Case construction - no floating panels

[Tom Fischer]

Hi,

Going to make some new bedroom stuff, maybe spill over a little, to the living room.
Will take me probably a few years, do it when I can.

Don't want to have "floating panels" on the sides.
Most stuff that I see without floating panels (e.g. Glen Huey) advise using dovetail joints all around the case.
Grain goes in all the same direction.
(drawing of a Glen Huey case, both "boxes" are through dovetailed.)
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First will be a double dresser and a nightstand table.
Maybe later a tall dresser, or highboy // lowboy set.
(never made those)
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Anyway, here's the style the Missus prefers, this one from a small boutique reproduction guy.
No Floating panels
But going to skip the ogee feet.
We have two cats in the house. They will fill that bottom space up in no time.
Instead will have a plain baseboard to the floor.

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I happen to own a small one from this design/series
Looks like this

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It's not floating panel, but the construction has none of the dovetail box construction that Glen Huey has in his books.
Actually, the sides of this case have so much cross direction lumber, it's seems to work like plywood (laminate).
I did spot one small hairline crack at the bottom of one side. Seems the cross grain braces and drawer dividers keep the wood locked, the crack isn't spreading.
And the top has 6 floating clips, but also has cross-braces which seem to defeat the purpose of the floating clips.

If the full dovetail is required (more time/more material) for the correct design, I can do that.
Actually, I could probably just fingerjoint those boxes. Probably won't see any of it.
Otherwise, maybe copy this design?

Anyway, thanks for any ideas, thoughts, experiences.

tom fischer

[glenn bradley]

In a web frame carcass I glue the web frames at the front 4" or so and let them float for the rest of the length. This is a common and proven method of allowing wood movement in such a piece. The small piece you show in interesting in that the frames do not connect at the rear to a rail via unglued tenons. This makes me believe they may have been glued all the way. Gluing only at the rear an allowing the front portion to float can lead to misalignment (visually at least) at the front intersections as the wood moves throughout the year. I'm curious as to the actual construction on that little guy.

There's a nice article here on such construction: http://www.finewoodworking.com/membership/fwnpdf/011206034-revised-2012.pdf

[Tom Fischer]

Thanks Glenn,

so you just slide the drawer dividers into a slot on the sides, let the rest float.
Not even a dovetail slot?
Glen Huey says to put one nail in the back. But seems a wood screw (#8) would be better than a nail.
(most folks didn't have screws back then)

Just don't want to have problems, stuff blowing apart.
thanks!

t

[Richard Coers]

No such thing as keeping wood "locked". It's going to move, you can't defeat nature with glue and screws. You might get by for a few years, but sooner or latter...........If you are going to build furniture with that quality of curly maple, why not build it so it last for generations? Horrible construction methods in the last pictures, but I don't know how much is glued, and how much is floating. I see no evidence of slotted holes for the screws. Even the drawer runners are too close to the back. It will be putting pressure on the back during the winter when the sides shrink. I have built runners that have the grain running the same direction as the side. I glued up panels, then cut strips so the grain ran the short direction. Mortise and tenon will work on the drawer dividers into the sides, but the top and bottom ones are weak because of the short grain in the side. I would also suggest that you add dust panels, and build the dividers like full frames.

[Tom Fischer]

Thanks Richard,

Didn't mention, but my set will be black walnut, not curly maple.
I have at least 150 bf in the basement. Want to use it up.
(actually, the walnut has some curly figure too, hit or miss)
And the two trees came from my neighbor's yard. I like that.
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I didn't take any of the screws of the small chest, but I think it is all glued.
Most of that lumber is pin-nailed, not screwed.
Probably wouldn't hold without titebond.

thanks for the rest of the comments.

[Jamie Buxton]

The original makers used solid lumber for everything. That inevitably leads to cross-grain issues. The exterior molding running front-to-back is usually nailed on, so it can withstand movement in the sides. Interior parts run in slots or sliding dovetails for the same reason. All that moving/sliding stuff is rickety. With modern tools and glue, there's a way to build this style of furniture better. Make the sides and top with bandsawn veneer over a stable core like plywood. Short of drilling into the furniture, there's no way of telling that the piece is plywood -- except that all the crossgrain parts are fastened firmly, because there is no movement to deal with.

[glenn bradley]

Thanks Glenn,

so you just slide the drawer dividers into a slot on the sides, let the rest float.
Not even a dovetail slot?
Glen Huey says to put one nail in the back. But seems a wood screw (#8) would be better than a nail.
(most folks didn't have screws back then)

Just don't want to have problems, stuff blowing apart.
thanks!

t

Ah, the nail would take the place of the floating tenon as shown in the Becksvoort article. The reason for the nail and not a screw, I assume, is to allow movement without splitting (although there would have to be some room between frame and back as mentioned above). I do agree with Richard that we see some things you don't normally see in a carcass of that construction; frames tight against the rear, cleats tightly screwed to the top? Glen Huey certainly knows what he is doing but, I don't think you are saying that he made the small piece you are showing(?).

