Japanese marking gauges and hammers

[Matthew N. Masail]

I'm thinking of getting a few of these gauges. maybe 2 regular ones and one mortice ones. I have a single wheel gauge but don't bond with it so well. I think I'll like a cutting blade much better.

what do you think of these type of gauges? has anyone tried the ones from TFJ ?

Also, I'd really like (not need) a Durma style hammer for my Koyomaichi chisels... it feels kind of disrespectful (and no fun) hitting them with a nail\claw hammer. what size do
you recomend, maybe 375gram?

Thanks,
Matthew

[Dave Beauchesne]

Matthew:

I cannot recommend appropriately on the Japanes tools, but have a question on the wheel gauge.

I have both a Glen Drake and LV wheel gauge: I thoght they were great, but during a class I took, it was suggested that the wheels
be sharpened - the Glen Drake was reasonable sharp, the LV less so, but after a quick honing, WOW, what a difference.

Just remove the wheel, place it flat side down on your 1000 grit stone after blackening the face with a magic marker. with light pressure, give it a few figure eights, stop, turn it 90 degrees, a few more figure eights, turn 90 degrees till you have completed the cycle, check for remaining black ink - if it is all gone, take the wheel to the 8000 to polish it in the same way.

There won't be much metal to remove, so less is better and the end result is a much improved tool.

Good Luck!

Dave B

[Matthew N. Masail]

Thanks for the tip David ! :) I have the LV. I'll give it a try. is the wheel supposed to turn in use?

P.S

I'm still intrested in the Japanese ones

[Chris Griggs]

Is the wheel supposed to turn in use?



No. I made this mistake for the first year I had mine. Its supposed to be locked in place and it works better that way. I agree with the honing...that helps too.

[David Weaver]

375 or 450 are both fine for the hammers. I think 375 is a bit light if you think you're going to chop much in hardwood, but that's just an opinion.

I think when you get your hammers, you'll be a bit disappointed in how different they are vs. a regular claw hammer, unless your claw hammer has a loose head.

I'd just as soon have a good ball pein hammer to hit japanese chisels with vs. japanese hammers, and eventually graduated toward using one of the urethane mallets on japanese tools instead of the steel hammers because the noise bothers me when you're doing something like mortises or half blinds, especially if you're working with a mild headache already.

I also prefer the properly set up veritas marking gauges to any of the reasonably priced japanese gauges. I haven't used any of the japanese gauges that are mondo dollars, they are collector's items or connaisseur's versions of something that to me should either be inexpensive or something you make on your own (if you want a cutting gauge or knife marking gauge, you can easily make a wedged version out of scrap with a piece of spring steel). While the inexpensive ones are more interesting to look at than an LV gauge, in practice they are less convenient.

For mortises, I use a rosewood pin gauge that I got somewhere on sale, one with a threaded adjuster. I also find it faster and more convenient to use than the japanese mortise gauge.

What I'm getting to, is that you might want to spend your dollars elsewhere if it counts, because the inexpensive japanese gauges (the ones that are $25-$50 each) aren't better than what you have.

[Matthew N. Masail]

Thanks David and Chris. I noticed the wheel had to be looked ir order to stay acurate but it kinda didn't sit well with me. guess just needed to hear that.

David, I don't get what can go wrong with a gauge? the blade quality? bad wedge fit? ... I know I can make the easily, buy I have about 23209320 projects waiting..
I think I will just get a "wood is good" mallet eventually, will be good for non Japanese too. I'm glad I asked.

[David Weaver]

Well, stuff that comes at $30 retail is going to be $15 or so wholesale, and the manufacturer after putting one or two cutting irons in it isn't going to have a whole lot of budget left to make something the way you'd make it if you made it by hand, nor the way the premium japanese gauges are made where the action is very smooth and everything is quick and intuitive.

These are the two that I have.

http://www.japanwoodworker.com/product.asp?s=JapanWoodworker&pf_id=15.255&dept_id=12996

http://www.japanwoodworker.com/product.asp?s=JapanWoodworker&pf_id=15.260.2&dept_id=12996

I really can't find much good about them, and I'm not saying that just because they're inexpensive. If you look at the way the two irons fit in the mortise gauge, you can see that they're sort of free floating. I'm just not a fan. What should be made by a woodworker as smooth and quick adjusting with a quick wedge tap to lock things down or loosen them (by all means, make the japanese style if you want one, they do have positive attributes in design) just isn't there.

