LN Bronze vs Iron?

[Bill Fleming]

I have a mix of vintage, LV and LN tools.

I am looking at a new purchase and got to thinking about bronze vs iron. I know that initially bronze was a more available solution for LN. Maybe iron less prone to damage?

Opinions?

Thx Bill

[David Weaver]

Iron rusts, bronze tarnishes.

If you're never going to actually use the plane, get bronze so you don't look at it in a couple of years and see rust.

If you're going to use the plane fairly regularly, get iron. It'll never leave unexplained smudges of tarnish on something.

Just my opinion.

[Stanley Covington]

Iron rusts, bronze tarnishes.

If you're never going to actually use the plane, get bronze so you don't look at it in a couple of years and see rust.

If you're going to use the plane fairly regularly, get iron. It'll never leave unexplained smudges of tarnish on something.

Just my opinion.

Is there any difference in wearing properties?

Stan

[Jim Neeley]

My *opinion*, and I start out saying I generally prefer bronze to ductile iron:

It's a matter of personal preference.

Yes, there are small differences, such as:
* Bronze is "heavier" than DI, so easier to motor through a cut.
* Bronze "surface tarnishes", like aluminum, easily and it can transfer to light woods.
* Bronze is more expensive.

etc., etc., etc. but either will cut wood. :-)

Jim

[Chris Griggs]

If I were getting one I'd probably get iron. The extra weight of the bronze feels nice, but it is a good bit softer and I'm prone to dinging my tools so I'd rather have the harder iron. That's just me and my butter fingers though. I bet most people would get bronze, the lack of rust is kinda cool, and the tad bit of extra weight gives it a really nice feel (of course the iron had a great feel too).

[David Weaver]

Is there any difference in wearing properties?

Stan

Not a whole lot that I'm aware of. Nobody could wear either one out without extremely abusive overtuning.

[David Weaver]

The extra weight of the bronze feels nice..

Extra weight is what I'd call a tool show feature, especially in a smoother. It makes the plane feel nicer in use when you use two planes for a couple of strokes, but when you use it for 100 once you get it home, you think "this feels too heavy".

Its similar to the guitar store dilemma - when you use two things side by side quickly, you're not necessarily going to end up with the one you'd rather have if you had to use one singly and for a longer time. A guitar store example is taylor guitars next to Martin guitars. You pick up two in the $2k range, and the taylors have a thin top so they are louder and brighter. If you get two representative examples, the martin sounds dark in comparison to the taylor, and maybe quieter, too. You feel like you have to dig hard at it when playing it to try to get it to match the taylor. You immediately decide that the taylor is a better guitar, it's louder and brighter, and you buy it.

Three weeks later, you decide maybe that the bright thinness and fundamental loudness of the tone on the taylor guitar is starting to get grating to your ears, and you use it to make a recording and find that it doesn't have a vintage sound with the same overtones as you're used to hearing (the sound of a martin), and all of the extra volume from the guitar doesn't do anything after you equalize the level with a microphone.

[Chris Griggs]

Extra weight is what I'd call a tool show feature, especially in a smoother. It makes the plane feel nicer in use when you use two planes for a couple of strokes, but when you use it for 100 once you get it home, you think "this feels too heavy".


I can't argue with that, though I actually think its just as much of a "tool show" feature when it comes to things larger then smoother, as in comparing a 7 and an 8. I fell in love with the LN 8 when I used it at a show, but the more I've used my vintage 8 the more I've decided that if I get a premium jointer I'd want a 7 (which will shock Archie if he reads this because I think my love of the 8 after I tried it at a show was what finally tipped him over the edge into buying one). Using something at a show is very very different then taking something home and using it to prep and smooth 10, 20 or 50 BF of hardwood.

To each his own. I'm coming to develop a strong preference for planes that are just as big as they need to be. I have no interest in 4 1/2's or the equivalent in BUs, and as I've said many times my most used bench plane is my WR No. 6, which I think I'd like to replace with a lighter vintage No. 6. I'd also like to replace my lovely Sargent 424 (or at least supplement it) with a good vintage 7. About the only place I'd like a wider larger version of a plane is in a panel plane...as in if I want to smooth something with a largish plane to help maintain its flattness I'd rather use a 5 1/2 or LV LA Jack over a 2" wide 5.

