PM-V11 in 1/8": Would you get one?

[Jim Neeley]

Hi, all...

Like (I suspect) many, I've been closely eyeing the Veritas (Lee Valley) PM-V11 chisels; they look like a smart choice. I've been holding off on that path to date because they don't offer anything under 1/4", notably 1/8". I own a set of LN's and find the ones I use most are the 1/8, 1/4, and 1/2" and then the 3/4".

Am I the only one holding back from jumping into the PM-V11 world because there's no 1/8"?

Jim in Alaska

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Jim

I do know that LV will be producing a 1/8" and, if I recall correctly, a 3/16". Rob Lee has already mentioned this. I don't think that they are far off production, so it is worth being patient.

I want these in PM-V11 as well. The sizes 1/8", 3/16" and 1/4" are the ones I use most frequently for dovetail tails. While I wait, I ground one of the pre-production O1 steel 1/4" chisels down to 1/8" ..

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Chisels/LV%20Chisel%20Review/A2.jpg

The difficulty with such narrow chisels is that they are more vulnerable to flex. Design must account for this.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Rob Lee]

Hi, all...

Like (I suspect) many, I've been closely eyeing the Veritas (Lee Valley) PM-V11 chisels; they look like a smart choice. I've been holding off on that path to date because they don't offer anything under 1/4", notably 1/8". I own a set of LN's and find the ones I use most are the 1/8, 1/4, and 1/2" and then the 3/4".

Am I the only one holding back from jumping into the PM-V11 world because there's no 1/8"?

Jim in Alaska

Hi Jim -

We've made some 1/8 and 3/16 to prove out our process.... they'll be coming, but not until we're in better shape on what we offer now. We will need some additional new equipment for those sizes too....

Cheers -

Rob

[Jim Koepke]

Though they are fine tools and will challenge any of my tools to an edge holding contest it is not likely for me to purchase a set of the PM-V11s.

One never knows, tonight's Power Ball numbers may change everything.

jtk

[Mike Henderson]

I want a 1/8" for chopping out small dovetails. Today I use a LN 1/8" chisel for that.

Mike

[Charlie Stanford]

Hi, all...

Like (I suspect) many, I've been closely eyeing the Veritas (Lee Valley) PM-V11 chisels; they look like a smart choice. I've been holding off on that path to date because they don't offer anything under 1/4", notably 1/8". I own a set of LN's and find the ones I use most are the 1/8, 1/4, and 1/2" and then the 3/4".

Am I the only one holding back from jumping into the PM-V11 world because there's no 1/8"?

Jim in Alaska

What is it about the Lie-Nielsens you already own that has you shopping for a new set of chisels?

[David Weaver]

Charlie, I doubt anyone needs to justify their purchases to you, despite the fact that for at least 12 years, you've felt that they do.

[peter gagliardi]

Not Jim, but I have purchased 1 LN chisel with the paring handle, and there are several things worth disliking about them.
First, the A2 steel is not that good at edge holding for the amount of work necessary to maintain the edge. I will take ever so slightly less edge holding ability of carbon steel in favor of lightning quick resharping any day. The object of a tool is for it to be just that a "tool" something to help you accomplish your goal quickly and efficiently, not add more work to an already full schedule, or create another job.
Second, the steel used, and size and shape of the socket combine to make a miserable experience of keeping the handle firmly seated in the socket. A short, steep, socket is far less than ideal, it needs to be a longer and shallower angle.
Third, the same chisel body is used for paring and chopping, so it is far less than ideal at least for paring, as the socket gets in the way when paring further than about 3 " from the edge of stock.
After receiving this chisel, I called and spoke with Deneb, who was very nice, but rather dismissive of my opinions. They see it their way, and I'm free to purchase a tool that I feel is better suited to everyday work in the shop, in other words, a tool that works with me instead of against me.
To that end, I purchased the set of 4 cabinetmakers chisels from Barr Specialty tools in Idaho- handmade, pricey to some, but certainly not me, and worth every penny!!! I used them for about a year or so, then called Barr up himself and asked if he would make me up the filler set for all sizes from 1/8" to 1" so I have every 1/16" from 1/8" to 1/2" then every 1/8" to 1". It took a few weeks and voila I have a full set of new handmade chisels from right here in the USA, and NOT mass produced.
The steel is beyond phenomenal, takes a very quick, very sharp edge that lasts quite a long time. I couldn't be happier, unless of course I got them for free!
I am about to call him back up to see about designing and making a set of 2-3 long paring chisels.
He makes everything in house, and it is a husband and wife team, which I am proud to support. Ginger usually answers the phone and fills orders.
Now, you have to take the above with a grain of salt, as it is MY opinion . I am a self employed professional woodworker, with a wife and 4 kids to support, so I have almost no time or patience to adapt myself to a tools way of working, but rather I need tools that can do their job without a lot of extra work or thinking to optimize them for the job at hand. If I were a hobbyist, my attitude would likely be more forgiving of a tool's shortcomings, but I'm not.
I do believe in the buy it once mantra.
Peter

