'bout' ready to give up on jointer

[Maurice Arney]

I've had my 6" jointer now for a couple of years and it seems like I will never get the hang of it. Everything I run through comes out tapered. I've checked all the settings, read hundreds of threads on using a jointer, and my stock always comes out tapered (lengthwise). Nice for shaker tables but looks like crap on a table top. It is a Craftsman (6" floor model). Could that be the reason?

[Chris Fournier]

I'd suggest that you try and enlist the help of a local woodworker who might double check your machine and technique. Many folks like to share their hobby interest and will be very helpful.

[Myk Rian]

Happens all the time. A planer fixes it.

[Jerry Miner]

Are you trying to get two parallel edges by using a jointer? SOP would be to get one face flat and one edge straight and square using the jointer, then use a tablesaw to get the second edge parallel, and a planer to get the second face parallel. Then, if needed, ONE light pass on the jointer to clean up the saw marks. Is that when you notice the taper?

[Maurice Arney]

Are you trying to get two parallel edges by using a jointer? SOP would be to get one face flat and one edge straight and square using the jointer, then use a tablesaw to get the second edge parallel, and a planer to get the second face parallel. Then, if needed, ONE light pass on the jointer to clean up the saw marks. Is that when you notice the taper?

I am making one flat edge by taking a number of passes, taking off about 1/16th or less on each pass. After about four passes, there is a noticable taper... and yes, afterward, I brought it over to the table saw and ran it through with the flat edge to the fence to make it parallel again.

[David Helm]

What Jerry said and, you also may be pushing down too hard on the rear of the board on infeed table. Most of the downward force should be on the outfeed table end. The rear hand should only be feeding.

[jared herbert]

Is it acraftsman that you cant adjust the outfeed table up and down? I know a lot of the craftsman jointers are like that and I have found that it is impossible to set the knives right in order to get a non tapered cut. Jared

[Maurice Arney]

Is it acraftsman that you cant adjust the outfeed table up and down? I know a lot of the craftsman jointers are like that and I have found that it is impossible to set the knives right in order to get a non tapered cut. Jared

No, there is an adjustment for the outfeed. I just checked it again and according to another blog I was just reading, it may have been set too low (blade too high). I know I checked this right before using it the last time but maybe it isn't holding. Would an improper setting cause the tapering?

[Thomas Hotchkin]

No, there is an adjustment for the outfeed. I just checked it again and according to another blog I was just reading, it may have been set too low (blade too high). I know I checked this right before using it the last time but maybe it isn't holding. Would an improper setting cause the tapering?

YES All cutter head blades need to be level with out-feed table for a taper free cut. Tom

[Maurice Arney]

YES All cutter head blades need to be level with out-feed table for a taper free cut. Tom

Thanks... I will need to look at this because I took great care to set this correctly just before using the machine. So it did not hold the setting even for one use.:mad:

[Lee Schierer]

I am making one flat edge by taking a number of passes, taking off about 1/16th or less on each pass.

Now that's your problem. 1/16" is a heavy cut on a jointer unless you are purposely making the board narrower. Try taking shallower cuts 1/32" is plenty to clean up an edge. If your board is rough cut you can clean up the edge on your TS with a long fence and then just smooth the edge on the jointer. Unless your jointer has extra long tables, the longest board you should be jointing is about 5 feet long and even that is pushing the limit.

[Jeff Duncan]

Now that's your problem. 1/16" is a heavy cut on a jointer unless you are purposely making the board narrower. Try taking shallower cuts 1/32" is plenty to clean up an edge. If your board is rough cut you can clean up the edge on your TS with a long fence and then just smooth the edge on the jointer. Unless your jointer has extra long tables, the longest board you should be jointing is about 5 feet long and even that is pushing the limit.

Have to disagree, making repetitive passes at 1/32" is a waste of time and knives. If I'm jointing rough stock I take a minimum of 1/8" per pass. If it's rough edges that have a bit of crook I'll knock off 1/4" at a time. Taking off 1/32" is just not a practical way to get anything done IMHO. Now you do have to account for what your machine can handle, but even the lightest duty jointer should be able to handle 1/16" - 1/8" in most woods. A good jointer can easily take 1/4"+ per pass;)

As far as the taper....that's an adjustment problem. Remember a jointer is a pretty simple machine, if it's not working properly it's either adjustment or improper feeding. Sounds like you've already figured out that the adjustment is off. Once you re-adjust the outfeed make sure you lock it down securely. It may be that you adjusted it correctly but forgot to lock it down?

good luck,
JeffD

[eugene thomas]

I set my jointer to take off 1/16 then can use for face or edge. If was set my at 1/8 or 1/4 would have to start with same preaty thick stuff.

[Frank Drew]

Changing the infeed table depth of cut takes a couple of seconds with most machines; IMO, there's no real advantage to keeping the same setting regardless the material being processed, since sometimes a heavy cut is called for, sometimes a lighter cut.

[Mel Fulks]

If you are not getting snipe and are getting a taper ,the out feed table is too high. One or two thousandths is enough to cause the taper . With the way the carbide inserts are catching on,in just a few years no new jointers will have adjustable out feed tables. It will be called high tech improvement .

