Any need for a Thicknesser when you have a jointer?

[Eoin Ryans]

Hi Guys,

Think it is about time I invested in something to allow me buy rough lumber and save some cash from the planed all over stuff.

Can I just buy a jointer alone (with no additional thicknesser), which will square off all of my sides/faces, and continue to run it through until I get my desired thickness (instead of using a special thicknesser)?

PS Not sure if I have the terminology correct here - we have planers to square edges, and thicknessers to reduce the thickness of a board. You interchange "planer" with "jointer"??

Thanks

[Mike Cutler]

Hi Guys,

Think it is about time I invested in something to allow me buy rough lumber and save some cash from the planed all over stuff.

Can I just buy a jointer alone (with no additional thicknesser), which will square off all of my sides/faces, and continue to run it through until I get my desired thickness (instead of using a special thicknesser)?

PS Not sure if I have the terminology correct here - we have planers to square edges, and thicknessers to reduce the thickness of a board. You interchange "planer" with "jointer"??

Thanks

Eoin

A jointer and a planer are two separate machines, that perform two distinct functions. The jointer is commonly used to make joint one face and one edge 90 degrees to each other. The planer, thicknesser, makes the board a uniform thickness using the Joined face as it's reference. The other edge is made parallel with a table saw, most commonly.
A planer can do 1/2 the work of a jointer with a sled, make one face uniform and flat, but a jointer can not do the work of a planer.

[Dick Brown]

Thicknesser and planer are same. Planer poor for sraightning. Jointer to square edges and straighten boards. Jointer is poor for thicknessing. I use my planer a lot, used my jointer very little and finaly sold it. Other folks do just the opposite. Can use either one for either job with enough jigs, sleds, etc if you want to go through the effort. Which to buy if just one?? Just depends on the type projects you do, type wood you work with, and other tools you have. No same answer for everybody.

[Bill Huber]

If I could only have one, it would be the planner.

I have a jointer, it is a little one but it does the job but I don't use it that much.

I have found that with the planner I can plan one side flat then flip it over and get both sides parallel. With that done I square the edges with the table saw, work just fine for me.

[Cody Colston]

To put it in very simple terms, a jointer can flatten both faces but will not necessarily make them parallel to each other. That's what a planer does...thicknesses the stock while keeping the two faces parallel. As was stated, after one edge is jointed, the piece is ripped to width on the TS and those edges are now parallel. It's common practice to rip the piece 1/16" over and then joint the ripped edge.

[Kevin Groenke]

Warning! Confusing and circular descriptions ahead.

What we (in N. America) call a jointer is used to make one face of rough and often twisted, cupped or bowed materials flat (or planar) and often to make one face and one edge of a board square to one another. If you run one face of a board through a jointer (aka JOINT THE BOARD) and then flip it over and do the same to the opposite face, there is absolutely no guarantee of the faces being co-planar when you're done, and the chances of such happening are probably very small.

What we call a planer in N. America, doesn't make things planar, it just makes things thinner (though one can employ various jigs to use a planer to make things planar). So, if you put a twisted, warped or cupped board into a planer, a thinner twisted, warped or cupped board comes out the other end. However when you put the perfectly flat face that you created with a jointer on the reference surface of the planer (it's bed) a thinner, board with two flat and co-planar faces comes out the other end.

I suspect Eoin may be outside the US which would confuse matters further.
In much of the rest of the world they call a jointer a planer and they call a planer a thicknesser - so the machines' names actually described their function more accurately.

http://www.recordpower.co.uk/category/planing--thicknessing

Eoin, you probably want one of each if you're doing work that requires square and co-planar solid wood stock (if you're making Windsor chairs or small boxes or casework from sheet goods or whatever, it might not be needed). If you can only get one, get a planer and find another way to joint boards or take a straight edge and winding sticks to the lumber yard to pick out the flattest possible stock (there there is no guarantee it will stay flat since wood moves). Of course the other option is a combination machine which incorporates the functional of both into a single machine (often at the same cost as two individual machine but with a smaller footprint).

good luck
-kg

[Art Mulder]

When I was starting in the hobby I just had a tablesaw. I made it work.