[Jim Koepke]

I have almost no time or patience to adapt myself to a tools way of working, but rather I need tools that can do their job without a lot of extra work or thinking to optimize them for the job at hand.

This is the main reason my advice to most people is to try and get to handle tools before buying.

Tools should fit and feel good in one's hands while working.

The tool should be adjusted to fit the worker, not the worker making adjustments for the tool.

jtk

[Curt Putnam]

Due to a one time infusion of money, I bought the full set of PM-V11 chisels. Of the chisels I was able to handle (LN, LV and BS) the Veritas chisels felt best in my hands (larger than average.) When the smaller chisels come out, I will buy them. Until then, when I need a 1/8" I'll buy something - probably a BS.

[Charlie Stanford]

Charlie, I doubt anyone needs to justify their purchases to you, despite the fact that for at least 12 years, you've felt that they do.

I doubt it to, but I'm not asking for justification.

I think it's the lack of a 3/16" chisel that has me hesitant to bail into a whole set.

[Charlie Stanford]

Not Jim, but I have purchased 1 LN chisel with the paring handle, and there are several things worth disliking about them.
First, the A2 steel is not that good at edge holding for the amount of work necessary to maintain the edge. I will take ever so slightly less edge holding ability of carbon steel in favor of lightning quick resharping any day. The object of a tool is for it to be just that a "tool" something to help you accomplish your goal quickly and efficiently, not add more work to an already full schedule, or create another job.
Second, the steel used, and size and shape of the socket combine to make a miserable experience of keeping the handle firmly seated in the socket. A short, steep, socket is far less than ideal, it needs to be a longer and shallower angle.
Third, the same chisel body is used for paring and chopping, so it is far less than ideal at least for paring, as the socket gets in the way when paring further than about 3 " from the edge of stock.
After receiving this chisel, I called and spoke with Deneb, who was very nice, but rather dismissive of my opinions. They see it their way, and I'm free to purchase a tool that I feel is better suited to everyday work in the shop, in other words, a tool that works with me instead of against me.
To that end, I purchased the set of 4 cabinetmakers chisels from Barr Specialty tools in Idaho- handmade, pricey to some, but certainly not me, and worth every penny!!! I used them for about a year or so, then called Barr up himself and asked if he would make me up the filler set for all sizes from 1/8" to 1" so I have every 1/16" from 1/8" to 1/2" then every 1/8" to 1". It took a few weeks and voila I have a full set of new handmade chisels from right here in the USA, and NOT mass produced.
The steel is beyond phenomenal, takes a very quick, very sharp edge that lasts quite a long time. I couldn't be happier, unless of course I got them for free!
I am about to call him back up to see about designing and making a set of 2-3 long paring chisels.
He makes everything in house, and it is a husband and wife team, which I am proud to support. Ginger usually answers the phone and fills orders.
Now, you have to take the above with a grain of salt, as it is MY opinion . I am a self employed professional woodworker, with a wife and 4 kids to support, so I have almost no time or patience to adapt myself to a tools way of working, but rather I need tools that can do their job without a lot of extra work or thinking to optimize them for the job at hand. If I were a hobbyist, my attitude would likely be more forgiving of a tool's shortcomings, but I'm not.
I do believe in the buy it once mantra.
Peter

Peter, what steel did Barr use in the chisels he made for you?