I couldn't make it for $15 or $20 wholesale, either. What is substituted is screws and other little soft metal bits.

If I were a betting man, I'd bet the kinshiro and other gauges work just like you'd expect, but they are eye-bleedingly expensive.

Maybe stu has something, I see he's got some inexpensive wedge lock gauges that offer more user satisfaction, and his prices are better than JWW as a rule (which offers no locality to you, anyway). I would be inclined to make my own if I really wanted one, but the veritas wheel gauge is great for general marking where you want a fine line and I just can't see the need. It's precise, smooth and simple.

[David Weaver]

The wood is good mallet is the one I have, btw. I like it a lot, better than anything else I've used or turned. I wanted to believe that the mallets I've turned would be better and nicer to use, just because they look nicer, but they are not.

[Matthew N. Masail]

Lol I know that feeling. until I made a plane that is as good, I lightly resented my woodriver no. 3, and tried not to use it. but I still love it, and still plane to make the 'right' planes for me. . but it would be hard and probebly no worth it to make a mallet like that... which weight did you get?


I hear your point about the gauge loud and clear. I was planing on ordering from Stu, he has some really cheap ones that look nice, but I think I'll just make my own and use jigsaw blades to make cutters. I'll like them better in the end, I REALLY like using my own tools. the mortise one will take some thought.... Thanks for the advice!

[David Weaver]

Stu's are wedged, and I'm sure he's tried them. They could be 180 degrees away from what I described with the ones with metal fixtures.

I hate to say it with the mortise gauges, but this is the only one I've used that I really like:

http://www.hartvilletool.com/product/2788/traditional-mortise-and-marking-gauges

Somehow I ended up with three (of this type, among others that I've found cheaply, like a stanley 98 gauge, etc). Of the wooden ones, I have this one, and one each of the rosewood and beech versions that don't have the screw feed. Both of those have tightened up a lot and it is a real bear to move the brass slide without the threaded gadgetry.

If I was going to try to make one, I'd probably make the style that has pins on separate arms and was tightened by a wedge. I still like the rosewood style the best, though, wanted to like the stanley 98 more, because it looks way cooler and because I found one for about $10, but it is what it is.

[Christian Castillo]

David,

I've never used a pin style gauge before ( I have Lee Valley wheel gauges), do you just use that mortise gauge with the edge of the pins having a conical profile, or do you sharpen the pins so that they are knife edged? I am considering buying a LV Dual marking gauge, but your opinion has me considering trying a more traditional mortise gauge design out.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

A trick I've picked up from reading Peter Follansbees writing (and he may have been writing about Jenny Alexander's gauge) was that a fixed gauge works great for mortises - most of the time I'm using a mortise gauge, I'm marking the same width (1/4" or 3/8") and most of the time I'm marking the same distance in from the face. So the gauge they showed was an l shaped piece of a wood (like a scratch stock body almost) with two nails jabbed through it. Dead nuts simply to make, and if that solves the majority of your mortise-gauge marking needs, then the few times you need something else, grab two normal gauges. I think Bob from the Logan cabinet shop also advocated a similar approach, making multiple "french style" wedged gauges (you can knock these out really quick, especially if you're okay using a dowel for the bar) or extra bars for one gauge head with pins set to match the mortise chisels you use.

Just another approach.

I also second Dave B's comments on sharpening the cutters on your gauges. And it took me a little while to realize that quick three light strokes where more accurate than one heavy handed stroke with those things.

[David Weaver]

David,

I've never used a pin style gauge before ( I have Lee Valley wheel gauges), do you just use that mortise gauge with the edge of the pins having a conical profile, or do you sharpen the pins so that they are knife edged? I am considering buying a LV Dual marking gauge, but your opinion has me considering trying a more traditional mortise gauge design out.

