would be dovetails, and they could be fancied up with wedges of a different color. Not everything has to be a colonial secretary - look at Japanese or Central European country furniture (like A&C was emulating) to find ways to make it look better.

[Russell Sansom]

The big problem with wedged through-tenons is that they are hard to get right. The outside of the mortises have to be extremely precise and crisp in order to avoid unsightly gaps. They take some experience and considerable confidence. That's the reason I like them, but I'm just offering the warning that they are deceptively demanding.

[Patrick Bernardo]

Heh, yes. Thanks for the replies. I was joking in that post, but now that I re-read it, it sounds a little testy. No offense meant.

It's funny, I was hoping that there was another option yet - one that I hadn't considered. But it does look like this is one of the reasons why machine joints have won out in case work... just more options.