Tenon & Mortise

[Dominique Meuris]

I'm looking for a professional tenon & mortise machine.
Is there a machine that does both at a blink of an eye?

It should be able to make mortises of 6cm long, 1.5cm width, 6 cm deep. in feet of 10 * 10 cm

[Rick Lizek]

I'm looking for a professional tenon & mortise machine.
Is there a machine that does both at a blink of an eye?

It should be able to make mortises of 6cm long, 1.5cm width, 6 cm deep. in feet of 10 * 10 cm


a horizontal slot mortiser is what you want. You make the mortises in both rail and stile and insert premade loose tenons. It doesn't get any faster, simpler, more accurate or cheaper than that.
http://www.atlanticmach.com/standard/callout_mortiser.html

[John TenEyck]

Or the JDS MultiRouter: http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/multi-routermodel101l.aspx It'll make mortises and loose or integral tenons.

John

[Stephen Cherry]

Do you really want a mortise and tenon joint? What is the budget? Volume?

The round hole machines, such as the festool Domino, or router based machines can be fast, but what they produce is an approximation of a mortise and tenon joint with round and usually loose fitting ends. A real mortise and tenon joint has a tenon with ends that contact the top and bottom of the joint so that the force is carried mechanically by the wood. The loose fitting, round ended joints rely wholly upon the strength and stability of the glue; and history tells us that this sort of cross grained, glue only, joint can experience problems.

257674

Machines to produce a real mortise and tenon joint don't operate at the "blink of an eye", but they can be pretty fast. A shaper with tenoning discs, and a well set up table saw can cut the tenon pretty quick (on the order of a minute per tenon, once everything is set up). Basically, one cut through the shaper to form both faces of the tenon, then the table saw with a well set up fence to cut the top off.

The mortise can be cut with a hollow chisel mortiser. To cut a 15 mm hole, you would want a big, heavy, floor standing machine. That is on the order of 1 minute per mortise.


257673

[John TenEyck]

Stephen, if you check out the MultiRouter you'll find that it can cut traditional M&T joints, not just loose tenon joints, all in one nice little, portable package. IMO, loose tenon technology is far easier to get right than the separate approach of making mortises and tenons with two different machines. I hear many people say loose tenons are inferior to integral ones, yet I've never had one fail in over 25 years, including a good deal of them in chairs. The increased smoothness and precision afford by loose tenons, together with modern glues, makes a very robust and durable joint.

John

[pat warner]

"Blink of an eye"
******************************
You're not serious. Without any material prep? You're joking.
Notwithstanding, these tenons (http://patwarner.com/images/index_tenon.jpg) are cut in <45" and the mortice (http://patwarner.com/images/prc508.jpg) in <120".
How? Routers & good fixturing. The material prep takes 10x longer than the joinery cuts.

[Stephen Cherry]

Stephen, if you check out the MultiRouter you'll find that it can cut traditional M&T joints, not just loose tenon joints,

John

Does it cut a square ended hole? Do the tenon ends fit tight into the mortise? I'm certainly not going to argue that anything other than a traditional m and t is no good (I have a biscuit joiner, and would like to have a domino), but it seems to me that there are times when the traditional joint is most appropriate. For example, the original poster is using 100 mm square legs ("feet") which make me think about outdoor furniture, or at least a big table leg. It seems to me that a big, pegged mortise and tenon joint has a time proven utility.

[Greg Portland]

Do you really want a mortise and tenon joint? What is the budget? Volume?

The round hole machines, such as the festool Domino, or router based machines can be fast, but what they produce is an approximation of a mortise and tenon joint with round and usually loose fitting ends. A real mortise and tenon joint has a tenon with ends that contact the top and bottom of the joint so that the force is carried mechanically by the wood. The loose fitting, round ended joints rely wholly upon the strength and stability of the glue; and history tells us that this sort of cross grained, glue only, joint can experience problems.

257674

Machines to produce a real mortise and tenon joint don't operate at the "blink of an eye", but they can be pretty fast. A shaper with tenoning discs, and a well set up table saw can cut the tenon pretty quick (on the order of a minute per tenon, once everything is set up). Basically, one cut through the shaper to form both faces of the tenon, then the table saw with a well set up fence to cut the top off.

The mortise can be cut with a hollow chisel mortiser. To cut a 15 mm hole, you would want a big, heavy, floor standing machine. That is on the order of 1 minute per mortise.


257673 I would just add that a chain mortiser would be even faster if you're doing through mortises (or don't need a square bottom). There are some big old iron machines that can do both (chisels and chain attachments).

[Steve Milito]

Does it cut a square ended hole? Do the tenon ends fit tight into the mortise? I'm certainly not going to argue that anything other than a traditional m and t is no good (I have a biscuit joiner, and would like to have a domino), but it seems to me that there are times when the traditional joint is most appropriate. For example, the original poster is using 100 mm square legs ("feet") which make me think about outdoor furniture, or at least a big table leg. It seems to me that a big, pegged mortise and tenon joint has a time proven utility.
The JDS Multirouter does not cut a square end hole. It's a horizontal router that uses (can use or not use) templates, and the templates allow it to make tenons that tightly fit the routed mortise.