You might like LV's more if you like the wheel types. I filed the pins on my single pin gauges, but I left the pins stock on the mortise gauge, it drags on the diagonal just fine. It's definitely less precise than the LV gauges but I like it better because it's a little easier to strike fatter lines that are easy to see.

[Stanley Covington]

A difficult question.

The inexpensive gauges at TFJ will do the job just fine.

The best Japanese marking gauge is by Kinshiro. His stuff is expensive. He has retired, so his stuff is hard to find. Therefore the prices for any remaining stock may increase.

257717

http://www.japan-tool.com/hamono/Kehiki/Kehiki.html
http://japantool-iida.com/marking/2010/05/kinshiro-marking-gauge-1.html

Several times over the years I have found myself without a good marking guage, and I find myself buying another Kinshiro two-bladed mortise gauge (aka sickle gauge). So I now have five, including a left-handed one. Very useful tools. But I still use cheapo single-beam gauges as well.

I also own gauges by Starrett, Bridge City, Glen-Drake, and Lee Valley. At the risk of flames, I find the LVV tool to be unreliable.

I love my Titemark gauge. The three Japanese craftsmen that have seen it have all ordered one for themselves from L-N in Australia.

But nothing beats a two-bladed mortise gauge like the Kinshiro because nothing does what it can do.

My policy is, whenever possible, to have a separate marking gauge for each dimension requiring a marking gauge. During the building process, I set a marking gauge to a particular dimension and leave it set. So I can always go back to that gauge and have exact repeatability without fumbling, guesswork, or remeasuring. Saves time and prevents measurement/reference plane error. But it takes more than one or two gauges.

It is easy enough to make your own beam type gauge using either wedges or screws. And if you use pins filed to a blade-like point, and match the distance between pins to your mortise chisels, it will be very effective indeed. But the inexpensive gauges at TFJ are a great place to start.

Hammers (gennou). Hitting a good Japanese chisel with a claw hammer gives me the creeps. Besides the irrelevance of the claw, there is a good reason not to, at least in the case of heavy banging. Most hammers have faces cast or ground convex. This shape is hard on the chisel's wooden handle. Japanese gennou have two faces as you know: A flat face, which is used to strike the chisel, and a convex face for compressing wood fibers ("kigoroshi" Maybe David can tell us what they call this operation in English). If you like your chisels, I recommend using a hammer with a flat face. I think you will find it gives you more control too. And it doesn't need to be Japanese pattern to be effective.

Non-Japanese often like to use brass mallets, or urethane mallets or wood mallets to strike their chisels. Nothing wrong with this, but it is not the most efficient method as a softer hammer wastes energy and time and there is arguably some loss of fine control. But this is the Japanese tradition, and no one will laugh at you in the States for using a clown hammer. In the Japanese tradition, one matches the weight/shape of the hammer to the chisel to the wood. So depending on the kind of work you do, you might need four or five gennou of different weights and shapes.

Then again, I don't follow Japanese tradition slavishly either. For instance, it is common for a craftsman to use the same gennou to both strike his chisel and adjust his plane blade. Over time this mushrooms the plane blade and dings the wooden body. I don't like this, so whenever practical I use a small wooden mallet to adjust my plane blades. Some people think I am weird, but blacksmiths love me for it.

There are many shapes of hammers. The Daruma style is named after a Chinese (Indian?) Buddhist priest named Bohdi Dharma (in Japan anyway) who, according to the legend, meditated for so long his arms and legs disappeared and he became a stubby round thing. Daruma hammers are relatively stubby, of course, and thought by many craftsmen in Japan to be clunky looking things. I must agree, but like an ugly dog, they are easy to become fond of. Also, from a physics viewpoint, at the same weight, they are not quite as resistant to twist, and are a bit harder to control, than the typical gennou hammer with a longer body. I know this is not intuitive, but it is true. The Daruma hammer is loved by joiners and other trades that do delicate, precise work, but not by carpenters that chop deep/wide/quick-n-dirty mortises. In fact, I have heard of guys being laughed at by carpenters for bringing a daruma hammer to a jobsite. But that's fine; the daurma is more of a workshop hammer anyway.

