Cabinet Door Stile & Rail Profile Making

[Albert Chio]

Hi,

I am building my own home and construction has started. I will be building my own cabinets. I have a router table setup that I used in the past to build cabinet doors but I was thinking of investing on a used shaper for my house cabinet project. In another post I asked shaper recommendations and now I am the point where I need to make my decision. The pictures that I have attached show the profile I want to create for my cabinet doors. The question that I have is, would it be easier and safer to create this profile on the door stiles and rails with a shaper (using a power feeder) or would it be the same effort with a router table? Also does anybody recognize this profile and would it be easy to find a profile bit for either a shaper or router bit that matches it?

Last, the two shapers I have narrowed it down to are a SCMI 110 with no power feeder and a Delta Invicta RS15 with a power feeder. Both are going for ~$2500 plus shipping. Today I also found a Jet TWSS 3-3 shaper but don't know much about them. So between these which should I buy?

Thank You,
Albert

[Chris Rosenberger]

That is a custom profile on the rails. The profile on the rails is more suited for to be cut on a molder. If cut on a shaper, the rails are cut with the rail face against the fence. The profile could be made with standard beading & rabbet cutters on a shaper, but would need to be done in several cuts. A small molder like a Woodmaster or Williams & Hussy would be better suited for that. Custom knives could be ground to cut the full profile in one pass. Then use a router table or shaper to cut the groove in the rail & shape the panels.

[Albert Chio]

Hi Chris,

Between Woodmaster and Williams & Hussy which moulder to you recommend?

Albert

[Chris Rosenberger]

I have had a Woodmaster 718 for over 20 years & been very happy with it. I now only use it as a molder, but it can be used as a thickness planer & drum sander. I used it some early on as a planer & it worked well.
The Williams & Hussy is more of a dedicated molder. although I believe it could be used as a small planer. I have not used a Williams & Hussy, I have been told by others that have used them that they are very nice machines also.

[Jeff Duncan]

As Chris said that's a profile that's usually run on a molder, but you can do it against a shaper fence. Far more importantly though is that it's a miter door. Making mitered doors that stay tight is tricky at best. The better ones use some pretty involved joinery to keep the joints together. The problem of course is that as wood moves seasonally those miters are prone to showing it a LOT more than your typical cope and stick. What's your plan for joinery on those doors?

JeffD

[Peter Quinn]

You can mill that profile on a shaper with the right set up, I've done crowns that big, it takes a bit more work than a moulder would. The molder is the obvious choice, having both would be great, if there were room for just one id get the shaper personally, unless these doors are the only thing you need to make. Better off on a big shaper, not a smaller one. Depending on your needs for the house one or the other machine might be more useful long run. If you have a traditional house with lots of moldings a small molder might be more useful, for entry ways, windows, etc. and smaller moldings the shaper is generally more useful. So you sort of have to pick the one that you want to own when its over. I have a shop fox hussey clone, it will do the job, it's better for curves and essential for ellipses (wood master won't do eclipse iir) so consider that if curved work is in your future. For straights the wood master is a lot more machine, it can double as a thickness planer or sander which adds value if you need those features. I'd be happy to explain how to get those moldings through a shaper if you go that way.

ive done a few mitered doors, not my favorite thing, I like loose tenons on the slotter, a plunge router jig might be a low cost production method with a good jig.

[Chris Rosenberger]

Peter,

Just a correction. I have made lots of curved moldings on my Woodmaster.

[Albert Chio]

Hi Guys,

Thanks for your inputs. As of right now my plan is to use miter door and my plan for joining the stiles and rails is to use loose tenon using my festool and then driving a nail pin through the tenon from the back for extra strength. Will this work?

Peter, if I go with the shaper, how hard would it be finding a profile bit that matches my stile and rail profile? Also my understanding is that the shaper is mostly used to do edge profiling so if I want to do face profile like in my case, would it be dangerous and would i still be able to use the power feeder? I don't want to use my hands to push the wood through. Anyways, I am interested to find out more about how you go about getting this type of moldings through a shaper.