[Maurice Arney]

As far as the taper....that's an adjustment problem. Remember a jointer is a pretty simple machine, if it's not working properly it's either adjustment or improper feeding. Sounds like you've already figured out that the adjustment is off. Once you re-adjust the outfeed make sure you lock it down securely. It may be that you adjusted it correctly but forgot to lock it down?

good luck,
JeffD
.
I suppose I could have not locked it down... I reset it and made sure the locking key was tight. Will give it another try

[Dan Hahr]

As long as you have the knives adjusted parallel with the outfeed table, it is simply a matter of raising or lowering the outfeed untill you have no snipe or tapering. For what its worth, it seems that I have to keep my knives about 2 thousandths higher than the outfeed to get a straight edge. I think it has something to do with the compression of the wood.

Also, you can joint much longer boards than 5 feet. The only real limiting factor is your strength; your ability to hold the board perfectly flat against the infeed and outfeed tables. I have jointed 8 foot boards with a little extra effort.

I wouldn't be surprised if your Craftsman jointer was not perfectly flat, but most cheapo asian imports are off somewhat. It's been a long time since Craftsman powertools were any good. No offense, and I realize that my Chinese Delta X5 isn't much different. But mine is good enough to make edges and faces straight and flat.

Don't give up on the jointer in general. They make for many more possibilities when using rough cut lumber.

Dan

[Kent A Bathurst]

Everything I run through comes out tapered.

OK - I might be in the stupid category, but I gotta ask, Maurice - tapered how? Narrower one edge to the other, or narrower one end to the other?

I don't have either problem - today - but have had both problems in my distant past.

Kent

[Rich Riddle]

I used to get tapers because of pressing down on the end of the board that had just been planed. I now watch where applying pressure and don't get the tapered boards.

[Sam Stephens]

jointer knives should be set 0.001-0.003" above the outfeed table height. Typical procedure is to raise the outfeed table, set the knives to this height, then lower it by 0.001-0.003". Knives too high is the common cause of the taper. If it tapers on one edge (rather than the length which is what most of us are thinking) then the knives are not parallel i.e. not the same height across their length. John White has a nice book called Care and Repair of Shop Machines that discusses setups and jigs for things like this. I found it very helpful.

Sam

[Mel Fulks]

This comes up fairly frequently and there is always well intentioned conflicting advice. Edge joint two boards about 3 or 4 feet long and then put the two edges together .If there is a slight crack in middle TABLE is too high .If the centers touch in the middle and allow slight opening at ends then table is too low. The test pieces should be at least 4 or 5 inches wide.

[Mark Wooden]

Mel's advice is the method I use to check, its simple.
Another thing to remember is that a jointer isn't a precision machine, cutting things parallel
is best done on a table saw of planer if it has the capacity.
I've seen some Craftsman jointers that aren't ever going to adjust well, I'd look for another machine if you've been fighting with that one for so long.

[Larry Browning]

Also, keep in mind that the function of the jointer is to make a surface flat. A jointer is not designed to make that surface parallel to any other surface of the board. The planner is the tool used to make 2 surfaces parallel. If you are using your jointer to try and make a board have a consistent thickness(no taper) you are destined to failure, it is just not designed to do that.

[Peter Aeschliman]

Also, keep in mind that the function of the jointer is to make a surface flat. A jointer is not designed to make that surface parallel to any other surface of the board. The planner is the tool used to make 2 surfaces parallel. If you are using your jointer to try and make a board have a consistent thickness(no taper) you are destined to failure, it is just not designed to do that.

This! Maybe I don't understand the OP's concern about the board being tapered. But you should never expect the jointer to produce to parallel faces or edges. That's not what it does.

The jointer will ALWAYS make a board tapered if you're starting with a cupped, bowed, or twisted piece of stock. All it does is take the cup, twist, or bow OUT OF ONE FACE and makes an edge flat and square to the jointed face. It never makes two opposing faces parallel. Only use your jointer on two out of four of the surfaces of a board.

Don't throw away your jointer. What you need is a planer to make a parallel face to the jointed surfaces.

[John TenEyck]

I've never seen a straight taper down the length of an edge that wasn't caused by me not feeding the piece correctly. Outfeed table too high or too low results in a piece that either won't feed or has a belly in it with a snipe at the end. I really can't imagine any jointer that can't be made to produce a straight edge, but I've seen a lot of people who can't produce one on any jointer (with no offense to the OP). Carpenters (and woodworkers) love to blame their tools. It's how we justify buying shiny new ones.

John

[Kevin Bourque]

jointer knives should be set 0.001-0.003" above the outfeed table height. Typical procedure is to raise the outfeed table, set the knives to this height, then lower it by 0.001-0.003". Knives too high is the common cause of the taper. If it tapers on one edge (rather than the length which is what most of us are thinking) then the knives are not parallel i.e. not the same height across their length. John White has a nice book called Care and Repair of Shop Machines that discusses setups and jigs for things like this. I found it very helpful.

Sam


I agree.

