Sharpening Problems -- Solved

[Steven Herbin]

I was having problems with sharpening, especially my planes. I remembered that one of our Central Jersey Woodworker Association meetings featured our own Wilbur Pan demonstrating his sharpening techiques and how his results were excellent. So I called Wilbur and he graciously had me come over and we figured out the issues.

It was a combination of factors and his last suggestion, to keep my stropping board close at hand was a deal maker and time saver. It's no longer a pain to do my sharpening.

I must say that I went home, sharpened up most of my other planes and went on a flattening and smoothing frenzy. It was more fun than I can remember having with my hand tools in a l-o-n-g time.

Previously, I watched the Schwarz and TFWW videos (as well as many others). However, the patience shown me by Wilbur and the expertise he has were a real difference maker.

If you get a chance to see Wilbur in action or read any of his articles, it is time well spent. I don't know anyone that knows more about sharpening or how to make sharpening easy than Wilbur Pan.

-- Steve.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Well kudos on Wilbur for helping you out, and congrats on it clicking.

When I finally realized what "sharp" really was, it was an epiphany. Planes actually worked, and with so much less effort. Once you know what it is, you know when you're missing the mark, and once you start to learn to tell what's going wrong, you can really hone in on the issues. The biggest one for me was not being precise in my angles, and wasting time polishing metal that was just a hair behind the cutting edge. Now I catch that mistake almost immediately.

[Jim Stewart]

Glad to hear you've got it down. There is something about one-on-one that cannot be duplicated by a book or a video. What a good feeling success like that brings.

[Jim Koepke]

Glad you had some help to get you going on this.


There is something about one-on-one that cannot be duplicated by a book or a video.

That is why I always try to encourage new folks to include their whereabouts in their profile.

When someone comes by my shop to learn, my knowledge also gains.

jtk

[Charlie Stanford]

I was having problems with sharpening, especially my planes. I remembered that one of our Central Jersey Woodworker Association meetings featured our own Wilbur Pan demonstrating his sharpening techiques and how his results were excellent. So I called Wilbur and he graciously had me come over and we figured out the issues.

It was a combination of factors and his last suggestion, to keep my stropping board close at hand was a deal maker and time saver. It's no longer a pain to do my sharpening.

I must say that I went home, sharpened up most of my other planes and went on a flattening and smoothing frenzy. It was more fun than I can remember having with my hand tools in a l-o-n-g time.

Previously, I watched the Schwarz and TFWW videos (as well as many others). However, the patience shown me by Wilbur and the expertise he has were a real difference maker.

If you get a chance to see Wilbur in action or read any of his articles, it is time well spent. I don't know anyone that knows more about sharpening or how to make sharpening easy than Wilbur Pan.

-- Steve.

It's an area that is easy to over think and KISS absolutely applies.

[Don Jarvie]

Sometimes you need someone to show you. Videos and books are great but hands on is 100 percent better if you can.

[Wilbur Pan]

Thanks, Steve! That's really kind of you to say, and I'm glad you have things going with your planes.

[Wilbur Pan]

It's an area that is easy to over think and KISS absolutely applies.

Full disclosure: I've certainly done my share of overthinking about sharpening. It does not follow, however, that overthinking precludes the ability to have a simple system for sharpening, and I would argue that the overthinking helped me understand what is going on with sharpening in the long run.

[Charlie Stanford]

Full disclosure: I've certainly done my share of overthinking about sharpening. It does not follow, however, that overthinking precludes the ability to have a simple system for sharpening, and I would argue that the overthinking helped me understand what is going on with sharpening in the long run.


http://www.richardjonesfurniture.com/Articles/lesson-in-sharpen/lesson-in-sharpening.html (http://www.richardjonesfurniture.com/Articles/lesson-in-sharpen/lesson-in-sharpening.html)

[Wilbur Pan]

That's always a good read.

The only differences between what Richard Jones wrote and what I did with Steven are:

1. Using a grinder to get started.

2. Waterstones, not oilstones, mainly because that's what I use. I always make a point of saying that the choice of sharpening media doesn't prevent you from getting a sharp edge.

3. Used a magnifying glass to look at the edge to help show what the line of light is like, and what is really happening at the edge.


4. A lot less use of the term "completely daft stupit wee bastit". ;)

[Charlie Stanford]

That's always a good read.