Thanks,
Albert

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Albert, the feeder is rotated 90 degrees so that the wheels push the stock against the fence.

Regards, Rod.

P.S.

http://www.felderusa.com/us-us/video/the-complete-workshop.html

I've included a link to a video, it's a desk being made with a combination machine, lots of shaper work in it.

The parts that may interest you the most are from 1:06 to 1:20

Regards, Rod.

[Jeff Duncan]

Albert....a shaper can do a lot of things, edge profiling is just one of the many possibilities with a good shaper. I'd recommend doing a bit of homework...maybe pick up a shaper book, read some posts about using shapers etc., to really give you a feel for what the machine can do. To give you the short version, you flip your feeder to feed against the fence, then you make up an outfeed fence that will contact several spots on the piece as it exits the cutter head, (since you'll be removing the entire face), and voila, your ready to run your profiles on the face of the stock:)

As for finding your door profile, with a heavy shaper and a corrugated head you can have any profile you want made. Whether its something your copying, or something you come up with out of thin air.

good luck,
JeffD

[Mel Fulks]

Your question has been covered pretty well. I would just suggest that having every door in the kitchen that style can be overwhelming ,especially since so many different size doors seem to be the norm. Consider using that type door just in a focal point. Impossible for everything to be a focal point.Having some simpler doors ,too , might make a stronger overall design.

[Albert Chio]

Yes. We are in the same page. I only plan to use this profile on only a few doors and the others a little more simple.

[Albert Chio]

Jeff and Rod,

I was just concern using a shaper for face profiling because normally the thickness of the stile and rails are about 3/4" and I don't know if this is enough meat for the power feeder to grab and push the wood. But I trust your inputs and experience, so now you all have convinced me to get the shaper because of its versatility. Now if you were me would you get the SCMI with out a power feeder or the Delta Invicta RS15 that cost the same but includes a power feeder?

By the way right now Woodmaster is having almost 50% off on their moulders. I might just swing it and buy it anyways.


Thanks,
Albert

[Mark Bolton]

If your going to do anything like your image on the shaper you will HAVE to have a feeder. So if you opt for the SCMI you'll have to buy one anyway. Also be prepared for a few hundred more in a corrugated head and knives.

[Mark Bolton]

This is what youd be looking at doing (not my setup but from youtube)

http://youtu.be/WcKtPhxeeEE

[Mark Bolton]

I think I may see your confusion with the shaper and face profiling. You are thinking the feeder is always in a vertical orientation so you'd be feeding on the narrow 3/4" face of the board. This isnt the case (hope you got it from the video). You lay the feeder over on its side and the wheels are in a vertical orientation feeding with pressure against the fence.

[Albert Chio]

Yes Mark, I didn't know that the power feeder could be rotated in such a way. The video made it very clear to me. Now does any one recommend a good source for the corrugated head and knives?

Thank you all for all your help.

[Jeff Duncan]

Which shaper should you buy?....well I'd say the one in best condition! Here's a little hint, Delta never manufactured those shapers in this country, originally they were manufactured in Italy by the same company that made the other shaper your looking at:rolleyes: So they are very comparable machines in terms of size and quality. Now the parts situation may be one area that's a cause for concern as Delta hasn't been very good about supporting old equipment recently. SCM also has trouble with older equipment, but I think they're supposed to be OK about late model stuff. So I'd go for the one in the best condition and if available...the better guaranty.

I buy my heads from CG Schmidt, you can find their catalog online. Knives you can get from them, or literally hundreds of other sources across the country. If you have a local sharpening shop in your area they'll supply you with knives as well.

JeffD

[J.R. Rutter]

I think that the Delta/Invicta probably has a better fence for doing face shaping like this. The T110 would be fine though if you go that route.

I like CGG Schmidt for corrugated heads and custom knives as well.