I have an old( 30+years old) Crafstman 6" jointer that I bought as a teenager and will never part with. I still use it all the time, mostly for edge jointing.

I use a folded sheet of printer paper to set the knife height above the outfeed table. Some people use a playing card. Works great.

[Stan Smith]

What Jerry said and, you also may be pushing down too hard on the rear of the board on infeed table. Most of the downward force should be on the outfeed table end. The rear hand should only be feeding.

Ditto to pressing down too hard on the infeed side. Actually pressing is not a good idea, IMO. The board should be firmly held though (as opposed to loosely held).

[Maurice Arney]

OK - I might be in the stupid category, but I gotta ask, Maurice - tapered how? Narrower one edge to the other, or narrower one end to the other?

I don't have either problem - today - but have had both problems in my distant past.

Kent

I mean tapered from one end to the other... and to Larry and Peter's point, I do understand that the jointer's job is to create a flat edge and not two parallel edges. BUT... If I am running a realatively straight board through just to get a clean edge for glue up, I wouldn't expect it to come out tapered no?

[Mel Fulks]

If it was tapered before edge jointing ,and you did not rip it parallel , it was probably tapered after jointing . That would not be a problem for a painted job but would draw the eye on stained work.

[Peter Aeschliman]

I mean tapered from one end to the other... and to Larry and Peter's point, I do understand that the jointer's job is to create a flat edge and not two parallel edges. BUT... If I am running a realatively straight board through just to get a clean edge for glue up, I wouldn't expect it to come out tapered no?

Hi Maurice,

If your jointer is producing perfectly flat faces and square/flat edges, but is also making the board taper from one end to the other, it's not a problem- this will happen because of what the jointer is (and isn't) designed to do. If the board is already perfectly flat and parallel (make sure you use a good straight edge to verify this first and measure for consistent thickness- don't assume!), and your machine is tuned properly, and your feed rate and downward pressure are perfectly consistent (hard to do!), theoretically it should be parallel and flat after jointing. If it's off before jointing, the jointer might actually make it worse. If you already have flat, square, and straight surfaces, then you shouldn't need to use the jointer at all, right?

It sounds to me as though your machine is set up correctly, but frankly you're expecting it to do something it isn't designed to do. Just my $.02. If you can, look for a planer on craigslist. You can get an inexpensive and decent lunchbox planer for a good price.

Then you will be set up to mill your stock correctly. You'll never look back!

[Larry Browning]

I mean tapered from one end to the other... and to Larry and Peter's point, I do understand that the jointer's job is to create a flat edge and not two parallel edges. BUT... If I am running a realatively straight board through just to get a clean edge for glue up, I wouldn't expect it to come out tapered no?
Let me make sure we are understanding what you mean by taper. let's say you are edge jointing a 1x4 4ft long. Before jointing the board is exactly 4" wide at both ends. You say that you set the jointer to remove 1/16". You are expecting the board to now be 3 15/16 at both ends, but it is not. one end of the board is narrower than the other. Is that correct? How much narrower is it?

BTW: is this machine called a jointer or a joiner? And do you joint or join the board? Which is correct?

[Maurice Arney]

Let me make sure we are understanding what you mean by taper. let's say you are edge jointing a 1x4 4ft long. Before jointing the board is exactly 4" wide at both ends. You say that you set the jointer to remove 1/16". You are expecting the board to now be 3 15/16 at both ends, but it is not. one end of the board is narrower than the other. Is that correct? How much narrower is it?

BTW: is this machine called a jointer or a joiner? And do you joint or join the board? Which is correct?

Correct... Although I have never taken the time to measure before and after each pass to see exactly what is happening. In your example, I start with a 4ft 1x4 that looks flat and straight to the eye, but when I arranged on the bench prior to glue-up, I might have 1/32 or so of "day light" in the middle along the bottom edge. The top edge looks fine against the next board so all I want to do is flatten that bottom edge to close the gap. Setting the jointer (joiner?) to take off 1/32" I run it through once and try again. I do this several times until it fits snug against the board under it (the top still looks fine). I don't know exactly how much was taken off but at this point I realize that the board is now tapered (let's say 3 7/8ths at one end and 3 5/8ths at the other end. Intuitively, I would expect it to be the same width on each end but it is not.

So this is how I thought a jointer (joiner???) was supposed to work. I have read many blogs and watched many you-tube videos on how to feed stock through this machine, and have become increasingly frustrated believing that I can't seem to get the technique right. But now I am learning that I had a misconception all along about what a jointer (joiner?) does and doesn't do.

[Curt Harms]

I was/am under the impression that a board being slightly tapered after repeated passes on a jointer is just kinda the nature of the beast. However, the edge should be straight, neither concave nor convex.

[Maurice Arney]

I was/am under the impression that a board being slightly tapered after repeated passes on a jointer is just kinda the nature of the beast. However, the edge should be straight, neither concave nor convex.

Took me two years to learn this... :o

[Mel Fulks]

With a hollow edge ,the out feed table is too high . It's usually easier to adjust by lowering it a 32d and raising by the smallest amount possible at one time and then doing the 2 board edge test. On some machines it is tough.