[Mike Henderson]

What is it about the Lie-Nielsens you already own that has you shopping for a new set of chisels?
I own a set of LNs and got a set of LVs (PM-V11). I had made new handles for the LNs because I felt the handles were too short (just a side note). The reason I bought the LVs is because they hold an edge longer so I don't have to go back to my sharpening stones as often. I find that the PM-V11 steel sharpens quickly on my Shapton stones - as fast as regular carbon steel. I use them mostly for chopping so I have a 35* secondary bevel on them (all of them).

I never tried to sharpen them to a very low bevel angle (say, 20*) so I can't comment on their ability to work as a paring chisel.

But for chopping applications, the LVs are the best available today (hopefully, there'll be even better chisels in the future).

Mike

[All this is not to say that other chisels, such as A2 or regular carbon steel, are not good tools. They certainly can be and we all did very good work with them before the PM-V11 steel became available.]

[I'll second Peter G. comment on the problem of handles coming out of the LN chisel sockets. I had a lot of trouble with that but I wrote it off to the sockets being to "perfect" (too smooth). To be fair, I used an oily wood (cocobolo) for my handles, but I finally had to epoxy the handles into the sockets. If I ever have to take them out, I'll cut them off, drill out the socket and turn new handles.
He's also right about the problem with using them as paring chisels. IMHO, a paring chisel should have the handle offset (angled) slightly so you can lay the blade flat on the wood. When the socket is "centered" on the chisel, you can't get the blade all the way down - it's always at a slight angle to the wood.]

[David Weaver]

I doubt it to, but I'm not asking for justification.

I think it's the lack of a 3/16" chisel that has me hesitant to bail into a whole set.

...I was sure it was the "company moderators" (your description) that had you casting a pall in every LV related thread.

[Ryan Baker]

I have the current V11 set and I will add the 1/8 and 3/16 when they are available. But I don't see the current lack of those sizes to be a reason to avoid the rest of the set.

Rob Lee -- add a 5/8" to your list while you are at it.

[Mike Henderson]

I have the current V11 set and I will add the 1/8 and 3/16 when they are available. But I don't see the current lack of those sizes to be a reason to avoid the rest of the set.

Rob Lee -- add a 5/8" to your list while you are at it.
I'd like a 5/8" also, but why do those of you who want a 3/16" want that? I've always been able to use either a 1/8" or 1/4" and never felt I was missing a size. But I don't have a 3/16" so maybe if I did, I'd find it was necessary.

Mike

[Ryan Baker]

I'd like a 5/8" also, but why do those of you who want a 3/16" want that? I've always been able to use either a 1/8" or 1/4" and never felt I was missing a size. But I don't have a 3/16" so maybe if I did, I'd find it was necessary.

Mike

Depends on whether you make lots of things like dovetials that size. Definitely not necessary, but it can be handy.

For me, it is the 3/8 and 5/8 (and maybe 1/8) sizes that I prefer and use the most by far. The standard sets of 1/4, 1/2, 3/4, and 1 were always a bit clunky to me.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

I'd almost hold out more if I knew a *larger* chisel was coming. I have a couple of tiny chisels, and given the size, I for chopping type-tasks, I find I can let them get pretty blunt and they work find given how the force is concentrated in such a small area. For paring tasks I often reach for a detail knife in such small areas. But given my penchant for using a 40mm chisel for almost everything it seems, (it's basically always on my bench) that would be something I would think about trying the PMV11 on.

[Charlie Stanford]

I own a set of LNs and got a set of LVs (PM-V11). I had made new handles for the LNs because I felt the handles were too short (just a side note). The reason I bought the LVs is because they hold an edge longer so I don't have to go back to my sharpening stones as often. I find that the PM-V11 steel sharpens quickly on my Shapton stones - as fast as regular carbon steel. I use them mostly for chopping so I have a 35* secondary bevel on them (all of them).

I never tried to sharpen them to a very low bevel angle (say, 20*) so I can't comment on their ability to work as a paring chisel.

But for chopping applications, the LVs are the best available today (hopefully, there'll be even better chisels in the future).

Mike

[All this is not to say that other chisels, such as A2 or regular carbon steel, are not good tools. They certainly can be and we all did very good work with them before the PM-V11 steel became available.]

