Finally picked a direction.... for now.

[John Sanford]

For the last several weeks, now that the ice at the bottom of my driveway has melted and my motorcycle is out of the garage, I've been circling around trying to figure out what direction I want to take in my woodworking. The current SawStop promotion has certainly added additional complications to the matter. I have 240v power available now, so visions of SawStops and/or Euro-Sliders, big honkin' Bandsaws and Euro Jointer-Planers have been dancing in my head.

Yet, the upfront cost of those tools gives me pause, as does the space requirements of some. So, I took a look at my list of tools that I'd like to acquire (go ahead, admit it, spec'ing, equipping and setting up shop is as much a hobby for some folks as actually working wood, although I'm not quite to that point), and top of the list is a stout bench.

So, Lee Valley has gotten a large chunk of fundage, as has Benchcrafted, with bones tossed to Blue Spruce Toolworks and Lost Art Press. I anticipate having books, tools and benchbits trickling in from now to early May. (Yes, I am nibbling at the PM-V11 fruit). By the time the box from Benchcrafted darkens my doorstep, I expect to have my shop back in operation, with my "backwall" built. The tools will no longer be residing in scattered boxes, and I'll have a clear accounting of what tools I do have, along with some recent additions that my father gave me before he passed.

I plan to do a benchbuild series, building a slightly larger Split-Top Roubo, either all maple, or possibly maple with a jatoba foundation.

I'll not be going full Neander, but after the bench is done, I'm going to minimize the use of the tailed apprentices, especially where joinery is concerned.

All this leads to a question: We frequently read of woodworkers who "Go Neander", first idling, and then selling off their power tools to work primarily or exclusively with handtools. What of those who go the other way?

[Jim Koepke]

All this leads to a question: We frequently read of woodworkers who "Go Neander", first idling, and then selling off their power tools to work primarily or exclusively with handtools. What of those who go the other way?

There is no shame in doing either. The only shame is in not doing anything.

jtk

[Zach Dillinger]

Well said Jim.

[David Weaver]

Have some sort of thickness planer and either a tablesaw or a bandsaw.

I have built projects entirely or nearly entirely with hand work, up to stuff about 4x3, but there will be times when you have to choose between expensive half-qualify commercial furniture or making something yourself fairly quickly.

I started off all power tools. I've sold off my TS and never really had a useable jointer, but kept the rest of the stuff and got a track saw, even though I don't use them much. I will spray anything that I make in volume or anything that I intend to rub out. I would suggest that there's not much more practical for quick finishing than keeping some kind of spray rig, even if it's just a $100 HF compressor, an in-line filter and a cheap gun with a true diaphragm regulator.

[David Barnett]

All this leads to a question: We frequently read of woodworkers who "Go Neander", first idling, and then selling off their power tools to work primarily or exclusively with handtools. What of those who go the other way?

Other way. I started with only hand tools and had everything one would need to use only hand tools from rough lumber to finished product. I was quickly disabused of any notions of purism or romance of using hand tools alone when I realized just how much grunt labor and time was spent getting to a point where one could finesse the details, do the interesting stuff. My first concession to rational modernism was a bandsaw, soon followed by a jointer, planer and finally, a tablesaw. I would never look back.

I still stuck mouldings with moulding planes, cut rebates and did almost all joinery by hand—I did cut some tenons on the bandsaw—but all the details, carving and finishing were and still are hand operations. Do I care about biscuit joinery, power mortisers or drum sanders? Nope. I do like freehand contouring and sculpting with angle grinders and large die grinders, however.

It's a personal choice—I'd much rather use my skills at joining, fitting and finishing than dimensioning lumber, ripping boards or resawing veneers by hand—simple as that. This frees me up to do more skilled and value-added hand tools operations for woodworking or for my several other crafts. Works for me.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

I work entirely neander by necessity, with the exception of a tiny, junky tabletop drill press for a few applications.

The day I have the space (and the money, I suppose) a real drill press and a bandsaw are following me home, as well as a powered planer.

[Roy Griggs]

I started as a mixed woodworker when I was in High School, my tools were neander but sometimes I got to use the power tools in my fathers shop (owned by his employer).
Then spent years building a collection of power tools, mostly bought by SWMBO as presents. Once again I'm back to handtools as a matter of choice. I'll keep my power tools for those jobs to boring or labor intensive and to ease my burden as I get older. The value of my power tools on the second hand market wouldn't buy a good plane but they would cost me a fortune to replace if I needed to re-aquire them. Besides I have a hard time parting with tools, any tools.