[Michael Dunn]

I had the same exact problem with my Central Machinery 6" jointer. Everything would come out tapered. The first jointed edge that is. Your tables are most likely not coplanar. I'm assuming your I/O tables run on dovetail ways. You'll need to buy a set of feeler gauges and some shim stock. Or you can buy 3 feeler gauges like I did.

I followed this link with my new machine and I have absolute perfect cuts. I used my 36" machined straight edge, 3 feeler gauge sets (one to use and two to canibalise as shims), a home made bow clamp, a C clamp, and whatever Allen or open ended wrench your cutter head calls for.

http://www.scottmorton.com/setting-tuning-grizzly-jointer/

Lemme know how t turns out.

[Tom Fischer]

When jointing the flat side of a board, I will almost always determine if there is one corner that is high, just by laying it on the table saw. In other words, I don't just push boards through the jointer with out already knowing which corners the tool needs to work on. If you don't do it this way, the jointer can easily make a long and slightly twisted board more pronounced.

[Peter Aeschliman]

I'm still pretty confused about the problem.

It really depends on what is meant by the word "taper". Does the taper start in the middle of the board, or does it start at one end and progress evenly to the other end of the board?

If the taper starts in the MIDDLE of the board, then you don't have a flat edge. The jointer is out of whack. If you have a flat edge, then by definition, your taper must be even from end to end. This is not a problem.

So the simple question is this: does your jointer produce a flat surface? If yes, your jointer is fine- your problem is simply the result of a misunderstanding of what the jointer is designed to do (no offense intended- it took me a while to get the concept when I started woodworking).

If the jointer is producing a board that is narrower or wider in the middle (meaning, it is NOT producing a flat surface, and this is what you mean by a taper), then your jointer is out of whack. The tables aren't coplanar or your outfeed table is too low.

I'm still not able to distinguish what the actual problem is (real or perceived). A picture with measurements might be helpful.

[Maurice Arney]

I had the same exact problem with my Central Machinery 6" jointer. Everything would come out tapered. The first jointed edge that is. Your tables are most likely not coplanar. I'm assuming your I/O tables run on dovetail ways. You'll need to buy a set of feeler gauges and some shim stock. Or you can buy 3 feeler gauges like I did.

I followed this link with my new machine and I have absolute perfect cuts. I used my 36" machined straight edge, 3 feeler gauge sets (one to use and two to canibalise as shims), a home made bow clamp, a C clamp, and whatever Allen or open ended wrench your cutter head calls for.

http://www.scottmorton.com/setting-tuning-grizzly-jointer/

Lemme know how t turns out.

Not sure if my craftsman has all the same adjustments as this grizzly but I may be selling my sears model and picking up a wider Grizzly jointer anyway. Good video... Thank God for You tube.

[Maurice Arney]

does it start at one end and progress evenly to the other end of the board?.

Yes this. Although intuitively this makes no sense to me, it seems to be the consensus that this is normal.

[Mel Fulks]

I don't agree. But it might be the best you are going to get without realignment etc.of tables.If you can get two boards to touch along entire length ,you might want to just move on.

[Peter Aeschliman]

Yes this. Although intuitively this makes no sense to me, it seems to be the consensus that this is normal.

Gotcha. Then I think your jointer is perfectly fine.

Let me try to explain the principle. Once it clicks, you'll never forget it. For the sake of discussion, let's just talk about face jointing. Face jointing is where you flatten the wider surface of the board. So on a 1x4", the face is the 4" surface. Let's ignore edge jointing for now.

The jointer's job is to create one FLAT face. "Flat" has nothing to do with the opposite side of the board. It just means that the surface being machined doesn't have high or low points. After successfully jointing a face, every part of that surface is on the same plane. It makes it so that you can lay a straight edge on it in all directions (lengthwise, across, or diagonally), and there won't be any gaps under the straight edge. After a face has been jointed, it most likely will not be parallel to the opposite face, because the opposite face was not used in any way to make the cut. SAid differently, the jointer will take more material off in some places than in others. This is why you end up with a jointed surface that is not parallel to the opposite side.

The planer's job is to "copy" the other side of the board. It does this by using a reference surface and cutting the opposite side. So you first joint one face, then run the board through a planer with the jointed face down. The jointed face acts as the reference surface for the planer's cutterhead. The planer's cutterhead is parallel to the table, and the flat face is riding on that table. Therefore, the top of the board will be parallel to the opposite face when planing is complete.

At the end of that process, you will have two faces that are flat and parallel. The jointer creates a flat surface, and the planer creates a parallel surface. Two very different, but vital milling functions.

Since the jointer doesn't reference the opposing face during the cut, it will never consistently produce two parallel surfaces.

Does that help at all?

[Larry Browning]

+1 to what Peter said. The concept is a little easier to understand when talking about face jointing, but the exact same principle applies to edge jointing.