[I'll second Peter G. comment on the problem of handles coming out of the LN chisel sockets. I had a lot of trouble with that but I wrote it off to the sockets being to "perfect" (too smooth). To be fair, I used an oily wood (cocobolo) for my handles, but I finally had to epoxy the handles into the sockets. If I ever have to take them out, I'll cut them off, drill out the socket and turn new handles.
He's also right about the problem with using them as paring chisels. IMHO, a paring chisel should have the handle offset (angled) slightly so you can lay the blade flat on the wood. When the socket is "centered" on the chisel, you can't get the blade all the way down - it's always at a slight angle to the wood.]

With all due respect, a lot of chisels will appear magnificent at 35*

I received a 1/2" PM-VII chisel for evaluation and the first thing I did was grind and hone it around 20*. So prepared, it was nothing particularly special. It held its edge in paring no longer than a Marples Blue Chip -- probably of 1970s vintage but I can't say for sure. The LV is a beautiful and exquisitely made chisel but the metallurgical trade-offs all appear to be still in play (as I mentioned in another thread). A low grind is the great equalizer. A high grind is like a high tide - it lifts all boats.

If it is the woodworker's intention to work with a 35* chisel there certainly is no reason to spend $70 per for a chisel that will perform.

[Charlie Stanford]

I'd like a 5/8" also, but why do those of you who want a 3/16" want that? I've always been able to use either a 1/8" or 1/4" and never felt I was missing a size. But I don't have a 3/16" so maybe if I did, I'd find it was necessary.

Mike

I intended the 3/16th as a joke. I can't remember the last time I thought of a chisel by its nominal measurement when actually working with one. I would tend to lay out joinery that fits the chisels I have. I don't have a 1/8" chisel and can't imagine why I would need one (barring me discovering one in a drawer somewhere). If I did need one I would probably go into my kitchen and grind a little flat on the end of an ice pick before I ordered one for $70.

[peter gagliardi]

Charlie, it is some form- don't know of the specific formulation of high carbon steel. After all, it is the carbon doing the work of cutting. Regarding the socket issue , as Mike said, the interior of the socket is just too smooth. The advantage of high carbon is the ability of the steel to at least slightly oxidize- rust to give the wood a little purchase in the socket. Everybody wants to jump on the "I don't want no rust on my tools" bandwagon, so they come out with the rust free, or much, much less prone to rust alloys for all the people who are too lazy to give their tools at least a modicum of respect and wipe them with wax or light oil every so often. I was told a long time ago " take care of your tools, and they'll take care of you"
A little sharpening, and rust prevention is hardly too much to ask from a tool if you ask me. I use my hand tools almost every day, and even then, every so often I'll pull out a plane or chisel and it will have a slight hint of rust. it is because i neglected to give it that 15 seconds of attention before putting it away last time.

[Bruce Haugen]

... I don't have a 1/8" chisel and can't imagine why I would need one (barring me discovering one in a drawer somewhere).

Hah! I found a 1/8" Berg (no less) mortise chisel at a MWTCA tool meet last month - cute as the dickens! Still don't know what I'm going to do with it, but at $10 I wasn't going to pass it up.!

[Mike Henderson]

With all due respect, a lot of chisels will appear magnificent at 35*

I received a 1/2" PM-VII chisel for evaluation and the first thing I did was grind and hone it around 20*. So prepared, it was nothing particularly special. It held its edge in paring no longer than a Marples Blue Chip -- probably of 1970s vintage but I can't say for sure. The LV is a beautiful and exquisitely made chisel but the metallurgical trade-offs all appear to be still in play (as I mentioned in another thread). A low grind is the great equalizer. A high grind is like a high tide - it lifts all boats.

If it is the woodworker's intention to work with a 35* chisel there certainly is no reason to spend $70 per for a chisel that will perform.
No, that's not true. A chisel will hold it's edge longer when chopping with a 35* bevel than with a 20* bevel but if you test a number of chisels in a chopping application, all with 35* bevels, you'll find a difference in the edge holding. I did such a test and you can see my report here (http://www.mikes-woodwork.com/LV-Chisel.htm). I also published the results of that test in a posting in this forum but I can't point you to it now. [edit: Found it - here's a link to my earlier posting (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?191545-Evaluation-of-the-LV-PM-V11-chisel-for-chopping-dovetails&highlight=).]

And let me assure you that when you're chopping into hard wood, a 35* bevel will only stay sharp for a limited length of time.

