Twisted Finger Joints

[Stanley Covington]

The pics that follow are of saisenbako and joints. Saisenbako are boxes placed before the open doors of a Shinto alter. The faithful (or hopeful) toss an offering of cash/coins in the box, swing a rope hanging nearby that rings a big cowbell-type thing, puts their hands together and offer a prayer. Some of the joints can be bizarre, but require great skill.

I have also included some links to webpages with more details and examples. Sadly, they are only in Japanese so you might have to click the links on the pages trial and error.

Stan

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http://www.e-saisenbako.com/katachi/katachi-00.html
http://www.e-saisenbako.com/takumi/takumi-01.html
http://www.e-saisenbako.com/takumi/takumi-02.html

[Jeff Bartley]

I love Japanese joinery Stan! Thanks for sharing! Have you seen Chris Halls' work? Google 'the carpentry way'. His blog is a must read for anyone interested in this type of work......just leave yourself plenty of time there's a lot to read and see!

[Fred Maiman]

That is just amazing stuff. Reminds me of a zipper or something.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

So these twisted finger joints you've pictured, and some of the linked ones - I'm having a hard time seeing how they go together. At first, it looks like they'd slide together the same as dovetails, but on closer look, it seems like there's a slope of both sides of the joint - so they slide together at an angle like a rising dovetail might? Can this joint be pulled off on all four sides of a case? I guess I need to look a little more. this is neat, though!

[Stanley Covington]

Remember, the twisted fingers are angled on both boards, so they can't be assembled like a regular finger joint or dovetail. I have made smaller boxes using this joint, and it is both frustrating to make and to assemble.

Stan

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Remember, the twisted fingers are angled on both boards, so they can't be assembled like a regular finger joint or dovetail. I have made smaller boxes using this joint, and it is both frustrating to make and to assemble.

Stan

I guess that was my question! Seeing as I was seeing it right; that they *are* angled on both boards, how *do* those joints slide together? I'm guessing instead of one board sliding in perpendicular to the other (like a DT or finger joint) they both sort of slide in at a 45 angle to each other? I'm having a hard time with google finding more examples, but I don't quite know what I should be searching for. I am getting a lot of medical hits for pain in your fingers (digits rather than joints . . . )

I think the next step is to look at some of the references folks posted in previous similar threads, I guess . . .

[Stanley Covington]

They must be assembled by sliding them together at a 45 degree angle. So one first aligns the inside corners of the pins and tails at the four corners, then gently and gradually taps them into position.

Relatively thin cross grain stuff so it is easy to break them off. The thicker the material, of course, the more difficult it is to assemble the joints. In a dovetail joint, if a few pins/tails are a bit out of tolerance, force can be used without too many problems. But in the case of this style of joint, things break instead of compressing.

The idea of doing a big box like the ones in the pics I posted gives me a headache.

Stan

[Stanley Covington]

I guess that was my question! Seeing as I was seeing it right; that they *are* angled on both boards, how *do* those joints slide together? I'm guessing instead of one board sliding in perpendicular to the other (like a DT or finger joint) they both sort of slide in at a 45 angle to each other? I'm having a hard time with google finding more examples, but I don't quite know what I should be searching for. I am getting a lot of medical hits for pain in your fingers (digits rather than joints . . . )

I think the next step is to look at some of the references folks posted in previous similar threads, I guess . . .

Not sure what the best translation is. In Japanese it is called a Nejire-Kumitsugi 捻れ組継、, which directly translates to "twisted joint” with "joint" in this case being the same as used for a dovetail "joint." I called it a "Twisted Finger Joint," borrowing the term "twisted" from the Japanese, because it is a finger joint, but at oblique angles.

When I learned the joint (much smaller scale) I was told it was called a "Benten Kumitsugi."

If you copy the kanji I wrote above and paste them into a Google search, you will likely find Japanese-language webpages with pictures.

Stan

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Thanks Stan. When I get some time tomorrow I'll have to follow through on looking more into it now you've given me a better start. Curious how you mark out the second part to the first . . .

Thanks again!

[david charlesworth]

My first book of articles shows how these joints are marked out, made and assembled.

In the process of making, I worked out that the second part can be marked out from the first. This was pleasing as Alan Peters had categorically stated that you could not mark one from the other.

Best wishes,
David Charlesworth

[Metod Alif]

Chris Hall's work is outstanding. There is indeed much to learn from his web site.
Metod

[Jack Curtis]

My first book of articles shows how these joints are marked out, made and assembled.

In the process of making, I worked out that the second part can be marked out from the first. This was pleasing as Alan Peters had categorically stated that you could not mark one from the other.

Is this (http://www.amazon.com/David-Charlesworths-Furniture-Making-Techniques-v/dp/1861081251/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1364607583&sr=1-1&keywords=david+charlesworth) it? A 1999 v1?

BTW, it's very handy to allow searching so a TOC can be examined.

[david charlesworth]

Jack,

Yes, that's the one. Thank you. What is TOC please?

David

[Edward Miller]

Jack,

Yes, that's the one. Thank you. What is TOC please?

David

TOC means table of contents.

[Bob Glenn]

Thanks a lot guys.........I just lost three hours at Chris Hall's website.