The way my teacher (he was a joiner) explained it to me was that, when used properly, it should feel like the chisel is sucking at the daruma hammer face, and that when they meet, it should almost feel like hammer and chisel stick together. No rebound, and 100% controlled energy transfer. So of course the hammer is swung relatively slowly, closer to a controlled drop than a swing. When used this way, the daruma is indispensible, or at least joiners see it that way. The point is that you should match the hammer to the type of work you do.

Handmade Japanese hammers are horribly, unreasonably expensive. This is tradition. The same sort of tradition keeps the price of nail clippers high over here. The handmade variety are better than mass-produced tools, but not enough to justify the price, in my well-informed opinion. Most of my hammers were handmade by a smith going by the moniker of Kosaburo. Very fine hammers indeed. I cherish them. They were very expensive back in the day, and now that they are sought by collectors, ridiculously so. But after a bit of filework, a properly shaped and hardened mass-produced hammer will work just as well. Don't let any goofy tool retailer tell you different. Someday you might decide to spend big bucks collecting hammers, but you would be wise to save your money for now.

The most expensive traditional handmade gennou have a low-carbon body with two high-carbon faces attached by forge welding. No doubt you have seen some mass-produced hammers that have been polished to imitate this weld line. This is a throwback to the days when high-carbon steel was very precious. The functional difference, it is said, is that the softer body cushions/modifys the impact giving the user better feedback. Also the sound they make is said to be better. Hogwash, I say. I own a handmade Kosaburo in-the-white with decorative handfiling and handcut signature and forge-welded faces. It was a present close to thirty years ago. A fine hammer; once a beautiful hammer. I use it a lot. But does it function better than my other non-laminated hammers? Not in the least.

BTW, you really need to make your own handles to get the most from a decent gennou.

Stan

[Jack Curtis]

... The best Japanese marking gauge is by Kinshiro. His stuff is expensive. He has retired, so his stuff is hard to find. Therefore the prices for any remaining stock may increase.

257717

http://www.japan-tool.com/hamono/Kehiki/Kehiki.html
http://japantool-iida.com/marking/2010/05/kinshiro-marking-gauge-1.html...

+100. I use the Kinshiro gauges (large one made by Kinshiro from Iida, small one I made from Kinshiro blades from Hiraide) for marking (single or double lines) as well as cutting. They're magic.

I agree with Matthew on the round cutters, definitely undesirable and difficult to control. A properly sharpened pin bladed marker is preferable to these, but neither of them comes close to the Kinshiro.

I get kind of sick when I think of the hundreds of dollars I spent accumulating and trying various types of gauges before trying the Kinshiro, even on some fairly good gauges like the oval bronze plated rosewood pin version. And to be honest, that rosewood gauge is a fine one, but just not nearly the quality of the Kinshiro.

[Randy Karst]

I purchased the Double Mortice Gauge that David listed above (2nd link-$45.00), after spending some time fettling it (they come a little rough at that price point), I like it. I prefer it to my Glen Drake or David Hamilton for most operations (standard and mortising), in fact so much so, that I began looking for a more refined version like the afore mentioned Kinshiro that Stanley provided a link to above (but did not want to pay that kind of $$$). I found this one at Tools From Japan and after some emails with Stu decided to give it a try. It is still pricy but may well be the next best thing to a Kinshiro at a somewhat real world price http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=356_599_609&products_id=2036. Still waiting its arrival but have high expectations. These marking gauges have great registry and cut a nice clean, precise line very easily-has become my "go to marking gauge."

Randy

[Stanley Covington]

+100. I use the Kinshiro gauges (large one made by Kinshiro from Iida, small one I made from Kinshiro blades from Hiraide) for marking (single or double lines) as well as cutting. They're magic.

I agree with Matthew on the round cutters, definitely undesirable and difficult to control. A properly sharpened pin bladed marker is preferable to these, but neither of them comes close to the Kinshiro.

I get kind of sick when I think of the hundreds of dollars I spent accumulating and trying various types of gauges before trying the Kinshiro, even on some fairly good gauges like the oval bronze plated rosewood pin version. And to be honest, that rosewood gauge is a fine one, but just not nearly the quality of the Kinshiro.

Jack:

I like a man that knows quality!