Of course, all that is just personal preference, I'm sure others feel the exact opposite way. Call me a wus, call me lazy, that's just what I've come to realize my preferences are.

Anyway, the LN iron 4 is a pretty hefty chunk of iron in its own right, and probably the biggest difference in the choice between that and the bronze is whether you want to chase rust of your tool or chase tarnish of your wood.

[Derek Cohen]

I have had the bronze LN #4 1/2 Anniversary since it was available (7 years ago?) and a bronze LN #3 for about 2 years. Neither has worn appreciably (but I have a number of smoothers, and they have to take turns), and I have never noticed that they mark light woods.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Planes/Lie%20Nielsen/LN2.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[george wilson]

Whatever their alloy is,its TOUGH!!!

[David Weaver]

I have two LN bronze tools, and their marking of woods probably has to do with lack of use, and maybe climate in my garage. The small scraper and a skew block plane. I don't use either of them at all any longer except for the scraper to condition the sole of japanese planes.

But the times I'd have to resort to the scraper before I built my own planes, I did get marking on curly maple.

The small bronze scraper is a super little tool once you learn to use it, but the ship has sailed on actually needing to for projects.

My problem with rust in little used tools seems to be more between the cap iron and iron.

I did at one point have the LV bronze edge plane, and also noticed its habit to mark maple if it wasn't used often (and I didn't use it often, and would go so far to say I couldn't find an instance where they're useful at all for an experienced user - despite patrick's gushing over the type).

[Chris Griggs]

I have never noticed that they mark light woods.


Good to know. Its one of those things you hear, but I have to imagine that if it was a major problem they wouldn't sell so many.

RE: the toughness. I've only ever owned one bronze LN plane, but dinged it with a brass mallet (nothing major just a tiny little ding), but the fact that I was able to with brass made me parnoid and feel like I had to baby it. I just didn't like the feeling of having to be so careful with it. I ding my iron planes too, but I got it in my head that the bronze was fragile, probably a totally paranoid overreaction, but it made me less gung ho about wanting to get more bronze planes. Again, if there was any sort of major issue with toughness or marking I doubt they would sell some many that are so loved.

[David Weaver]

Good to know. Its one of those things you hear, but I have to imagine that if it was a major problem they wouldn't sell so many.

RE: the toughness. I've only ever owned one bronze LN plane, but dinged it with a brass mallet (nothing major just a tiny little ding), but the fact that I was able to with brass made me parnoid and feel like I had to baby it. I just didn't like the feeling of having to be so careful with it. I ding my iron planes too, but I got it in my head that the bronze was fragile, probably a totally paranoid overreaction, but it made me less gung ho about wanting to get more bronze planes. Again, if there was any sort of major issue with toughness or marking I doubt they would sell some many that are so loved.

Yeah, the infrequent marking isn't a real issue, there has to be tarnish on the bronze for it to occur. That's something easily avoidable by use.

I agree with george, for bronze, it's pretty tough stuff. Over time, I've settled into it being a gentleman's plane feature, though (the bronze), because you can't keep the iron and cap iron from rusting if you live in a high rust area. I'm a gentleman woodworker, I guess, which would explain why I still have two bronze tools. Each day, I move a little more toward curmudgeon and favor plainer cheaper tools, except for the #7 - it's such a nice plane to use in a heavy cut. and it's so flat that you can use it and forgo checking flatness of what you planed and still have everything laser fit if you choose.

(I had the 8 also, I kept the 7. Total indulgence to have both at the same time. I'm not convinced LN doesn't use the same adjuster in the 7 and 8, creating backlash due to the 8s thicker iron, even above and beyond the weight issues).

[Derek Cohen]

Good to know. Its one of those things you hear, but I have to imagine that if it was a major problem they wouldn't sell so many.

RE: the toughness. I've only ever owned one bronze LN plane, but dinged it with a brass mallet (nothing major just a tiny little ding), but the fact that I was able to with brass made me parnoid and feel like I had to baby it. I just didn't like the feeling of having to be so careful with it. I ding my iron planes too, but I got it in my head that the bronze was fragile, probably a totally paranoid overreaction, but it made me less gung ho about wanting to get more bronze planes. Again, if there was any sort of major issue with toughness or marking I doubt they would sell some many that are so loved.

Hi Chris, George is correct. These planes are tough. Here is a LN skew block plane I picked up on eBay very cheaply in 2008. You can see why!