The only differences between what Richard Jones wrote and what I did with Steven are:

1. Using a grinder to get started.

2. Waterstones, not oilstones, mainly because that's what I use. I always make a point of saying that the choice of sharpening media doesn't prevent you from getting a sharp edge.

3. Used a magnifying glass to look at the edge to help show what the line of light is like, and what is really happening at the edge.


4. A lot less use of the term"completely daft stupit wee bastit". ;)


I've always felt that waterstones are inherently more persnickety and, therefore, right off the reel are a less simple solution.

[David Weaver]

A new user will have more success with waterstones, and an experienced user who is honest, unless they are using something from 20 years ago, will find the same to be true.

I love the natural stones, but they've been lapped...and not in the right way.

[Jim Koepke]

After not having much luck with oil stones for many years my sharpening attempts improved greatly with water stones. Once the basics of what sharp is were learned, my use of oil stones also improved.

If it were my task to teach someone about sharpening, it would start with water stones to avoid the student falling into frustration.

jtk

[Chris Griggs]

A new user will have more success with waterstones, and an experienced user who is honest, unless they are using something from 20 years ago, will find the same to be true.

I love the natural stones, but they've been lapped...and not in the right way.

I agree. I love love love my arkys, but always go back to my waterstones for planes and chisels. They simply surpass my oil stones in almost every way. I tried to force myself not to use anything but my oil stones for the duration of one project. Obviously they got the job done, but I made it about halfway through my project before going back to me my usual pair of waterstones. I just haven't found anything quicker or more effective than a good pair of ceramic waterstones.

I also agree that waterstones are easier to learn to use. There are more subtleties to getting a good edge off of oil stones.

Again, that's not to say I don't like oil stones...I love them. But when it comes down to brass tacks, I have always found my waterstones to be superior.

My oils stones currently live in my kitchen and are used almost exclusively to hone my knives and touch up my straight razor (both of which they do a fantastic job at)

Of course, that's just my personal experience, as always YMMV.

[Charlie Stanford]

After not having much luck with oil stones for many years my sharpening attempts improved greatly with water stones. Once the basics of what sharp is were learned, my use of oil stones also improved.

If it were my task to teach someone about sharpening, it would start with water stones to avoid the student falling into frustration.

jtk

Surely the assumption must be the only things this hypothetical individual has to hone are chisels and plane irons.

Would you turn a beginner loose on your best waterstone with a router plane cutter? Spokeshave iron? Quarter inch plough cutter? How about a turning skew? How about a 2mm veiner? Hard to smile and offer encouragement when they dig right down the pipeline of your most precious waterstone. Oops.

I guess we can cross our fingers and hope a beginner never needs to plough a groove or refine the bottom of a dado.

[David Weaver]

Surely the assumption must be the only things this hypothetical individual has to hone are chisels and plane irons.

Would you turn a beginner loose on your best waterstone with a router plane cutter? Spokeshave iron? Quarter inch plough cutter? How about a turning skew? How about a 2mm veiner? Hard to smile and offer encouragement when they go dig right down the pipeline of your most precious waterstone.

All of those all the time, including the veiner. There is no issue with any of them on any of the medium hard ceramic stones, and the damage you can do is limited. Jointing scrapers, rounds, T&G irons from a stanley 49 (that are closer to an eighth than a quarter). There are more (and harder..and finer and faster) waterstones now than the kings.

Faster and finer than oilstones, with a whole lot more metals. You'll notice that there are few other people who would make the statement that they could barely scratch A2.

[Charlie Stanford]

All of those all the time, including the veiner. There is no issue with any of them on any of the medium hard ceramic stones, and the damage you can do is limited. Jointing scrapers, rounds, T&G irons from a stanley 49 (that are closer to an eighth than a quarter). There are more (and harder..and finer and faster) waterstones now than the kings.

Faster and finer than oilstones, with a whole lot more metals. You'll notice that there are few other people who would make the statement that they could barely scratch A2.

I have noticed that. My "problem" I guess is that most of my kit was bought and in place before A-2 was commonly available.

Send one of those stones to me. I have an HSS skew that I bet will wreck it in one bad pass on a hot summer day with sweaty hands. Oh, wait, sorry for the slip of forum decorum - we never slip, never a misstep, bad pass, faux pas of any sort. We're totally munificent and would happily turn beginners loose on $300+ cutting edge waterstone technology available only from specialty dealers in Japan.

