Animal hide glue?

[Michael Ray Smith]

Does anyone use animal hide glue? If so, when and why?

[David Weaver]

I use liquid hide glue almost exclusively, because:
* it's repairable
* no creep like PVA has
* it's at least as strong as PVA
* it doesn't ruin finishes if some sneaks by

It can be made waterproof if needed. The only disadvantage I can see is that it won't tolerate a cool shop as well and it costs a little more.

[Zach Dillinger]

I use both liquid and hot hide glue. I have not used a modern glue in several years. I use it for the same reasons as David, to which I will add that I use it because it is period correct to the work in which I am interested.

[David Barnett]

Does anyone use animal hide glue? If so, when and why?

I use hot hide glue, rabbit skin and fish glue (isinglass).

I prefer hot hide glue for rubbed joints, hammer veneering and most general wood gluing tasks, rabbit skin glue for instrument making, gilding, gesso and ground for painting, and fish glue for its rapid seize/grab on wood, hides, parchment and vellum—the real thing from Russian sturgeon bladders—not from cod, et al. Preferring to avoid clamping and rarely needing extended open time, I just as rarely use liquid hide glue.

Glue creep? I hate glue creep.

[Peter J Lee]

I actually just got my first bottle of Old Brown Glue today. I've used Titebond till now. I like the slow set and the easy clean up. If you work on prefinished stuff like interior trim, its just so nice to wipe any squeeze out with a warm barely damp cloth after its dry.

I'd like to give hot hide glue a try, but its on the "one of these days" list.

[Bruce Haugen]

Count me among the hide glue users, primarily Old Brown Glue.

[Jonas Baker]

I use primarily hot hide glue for everything. I started using it because my first foray into woodworking was building guitars, and the benefits in guitar building are very worthwile, which I could go into detail if anyone wants (resistance to cold creep, sound differences, repairability, etc). I have continued to use it in woodworking and furniture buliding because I think it is an excellent glue, it requires you to work to tighter tollerances as it has less gap filling abilities than titebond or epoxy, and it is the old world way of working that fits in with the hand tool dynamic.

I don't use the liquid hide glue for the same reason I started using hot hide glue, in that many guitar builders claimed that it didn't create as strong joints as hot hide glue (they exhibited glue failures in bridge glue ups on acoustic guitars for instance). I haven't heard anyone say anything about this in furniture building, so maybe the differences are slight enough that they only come about in guitars, where there are more stress on glue joints? Of course, it's good enough for Patrick Edwards, so who am I kidding, but either way, I really enjoy working with hot hide glue, and I think more people in the hand tool world should try it out.

[David Barnett]

I don't use the liquid hide glue for the same reason I started using hot hide glue, in that many guitar builders claimed that it didn't create as strong joints as hot hide glue (they exhibited glue failures in bridge glue ups on acoustic guitars for instance). I haven't heard anyone say anything about this in furniture building, so maybe the differences are slight enough that they only come about in guitars, where there are more stress on glue joints?

I agree on bridges and anything else in luthiery with glued elements in tension—no creep and hard enough to make a difference in the sound. I used nothing but hot hide glue on my Bouchet classical. Liquid hide glue is fine for furniture, no doubt, but I prefer hot hide glue for for my style of construction and assembly.

[Michael Ray Smith]

Thanks, everyone. I'm trying out hot hide glue first, and I've already seen the benefits of being able to clean it off finished surfaces. One of my first uses was today -- fixing two legs on a pool table that we sort of, um, broke, trying to move it, If I get tired of dealing with the glue pot, I'll probably try liquid hide glue.

[jamie shard]

I don't know if this is true for others... but I basically decide on liquid vs. hot hide glue for furniture making based on the length/complexity of the joint. For a big carcass dovetail (working alone) I'm just too slow. I need to use liquid hide glue. But for something like mortises or other single joints, hot hide glue is fine (and cleans up easier, too).

[Matthew N. Masail]

It can be made waterproof if needed.

Am I the only one who saw this oe is this a known thing? how can you make it waterproof?

[David Weaver]

http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/glue.htm

Add Aluminum sulfate. 1/2% to 1%. In a throwaway container.

[David Barnett]

Am I the only oe who saw this one is this a known thing? how can you make it waterproof?

Yes, it's known and has been for a long time that an addition of ½ to 1% alum makes hide glue waterproof, although violin bowmaker, John Aniano, found it to be less waterproof than water resistant when left immersed. He also found formaldehyde treatment, another waterproofing method, produced a more reliable effect than his results with alum.