[Maurice Arney]

Well... Maybe I'm just not getting it. Peter, your explanation makes perfect sense but my brain just can't grasp one thing; Why is it tapered? Flattening a surface to remove high and low spots makes perfect sense. But my brain tells me that to end up with a tapered board, the jointer must remove progressively more and more material (or less and less material) as it runs the length of the board. What I would expect to happen, if there were highs and lows, is that the highs would have more material removed than the lows as the board passes over the knives. So if it is roughly parallel to begin with, but has highs and lows along its length, then I would expect to end up with a board that is still roughly parallel, having one flat face while the opposing face still has the highs and lows. Is it because the machine sort of arbitrarily "finds" and settles into its own linear plane once it becomes flat?

[Maurice Arney]

I don't agree. But it might be the best you are going to get without realignment etc.of tables.If you can get two boards to touch along entire length ,you might want to just move on.

Thanks Mel, this thread has been a great learning experience for me. Apparently, there are many variables that go into this, and I can now assemble all of this great input into an understanding of how this machine works. Number one is making sure the machine is tuned properly, number two is learning and practicing proper technique for feeding stock, and number three is understanding what results to expect (and not to expect) from the first two principles.

[Sam Murdoch]

It's coffe break time so I'm taking a moment to add to Maurice's confusion. Peter's post # 43 is right on as regards to jointing faces but it leaves one to believe that edge jointing will also result in tapered pieces or at lest un-parallel edges. I think Maurice's your brain is working correctly based on your :confused: in post # 44.

My experience with the jointer as regards to edges is this: If I am prepping stock, for door parts for example, I go through the face jointing for flat, then thickness planing for parallel, then back to the jointer for a straight edge, then to the table saw for parallel width stock. Finally I then go back to the jointer to pass each sawn edge of all my pieces. If I pay attention to how many passes I do per piece (either edge) my parts come off the jointer parallel and equal in width. Normally I do no less than 2 final passes on the jointer, sometimes 3. I surely would not do it this way if I ended up with tapered stock, so I don't have the same acceptance of "normal" as others seem to attribute to the jointer.

Now if I made 5 or 6 passes I imagine I might start getting some tapers - wood grain, dulling knives, my own technique etc. would likely vary enough in that sequence to start compromising the final results. Don't know - I don't do that. Also if I am doing a kitchen full of parts I would not run all the parts on the jointer from the table saw but would make them parallel on the saw and clean up the edges by ganging them through the thickness planer one edge /one pass.

Does that help Maurice? :rolleyes:

[Larry Browning]

Thanks Mel, this thread has been a great learning experience for me. Apparently, there are many variables that go into this, and I can now assemble all of this great input into an understanding of how this machine works. Number one is making sure the machine is tuned properly, number two is learning and practicing proper technique for feeding stock, and number three is understanding what results to expect (and not to expect) from the first two principles.
Maurice,
I was going to add something here, but I think you got it.
I believe you should be able to reduce the taper effect by making sure the outfeed table is coplanner to the infeed table AND exactly flush to the top of the cutter head. Then, work on keeping even light to moderate pressure on the work piece throughout the cut. Even with doing all that the best you should hope for is to reduce the taper. You should never assume you got a perfect cut with no taper. Also remember that each pass will probably increase the taper.

I believe there is a technique to intentionally create a taper using the jointer. You would start the cut at a point on the board that is not at the end. You then make multiple passes starting at that same point with added pressure on the infeed side. I have never tried this except for experimentation, but it think it works. You might use it to slightly taper a table leg or something like that.

[Jeff Duncan]

The jointer can be a tricky thing to grasp and it took me a long time to get it as well. One problem I see also is that although guys are trying to help, it seems as though several are not quite understanding your problem, which may be leading to more confusion? Your correct in that to get a tapered piece it needs to remove more off one end than the other.....and that's exactly what was happening! If you took a really shallow pass before you adjusted your out feed, what you would likely find is that you get a full cut at the start and less and less towards the end until at the back it's probably not cutting at all. That's where the taper comes from. Once adjusted you should get closer to an even cut along the entire length;)

good luck,
jeffD

[Maurice Arney]

The jointer can be a tricky thing to grasp and it took me a long time to get it as well. One problem I see also is that although guys are trying to help, it seems as though several are not quite understanding your problem, which may be leading to more confusion? Your correct in that to get a tapered piece it needs to remove more off one end than the other.....and that's exactly what was happening! If you took a really shallow pass before you adjusted your out feed, what you would likely find is that you get a full cut at the start and less and less towards the end until at the back it's probably not cutting at all. That's where the taper comes from. Once adjusted you should get closer to an even cut along the entire length;)

good luck,
jeffD

I probably should have mentioned this a long time ago but your post reminded me that I can hear/feel material being removed right up to the last inch or so, at which point it stops. The method I use to set my outfeed table (can't remember where I read it) is; I put a six inch steel rule on edge on the outfeed table so that it over hangs where the blades pass. Then I rotate the blades manually toward the infeed until they contact the ruler edge. I set the height so that the steel rule just barely nudges ahead (less than 1/8th") when the blade comes around.

[Myk Rian]

AND exactly flush to the top of the cutter head.
Shall we make that flush to the top of the knives?

