Rabbet vs. Shoulder Planes

[Tom Winship]

Is there a difference between the two? Or just different names for the same thing?
Thanks

[Zach Dillinger]

Rabbet planes are typically bevel down and are frequently skewed. Shoulder planes are typically bevel up and are almost never skewed. They will both do similar things, but the shoulder plane gets the nod when working end grain (like a tenon shoulder) due to the superior support of the cutting edge.

[Kees Heiden]

In my view, the rabbetplanes are the workhorses, the shoulderplanes the fine tuning machines. When you need a rabbet you take a rabbetplane and waste away the wood quickly. When you want to adjust something, the shoulderplane is the better choice, because it is much finer tuned.

Remember, shoulderplanes are a rather late invention in the plane making history and overhere in Central Europe they never really catched on. So you can easilly regard the shoulderplane as a specialty plane, you don't really need. A rabbet plane is indispensable in handtool woodworking of course.

[Alan Schwabacher]

My understanding of the distinction (which will be corrected if mistaken) is that the term "rabbet plane" refers to any plane that can cut all the way to its edge. "Shoulder plane" refers to a subset of rabbet planes used for finer work, particularly adjusting tenon shoulders. These tend to have lower beds, finer and/or adjustable mouths, and sides accurately square to their soles. The usual rabbet plane is used to cut more quickly and less precisely than a shoulder plane.

[Steve Friedman]

Rabbet planes are typically bevel down and are frequently skewed.
Zach,

I have always been confused by this. I'm sure your comment is accurate regarding historical rabbet planes, but the LV and L-N rabbet plane lineups confuse me. Between them, they manufacture seven rabbet planes (excluding the side rabbets), but no two seem to have the same set of features:

Bevel Down:
L-N Bench Rabbet - Straight Blade without fence
LV Skew Rabbet - Skewed Blade with fence & depth stop

Bevel Up:
L-N Jack Rabbet - Straight Blade without fence
LV Jack Rabbet - Straight Blade with fence

Block Plane Size (all bevel up)
L-N Skew Block - Skewed Blade with fence & removable side
L-N Rabbet Block - Straight Blade without fence
LV Skew Block - Skewed Blade with fence

Can you see why I'm confused?

Steve

[Zach Dillinger]

Steve my comments were aimed at historical planes. I did not include the modern rabbeting bench planes or block planes. I honestly can not really speak to them as I don't use them with the exception of the LN rabbet block.

[Kees Heiden]

Me too. I was mostly thinking about the narrow rabbetplane. Historically there have been examples of rabbeting benchplanes. Like the Badgerplane, a typical English bench plane with skewed iron, used for raising panels, large rebates etc. But overall I think it still stands that a rebbating plane is more for stock removal and the shoulderplane is a special one, used for fine tuning.

Just for gigs and giggles. In the 18th century a Dutch rebbating benchplane was rather common, which wasn't a rabbeting plane at all. You can see an example here: http://www.openluchtmuseum.nl/index.php?pid=372&item=3960.
It looks like this was a plane designed for rabbets with a round corner. But it is now believed that this was a smoothing plane. You had to work the panel to be smoothed from right to left, and the round corner of the plane woul remove all tramlines from the surface.

[Zach Dillinger]

Kees I agree with the distinctions you make in how they are used. My definitions were geared more towards physical differences in the planes themselves. So I think we have this question nailed between the two of us.

[Adam Cruea]

Zach,

I have always been confused by this. I'm sure your comment is accurate regarding historical rabbet planes, but the LV and L-N rabbet plane lineups confuse me. Between them, they manufacture seven rabbet planes (excluding the side rabbets), but no two seem to have the same set of features:

Bevel Down:
L-N Bench Rabbet - Straight Blade without fence
LV Skew Rabbet - Skewed Blade with fence & depth stop

Bevel Up:
L-N Jack Rabbet - Straight Blade without fence
LV Jack Rabbet - Straight Blade with fence

Block Plane Size (all bevel up)
L-N Skew Block - Skewed Blade with fence & removable side
L-N Rabbet Block - Straight Blade without fence
LV Skew Block - Skewed Blade with fence

Can you see why I'm confused?

Steve

I think that's due more to the audience that each maker is geared toward.

For example, they both offer a BU jointer. . .almost the exact same plane, but LV offers it with an attachable fence, whereas LN doesn't. My best guess is that LN is more "traditional" whereas LV is more "hobbyist" (if that makes sense).

[Steve Friedman]

I think that's due more to the audience that each maker is geared toward.