Mike

[Woodworkers are a pragmatic group of people. Regarding chopping out wood with a chisel, an uninformed person might start with a 20* bevel but would quickly discover that the edge didn't hold up very long. So s/he would increase the bevel angle until the edge held up for a decent amount of time. And this woodworker would also monitor how well the chisel cut. If s/he went to too high a bevel (say 45*) s/he would find that the edge would hold up but the chisel wouldn't cut very well. So we find a happy medium, around 30* to 35*. Woodworkers have done this for centuries and the wisdom passed down to us is that a 30 to 35* bevel angle is a good tradeoff for chopping applications, no matter what the steel. Why you would reject this received wisdom and expect a 20* bevel angle to hold up in a chopping application is something I simply do not understand.

This is also why we differentiate between bench chisels and paring chisels. In addition to a possible difference in shape, we sharpen the paring chisel differently than a bench chisel - we put a low bevel angle on the paring chisel because it is not pounded upon and used to chop out wood - so a lower bevel angle will decrease the force we need to apply and the edge will hold up for an acceptable period of time under those conditions.]

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

I intended the 3/16th as a joke. I can't remember the last time I thought of a chisel by its nominal measurement when actually working with one. I would tend to lay out joinery that fits the chisels I have.

Right on with this, actually - I don't *really* want a 3/16th, as much as something smaller than a 1/4" but bigger than an 1/8th. I don't care too much what it is, except when I'm matching tools. I still don't know what my plough plane irons are, (a cheap Mujingfang plough, with irons that seem rough approximations of traditional sizes) or what some of the chisels I use for mortising are, but I know the plough iron I made a couple file marks in matches the chisel with the chip in the handle.

I also try and size things to my chisels, not the other way round, as well - I've marked out sockets for pins by making a tick on the stock with a chisel and than drawing my lines up from there.

That said, I doubt most of the folks here actually want *specifically* a 1/8th chisel, as much as something in that size range, compared to smallest size LV is offering now.



I don't have a 1/8" chisel and can't imagine why I would need one (barring me discovering one in a drawer somewhere).

Yeah, I did a tiny drawer recently (at least by standards) and 1/8" still would have looked funny too me. Just thinking out angles in my head, I must be way off with my math, because it seems like to need an 1/8th chisel to chop a socket for something like a pin must mean you're dovetailing really thin stock.


If I did need one I would probably go into my kitchen and grind a little flat on the end of an ice pick before I ordered one for $70.

That's been my experience - I never got around to sharpening my 1/8th mortise chisel before using it - and that's kind of what I was alluding to in my previous post - I'm pretty sure you could file a cut nail to a sort of edge and get decent results at 1/8th thick.

That said though, I've got a I think a 2mm chisel, and the few times I need it for some random trimming job where a detail knife won't work, it's invaluable. I just don't think it's the kind of size that's going to see the use or abuse that warrants paying a premium for one.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Meant to add to the discussion on sizes, one thing I have (using a set of old cast steel marples I got cheap as my main chisels) is a pair of chisels around 3/8" wide. I haven't measured them in a while, but one is a bit narrower, and one is a bit wider than the other. I think it's on each side of 3/8", but it's around there. This has come in really handy a few times. I think in the Seaton chest inventory these were referred to as "bare" and "full" sizes or something .. . it's convenient enough I'm almost thinking of picking up another 1/4" chisel and grinding it down a hair . . .

[Charlie Stanford]

No, that's not true. A chisel will hold it's edge longer when chopping with a 35* bevel than with a 20* bevel but if you test a number of chisels in a chopping application, all with 35* bevels, you'll find a difference in the edge holding. I did such a test and you can see my report here (http://www.mikes-woodwork.com/LV-Chisel.htm). I also published the results of that test in a posting in this forum but I can't point you to it now. [edit: Found it - here's a link to my earlier posting (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?191545-Evaluation-of-the-LV-PM-V11-chisel-for-chopping-dovetails&highlight=).]

And let me assure you that when you're chopping into hard wood, a 35* bevel will only stay sharp for a limited length of time.