[Maurice Arney]

Shall we make that flush to the top of the knives?

I can try to get them exactly flush but the method I've described comes from a number of reputable tool and woodworking sites. I don't know of any other way to tell when the blades are flush unless it can be done with a dial meter?

[Larry Browning]

Shall we make that flush to the top of the knives?

Sheesh! That's what I meant. Did your mother have to tell you to take off your clothes before you got in the shower?:rolleyes:

[John Coloccia]

I happen to set mine up with a dial indicator...a OneWay actually, but your method works fine too. To setup with a dial indicator, put a flat tip on it, find TDC of the knife, and move the indicator back and forth. I do it this way because I have the OneWay and it's fast. The ruler method is fine too so long as you're gentle enough not to damage the ruler or the knives.

That said, I think 1/8" motion of the ruler is too much. I set up so that the ruler barely moves....maybe 1/32...maybe less. Maybe just a little scrape.

[Jeff Duncan]

I can try to get them exactly flush but the method I've described comes from a number of reputable tool and woodworking sites. I don't know of any other way to tell when the blades are flush unless it can be done with a dial meter?


No...you have it right! If you take 2 boards roughly 4' long or so and at least several inches wide and run them both through, you should be able to put the two cut edges together and have a nice clean tight joint. If not you can adjust a little at a time, but don't worry about trying to measure them perfectly flush. They should be just a tick higher than the knife.

JeffD

[glenn bradley]

I am making one flat edge by taking a number of passes, taking off about 1/16th or less on each pass. After about four passes, there is a noticable taper... and yes, afterward, I brought it over to the table saw and ran it through with the flat edge to the fence to make it parallel again.

Hi Maurice, IMHO a jointer will make a face or an edge flat. It will not take an exact amount off of an edge that is being trued otherwise the edge would have already be true, right? Once the edge is true, repeated passes to reduce dimension is not a job for the jointer. It may be that some of your dissatisfaction is in expecting the jointer to do something it doesn't(?)

Standard method (although there are variations) is to:

- flatten one face.
- use that face as a reference against the jointer's fence to flatten one edge.
- use that same face as a reference on the planer to make the opposite face parallel.
- use the jointed edge against the tablesaw fence and rip the opposite edge parallel.
- Cross cut to length.

I assume this is old news with all the reading you've done but, if you do these steps and then still have an irregular board we should review that issue some more. Following these steps should yield a true and square piece of material.

[Al Bacon]

Well... Maybe I'm just not getting it. Peter, your explanation makes perfect sense but my brain just can't grasp one thing; Why is it tapered? Flattening a surface to remove high and low spots makes perfect sense. But my brain tells me that to end up with a tapered board, the jointer must remove progressively more and more material (or less and less material) as it runs the length of the board. What I would expect to happen, if there were highs and lows, is that the highs would have more material removed than the lows as the board passes over the knives. So if it is roughly parallel to begin with, but has highs and lows along its length, then I would expect to end up with a board that is still roughly parallel, having one flat face while the opposing face still has the highs and lows. Is it because the machine sort of arbitrarily "finds" and settles into its own linear plane once it becomes flat?


When you say parallel ( as in " So if it is roughly parallel to begin with" ) are you really saying "flat"? That may be where the confusion is coming from.

[Maurice Arney]

No... I'm saying parallel. Like if I buy a piece of 1x5 lumber, it is roughly parallel meaning that it measure 4 1/2 inches anywhere along its length.

[Roger Pozzi]

Correct... Although I have never taken the time to measure before and after each pass to see exactly what is happening. In your example, I start with a 4ft 1x4 that looks flat and straight to the eye, but when I arranged on the bench prior to glue-up, I might have 1/32 or so of "day light" in the middle along the bottom edge. The top edge looks fine against the next board so all I want to do is flatten that bottom edge to close the gap. Setting the jointer (joiner?) to take off 1/32" I run it through once and try again. I do this several times until it fits snug against the board under it (the top still looks fine). I don't know exactly how much was taken off but at this point I realize that the board is now tapered (let's say 3 7/8ths at one end and 3 5/8ths at the other end. Intuitively, I would expect it to be the same width on each end but it is not.

So this is how I thought a jointer (joiner???) was supposed to work. I have read many blogs and watched many you-tube videos on how to feed stock through this machine, and have become increasingly frustrated believing that I can't seem to get the technique right. But now I am learning that I had a misconception all along about what a jointer (joiner?) does and doesn't do.

IMO, that explanation of your results tells me that you are looking more toward achieving parallelism which would call for the use of a thickness planer. By placing the "flat" side down on the planer table, you could "flatten" the opposite side to achieve a perfect fit on both edges.

[Maurice Arney]

IMO, that explanation of your results tells me that you are looking more toward achieving parallelism which would call for the use of a thickness planer. By placing the "flat" side down on the planer table, you could "flatten" the opposite side to achieve a perfect fit on both edges.


Yes of course... My problem was that I didn't realize the jointer would make it un-parallel. Now I know.

[Mel Fulks]

Well,if we are still talking about width ,as opposed to thickness,I think it needs adjustment. For short pieces it can be used as it is . Pieces 5 or 6 long will be more difficult.