For example, they both offer a BU jointer. . .almost the exact same plane, but LV offers it with an attachable fence, whereas LN doesn't. My best guess is that LN is more "traditional" whereas LV is more "hobbyist" (if that makes sense).
You could be right. But, shouldn't all rabbet planes have fences? I prefer L-N planes to LV ones (and own the LN 140), but my next rabbet plane will definitely be a LV just because of the fences. I also find it kind of strange that there is only one rabbet plane with a depth stop. I don't do cabinets, but isn't a depth stop an important feature in a rabbet plane?

And what do you use for a stopped rabbet (if that's what it's called)? I just struggled with trying to cut a 2" x 4" rabbet (around 3/8" deep) into a board and couldn't figure out what tool to use. Finally realized it was like a mortise with one side open and ended up using a mortise chisel and cleaned up with a Router plane. What do you use for that?

Steve

[Zach Dillinger]

You could be right. But, shouldn't all rabbet planes have fences? I prefer L-N planes to LV ones (and own the LN 140), but my next rabbet plane will definitely be a LV just because of the fences. I also find it kind of strange that there is only one rabbet plane with a depth stop. I don't do cabinets, but isn't a depth stop an important feature in a rabbet plane?

And what do you use for a stopped rabbet (if that's what it's called)? I just struggled with trying to cut a 2" x 4" rabbet (around 3/8" deep) into a board and couldn't figure out what tool to use. Finally realized it was like a mortise with one side open and ended up using a mortise chisel and cleaned up with a Router plane. What do you use for that?

Steve

Steve, a true rabbet plane (again I'm only speaking to historic tools not modern "rabbet" planes) is a very simple tool. No fence (you use your fingers while working to a line) and no depth stop (you work to a line). No need to get all fancy, especially when fancy tools cost more money and the simplest tools are usually the most versatile.

What were you doing that required a stopped rabbet? Stopped dados are a little more common in my experience. I don't recall the last time I had to cut a stopped rabbet. Either way, a simple chisel makes quick work of them (I saw the shoulders first on the dado). Just scribe your lines with a knife or marking gauge and work to them. Bevel down to hog the waste, then bevel up for fine paring cuts to your finished width and depth.

[Mike Cogswell]

You could be right. But, shouldn't all rabbet planes have fences? I prefer L-N planes to LV ones (and own the LN 140), but my next rabbet plane will definitely be a LV just because of the fences. I also find it kind of strange that there is only one rabbet plane with a depth stop. I don't do cabinets, but isn't a depth stop an important feature in a rabbet plane?

You really don't need either a fence or a depth stop. Although I have a variety of the LN and LV planes listed above as well as some shoulder planes I often use one of the several old wooden rabbit (AKA rebate) planes that I own. I simply scribe the width and depth on the board with a wheel gauge and then start the rabbit by tilting the edge of the plane into the top line and making one pass. Make a second pass with the plane vertical and just far enough over that you don't accidentally cut into the line. Now the edge established on your first pass, which is exactly on the line, is your fence. Keep going down until you get to the line on the edge of the board. Presto, a very quick and easy rabbit. If it's a small rabbit I would use my little LN 1/2 shoulder plane. (Thanks to Matt Bickford who showed this technique to me during one of his moulding plane classes.)


And what do you use for a stopped rabbet (if that's what it's called)? I just struggled with trying to cut a 2" x 4" rabbet (around 3/8" deep) into a board and couldn't figure out what tool to use. Finally realized it was like a mortise with one side open and ended up using a mortise chisel and cleaned up with a Router plane. What do you use for that?

Steve

Since that is basically a deep hinge mortise I would probably use some combination of chisels, my Dohmeyer Patent Cabinet Door Hinge Plane (I think it was made by Rumbold, but it's not marked) and/or possibly a router plane.

[Steve Friedman]

What were you doing that required a stopped rabbet? Stopped dados are a little more common in my experience. I don't recall the last time I had to cut a stopped rabbet. Either way, a simple chisel makes quick work of them (I saw the shoulders first on the dado). Just scribe your lines with a knife or marking gauge and work to them. Bevel down to hog the waste, then bevel up for fine paring cuts to your finished width and depth.
I am not sure whether what I was trying to do is called a stopped rabbet. That's just what I called it. I am trying to build a scaled-down version of this to use as a bookshelf in my office.