For most applications, the Kinshiro is the best, but I do like the Titemark for laying out dovetails where a very thin cross-grain mark is useful. I especially like the fact that it can be adjusted/ locked/unlocked very precisely with just one hand.

I hope someone steps up to the plate and starts making a replacement for the Kinshiro. Seems like there could be a business opportunity there somewhere.

Stan

[Wilbur Pan]

I'm thinking of getting a few of these gauges. maybe 2 regular ones and one mortice ones. I have a single wheel gauge but don't bond with it so well. I think I'll like a cutting blade much better.

what do you think of these type of gauges? has anyone tried the ones from TFJ ?

Also, I'd really like (not need) a Durma style hammer for my Koyomaichi chisels... it feels kind of disrespectful (and no fun) hitting them with a nail\claw hammer. what size do
you recomend, maybe 375gram?

Thanks,
Matthew

The inexpensive marking gauges will work. I've used them for a long time.

A 375g hammer is a good size for chopping furniture-sized mortises (1/4" or so). I have one of those and use it all the time. I used a 16 oz. (about 450g) claw hammer when chopping out mortises for my workbench. Those were 1" in width.

The more mortises I've made, the more I've come to the idea that chopping mortises is not a brute force operation, and so the weight of the hammer becomes less important than making sure you're providing a space for the chips to go. I would use a larger hammer to chop wider mortises, but I don't see myself needing to make a 1" wide mortise for a very long time.

I also have one of the Kinshiro gauges. It's really really really nice. But I wouldn't say that you have to get one of those.

[Jack Curtis]

Jack:

I like a man that knows quality!

For most applications, the Kinshiro is the best, but I do like the Titemark for laying out dovetails where a very thin cross-grain mark is useful. I especially like the fact that it can be adjusted/ locked/unlocked very precisely with just one hand.

I hope someone steps up to the plate and starts making a replacement for the Kinshiro. Seems like there could be a business opportunity there somewhere.

Yeah, I don't know whether Kinshiro made both the irons and dai (loosely translated as the wood jig holding the irons), but it sure would be nice if someone else were to pick up the work.

As to dovetails, I almost always freehand them (except for marking the base line), so any old, simple gauge will do.

[David Weaver]

As to dovetails, I almost always freehand them (except for marking the base line), so any old, simple gauge will do.

I think (hope) there are a lot of people in that camp, despite most of the literature differentiating between loose sloppy dovetails or excrutiating marking regimens. An accurate baseline, some sense of about what the slope should be on an eye basis, and some way to hide the dovetails seems a lot nicer. Geometrically heterogenous and sloppy don't have to go together (these dovetails have since disappeared from sight...always good policy).257759

[Jack Curtis]

The inexpensive marking gauges will work. I've used them for a long time.

A 375g hammer is a good size for chopping furniture-sized mortises (1/4" or so). I have one of those and use it all the time. I used a 16 oz. (about 450g) claw hammer when chopping out mortises for my workbench. Those were 1" in width.

The more mortises I've made, the more I've come to the idea that chopping mortises is not a brute force operation, and so the weight of the hammer becomes less important than making sure you're providing a space for the chips to go. I would use a larger hammer to chop wider mortises, but I don't see myself needing to make a 1" wide mortise for a very long time.

I also have one of the Kinshiro gauges. It's really really really nice. But I wouldn't say that you have to get one of those.

Nothing to argue with there, working wood is often more finesse than brute force; however, for tasks like dai making, a two pounder comes in very handy.

[Jack Curtis]

I think (hope) there are a lot of people in that camp, despite most of the literature differentiating between loose sloppy dovetails or excrutiating marking regimens. An accurate baseline, some sense of about what the slope should be on an eye basis, and some way to hide the dovetails seems a lot nicer. Geometrically heterogenous and sloppy don't have to go together (these dovetails have since disappeared from sight...always good policy).257759


Very nice looking shelf unit. As to heterogenous, it's unbelievably easy to bifurcate lines so the dovetails appear amazingly homogenous to another human eye.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Matthew

The Kinshiro is a superb marking gauge, easily my best and favourite gauge. I was very fortunate to be given one as a gift. I use it as both a single- (e.g. dovetails or tenon shoulders) and a double cutting gauge (for tenon cheeks). David suggested that Japanese gauges were difficult to set up, but all you need to do is know how! :)

The following comes from my website: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/AHandcutMorticeandTenonPrimer-BlindMortice.html

First mark across the width with the mortice chisel, as shown below.