Mike

[Woodworkers are a pragmatic group of people. Regarding chopping out wood with a chisel, an uninformed person might start with a 20* bevel but would quickly discover that the edge didn't hold up very long. So s/he would increase the bevel angle until the edge held up for a decent amount of time. And this woodworker would also monitor how well the chisel cut. If s/he went to too high a bevel (say 45*) s/he would find that the edge would hold up but the chisel wouldn't cut very well. So we find a happy medium, around 30* to 35*. Woodworkers have done this for centuries and the wisdom passed down to us is that a 30 to 35* bevel angle is a good tradeoff for chopping applications, no matter what the steel. Why you would reject this received wisdom and expect a 20* bevel angle to hold up in a chopping application is something I simply do not understand.

This is also why we differentiate between bench chisels and paring chisels. In addition to a possible difference in shape, we sharpen the paring chisel differently than a bench chisel - we put a low bevel angle on the paring chisel because it is not pounded upon and used to chop out wood - so a lower bevel angle will decrease the force we need to apply and the edge will hold up for an acceptable period of time.]

Your reading comprehension seems to be a little off tonight Mike. I'm not sure why you keep misunderstanding what I write. I don't expect a 20* to hold up in chopping. When it does, that'll be a breakthrough. Otherwise, touting a chisel that holds up to chopping when ground at 35* is akin to informing us that the sky is blue. While I'm sure there are differences between the worst of the worst when compared to the best of the best, 35* chisels hold up pretty well when chopping.

If you'll read what I wrote in my post I said that I demo'd a PM-VII chisel. I reground it to about 20*. And it held up no better than did a Blue Chip similarly ground WHEN PARING!! Please let me repeat - WHEN PARING. AT 20*. A PARING GRIND. I did not grind it at 20* and then proceed to chop mortises 'a la Paul Sellers and then declare the chisel junk. The PM-VII I demo'd had an edge that held no better than did a Blue Chip when ground as a paring chisel and used as a paring chisel.

Please go back and re-read my post to which you responded.

[Mike Henderson]

Your reading comprehension seems to be a little off tonight. I'm not sure why you keep misunderstanding what I write. I don't expect a 20* to hold up in chopping. When it does, that'll be a breakthrough. Otherwise, touting a chisel that holds up to chopping when ground at 35* is akin to informing us that the sky is blue. While I'm sure there are differences between the worst of the worst when compared to the best of the best, 35* chisels hold up pretty well when chopping.

If you'll read what I wrote in my post I said that I demo'd a PM-VII chisel. I reground it to about 20*. And it held up no better than did a Blue Chip similarly ground WHEN PARING!! Please let me repeat - WHEN PARING. AT 20*. A PARING GRIND. I did not grind it at 20* and then proceed to chop mortises 'a la Paul Sellers and then declare the chisel junk. The PM-VII I demo'd had an edge that held no better than did a Blue Chip when ground as a paring chisel and used as a paring chisel.

Please go back and re-read my post to which you responded.

Okay, sorry if I misunderstood you. So we can say, based on your test, that a PM-V11 is not an improvement for paring, but based on my test, that it is an improvement for a chopping application. Do you agree with that?

Mike

[Charlie Stanford]

I personally didn't chop with it at the factory grind but I have no reason to believe that your impression of the chisel as a chopper isn't valid.

I pare with bench chisels way, way more than I chop for what it's worth. I want to know what a chisel will do between 15* and 25* More obtusely ground, they practically all hold up longer than will my noodley right arm. A Blue Chip will go almost a whole drawer's worth of chopping at 35* or so. That's long enough for me. My wallet won't let me use Ebony for drawer sides like some of the blokes that frequent the boards. That's a little bit of hyperbole but it's not that far off.

[Mike Henderson]

I tried to always say that A2 and carbon steel chisels are very usable and we can produce good work with them - we have for hundreds of years (with carbon steel, that is). Progress gets made in increments - in most situations - and the PM-V11 is an incremental improvement over A2 or carbon steel chisels. Whether that improvement is worth while for any particular woodworker is up to that woodworker to decide.

Mike

[Sean Hughto]

Am I the only one holding back from jumping into the PM-V11 world because there's no 1/8"?


Yes. You are the only one. The rest of us are enjoying the great furniture the pm7s are building for us while we watch. Of course, the drawer DTs have unsightly quarter inch pins. You learn to live with it.