A little later on I got a used Planer (Also called a "Thicknesser" in the UK).
For many years, I made it work.

Yes, "banana in == banana out", but still, with a bit of care there are many ways to still get perfectly workable lumber out the other end.


Finally, I saved up enough in the "hobby" part of the home budget to pick up a 6" Delta Jointer. Yes, it makes things better.

But if you could only get one, I'd get the planer.

[Jim Andrew]

You might be able to get by, using hand planes and lots of extra time, but if you want to accomplish much, you need both. You could probably get by with a lunchbox planer, (thicknesser), but I'd hate to get by with no jointer. It is also used to get a straight edge on boards, which I use as a mating surface for glueing. The neanders probably say all you need is a hand plane, but I like power tools.

[Matt Day]

Using US terminology:

If you want to buy rough sawn lumber you basically have two choices:
1) Have both a jointer and planer. The jointer is the first machine used and it makes one face square to one edge. The planer is used second and makes the other face parallel to the one milled on the jointer. The other edge can be make parallel on the table saw, the planer, or bandsaw, depending on the size/shape of the wood.
2) Have just a planer and use a "planer sled" (google it to learn about it more) to get 2 parallel faces. Then use a jointer and straight edge to get a flat and square edge. You'll probably get really tired and frustrated with this method if you go through a lot of wood with your projects.

If you just had a jointer, your sides might be flat but would not be parallel.

It's best to have both a jointer and planer.

[Tai Fu]

I am having the same dilemma too... I cannot buy surfaced lumber because they are often improperly dried, meaning if I buy it planed it won't be square a few months later because they weren't dried when it was surfaced, so I prefer roughsawn lumber so that I can surface it once it won't move anymore. However most jointers I have seen are 6" and planers average around 12" (which is enough). I don't see how I can join the face of lumber when it's only 6". I thought I can probably join one face, run it through a bandsaw to make the other face parallel and then run it through the jointer once on the rough side.

Currently I just plane the wood by hand, very tedious and I have no way of making sure that it's even square.

[Rick Potter]

Tai,

Perhaps you should check on a 12" combination jointer/planer. There are several on the market, some probably made near you. It would be nice to be able to both joint and plane a 12" board.

Look up Grizzly, and Hammer, for two models.

Rick Potter

[Glenn Vaughn]

I have put my hard hat and body armor on.

Most of the wood I use is 4/4 or 5/4 and 12+ inches wide. I have a 6" jointer making face jointing difficult. I use a 13" planer for the faces and have not had a problem removing cupping. For cupped boards I use very small increments to get one face flat then plane the other side to get it flat. Excessively cupped boards can be ripped to reduce the cupping on the pieces to a workable amount. A light cut puts less pressure on the board and then reduces the cjhances of pushing the board flat while planing (and it spring back to cupped on exit).

I try to avoid twisted or warped boards. IfI do get one, judicious cutting before planing can help eliminate planing problems.

Once I have flat/parallel faces the jointed is used to square and flatten one edge.

So far I have only had one board that I could not get flat berfore it got too thin.

[Tai Fu]

I am not in the US, but I am in Taiwan so I can't just buy Grizzly tools. While they are made here the factories that make them are not all that forthcoming about who they make what for, and in most cases won't even sell to individuals. In fact I have no idea who made my bandsaw, there must be 100 NDA's those factories had to sign meaning if they sold a machine they can't tell them who made it... it means I am heavily dependent on the dealer for parts/repair.

I have not seen a jointer/planer combination, all I have seen are separate machines. So the most common ones are 12" planers and 6" jointers, both benchtop. In fact most machines sold here are benchtop and I have to go to industrial suppliers for anything not benchtop. They have larger planers but I am short on money at the moment so I can't buy it now. I am looking for a decent table saw that doesn't take up too much room at the moment.