[Chris Friesen]

I'm looking for a professional tenon & mortise machine.
Is there a machine that does both at a blink of an eye?

What's your budget? For production mortising the ideal is probably a "swing chisel mortising machine" and a "single end tenoner".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJUJ796jxls

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zd_V-zGP8vU


For small-scale production use the Festool Domino XL might be worth looking at...if you need bigger than that then a horizontal slot mortiser is your next best bet.

[Stephen Cherry]

What's your budget? For production mortising the ideal is probably a "swing chisel mortising machine" and a "single end tenoner".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJUJ796jxls

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zd_V-zGP8vU


For small-scale production use the Festool Domino XL might be worth looking at...if you need bigger than that then a horizontal slot mortiser is your next best bet.

That first machine is just CRAZY fast.

[Dominique Meuris]

Well the production would be around 15 table's a month.
And for the preparation, I would glue around 200 tablefeet at once.

The Festool Domino is an ideal machine for quick connections for parts of a big furniture piece. But for a table It's really not the thing i'm looking for.

I was thinking of using a chain mortiser, and making the tenons on my moulder. But I'm not sure if this is the fastest way to go ...
It should be a hidden mortise & tenon that's pinned from the inside. and not completly trough. Perhaps that can be done with a domino aswell.


And thank you for all the responses so far, and sorry for my grammatical faults ...

[Dominique Meuris]

And for the table's.

All of our table's are out of massive oak, topplate of 35mm.
Feet of around 80-100mm, crosslists of 35mm thick, 80mm heigth.

On the picture you can see an example.
http://img705.imageshack.us/img705/5080/t40rw.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/705/t40rw.jpg/)

After making the mortises, the complete feet structure will be put in my pneumatic pressing bench.

[John TenEyck]

Does it cut a square ended hole? Do the tenon ends fit tight into the mortise? I'm certainly not going to argue that anything other than a traditional m and t is no good (I have a biscuit joiner, and would like to have a domino), but it seems to me that there are times when the traditional joint is most appropriate. For example, the original poster is using 100 mm square legs ("feet") which make me think about outdoor furniture, or at least a big table leg. It seems to me that a big, pegged mortise and tenon joint has a time proven utility.

No, but you can easily make them square ended with a couple of whacks with a chisel. If you want traditional, you can have it. Or you could just use the round ended mortises and tight fitting tenons. I don't see any real difference. And you can pin either.

John

[Kevin Jenness]

For round end mortises and tenons in a production mode, there are automatic slot mortisers and tenoners like the Balestrini line. For square ended joints, oscillating chisel mortisers like Maka are very fast and accurate, combined with a tenoner or sliding table shaper plus a hauncher or tablesaw setup for trimming the tenon edges. Inserted tenons, if accurately fitted, can be virtually as strong as traditional mortise and tenons with only one setup aside from milling lengths of tenon stock and cutting to length.

[John Piwaron]

Or the JDS MultiRouter: http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/multi-routermodel101l.aspx It'll make mortises and loose or integral tenons.

John

$2,700 That's a lot of money.

[John Piwaron]

"Blink of an eye"
******************************
You're not serious. Without any material prep? You're joking.
Notwithstanding, these tenons (http://patwarner.com/images/index_tenon.jpg) are cut in <45" and the mortice (http://patwarner.com/images/prc508.jpg) in <120".
How? Routers & good fixturing. The material prep takes 10x longer than the joinery cuts.

Nice looking pieces. Very nice. I'm going back to chisels. :)

How about some shameless self promotion? Is your method to make both of those both spelled out in detail in one of your books?

[John TenEyck]

$2,700 That's a lot of money.

It does pretty much any kind of joint you can think of, fast and accurately, all in one compact machine. I don't have one but I sure would like to. Used ones sell for almost as much as new, which should tell you how well they are thought of.

John

[Steve Milito]

He's only trying to produce 15 units a month. He really doesn't need something meant for a factory producing 15 units a hour. A JDS MR is certainly able to handle the volume of a small furniture shop. The air clamps would be handy. The only concern I would have in this application is whether it is suited for the size of the pieces he producing. I think it would excel in a shop that was producing a similar volume of chairs, I just don't know how well it would do for large table legs.

[Kevin Jenness]

Steve, you are right that the original poster does not need high production machinery for his current output. He asked for a machine that would produce a sizeable mortice and tenon in the blink of an eye. For a true mortice and tenon for rail/post joints, I think the round end automatic mortiser and tenoner most closely approach that. For what he is doing now, I would prefer making inserted tenon joints with a relatively heavy manual slot mortiser like a Bini or Felder over the multi router for stability and lack of noise, and if I could afford it I would use an automatic slot mortiser for better precision. A chain mortiser in good repair can stab out accurate mortises very quickly, but they are typically oriented like a hollow chisel mortiser and are not suited to mortising the end of a rail as is necessary for inserted tenon joinery. I assume that is what Dominique was suggesting when he alluded to making tenons with his moulder.