[Peter Aeschliman]

Sorry Mel, but it's the same issue whether you're cutting an edge or a face. The jointer will not necessarily produce parallel surfaces even when tuned properly. It can in the perfect conditions, but it's not the right machine for that job.

[Maurice Arney]

Well,if we are still talking about width ,as opposed to thickness,I think it needs adjustment. For short pieces it can be used as it is . Pieces 5 or 6 long will be more difficult.

You're right Mel. It does need adjustment. I was just squaring up the fence and found that the out-feed table is just shy of 90 degrees while the in-feed table is dead on. :eek:

[Mel Fulks]

I have read every post ,and it is my understanding that he STARTED with material that was of a uniform width and was no longer of uniform width after jointing .That means it is not adjusted properly , and that includes not being made well enough to be adjusted ,or there is a nick in the knives directly under the edge of the board causing the material to climb.

[Maurice Arney]

There was a time (decades ago) when I bought Craftsman tools almost exclusively. I buy nothing from sears anymore... Most of it is junk. Eventually, all of my Sears tools wil be replaced. Maybe the jointer is next.:)

[Peter Aeschliman]

Mel,

The board doesn't just need to be of even width- the surfaces need to be flat and parallel for the jointer to keep the sides flat and parallel.

A board can be bowed AND have a consistent width. In fact, read post #32 in this thread again. The example Maurice cited was that he could start with a board that he's trying to edge glue, and find a 1/32" gap in the middle of the joint. This by definition means that he is starting with a board that has a crook. So he heads over to the jointer to get rid of the gap. The jointer removes the gap (which means the jointer did its job by flattening the edge), but he gets a tapered board.

In this example, the jointer will remove more material from the ends than in the middle. If the crook/bow isn't perfectly symmetrical, and the jointer beds aren't long enough for the ends of the workpiece to contact the tables throughout the entire cut, the jointer will take more material off of one end than the other. Hence, you get a tapered board but a flat edge.

I'm not trying to argue just for the sake of arguing; there are a lot of posts in this thread telling Maurice that his jointer is out of whack, which will cause Maurice to waste his time trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist.

[Mel Fulks]

Peter, I have already advised him that if he is using mainly short boards he might want to just leave it alone. He has confirmed that the fence has a twist,(or possibly one of the tables is tilted. Either qualifies as "needing adjustment" .I have also said that adjusting the lower grade machines is difficult . Obviously he can procure a board with a straight edge,rip it parallel ,then joint a edge and check width for taper.

[Larry Browning]

The primary purpose of the jointer is to make a surface flat. To me it is irrelevant whether it can maintain a parallel surface when jointing an already flat surface. If the surface to be jointed is already flat, why even use the jointer? If the surface is not flat, but parallel to another surface, the jointing will cause the 2 surfaces to no longer be parallel.

[Peter Aeschliman]

Yeah. I can't say it any more simply that this: if the jointer is producing flat surfaces, and produces an edge square to the face, it is working fine... Even if the board ends up tapered. End of story.

[Mel Fulks]

If the out feed feed table is too high ,making the material "climb" ,it might prove impossible to joint longer boards as you will ,for lack of a better term ,run out of wood before finishing the pass. We have no information on how the machine does with long boards. I have suggested a test and said that for short boards the jointer might be fine.

[Curt Harms]

You're right Mel. It does need adjustment. I was just squaring up the fence and found that the out-feed table is just shy of 90 degrees while the in-feed table is dead on. :eek:

Not all that uncommon, it seems. Delta has a lot of trouble with warped/twisted jointer fences years ago before the "who owns us this week?" began. Traditionally, cast iron fences were cast, rough machined then left to 'season' for a number of months. The casting would move over time as internal stresses worked themselves out. Then final machining was done. The 'seasoning' period was shortened so the movement took place after final machining was done. Oops. This is one reason I don't feel bad that my jointer/planer has an aluminum extrusion fence rather than cast iron.

[Mel Fulks]

Thanks,Curt. I just add that the more stable Mechanite iron was used in the better woodworking machines ,now it is not.

[Peter Aeschliman]

If the outfeed table is high, the jointer will not produce a flat surface. Mel has said his jointer produces a flat surface. Therefore, his outfeed table is not high.

It's very simple.

If the outfeed table is high AND coplanar to the infeed table, the workpiece will catch when passing over the cutterhead. If it's at the right height at the cutterhead but high at the end of the table (not coplanar), the jointer will take off more material from the ends than the middle, thus producing a concave surface. Mel is not experiencing a concave surface.

It would only take a board that is as long as the outfeed table to demonstrate this problem to its fullest extent. But the problem would even reveal itself on a short board.

The twisted fence is definitely a problem however.