[Peter Quinn]

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Peter, if I go with the shaper, how hard would it be finding a profile bit that matches my stile and rail profile? Also my understanding is that the shaper is mostly used to do edge profiling so if I want to do face profile like in my case, would it be dangerous and would i still be able to use the power feeder? I don't want to use my hands to push the wood through. Anyways, I am interested to find out more about how you go about getting this type of moldings through a shaper.

Thanks,
Albert

No hands, no way. Not sure where you find your exact profile, for corrugated back inserts its at or nearly the same price for custom work as stock profiles, so a decent molder tooling place will make anything you need. Not hard to get for which ever machine you choose.

On the wide flat stock I've been taught a different method than that in the posted video. That method is fine for little stuff like that guy is running, it has its draw backs for bigger things, especially things with a considerable height difference from one edge to the other. Rather than run the feeder with wheels up agains the fence I run it above the work driving the top edge forward. Get the knives made so the deepest part of the cut is closest to the table and you are running standard counter clockwise rotation. This puts the most stress down low where the spindle is most rigid. No reason to run reverse rotation like the guy in the video, thats just silly unless you are repurposing knives from another operation.

I like a continuous fence with a cutout just big enough to let the knives spin and at least 1/2" of bearing surface below the knives, 1 " above for stiffness. I make the molding blanks at least 1" wider than the profile, this gives you 1/2" ears on the blank to each side of the profile. If wood is for some reason precious you can glue on some poplar scabs, they get ripped off later. I set the cutter height, mark this on a test piece, make a kerf in all the blanks at the top and bottom of the knife's path so the edges are not burning, but I leave "ears" on the molding blank, so you always have full support top and bottom. Last piece of the puzzle is a backer block, mine is three pieces of BB plywood flushed trimmed to each other, one at table height, one in the middle of a 3"-4" molding, one at about the 3 1/2" mark. These have a slight radius at the infeed and out feed sides so things don't bind. The plywood pieces run the length of the table, they are about 10" wide, they have vertical pieces dadoed in to keep them separated....It looks almost like it belongs on a BS as a resaw backer, it acts as a giant feather board of sorts, a big pressure board. It has to be made accurately.

The stock is held captive between the continuous fence and the plywood backer, the feeder is above the whole thing pushing on the top edge, mostly driving forward. No chatter, you can take multiple passes for a very smooth finish cut, maybe even just a hogging pass and a finish pass on a big enough shaper. Once your profile is milled, you can rip the ears off and joint or shape the to edges in a second operation. I have a few sketches above illustrating the basics for doing this on a crown. You might need to get some additional cutters to profile your inside edges after ripping the ears off the molding blanks, possible the jointer/router table would work better for the outer edge, maybe the router for the inside edge too?

All that said, I'd be searching for somewhere to buy this material as lineal footage first. Check a good local molding company, maybe a door parts supplier. I'm pretty sure you could buy the stock in lengths pre milled, then just cut your sizes, focus on panels. This is hardly a "shaper 101" setup regardless of how you do it, well worth learning, and very safe if done correctly, but not the quickest operation in the context of building a whole house, particularly if its your first go at it. Hope this helps.

[Mark Bolton]

I think Peter is on the right track with trying to source the material rather than make it yourself but it all of course depends on you expectations and what your time availability is. I dont think anyone knows how many kitchens you've built but this may be an ambitious project for an established shop and you may be better served by bringing this material in from a molding shop and focusing on your carcass, drawer, and door construction. Outsourcing would take at least one of the difficult steps out of the process though maybe not the most difficult one. A lot depends on how much time you have, what other facets of the project you've involved yourself in, and so on. From a GC perspective, often times homeowners can get a little ambitious at the onset with regards to what they think they can/want to complete but not insinuating you have done that.

That said, which machine would be best for the project and your future needs would likely be a tough decision and depend slightly on what else your making for the house.

For instance if you are going to be running any custom moldings or trim in the rest of the project, while it may not be the best fit for your future shop, I think the W&H (or clone) option would be best. After the cost of the molder you simply have a pair of knives (couple hundred bucks) and you can run all this material fairly easily as well as any other trim you need for the project. You would of course need knives for each profile. But the W&H may not be a much used tool in your home shop after the project is complete so you could always sell it.