More seriously, the only time I rememberer "needing" a 1/8th chisel was when chopping a spine slot for a backsaw handle.

[Matt Meiser]

This was holding me back from ordering a set. That and the backorder status. And the price of course.

I'd like a 1/8 or 3/16 for cleaning out small corners, oopses or corners of dados for 1/4" ply (which is less than 1/4 of course) etc.

[Jim Neeley]

Not Jim, but I have purchased 1 LN chisel with the paring handle, and there are several things worth disliking about them.
First, the A2 steel is not that good at edge holding for the amount of work necessary to maintain the edge. I will take ever so slightly less edge holding ability of carbon steel in favor of lightning quick resharping any day. The object of a tool is for it to be just that a "tool" something to help you accomplish your goal quickly and efficiently, not add more work to an already full schedule, or create another job.

Peter,

My question is not to pick on or focus on you as many have made comments about slowness in sharpening A2 steel, which I do not understand.


I use an 8" grinder with a 46 grin Norton 3x occasionally to re-establish my primary hollow bevel (~25-27*). This takes about a minute, perhaps two if I'm not careful enough to hold it perpendicular to the stone.

Then regularly I use a 1000x Shapton glasstone to make a secondary bevel a degree or two higher (~29*) and my 30,000 glasstone for a micro tertiary bevel a degree or two (~31*) higher yet. This takes 20-30 seconds, tops, from start to finish.

About every 20-30 sharpenings I re-establish the primary bevel.

With sharpening so fast, why would anyone choose a material with less edge retention?

I have a set of O1's I run at a very low angle (~17* primary, 20-22* tertiary) for paring soft material, like pine, but I have them only to prevent dubbing the tips at such a low angle. Others say these are faster to sharpen and maybe they are, but I don't notice the difference if it's decreasing my time to 15-25 seconds from A2's 20-30.

No hostile intent here, just quizzical. What am I missing here?

As for the PM-V11's, I have absolutely nothing negative to say about my LN's; I'm just curious to try out other the promise of the new steel. Unlike some here that make their living from woodworking where efficiency is everything, mine is a hobby and I do woodworking because I like doing it on my journey of life and I want to try out the PM-V11 as part of that journey.

Jim

[David Weaver]

Yes. You are the only one. The rest of us are enjoying the great furniture the pm7s are building for us while we watch. Of course, the drawer DTs have unsightly quarter inch pins. You learn to live with it.


More seriously, the only time I rememberer "needing" a 1/8th chisel was when chopping a spine slot for a backsaw handle.

Tools, yes. Both planes and saws.

I'd imagine someone making small drawers or boxes might have use for them, but I wouldn't know, I don't make small drawers or boxes.

You could make a very serviceable chisel with any piece of 1/8" stock, filing bevels on it by hand and just inserting it into a handle and hardening it in the shop. It would just have to be short, but where does one really need long narrow and thin (no such chisels exist in quantity, anyway, they'd be weak and bend or break. They're either tall and narrow if they're long or thin and narrow and short).

[David Weaver]

No hostile intent here, just quizzical. What am I missing here?



Vintage chisels. O1 is sort of like a substandard version of the plainest of steels. If you could find chisels that were made of the stuff that files and razors were made of about 1900, that would be ideal. It would actually be very similar to good quality white steel japanese chisels. Vintage razors made in NY (and I'm sure elsewhere in the US) are as good of steel as anything I have seen anywhere. They are super high carbon, super pure and have decent flexbility at high hardness and they take a super super fine edge. They would make superb chisels at hardness just off of where the razors and files are.

I'm one of the three (so far) who just really has no interest at all in pm v11 chisels...I have used enough vintage stuff that I just don't. Not vintage stanley stuff from the 1930s, but vintage vintage, along with the modern japanese white steel stuff, which feels an awful lot like vintage cranked up a notch in hardness. I would only be interested in abrasion resistant steel for chisels if I was using them to plane.

[Jim Palmer]

I intended the 3/16th as a joke. I can't remember the last time I thought of a chisel by its nominal measurement when actually working with one. I would tend to lay out joinery that fits the chisels I have. I don't have a 1/8" chisel and can't imagine why I would need one (barring me discovering one in a drawer somewhere). If I did need one I would probably go into my kitchen and grind a little flat on the end of an ice pick before I ordered one for $70.