[pat warner]

"How about some shameless self promotion? Is your method to make both of those both spelled out in detail in one of your books?"
*********************
Tenons yes, mortices no.

[Frank Drew]

Stephen,

I love a slot mortiser and consider it a huge improvement over a hollow chisel mortiser, but it never occurred to me not to make the tenon fit the mortise at the ends, either by squaring the mortise ends (rather slow), or rounding the ends of the tenon (much faster, in my experience.) Of course, if you use loose tenons in a predictable production situation, you can run tenon stock with rounded edges by the mile and then cut to length as needed.

A Maka or an oscilating slot mortiser would approach "blink of an eye" fast, as noted by others.

[Dominique Meuris]

Just bought myself a hollow chisel mortiser in an auction that's capable of drilling holes of 6-25mm.
The tenon's will be made with my moulder.

Already got a long belt sander, but going to save some money for a wide belt sander.


Just ordered myself 5m³ of first grade European Oak :D


And I talk about 15table's a month, but this doesn't include the coffeetable's.

In total it would be around 15-30 pieces a month, and considering the high wages in Belgium I think It's best to have good equipment.

[Kevin Jenness]

Dominique,

I think I misunderstood your plan to make tenons with your moulder. In the US a moulder is a 4 or 5 head machine for running lineal profiles. I thought that you were proposing to use inserted or spline tenons made in lengths and inserted in mating mortises in leg and rail. I was under the impression that chain mortisers were set up like chisel mortisers for edge rather than end mortising. Are you going to make integral tenons on your rails with what the Brits call a spindle moulder and Yanks call a shaper, i.e.a single vertical spindle with stacked and spaced cutters? In which case you are on the right track. Do you have a sliding table shaper? How will you cut the haunches or notches in your tenons?

[Stephen Cherry]

Dominique,

I think I misunderstood your plan to make tenons with your moulder. In the US a moulder is a 4 or 5 head machine for running lineal profiles. I thought that you were proposing to use inserted or spline tenons made in lengths and inserted in mating mortises in leg and rail. I was under the impression that chain mortisers were set up like chisel mortisers for edge rather than end mortising. Are you going to make integral tenons on your rails with what the Brits call a spindle moulder and Yanks call a shaper, i.e.a single vertical spindle with stacked and spaced cutters? In which case you are on the right track. Do you have a sliding table shaper? How will you cut the haunches or notches in your tenons?

That's what I'm thinking also, a spindle moulder is a shaper. At least that's what scmi calls them. As for the sliding table, I had one on my shaper, but I took it off and prefer to use a 4" bearing with 8" tenoning discs and a jig that clamps the board and rides on the bearing, and provides a backup piece for the cut. You can set this jig up to be the right length to cut the shoulder to shoulder length of the table apron. The apron is rough cut to length, placed in the jig, and the jig rides on the bearing to cut the tenons. The part that I like is that the only setup is the spindle height. You just make sure the fence is out of the way. I have this jig, and could post some pictures if it would be helpful.

[Dominique Meuris]

I'm sorry but what I mean is indeed a spindle moulder that will be used for the tenons.
This is the spindle moulder that will be used
http://www.tendotools.com/documents/catalog/freesmachines/freesmachine-tt1003t9ed2.html?lang=en

And this is the mortiser
http://www.tendotools.com/documents/catalog/boormachines/vierkantgatboormachine-mortiser-tt250.769ed2.html?lang=en


What do you mean with the haunches or notches?


I will probably reïnforce the tenon with 2 dowels, or perhaps 2 small domino's from the inside.

[Rick Markham]

If you are only doing that many mortise and tenons, you might consider the Leigh FMT. For a small production shop it is really hard to argue with the price for what you can accomplish rather quickly and accurately. I just used mine to do 20 mortises and matching tenons. IMHO you really can't beat the thing, setting it up is really quick too. It's worth a look. I love my FMT and I own a domino... apples and oranges... they both have their place.

These guys are right, if you are a full scale shop making 15 tables a day then invest the money in the dedicated machinery. I will be honest, I want a hollow chisel mortiser, just because who can argue with being able to make square holes :D

[Kevin Jenness]

By haunches I mean the shoulder cuts at the edges of the tenons. Presumably your mortises don't extend to the ends of the legs. so the tenons need to be notched there, as well as at the opposite edge to provide a fourth shoulder to hide the mortise This can be done on the bandsaw or with a dado head on the tablesaw. In traditional work the mortise might be continued at a diminished depth to the end of the leg and the tenon cut with a longer shoulder at that point to eliminate twisting of the top of the rail. but that is rarely done. I don't feel pinning a well fitted tenon is necessary, but I would definitely add a corner block glued and screwed to the leg and rails.

The shaper in the picture looks like a good choice for cutting the tenon cheeks. I have found that the key to eliminating tearout at the end of the cut is to use a fresh backer each time. I slide a loose strip in between the workpiece and the fence and clamp all three securely together. There is a tendency for the cutterhead to suck the rail in, so reliable clamping is essential. The Aigner type fence with a safety bar for the uncut tenon to ride against would be a good failsafe.