The shaper however, would be a tool that would in my opinion be a valuable addition to your home shop and get continual use over the years however your investment, learning curve, and setups are going to be MUCH MUCH higher. You would have the cost of the shaper, a corrugated head (200-400 depending), knives, other misc. tooling that will be inevitable, as well as setups that are much more involved. The W&H is pretty much plug and play for this sort of stuff, shaper not even close.

So my input, if your really wanting to run this material your self, and unless you have plenty of time, find a used W&H or a clone and be done with it. After the project is complete you can sell the W&H and use the proceeds towards a shaper. If however you have tons of time and really want to only spend your dollars on a single machine go with the shaper.

What will probably make your decision for you is to sit down with the phone, and pen & paper, and list your actual costs for each option including the outsourcing. This would be your machine, accessories, material, and some amount for your time. If your realistic with the pen and paper and those numbers, the correct answer will be obvious.

[Albert Chio]

Thanks Peter and Mark,

My experience in cabinet making is pretty good and successful I would say but in the past I only used my router table to make raise panels and simple profile bits for my stiles and rails. For my house, I can probably stick to the same method but I saw this as an opportunity to upgrade to a shaper especially since wife has approved for this expense. But since I don't have any experience with a shaper I wanted to inquire the experts here. Time shouldn't be a problem either. I come from an extensive construction family and have experience building other family members houses including my mom's. So even though I am my own builder, I will have help from uncles and other family members with different task.

Anyways, I think what I have decided is that I will first invest in the Woodmaster 718 because in addition to allowing me to create my own custom profiles for the cabinet doors, I will also use it to create my own custom window/door trim and crown molding Then I will wait for a great online deal on a SCMI or Delta Invicta RS15 Shaper. I just missed a great craigslist deal for $700 Delta Invicta RS15 but hopefully I can come across another deal soon so I can replace my router table and use the shaper to create my raise panels on it.

Thank,
Albert

[Mark Bolton]

For what its sounds like you'll be doing I think you made the best choice. For whatever reason Ive never been a woodmaster fan. Ive used one several times and had a friend that was very successful with one. Given the combo capabilities you will likely be able to do everything your looking to including the cabinet door material should you choose. I can only assume it will have a lot of hours on it when your done. Also, didnt mean to in any way question your capabilities its just that building a home is a massive undertaking and using your time wisely, especially if your chunking off major portions yourself, is key. Im on the tail end of a very large project where we are doing a huge percentage of the work and it is a challenge to say the least, and this is what I do for a living.

Congrats on a good decision...

[Randy Henry]

Peter.
Would you mind posting some real pictures of your set-up. I get the drawings, but pic's would make it sink in a little more.

Thanks,

[Peter Quinn]

Peter.
Would you mind posting some real pictures of your set-up. I get the drawings, but pic's would make it sink in a little more.

Thanks,

I wouldn't mind at all, but I've never taken any! I won't likely be setting this up in the foreseeable future, its not something I typically do at home, its a work thing mostly for short runs of custom crown where they don't want to set up a thru molder due to limited lineal footage and/or the molder is tied up on a bigger job. Its a "git er done" set up for me, usually a contractor calls, is close to closing up on a project for which they are using a custom crown we made on a molder, they screwed up and need a few more pieces, or its a call back years later to make a small mod on a previous job. That sort of thing.

I'll try to explain, if you walk through it once its all very clear. The fence shown is made to match the height of the given knives. I chuck up the knives in the head first, get the height set using a 1/2" piece of MDF as a gauge block to keep the knives above the table roughly 1/2", mark the fence, cut out the clearance hole for the molding head with the method of your choosing. I like a a few drill holes and a jig saw. The blank is made similarly. I mark where the knives land on a test piece then run a saw kerf on the TS at that point top and bottom. The edges of most corrugated knives are not sharpened, or don't make great cutting edges in any event, and you are going to be burying the knives into the stock for most moldings of this type. The kerfs keep the edges from burning their way through, the edges usually don't have a clearance angle involved, you need to create clearance, or keep a fire extinguisher handy. DAMHIK