Precisely and the same would be the case if I lacked a chisel size or needed a fish tailed chisel sized for a specific purpose. There's no shame in grabbing an inexpensive - old or new - plain carbon steel chisel and converting it via a touch of judicious grinding for a specific role.

Yes, I know tool adaptations take a little time, but basic tool fettling needn't be beyond the scope of existing skills and the time taken with modifications tends to be far less than the time spent shopping, making one's mind up and awaiting delivery.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi David

Don't forget .... one of the features of the PM-V11 steel is not just the promise of a longer lasting edge (and it does deliver here), but also a finer edge. The nature of PM steel is that the grain is finer and probably similar in this respect to the vintage steel you love. Perhaps this aspect should be reviewed by someone with a long history of vintage HC steel use (and who can ignore the different designs, per se).

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Charlie Stanford]

Agree with you on the maintenance. I don't care much for socket chisels though.

[Dave Anderson NH]

Admittedly my needs are for special uses, but I use a 3/16 chisel regularly, in fact more than a 1/4" or 3/8". One of my friends who does a lot of string inlay uses a 1/8" chisel on almost every project and uses a 1/16" chisel even more. It all comes down to what types of work you do.

[Roger Myers]

For my string inlay I actually use a 1/32"chisel from Blue Spruce, which I love. It replaced one I had ground from a vintage beater. I also have a set of Blue Spruce dovetail chisels which are terrific. For most of my paring I use a vintage set of Greenlee that I have had for over 30 years. I do have a set of PMv11 on order which will be used for chopping. Add to this a couple of dozen vintage chisels (Buck and similar) which I use for a varietymof tasks. Imtried a friends set of the Veritas, liked them a lot and now just waiting for the backorder to be filled.
With my tools split between school and my main shop, this doesn't seem like too many chisels at all.
Roger

[peter gagliardi]

In response to Jim Neeley, like I said, the Barr chisels hold an edge- although a much, much keener edge ever so slightly
shorter than the LN, but sharpening is miserable. Sharpening and grinding are two different operations in my book. I expect to be able to sharpen a chisel in about 15-20 seconds period. Any more and you've just created another job. Now, factor in that A2 has to be sharpened at a much steeper angle to hold the edge it has, which, like it or not creates more physical work for the same amount of chopping - less penetration per mallet blow. The huge advantage here is a good carbon steel edge is already at optimal grind for chopping, and is very very good for paring . Less effort to sharpen + less effort for achieved results = job done= more money in my pocket= home run in my book!!

[David Weaver]

Hi David

Don't forget .... one of the features of the PM-V11 steel is not just the promise of a longer lasting edge (and it does deliver here), but also a finer edge. The nature of PM steel is that the grain is finer and probably similar in this respect to the vintage steel you love. Perhaps this aspect should be reviewed by someone with a long history of vintage HC steel use (and who can ignore the different designs, per se).

Regards from Perth

Derek

The edge isn't as fine as the better vintage steel nor is it as fine as white steel (which for practical purposes is not much different than the finest vintage steel).

It isn't just particle size (it's not submicron particles) but the ability of an abrasive to uniformly abrade an edge sub particle size and the condition of the edge straight off the stones (whether or not it holds a wire edge or if all of that sharpened off flotsam leaves the edge easily and on its own, even without the finest stones).

I've only got one V11 blade, it's on my shooter, which makes it difficult to tell how good it actually is (shooting hardwood is hard on any iron), but off the stones, it doesn't match the vintage razors I have, nor the white steel chisels I have. It's not as keen and it's more picky about the sharpening medium.

None of the vintage (truly vintage, not 80 years old) or white steel chisels I have leave me wanting anything, they can be maintained in normal work (DTs, HBDTs...I just can't think of much else where you do a lot of chopping) just with a finish stone, and they have an aesthetic that I just find very lacking on the LV chisels.

While it's not true for everyone, I can usually find nice examples of the vintage chisels (forged bolsters, etc) for about $10 here.

Where I see the promise might be for the V11 (for me) would be in a smoother iron. So far, I haven't found a more favorable smoother iron than the tsunesaburo blue steel iron, in that it leaves a very nice surface like a fresh iron through all points of wear, but is very easy to sharpen on any modern stone.