[Steve Q Brown]

I draw the line [of respect, and/or appreciation] at those who 'collect' vs. those who produce. Sure, one may have the means and wherewithal to purchase the finest late-model whosit or whatsit, but are you using it? Are you actually using those tools to make things that you (or anyone else) can appreciate? One of the most disappointing things I've seen here, and what kept me from becoming a member of SMC for years, was the vast (vocal) majority here who seem to be tool collectors more than woodworkers or craftsmen. I'll be the first in line to vouch that tool collecting is as fine a pastime as any other and that spending money on hand tools is a worthwhile expenditure, but I'll also heartily debate that it is a frivolous endeavor limiting access to those same tools that might otherwise be used by a true craftsman who doesn't have the means to place the highest bid on ebay or buy high dollar tools from vendors who are able to command top dollar because so many some-timer/hobbyists with a dot com salary want to play wood worker and make funky bird houses (or nothing at all) with $1000 worth of planes (not to say that you're not entitled to do that).
I've been fortunate (in some regards) to have been 'there' and 'back again' vis-a-vis power/hand tools. I began with hand tools at age 13-14 on the weekends with my dad, [never took wood shop in school, only auto and metal shop], then after high school progressed to a decade and a half working for/with/and as a residential remodel and addition contractor using mainly power tools. Each can provide their own benefits to the work, end product, and the user, surely, but there seems [to me] to be an intangible quality to working by hand and eye that machines just can't match.
To get back on track..By all means, it's your money and certainly you're free to make up your own mind.
Personally, I use my bandsaw quite a bit, I might even get a second for sequential tasks- maybe bigger, smaller, I haven't decided. It replaces a handsaw for most all work except joinery for me; I have a nice little 8" thin japanese pull saw and a spined gent's saw for that (as well as a few others). The other power tool I'm a fan of is the drill press, I have a floor model, been thinking about a second benchtop unit for reasons similar to those above.
I also currently have 2 10" contractor type tablesaws (dewalt and makita) (3, if you count an 8" makita), and a 10" unisaw, and I could live without all of them. Sure there's the occasional long rip or long rabbet, but for a lot less noise and not much more time I could do it with a bandsaw and/or hand tools.
To sum up...my 2 cents concurs with some previous posts- bandsaw, drill press, and hand tools. Expand as necessary. Or at least acknowledge you're buying the tools because you *want* them, not because you *need* them.


<edit> @ previous poster, what is SWMBO? From the context I'd assume something like a wife or significant other... If I were to guess I'd say She Wears My Balls Outside...amirite?

[John Dykes]

Steve,

It's "She Who Must Be Obeyed," but yea.... yours works just as well.....

- j

[Chen-Tin Tsai]

I was in the same situation a couple of years ago. Due to space constraints, I thought I wanted to go mostly neander to do my woodworking. I built a smallish bench (36"x15") or so and it worked well for small scale projects (boxes, small tools, nicknacks, etc). I did most of my stock processing (rough cutting, milling, sizing) and joinery by hand and only used the junky tablesaw I had for cutting plywood pieces or if I had a lot of rips to make. But when I got to working on my first "real" project (African mahogany hallway table), I realized the limitations because I had to mill, joint and flatten the table top, taper the legs and cut a lot (to me, at the time) of mortise and tenon joints so I ended up buying a planer and using a router to make the bulk cuts. Now that I've built a slightly larger bench and have built a few more things, I realized that a lot of ripping, or resawing, or thicknessing is a super pain to do by hand, and I'd rather spend my precious shop time doing skilled work rather than the grunt work of rough stock processing.

I guess my progress is to start neander and build a few projects, taking note of what went well, what could have been made more enjoyable with a few electrons. Now, I have a bandsaw to rip and resaw, a lunchbox planer for thicknessing, and a drill press for drilling a lot of repetitive holes. Everything else I still do by hand because it's more enjoyable and safer to me. To me, this is the most efficient use of my limited shop time and what gives me the most enjoyment. I'm certain that in the future, I would probably end up with a bigger bandsaw to do the heavy duty resawing, a bigger planer to do more thicknessing, and probably a bigger bench (like a 96"x24" Roubo) but will keep the jack and jointer planes for flattening, my bench hooks and saw bench for sizing cuts and my dovetail and carcase saws for joinery.

[Kees Heiden]

Steve, first you say you don't respect the collector types, then a few lines further down in your post you confess to own 4 tablesaws. Now, something doesn't add up there...