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/AHandcutMorticeandTenonPrimer-BlindMortice_html_19759670.jpg



This is going to aid in setting up the mortice gauge. Simply place the ends of the knives (or points) in the ends of the cut. This sets up the cutting width.

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/AHandcutMorticeandTenonPrimer-BlindMortice_html_m4d3a214c.jpg



Now slide the head of the gauge against the work piece to set its depth. This completes setting up the mortice gauge.

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/AHandcutMorticeandTenonPrimer-BlindMortice_html_557894d4.jpg



Mark the mortice lines.

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/AHandcutMorticeandTenonPrimer-BlindMortice_html_m71c7128b.jpg



And then mark the tenons with the same settings.

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/AHandcutMorticeandTenonPrimer-BlindMortice_html_676286f6.jpg


I liked the shape of the Kinshiro so much that I built two single cutter versions using 3/16" HSS drill bit shafts.

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/CuttingGauges_html_m6adcaa26.jpg

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/CuttingGauges_html_54f84c56.jpg

Details of the build are here: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/CuttingGauges.html

I am going to built two "proper" Kinshiro-type mortice gauges next. Stu at Tools From Japan sells a very cheap version, the Ryuma. I have ordered a couple for the blades.

Hope all this helps.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[David Weaver]

Not difficult to set up technically, but fidgety when the gauge is of poor quality, one blade is lower than the other and they don't like to slide independently of each other without screwing around. All of those are fit and finish issues that the user can clean up somewhat (cleaning up the mating surfaces of the irons, honing/grinding the irons to equal height), and why I had guessed that a maker with taste (like kinshiro) would make sure those problems didn't exist in his gauge.

The fit of the irons to each other on the kinshiro looks very uniform and precise.

[Matthew N. Masail]

Reading this had been greatly informative and helpful, thank you all! I think I will order some of the cheap ones for tools fromTools from Japan, for the blades. I thought of this
after reading the first page but naturally Derek you have the good ideas down already :) I have a great idea as to how to get the blade to move independently and smoothly,
but I'll have to wait and see if it makes sense in actual application.


Really can't thank you guys enough.

About the Hammers, I believe the Japanese have taken the finesse of movement and method to a super refined level (in many things), that makes absolute sense. of course their is a right (read ideal) hammer for the right chisel for the right wood for the right (no ideal here :o) person. westerners have different hammers too. I have 3 plane adjusting hammer that I use for different planes. but at the same time I think it is not necessary even for a pro, as you can do A LOT with a LITTLE. basically... I have no idea what to do. Durma? Gennou? wood is good?.... I'll just wait. I want to get a Durma just to show respect to my koyomaichis, they really deserve it. also I plan to make guitars, heavy mortising is not my thing (so far).

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Matthew

When using a steel hooped chisel, such as a Japanese chisel, my preference is a gennou. Some prefer a wooden mallet and others a rubber-headed hammer, but for me the steel of a gennou creates the most direct feedback and control.A decent gennou can be had very cheaply. I have three of different weights, and two of them cost around $25. The third is a little special, and was purchased as a head, for which I built the handle (see: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/AHandleforaGennou.html )

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/AHandleforaGennou_html_m3e950d02.jpg

My preference was for a head weighing 375gm as this would suit both dovetail (Umeki Nomi) and bench (Chu-Usu-Nomi) chisels. There is also a lighter 225gm gennou for nails and a large 450gm gennou for heavy work.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Matthew N. Masail]

Derek that is beautiful! I like the warm Jarrah more than the white oak. the head is delicious !

Do find the Durma's wider face nicer than a gennou for hitting chisels?

Stu offers hammer head in bronze. stainless and regular steel. stainless dosen't apeal to me, but what do you think of bronze VS steel?

[Matthew N. Masail]

this one looks real nice. the bronze gives some warmth.
http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=344_369_469_475&products_id=816