[Jim Koepke]

Surely the assumption must be the only things this hypothetical individual has to hone are chisels and plane irons.

Since a well liked instructor told a class what comes from assumptions it has been my goal to not make them.

What one makes of them self when they assume things is told in the first three letters.

When keeping something simple, as in teaching another to sharpen, one does not start off with difficult error prone tools as the first lesson. However, if all someone has to sharpen is a scratch awl, that can be taught using a method that is not likely to damage a stone.

There is also the assumption that someone teaching another to sharpen only has one set of stones and that they are high dollar premium stones. If there are premium stones in my shop, it isn't by any effort on my part.

jtk

[Wilbur Pan]

Would you turn a beginner loose on your best waterstone with a router plane cutter? Spokeshave iron? Quarter inch plough cutter? How about a turning skew? How about a 2mm veiner? Hard to smile and offer encouragement when they dig right down the pipeline of your most precious waterstone. Oops.

The risks of sharpening a router plane cutter and a plough cutter are about the same as sharpening a 1/4" chisel. So, yes.

I don't see much problem with the other tools you mention, either.

[David Weaver]

I have noticed that. My "problem" I guess is that most of my kit was bought and in place before A-2 was commonly available.

Send one of those stones to me. I have an HSS skew that I bet will wreck it in one bad pass on a hot summer day with sweaty hands. Oh, wait, sorry for the slip of forum decorum - we never slip, never a misstep, bad pass, faux pas of any sort. We're totally munificent and would happily turn beginners loose on $300+ cutting edge waterstone technology available only from specialty dealers in Japan.

Charlie, I USE mine for an HSS skew. It's faster and finer and will actually abrade it. I bought my favorite finish stone (a shapton 15k) on the classifieds here for less than $90 new.

Your commentary only gets more ridiculous as reality diverges from your imagined conclusions. Lack of exposure seems to be no deterrent at all.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Surely the assumption must be the only things this hypothetical individual has to hone are chisels and plane irons.

Would you turn a beginner loose on your best waterstone with a router plane cutter? Spokeshave iron? Quarter inch plough cutter? How about a turning skew? How about a 2mm veiner? Hard to smile and offer encouragement when they dig right down the pipeline of your most precious waterstone. Oops.

I guess we can cross our fingers and hope a beginner never needs to plough a groove or refine the bottom of a dado.

If I were teaching someone to sharpen, I wouldn't teach them with those tools. I'd teach them with something simple. After sharpening a couple of simple tools, I'd certainly feel fine letting them sharpen anything weird. If you're worried about gouging a stone, pretty much the only thing you need to be told is that if it's something that might gouge the stone, only apply pressure on "pull" stroke. Problem solved. If it feels really weird and you can fit it in some sort of jig you have, that might be a good idea.

I imagine you'd have to be incredibly over-enthusiastic and heavy handed to gouge a stone enough to do real damage. I've gouged my stones. So I lap 'em a little bit and work around the worst of the gouge. I tend to sharpen small cutters along the edges and ends that don't see a lot of use sharpening just plane blades.

[Charlie Stanford]

Charlie, I USE mine for an HSS skew. It's faster and finer and will actually abrade it. I bought my favorite finish stone (a shapton 15k) on the classifieds here for less than $90 new.

Your commentary only gets more ridiculous as reality diverges from your imagined conclusions. Lack of exposure seems to be no deterrent at all.

I would honestly pay good money to see it.

[Charlie Stanford]

I honestly don't get the 'speed' part at all. I have a Washita that will raise a burr in four or five strokes and then finish on a Hard Black another four or five, swipe front to back a few times and done. Touch-up - maybe 45 seconds. MAYBE. Seriously.

[Jack Curtis]

... I bought my favorite finish stone (a shapton 15k) on the classifieds here for less than $90 new.

Your commentary only gets more ridiculous as reality diverges from your imagined conclusions. Lack of exposure seems to be no deterrent at all.

Hmmm, I suspect you're a lot younger, and probably richer, than I. I consider $90 expensive, very expensive, not that the majority of my stones didn't cost more; but it was still expensive enough to have to make buying decisions all the time.