I'm no expert but, on mine the front few inches are glued with the rear is done very much like they show in the Becksvoort article. Wood movement will happen much like the daisy that pushes its way up through a crack in the concrete. Restricted panels will flex and strain over a couple of seasons but, eventually will find a way to free themselves. Usually this results in splits of panels or frame members. Better to build knowing that movement will happen ;).

[Tom Fischer]

Glen Huey certainly knows what he is doing but, I don't think you are saying that he made the small piece you are showing(?).

Uh ... No. The small 4 drawer tiger maple chest is not from Gen Huey. I didn't mention the builder's name, just in case folks disagree with the unorthodox frame design. I certainly don't want to start any heated discussion. The builder is tons more talented than I am. Just asking folks here what they think.

Also, I just googled this guy. He might be out of the furniture business (pretty common these days), but I see he has a work sample at horton-brasses.com. Pretty cool.

BTW, the above piece has been in my house for 12 years. Nothing is breaking yet. If it didn't break yet, are folks sure it will break?

[John TenEyck]

There are lots of ways to skin a cat while still allowing for seasonal movement. I really don't know why that piece you have hasn't split or buckled by now. Lots of good examples in it of what not to do, or at least it looks that way to me. There are alternatives to dovetailed carcase construction. The finger joints you mentioned is one way, and they work just fine. Another is to use loose tenons. Stretchers front and back at the top and bottom is yet another way, dovetailed or with double vertical tenons. Even more ways, I'm sure. More than one option for the drawer runners, too. Dovetail or M&T a narrow piece at the front, then glue the runner or dust frame to it with a mortise and tenon and let the rest of it ride in a dado or on a spline in the sides. I do like sliding dovetails though, because they help hold the sides flat, which gives me some piece of mind if I didn't use dovetails for the case.

Anyway, good luck with your suite of furniture. 150 BF ain't gonna go that far with solid wood sides, tops, etc., so plan it out carefully. Look forward to seeing pics sometime down the road.

John

[Mike Henderson]

For the blades (the things underneath the drawers) I agree with Glenn that you should use a dado and only glue them in the front.

Regarding how to attach the sides, for the top, I use two boards (one front and one back) half blind dovetailed into the sides. Then lay your top on top of those boards and use screws from underneath to attach the top. Use an elongated hole in the back board to allow for wood movement.

For the bottom, I use half blind dovetails all across each side.

In both cases, the dovetails will not show so if you hand cut them and make mistakes, no one will ever see it. And half blind dovetails are strong, even if you have some gaps in them.

Mike

[glenn bradley]

As an afterthought, I found a pic that helps demonstrate earlier discussion ;-)

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[Jim Andrew]

Like the style, cool looking. Your wife will like her new bedroom furniture. How do you plan to make the corners? I did a similar corner with about a 4" diagonal, but took the angle through the base and the top. Like that stopping the diagonal to a square on both ends.

[Tom Fischer]

As an afterthought, I found a pic that helps demonstrate earlier discussion ;-)


Yes, thanks for that.
I am planning on finger jointing the two sides with top and bottom. That will take at least five minutes just to get glue on all of that.
So the sliding dovetails are a good design for assembly.
It a completely different step (as opposed to using any M&T attachment of the drawer panels to the sides)
Sliding dovetail allows for one extra glue-up assembly step.
Even using Titebond EXTEND, it still doesn't give you that much time.
I hate being rushed when I am gluing.
Too many glue surfaces and it's like killing snakes. :eek:

Tomorrow pm I will be pulling some boards out of my wood pile.
Walnut and poplar.

Finished these week before last, from my walnut pile.
two of the legs were curly.

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[Tom Fischer]

L How do you plan to make the corners?

Hi Jim
corners? Do you mean the fluted columns. Yes, going to copy that exactly.
Get it round and bead it on my vintage Walker Turner.
Then I will take the shortcut, use my old Sears RouterCrafter to put the flutes on it.
It's a fixture, not a jig. As my dear, departed father in law (Old Joe) would say
"you put a jig on the work, and you put the work in a fixture"
Looks like a 1/4 veiner routing bit. Don't have that size. $10 for a cheap one at Amazon.
I think the trick with the fluted columns is to glue up four 4/4" sticks into a 2"X2" turning square, each separated by brown kraft paper.
So when the turning is complete, just split it apart with a chisel, have four 90degree moldings.

[Jim Andrew]

Sounds cool. Would you keep posting your progress? I'd like to watch. Thanks, Jim

[John TenEyck]

With sliding dovetails you only glue the last couple of inches. You insert the piece into the slots and push it in until only the last couple of inches remain exposed. Now add just a little glue to the male portion remaining and then push, pull it the rest of the way in. No stress, no hurry.

John