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolRestorations/LNSkewRabbetBlockPlaneRestoration_html_m592b0b38.j pg

After further investigation it turned out that this was the first #140 made by LN and dates to 1985. Many of its parts were different from the current model.

The plane certainly came in for more than its share of abuse! It must rank as the only LN plane to have needed a full restoration, which was done with the help of Thomas Lie-Nielsen.

It certainly ended up looking like a new plane. This was easier because it was brass.

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolRestorations/LNSkewRabbetBlockPlaneRestoration_html_2e54e39f.jp g

Article: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolRestorations/LNSkewRabbetBlockPlaneRestoration.html

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Chris Griggs]

Good to know gents. I, and I'm sure the OP, appreciates the info (though LOML and my pocket book hate you all)

David, if you really want to stick it to the man you should trade me your dead flat LN 7, for my convex Sargent 424 (its great for sprung joints)....that'll show big bad TLN whose boss;). As an added bonus the iron on my sargent is on the soft side to its will work very well with your magic yellow HTA.

[steven c newman]

All of this sounds like what the early Swordsmiths would have talked like, when the world was going from Bronze Age long knives, to iron swords.

[David Weaver]

Yeah, I don't want to stick it to LN for anything other than the comment about using the double iron being fidgety and recommending a high angle frog instead, which I will go so far as to describe as generally inferior for anyone in the US aside from being easier for beginners to master. I don't really want to stick it to any of the quality toolmakers - I just got double festooned in the last two weeks. Nice tools are nice to have when they function fundamentally better.

I have waffled about selling the 7, but the function it performs benefits from the flatness so much that I don't want to. I am so glad I didn't get it with a high angle frog.

I'm hiding the carriage rabbet plane, the large shoulder plane and the low angle block plane, too. I just don't actually use them for various reasons, but I think at some point I might and they're liquid enough that I could sell them any time I changed my mind.

My 7's a good one. LN has flatness specs, but from time to time you'll find planes at the border line of their specs, and in a direction I don't like on a long plane (concave). They could third their spec and my 7 would still be inside it. It gives me warm fuzzies to get super laser glue lines without having to check jointed edges with a straight edge and without having to have much clamping pressure.

[Chris Griggs]

I just got double festooned in the last two weeks. Nice tools are nice to have when they function fundamentally better.


You were on two occasions in the last two weeks adorned with chains, garlands, or other decorations?:D

I believe you got double Festooled.....

LOL, I love auto correct!

[David Weaver]

I did that on purpose :) I feel like using the word festool is talking about your flair. My grandfather would call me a mark. I still refuse to buy the vacuum, i'll say that on my death bed - i hope.

At one point I vowed never to buy anything black and green, but I'm getting lazier and they work like a point and and shoot camera (set them on a track, align them with a mark and go). I can still sort of pat myself on the back when I look at a sanded surface (and say "I was right...it's horrible!!"), no matter how good the sander is, the surface still looks dull unless you take much longer to use sanders than planes would ever take.

I wonder if one could make a power burnisher.

I used a power planer three days ago for the first time in about 2 1/2 years, too. I think the end is near.

[Jim Koepke]

David mentions shop humidity and bronze tools.

Derek mentions not having much of a marking problem from bronze tools in his shop.

My bet is there is a large difference between the average relative humidities between Perth and Western PA.

Here in the Pacific Northwest, the weather person will be telling us how dry it is with the on screen graphic saying we have 80% humidity.

Shop conditions have a lot to do with how tool surfaces react.

jtk

[Chris Griggs]

I did that on purpose :) I feel like using the word festool is talking about your flair. My grandfather would call me a mark. I still refuse to buy the vacuum, i'll say that on my death bed - i hope.

At one point I vowed never to buy anything black and green, but I'm getting lazier and they work like a point and and shoot camera (set them on a track, align them with a mark and go). I can still sort of pat myself on the back when I look at a sanded surface (and say "I was right...it's horrible!!"), no matter how good the sander is, the surface still looks dull unless you take much longer to use sanders than planes would ever take.

I wonder if one could make a power burnisher.

I used a power planer three days ago for the first time in about 2 1/2 years, too. I think the end is near.

I see. I assumed it was a similar situation to the time I posted a question about buying a moving filibuster, and than got chided for discussing politics.