258478

Not sure if you can see it in the picture, but there is a stretcher under the rear of the top running between the legs. I wanted to make a 3/8" deep slot at the top rear of the legs for the stretcher to sit in. After struggling a bit, I wasn't happy with the fit and ended up cutting a complete notch in the top rear of the lgs. The stretcher will extend a bit past the outside of the legs, but it's covered by the overhang of the top and I shaped the ends of the stretcher to (hopefully) blend with the look of the live edge.

I plan to assemble this weekend, so pictures may be forthcoming.

Steve

[Jim Koepke]

You could be right. But, shouldn't all rabbet planes have fences? I prefer L-N planes to LV ones (and own the LN 140), but my next rabbet plane will definitely be a LV just because of the fences. I also find it kind of strange that there is only one rabbet plane with a depth stop. I don't do cabinets, but isn't a depth stop an important feature in a rabbet plane?

And what do you use for a stopped rabbet (if that's what it's called)? I just struggled with trying to cut a 2" x 4" rabbet (around 3/8" deep) into a board and couldn't figure out what tool to use. Finally realized it was like a mortise with one side open and ended up using a mortise chisel and cleaned up with a Router plane. What do you use for that?

Steve

I have a few old wooden rabbet planes and a few metal rabbet planes without fences. Most of them do not have depth stops.

For a stopped rabbet a Stanley 45 has a unique characteristic that allows for this:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?196104-Today-s-Epiphany-With-the-Stanley-45

The right up may be a little sketchy. I did submit to PWW for publication, but the contributing editor felt it was too specialized. I am planing on reworking my write up and submitting it to another magazine.

Using a batten instead of a fence allows for stopped cuts of any kind anywhere on a piece.

jtk

[Adam Cruea]

I am not sure whether what I was trying to do is called a stopped rabbet. That's just what I called it. I am trying to build a scaled-down version of this to use as a bookshelf in my office.

258478

Not sure if you can see it in the picture, but there is a stretcher under the rear of the top running between the legs. I wanted to make a 3/8" deep slot at the top rear of the legs for the stretcher to sit in. After struggling a bit, I wasn't happy with the fit and ended up cutting a complete notch in the top rear of the lgs. The stretcher will extend a bit past the outside of the legs, but it's covered by the overhang of the top and I shaped the ends of the stretcher to (hopefully) blend with the look of the live edge.

I plan to assemble this weekend, so pictures may be forthcoming.

Steve

Ahh, I see.

For me, I personally would have forgone the rabbet (I think rabbets are on the edge, dado is anywhere else) and done either a wedged through tenon or pinned blind tenon, depending on how thick the legs/risers are, or done something like a blind dovetail or through dovetail (it's really all up to how much you dislike end grain). Far greater mechanical strength there, IMHO.

TBH, I am not a real big fan of rabbets *unless* it's for the top of a cabinet or something pressing the wood down into the rabbet. I may be totally misinformed, but to me, a rabbet joint is barely stronger than a butt joint because all the glue is going to be contacting end grain *somewhere*. I like to build my stuff as bomb-proof as possible (generally because both my wife and I are klutzy, so things get to take a lot of abuse).

*edit* And I just noticed the picture's title (nakashima something). . .so if it's Japanese, well, you just have to do some crazy elaborate joinery if you want to keep it in the Japanese style. ;) :-P

[Steve Friedman]

Ahh, I see.

For me, I personally would have forgone the rabbet (I think rabbets are on the edge, dado is anywhere else) and done either a wedged through tenon or pinned blind tenon, depending on how thick the legs/risers are, or done something like a blind dovetail or through dovetail (it's really all up to how much you dislike end grain). Far greater mechanical strength there, IMHO.

TBH, I am not a real big fan of rabbets *unless* it's for the top of a cabinet or something pressing the wood down into the rabbet. I may be totally misinformed, but to me, a rabbet joint is barely stronger than a butt joint because all the glue is going to be contacting end grain *somewhere*. I like to build my stuff as bomb-proof as possible (generally because both my wife and I are klutzy, so things get to take a lot of abuse).

*edit* And I just noticed the picture's title (nakashima something). . .so if it's Japanese, well, you just have to do some crazy elaborate joinery if you want to keep it in the Japanese style. ;) :-P

Thanks Adam. I guess I was using the term "rabbet" to describe any routed out area along the edge of a board. This is the 1st piece of indoor furniture and first live edge I have ever attempted, so I was trying to keep the joinery as simple as I could - knowing it might end up in the wood pile. I ended up notching the rear of the legs and pinning the stretcher in place with (hand made) ebony dowels. No glue except on the dowels. By tonight I should know if the joinery is solid enough.

Steve