[Jim Matthews]

4. A lot less use of the term "completely daft stupit wee bastit". ;)

A paying student might receive more gentle phrasing, I suppose.
I've been in classes where the students were paying for instruction, yet some insisted that they knew better.

The instructors response was, "If you're paying me to teach, we'll do it my way thank you very much."

[Jim Matthews]

What lubricant is used on the Oashita stones?

I migrated to diamond stones (with there well-known limitations) because I didn't like the mess generated with waterstones.

I can't imagine oil stones generate any less clean up. I'm such a slob, I would have kerosene or other lubricant deposited in just the right place on my bench
that the finish wouldn't stick to my completed project. I think the point of these discussions should really focus on practicum - if it works for you, that's good enough.

Beyond that, it's just another dissertation on how many Angels can dance on the head of a pin.

[Chris Griggs]

What lubricant is used on the Oashita stones?

I migrated to diamond stones (with there well-known limitations) because I didn't like the mess generated with waterstones.

I can't imagine oil stones generate any less clean up. I'm such a slob, I would have kerosene or other lubricant deposited in just the right place on my bench
that the finish wouldn't stick to my completed project. I think the point of these discussions should really focus on practicum - if it works for you, that's good enough.

Beyond that, it's just another dissertation on how many Angels can dance on the head of a pin.

I use mineral oil (aka. "intestinal lubricant") on mine. Its bit to thick honestly but its cheap and its oderless. My favorite lube for my arks... a Washita Pike No.1, a Halls Soft, and a Halls Black is norton honing oil which is also odorless but a good bit thinner than straight mineral oil, but I'm too cheap to keep buying it so I just use the mineral oil from the Rite Aide around the corner.

[David Weaver]

I would honestly pay good money to see it.

Not that I expect that having no idea what you're talking about will slow you down.

257563257564

Sorby M2. Put away somewhat dull. Shaves arm hair now without any stropping. 30 seconds.....at the most.

I wonder what a $100 finishing oilstone does with m2.

[David Weaver]

I can't imagine oil stones generate any less clean up.


You're right. Maybe with the exception of the old waterstones. The newer stones aren't any more messy than oilstones. The mess is just different.


if it works for you, that's good enough.


Sounds reasonable to me.

[Wilbur Pan]

A paying student might receive more gentle phrasing, I suppose.

For the record, I did this for free. :D I did not know about the inverse relationship between tuition and how much I could swear.

But since Charles wants to pay money to see how waterstones work, I'm happy for him to come over and help him out. I'll even show him a way not to drop his skew chisel, even if it's summertime and the heat is making his hands sweat. ;)

[David Weaver]

For the record, I did this for free. :D

Wilbur...are you sure it's not working its way through the OP's insurance? :eek:

[Wilbur Pan]

Can't bill through insurance. There's no ICD-9 code for "dull tools".

[Wilbur Pan]

What lubricant is used on the Oashita stones?

I migrated to diamond stones (with there well-known limitations) because I didn't like the mess generated with waterstones.

I can't imagine oil stones generate any less clean up. I'm such a slob, I would have kerosene or other lubricant deposited in just the right place on my bench
that the finish wouldn't stick to my completed project. I think the point of these discussions should really focus on practicum - if it works for you, that's good enough.


I always say that the choice of sharpening system doesn't matter in terms of how sharp an edge you can get. They all will do that.

What determines your choice of sharpening system is which one annoys you the least.

[David Weaver]

Can't bill through insurance. There's no ICD-9 code for "dull tools".

That's a shame. Some of them are pretty out there. Someone giving a presentation once at a conference I was at mentioned ratemaking complexity for health insurance products and noted that there are codes as obscure as "trampled by pig".

[Wilbur Pan]

E920 Accidents caused by cutting and piercing instruments or objects
E920.8 Other specified cutting and piercing instruments or objects
Arrow
Broken glass
Dart
Edge of stiff paper
Lathe turnings
Nail
Plant thorn
Splinter

Lathe turnings??!?!?!!?!

(Actually, I think they might mean metal shavings from working metal.)

[David Weaver]

Very nice. Darts. Love that one. And the Arrows. Sounds like triage near a renaissance faire.

I'd imagine some of those (lathe turnings, welding slag, etc - even though it's not on the list) are not too uncommon.