(just teasing a little, nothing serious)


BTW, I don't think the collectors are the bad guys. If it weren't for them creating market value for old tools, a lot of it would have been thrown away. Maybe the scale has tipped though, because second hand tool prices seem to be rising to the sky, even here in Europe.

[Steve Q Brown]

Steve, first you say you don't respect the collector types, then a few lines further down in your post you confess to own 4 tablesaws. Now, something doesn't add up there...

(just teasing a little, nothing serious)


BTW, I don't think the collectors are the bad guys. If it weren't for them creating market value for old tools, a lot of it would have been thrown away. Maybe the scale has tipped though, because second hand tool prices seem to be rising to the sky, even here in Europe.

I was wondering how long it would take for someone to pick that up ;).
As I said, I was fortunate (in some ways) and have been given many many power tools, including all those I've mentioned above. The only machine purchases I've made have been a chopsaw, colt router, jigsaw, cordless drill/drivers, shop-vac, and an oscillating spindle sander. My former boss-turned business partner was a generous tool collector, as was my dad who passed away last year.
I may have mis-spoke when I implied a lack of respect to certain individuals before- I believe absolutely that they are to be respected as individuals pursuing their happiness (and having the means to do so)... I was speaking to a grander sense where I hold in higher esteem as a craftsman or woodworker one who makes nice things from raw materials with a few tools, as opposed to one who has a full collection of bedrock planes and disston saws they bought on ebay but can't tell the difference between cedar and redwood, and hasn't used those tools to work wood to the point of a completed project.

I can see a glimpse of what you're saying re: collectors keeping the market alive, however.. as a late-coming west-coaster, I'm priced out of the market of buying many tools I would actually use because people who won't use them (certainly not to the same degree) are willing and able to pay more. If the first wave of 'money-no-object' types wasn't artificially inflating the prices, many of these $80 or $100 old planes might be $20, which is reasonable.
So, like our woodworking predecessors with limited means/accessibility, I'll just have to make do with tools I have, and/or l can make for myself. And that's fine, it is what it is. But I'd like to spread the word that the 'collectors' could in many cases be described as greedy hoarders, making real craftspeople's work more difficult by limiting access to fine tools with real value *as tools*, not as equity.

Apologies for the hijack.
OP- I appreciate that you're going bench-first, and moving towards making a working shop. That is to be commended amidst the continuum of wood working and tool enthusiasts.

[Zach Dillinger]

I was wondering how long it would take for someone to pick that up ;).
As I said, I was fortunate (in some ways) and have been given many many power tools, including all those I've mentioned above. The only machine purchases I've made have been a chopsaw, colt router, jigsaw, cordless drill/drivers, shop-vac, and an oscillating spindle sander. My former boss-turned business partner was a generous tool collector, as was my dad who passed away last year.
I may have mis-spoke when I implied a lack of respect to certain individuals before- I believe absolutely that they are to be respected as individuals pursuing their happiness (and have the means to do so)... I was speaking to a grander sense where I hold in higher esteem as a craftsman or woodworker one who makes nice things from raw materials with a few tools, as opposed to one who has a full collection of bedrock planes and disston saws they bought on ebay but can't tell the difference between cedar and redwood, and hasn't used those tools to work wood to the point of a completed project.

I can see a glimpse of what you're saying re: collectors keeping the market alive, however.. as a late-coming west-coaster, I'm priced out of the market of buying many tools I would actually use because people who won't use them (certainly not to the same degree) are willing and able to pay more. If the first wave of 'money-no-object' types wasn't artificially inflating the prices, many of these $80 or $100 old planes might be $20, which is reasonable.
So, like our woodworking predecessors with limited means/accessibility, I'll just have to make do with tools I have, and/or l can make for myself. And that's fine, it is what it is. But I'd like to spread the word that the 'collectors' could in many cases be described as greedy hoarders, making real craftspeople's work more difficult by limiting access to fine tools with real value *as tools*, not as equity.

Apologies for the hijack.
OP- I appreciate that you're going bench-first, and moving towards making a working shop. That is to be commended amidst the continuum of wood working and tool enthusiasts.

And what about those of us who do both, i.e. hoard high quality vintage tools but still build high end furniture? Huh? What about us??

I'm just picking on you. I totally understand the sentiment.

[David Weaver]

Steve, first you say you don't respect the collector types, then a few lines further down in your post you confess to own 4 tablesaws. Now, something doesn't add up there...

(just teasing a little, nothing serious)


BTW, I don't think the collectors are the bad guys. If it weren't for them creating market value for old tools, a lot of it would have been thrown away. Maybe the scale has tipped though, because second hand tool prices seem to be rising to the sky, even here in Europe.