From a modern source, Steven Shepherd, author of Hide Glue: Historical & Practical Applications, on his Full Chisel Blog—Making the case for hide glue*, states:

"Adding things like alum to make it waterproof, or glycerin to make it flexible, or bone dust as a thickening agent also reduces the strength of hot hide glue by 10%. So altered hot hide glue and liquid hide glue still has a shear strength in excess of 2800 psi."

Although I use epoxies for gluing metal-to-wood and metal-to-metal, Shepherd describes using hide glue with garlic for metal-to-metal bonds, as well. Versatile stuff.


*http://www.fullchisel.com/blog/?p=2105

[Jim Koepke]

Does anyone use animal hide glue? If so, when and why?

Funny that my use of animal hide glue preceded my woodworking.

I used rabbit skin glue for some gold leaf work.

jtk

[David Barnett]

Funny that my use of animal hide glue preceded my woodworking.

I used rabbit skin glue for some gold leaf work.

Same here. I was a bookbinder & document restorer before I ever considered woodworking.

[russell lusthaus]

I make my own hide glue from sinew and hide scraps for gluing rawhide or sinew to the back of bows and for using sinew and glue to tie feathers on arrows. I have not been able to make it waterproof by it self in any way that suited me (but I will look closely at the link above) - but it can be reheated (have heat gun will travel) , the work repositioned or taken apart, all without loss of strength. I do not think the bottled stuff is quite the same.

I have also used knox gelatin from the supermarket when in a bind. Very pure and clear hide glue - and easy to obtain.

Russ

[Zach Dillinger]

I make my own hide glue from sinew and hide scraps for gluing rawhide or sinew to the back of bows and for using sinew and glue to tie feathers on arrows. I have not been able to make it waterproof by it self in any way that suited me (but I will look closely at the link above) - but it can be reheated (have heat gun will travel) , the work repositioned or taken apart, all without loss of strength. I do not think the bottled stuff is quite the same.

I have also used knox gelatin from the supermarket when in a bind. Very pure and clear hide glue - and easy to obtain.

Russ

Making your own hide glue? Now that is hardcore. I doff my hat to you sir.

[Kees Heiden]

So, I ordered 1 kg of the stuff too! Never thought I would ever do that, but with all the talk lately about hideglue and me going back to ever more arcane stuff, I just couldn't stop myself anymore. I hope to be able to assemble the under carriage of my table next weekend. And I am very anxious to try a new technique.

BTW, I bought something called "bone glue", litteraly translated into English. That's the stuff most often used overhere seemingly.

[russell lusthaus]

Making your own hide glue? Now that is hardcore. I doff my hat to you sir.

Thank you, but it is really not all that big a deal. The guys I usually compare my work to all make their own (or use knox) too, so it does not seem too hardcore to me, but we also pride ourselves on producing work that is primitive - or as primitive as possible in the modern world.

I make it large batches, let it cool on wax paper, cut up slabs and keep it in the freezer. It keeps forever (as far as I know). Just reheat a slab when required - just dont tell the vegetarian SWMBO what that stuff is in the saran wrap at the bottom of the freezer. She wont be pleased.

Russ

[Zach Dillinger]

Thank you, but it is really not all that big a deal. The guys I usually compare my work to all make their own (or use knox) too, so it does not seem too hardcore to me, but we also pride ourselves on producing work that is primitive - or as primitive as possible in the modern world.

I make it large batches, let it cool on wax paper, cut up slabs and keep it in the freezer. It keeps forever (as far as I know). Just reheat a slab when required - just dont tell the vegetarian SWMBO what that stuff is in the saran wrap at the bottom of the freezer. She wont be pleased.

Russ

Too funny. Glad to have met you online.

[John Coloccia]

I use hot hide glue for some things. For example, sometimes I'm just gluing little reinforcements around a crack, and it's incredibly inconvenient to get a clamp there. HHG is the ticket. Hold the piece in place for 30 seconds until it sets, and as the glue shrinks it will pull the piece up tight. There's also a more practical reason to use it on instruments. Think about a guitar left in a car for a couple of hours. Pros travel with their guitars. They sit in busses. They sit outside in the sun.

http://www.frets.com/FretsPages/Luthier/Data/Materials/GlueTest/gluetest.html

It's counterintuitive because everyone knows that hide glue is reversible with heat, but it's really heat and considerable moisture that makes it release.

re: keeping it in the freezer

I have a dedicated ice cube tray that I use to freeze my hide glue batch. Very convenient! When I need some I just grab a cube, stick it in the pot and go.

[george wilson]

Lyon and Healey(or was it Wurlitzer?) used Knox gelatin as glue. They made some amazing,nearly invisible joints on blonde maple. The workmen would heat some up with sugar and eat out for dessert at lunch!!