Its really hard not to like nice tools when they actually do help you get better results quicker and easier. When you see their fruits in the form of a finished piece that would have taken either longer to complete or been more tedious to get the same results without that tool it makes it very easy to want more.

All this stuff, LV, LN, festool, ect. isn't a requirement, obviously, but the handful of premium planes I have sure are REALLY nice to have, and I'm guessing the green and black tools with their strange tails that get inserted into the wall are the same way.

[Jim Stewart]

I probably qualify as a level 3 tool freak; level 1 being a mild tool freak and 10 being the ultimate, extreme freak. I have a bronze #4 and that is probably the first plane that I bought. I recently bought an iron 4 1/2 steep frog LN and have used it a bit. I also have a LV bevel up smoother with the new steel, PMV whatever. I use the #4 on all poplar and probably use it the most of all smoothers. I don't notice any marks from using that plane, though I think I used to?? I use that tool on poplar because it is so easy to push and it does not need sharpening very often. I use the LV bevel up on my finish hard woods. Man it does and incredible job. I think it pushes harder but I have never sharpened it after grinding the new steel blade to 50 degrees (that was not fun). The percent usage on my planes may change here shortly as I will be finish planing a Tiger Maple Chest-on-Chest of drawers using the LV. Indiana is very humid at times and not so much at others. My shop is insulated, heated and at times air conditioned. That may be why the bronze does so well.

[David Weaver]

David mentions shop humidity and bronze tools.

Derek mentions not having much of a marking problem from bronze tools in his shop.

My bet is there is a large difference between the average relative humidities between Perth and Western PA.

Here in the Pacific Northwest, the weather person will be telling us how dry it is with the on screen graphic saying we have 80% humidity.

Shop conditions have a lot to do with how tool surfaces react.

jtk

Yeah, our humidity is not as bad as yours. Ours averages 80% in the morning and 60% in the afternoon (RH). I see yours averages about 78% overall, vs. what is probably 70% average or a little less for us.

[Bill Fleming]

Thx for the comments and thoughts. I haven't had marking problems with the couple of bronze tools I have but I use them. The reason for my question was driven by consideration of the skew block plane. Just wondered about the toughness since the sole is supported by the single side. I guess Derek answered that with his restored but well abused example.

Thx again - Bill

[David Weaver]

The bronze skew block works as it should. Get one with the nicker if you are ordering a new one.

[Jim Neeley]

I too have the bronze skew block and like it so much I found myself using it as my go-to block. I'm a lefty but ended up adding a RH one to my arsenal as well as the LH. I generally use the RH one as my block, LH for my skew, with the ability to sharpen up the RH as skew if I have gnarly grain issues.

Jim

[Mike Cogswell]

I prefer the bronze for the small (2 & 3) bench planes. The extra weight does, IMHO, help keep the plane moving smoothly and the planes are small enough the weight isn't tiring. For a #4 I think the opposite. The iron 4 is already heavy enough and you really don't need the extra weight. I do have a bronze #4, but it has a high angle frog so the weight probably does help it a bit in that configuration. Unless I'm dealing with difficult grain I just use an iron #4 with a standard frog.

My shop is heated and airconditioned, so I don't have a humidity problem. I also keep the soles cleaned and waxed with a non-silicon wax. If they aren't being used much they also get a light coat of oil over the wax. As a result, I've not had any issues with marking the wood so far.

[Jim Palmer]

Does anyone know if the Bronze they use has much - if any - lead content?

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Does anyone know if the Bronze they use has much - if any - lead content?

Enough they have to include the California Prop. 65 notice on their website. I don't know how much lead that actually means is in the stuff. My understanding is that lead is mainly a hazard if ingested or inhaled - handling is relatively safe if you wash your hands. My understanding is the major concerns with lead have been it's use in plumbing where it can contaminate water in some instances, and the lead oxides used in paint, which could flake and become airborne, or in the case of childrens toys, become ingested easily.

[bob blakeborough]

I have the bronze LN No.3 and I have never noticed any wood marking etc. Beautiful and functional! :)

[Mike Cogswell]

Does anyone know if the Bronze they use has much - if any - lead content?

LN says they use manganese bronze, but don't say what specific alloy. Typical manganese bronze alloys are in the range of 0.20 to 0.40% lead, so it isn't anything I would worry about.