[Mel Fulks]

If the out feed table is just 1 or 2 thousandths above the knives the material usually clears the rounded edge of the table and starts to climb and produce a slightly concave edge . On a short board that could be so slight that it would not be noticed without checking with an accurate straightedge and light. Indeed raising the table to produce a hollow edge joint is an old method to assure edge glued boards will be in good contact at the ends.The unwanted variations created by out of adjustment machines are many .It is possible for a too low table to produce a taper,but that leaves a snipe .That was ruled out earlier. The possible twist, I say possible because there could be some tilt of one of the tables, either case can cause wood to climb .The climb means more wood is removed at start of cut than end producing a taper. And the jointer belongs to Maurice.

[Al Shields in Dorr]

I've had my 6" jointer now for a couple of years and it seems like I will never get the hang of it. Everything I run through comes out tapered. I've checked all the settings, read hundreds of threads on using a jointer, and my stock always comes out tapered (lengthwise). Nice for shaker tables but looks like crap on a table top. It is a Craftsman (6" floor model). Could that be the reason?


I had/have a 6" Craftsman jointer also, about 30 years old and it works great....now. A pain to align, but make sure the infeed and outfeed tables are parallel in both directions. Take your time and once aligned it is good.

Al

[Peter Aeschliman]

Alright. Well I've done my best here and I feel I'm wasting my words.

Mel, my final advice: Face-joint a 5' long x 6" wide board on your jointer. Use a known, reliable straight edge to determine if it's flat (across its width, along its length, and diagonally). Resist the urge to measure thickness- it's irrelevant. If it's flat with no snipe, then your tables are aligned properly. Then take that flat face, and put it up against the fence of your jointer and run it through the machine on its edge. Again, use your straight edge to determine that the edge is flat. If so, good. Get out a square and measure to make sure the jointed edge is square to the jointed face. If it's square, then your jointer is fine. If you have a taper, but the above facts are true, then your jointer is still fine. Ignore the advice in this thread that tells you to adjust your jointer because, respectfully, that advice is incorrect.

If you are not getting flat and square surfaces, then you have a different problem than the one you've described in this thread. As simple as that. This thread has caused me carpel tunnel, so I'm done here. Good luck man!

[Sam Stephens]

the effect of having your outfeed table too low (~0.005") relative to the knives (i.e. knives too high) causes a taper meaning that w/ repeated passes, you never hear the last few inches (or more) of the board being planed. So of course you continue to pass the board over the jointer trying to get a flat face, yet never seem to joint the last foot or few inches. And yes, this board is not flat. It's kind of the opposite of snipe. The terminology is typically referred to as cutting a taper, b/c when viewed in relation to the other face, whether they were precisely parallel or not to start, repeated passes will cause a very obvious taper on the jointed face as you remove material from one end but less and less from the other end as you pass the board over the jointer. But again, that face is not flat so yes, the jointer would not be setup correctly in this instance. Raise the outfeed table a hair or two and try again. Mine has shifted on me before, perhaps a temp change or someone banged it w/o mentioning it to me. It's not an uncommon problem and is easily remedied by raising the table. Ruler trick, dial indicator, etc. many ways to check it.

HTH,
Sam

[Myk Rian]

I had/have a 6" Craftsman jointer also, about 30 years old and it works great....now. A pain to align, but make sure the infeed and outfeed tables are parallel in both directions. Take your time and once aligned it is good.

Al
I have a 6" Cman, w/adjustable out feed.
The best use I have found for it is as weight, in the back of my truck.

[Maurice Arney]

I had/have a 6" Craftsman jointer also, about 30 years old and it works great....now. A pain to align, but make sure the infeed and outfeed tables are parallel in both directions. Take your time and once aligned it is good.

Al

That's why you have a good machine. Mine is only 2 years old. Yours was built when Sears sold quality products. Mine was built just recently (in China) after Sears decided they didn't want to be bothered with all those pesky customers any more. They are on a self destruct mission.

[eugene thomas]

I think sears craftsman power tools where bad way before the china effect

[Julie Moriarty]

There was a time (decades ago) when I bought Craftsman tools almost exclusively. I buy nothing from sears anymore... Most of it is junk. Eventually, all of my Sears tools wil be replaced. Maybe the jointer is next.:)

The last two large Crapsman power tools I have are now sitting in the garage collecting dust. One of them is a 6" jointer. It worked fine for years but after a while I started seeing a bow in the edges. I took the thing completely apart, cleaned everything then reassembled it. It took me about 4 hours. It worked great for about a week but then the bowing problem started again. Rather then spend another 4 hours for maybe 20 minutes of actual use, it went up the stairs and into the garage and will either be sold for very cheap or given away to some industrious soul. I do my jointing now with a Lie-Nielsen #7 jointer. It burns no watts but a lot of calories. ;)

[Mike Cogswell]

Is it acraftsman that you cant adjust the outfeed table up and down? I know a lot of the craftsman jointers are like that and I have found that it is impossible to set the knives right in order to get a non tapered cut. Jared

I have a Craftsman 6" jointer with a fixed outfeed that I've used for close to 30 years. It certainly isn't impossible to avoid a tapered cut - you just need to pay attention setting the blades to make sure they are exactly the same height as the outfeed at their highest point.

[Ken Higginbotham]

My bad if somebody already commented on this but when you put both sides of the table in the same plane is everything flat end to end?