I think users are driving the increase now. I'll bet if I put a treatise out on ripping by hand and made a few videos, the price for used rip saws on ebay would go nuts -well, if I could actually get people to read it. Maybe Zach would have to write it and put it in a magazine. Anyway, it's (rip saw price) already 2x higher than what it was 5 years. Those folks probably wouldn't use their handsaws much, because it still is work to rip raw lumber, but it only takes the buying of the user crowd to raise the price, they don't have to actually use the tools much.

[David Weaver]

I was wondering how long it would take for someone to pick that up ;).
As I said, I was fortunate (in some ways) and have been given many many power tools, including all those I've mentioned above. The only machine purchases I've made have been a chopsaw, colt router, jigsaw, cordless drill/drivers, shop-vac, and an oscillating spindle sander. My former boss-turned business partner was a generous tool collector, as was my dad who passed away last year.
I may have mis-spoke when I implied a lack of respect to certain individuals before- I believe absolutely that they are to be respected as individuals pursuing their happiness (and having the means to do so)... I was speaking to a grander sense where I hold in higher esteem as a craftsman or woodworker one who makes nice things from raw materials with a few tools, as opposed to one who has a full collection of bedrock planes and disston saws they bought on ebay but can't tell the difference between cedar and redwood, and hasn't used those tools to work wood to the point of a completed project.

I can see a glimpse of what you're saying re: collectors keeping the market alive, however.. as a late-coming west-coaster, I'm priced out of the market of buying many tools I would actually use because people who won't use them (certainly not to the same degree) are willing and able to pay more. If the first wave of 'money-no-object' types wasn't artificially inflating the prices, many of these $80 or $100 old planes might be $20, which is reasonable.
So, like our woodworking predecessors with limited means/accessibility, I'll just have to make do with tools I have, and/or l can make for myself. And that's fine, it is what it is. But I'd like to spread the word that the 'collectors' could in many cases be described as greedy hoarders, making real craftspeople's work more difficult by limiting access to fine tools with real value *as tools*, not as equity.

Apologies for the hijack.
OP- I appreciate that you're going bench-first, and moving towards making a working shop. That is to be commended amidst the continuum of wood working and tool enthusiasts.

I doubt too many collectors have been buying the $100 plane market. Those are generally people who are going to use them, or at least give it a whirl.

And so far as there are people with hundreds of run of the mill bench planes, I've never met any of them who pay $100 per for their planes. Most of those collections were thrown together long before the current user run took on the market.

If you are a hand tool woodworker, I can't really think of anything that you have to buy that is really that expensive, though ($100 for a jointer with shipping, maybe, but that's it).

I bought two smoothers last year for a total of $30 together. They are exceptional (both are MF #9s). I've also bought two vintage saws in the last two days, and without shipping they totaled $34, about $56 or something with shipping. An atkins and a D8. That's a steal for the quality they are.

There is no shortage of good user tools, there are just more premium tools now, but no great reason to buy premium tools if you don't want to spend that kind of money.

[Zach Dillinger]

II'll bet if I put a treatise out on ripping by hand and made a few videos, the price for used rip saws on ebay would go nuts -well, if I could actually get people to read it. Maybe Zach would have to write it and put it in a magazine.

Not I. Now, if it were Schwarz... that's a different story!

[David Weaver]

Not I. Now, if it were Schwarz... that's a different story!

AS long as your underwear is under the pants on your furniture, so to speak, you can call yourself whatever you'd like :)

I see you've been policing endgrain flashers lately. Warms my heart :)

[Zach Dillinger]

AS long as your underwear is under the pants on your furniture, so to speak, you can call yourself whatever you'd like :)

I see you've been policing endgrain flashers lately. Warms my heart :)

I've been trying but, alas, not making much of a dent. I'll keep up the good fight! Underpants belong under the pants...that's why they call 'em "under" pants.

[Jim Matthews]

I think the concept of your time having a value frequently goes unconsidered in this calculation.

If you like using saws to rip long boards made of rock maple, then by all means - do so.
If what you like is getting shop aids built in a reasonable amount of time - a bandsaw or tracksaw is an invaluable addition to any stable of sawdust generators.

Where I draw the line is in garage space. If I can't park in the garage, there's a tool problem.
I'll buy my lumber skip planed, near to the final dimension I'm after. Planing and jointing are thankless tasks.

Unless you're building live-edge slab table, why not let someone else do the grunt work and get on with the fun part?