The backer can be made to match the size you do most. Make it shorter than the molding blanks so that at least 1/2" to 3/4" of molding projects above the backer. Thats what the feeder wheels grab to move the thing forward. In use, you have a big sandwich that goes Shaper fence--molding blank---backer fixture. You need to build the fixture so you can clamp it to the table. I usually cut a few small pieces off the end of an actual blank for set up, put one on indeed, one on out feed to set the backer tight to the back of the molding blanks. It all has to be well waxed and snug, just loose enough to let it move forward, slight angle on the feeder toward the fence, not so much that it starts introducing any "english" on the direction of the blanks. When you push the blanks in they have no where to go but forward. Later you can cut off the ears and detail the edges with a second operation with the molding laying flat and traditional feed.

The problem with the feeder in the vertical position, other than its not much fun to set up, is that it puts a lot of pressure on a molding that may be getting thin enough in parts to flex. And you are spinning a large molding knife so you have a big opening in the fence. Add those factors together, you end up sanding, and sanding, and sanding. Another problem involves asymmetrical moldings like a door casing, where you go from 3/8" on one edge to 3/4" on the other. You could shim the out feed fence to match the offset, but that doesn't solve the big feeder pushing on a thin molding issue. I've just never had that much success that way. The molding goes through, but its not always pretty, and a multi pass approach is out. One shot, but cut, good luck. With the backer and blank with ears, you can take a few light passes just by pivoting the fence or backing it up because you always have full bearing on the top and bottom of the blank. The same blanks work well in a Hussey with multi pass too, thats actually where I came by the idea. The second pass of a tapered casing through a Hussey can get interesting with one side not held down well, this solves the problem.

Next time I do this I'll take pictures for posterity, but it could be months. Almost never fails to happen a few times each year.

[Randy Henry]

O.k, thanks Peter. After studying it a little bit, it appears that all the boards would have to be identical thickness. Obviously, if they were not, if the jig was set up for a board, and the next one is thicker, probably wouldn't work, or if the jig was set up for a thicker board, then the thinner board went in, seems like there would be a lot of chatter marks. Something to think about though.

[Jim Andrew]

I've never bought any, but MLCS has router bits for mitered doors, you can run the router bits in your shaper using an adapter. Grizzly has them for their machines. MLCS also has cutters and biscuits for mitered doors. I have used their cutters to make handrails, and that worked good. The millwork in your house runs into money, plus it would be fun to make your own, although by the time you set up for it, you'll probably spend more than just buying the molding. But next time you will actually save money.

[Jeff Duncan]

O.k, thanks Peter. After studying it a little bit, it appears that all the boards would have to be identical thickness. Obviously, if they were not, if the jig was set up for a board, and the next one is thicker, probably wouldn't work, or if the jig was set up for a thicker board, then the thinner board went in, seems like there would be a lot of chatter marks. Something to think about though.

Any moldings you run through the shaper need to be the same thickness...period! no wiggle room! You run a thin/narrow board through your setup and you can create a missile that can do some serious damage! Shapers are wonderful machines that can really open up a lot of opportunity, but one must respect them thoroughly as they can also do serious damage if not used safely!

JeffD

[Peter Quinn]

Any moldings you run through the shaper need to be the same thickness...period! no wiggle room! JeffD


What he said. YOur blanks need to be very accurate for that reason, and when it comes time to cope or miter these things together small variations in the profile will result in large headaches for the installer. We have one version of the backer at work that has spring boards attached. A guy took very strong springs from Mc Master Carr, attached a board with counter sunk screws in over sized holes to hold the backer board on to the fixture but allow it to move in and out. This exerts great pressure but allows for subtle twists of minor thickness variations, say a few thousands of an inch. Well worth the effort to include if you will be doing a lot of this. Much beyond a few thousands of an inch you run into problems. A feeder could probably accommodate a wider range of variation, say 1/16" or a bit more, but thats way more than the installer could tolerated.