[scott spencer]

They're somewhat similar, but really perform different core functions. A jointer flattens a reference face and squares an edge to it. A planer creates a uniform thickness and makes two faces parallel to each other. Without a flat reference face, the planer will pretty much duplicate whatever randomness exists in the board, and makes it difficult to create a true 90° edge. You can use a planer sled to act a reference face on a planer in lieu of a jointer, but it's a bit more work. The two tools work great in tandem....watch Norm Abrams, Tommy Mac, the Wood Whisperer, or David Marcs ...they flatten a face on the jointer, square an edge on the jointer, then move to the planer to duplicate the opposite side to a uniform thickness. A jointer by itself won't make the two faces parallel to each other.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y203/hewood/Shop/Slide1.jpg
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y203/hewood/Shop/Presentation1.jpg

[scott spencer]

..................

op?

[Andrew Joiner]

I am having the same dilemma too..

Currently I just plane the wood by hand, very tedious and I have no way of making sure that it's even square.
To Eoin and Tai:
Google "Planer sled" You only need a lunch box benchtop planer to get rough stock flat. Low cost and simple.
I use planer sleds a lot. I have color coded shims of 3 taper sizes most are from 0" to 1/8". They are rough sawn on a bandsaw. The rough surface keeps them in place without hot glue. I set the stock on the sled,hold it to the front stop and lightly slide in shims till the stock is firm. The shims don't move as it goes thru the planer.

The key to success with a lightweight sled is a flat setup area level with the infeed table of your planer bed. You can't disturb the "package" of the stock shimmed firmly on the sled before it gets pulled in by the infeed roller. I grab the stock and push it tight to the sled as it comes out of the planer sliding on my outfeed table. If I need to take off more I crank up the planer 2 turns I can slide the "package" back thru without disturbing the shims. I check the shims before the second pass, but they are usually good or just need a slight shift to be firm.

This method is almost as fast as jointer and you have power feed! I spent a lot time at a jointer getting real tired pushing down on long stock. Sleds eliminate this and they get stock just as flat.
Here's more on my thoughts as I worked this out:
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?134633-A-Lightweight-8-Foot-Planer-Sled (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?134633-A-Lightweight-8-Foot-Planer-Sled)

[Wade Lippman]

I have found that with the planner I can plan one side flat then flip it over and get both sides parallel. With that done I square the edges with the table saw, work just fine for me.

If you are lucky enough to buy flat wood that works; but if your wood isn't flat going into a planer it won't be flat coming out either.

[Tai Fu]

that's what planer sleds are for...

[Kirk Poore]

I have put my hard hat and body armor on.

Most of the wood I use is 4/4 or 5/4 and 12+ inches wide. I have a 6" jointer making face jointing difficult. I use a 13" planer for the faces and have not had a problem removing cupping. For cupped boards I use very small increments to get one face flat then plane the other side to get it flat. Excessively cupped boards can be ripped to reduce the cupping on the pieces to a workable amount. A light cut puts less pressure on the board and then reduces the cjhances of pushing the board flat while planing (and it spring back to cupped on exit).

I try to avoid twisted or warped boards. IfI do get one, judicious cutting before planing can help eliminate planing problems.

Once I have flat/parallel faces the jointed is used to square and flatten one edge.

So far I have only had one board that I could not get flat berfore it got too thin.

Glenn:

I'm with you. I will run narrower (<8") boards over my jointer to get one side reasonably flat, but for wider stuff I go straight to the planer and take shallow passes (1/16"). Frankly, it isn't a big deal. I've never bothered with a sled. Now, I have an Oliver 399 18" planer, so big boards aren't too much of a problem, though I may have to help push or pull the worst ones through on the first pass. I'm also starting with 4/4 or better stock, and that thick isn't going to flatten out much from the feed rolls.

Kirk

[Andrew Joiner]

Glenn and Kirk, I agree you can get rough boards fairly flat with that method. A good sled set-up will get them as flat as a jointer can get them.

[Eoin Ryans]

Thanks for the replies guys - I will look at getting a good planer (or thicknesser here in UK & Ireland)!

[Eoin Ryans]

Are there any limitations to the planer sled idea? Is it that it just takes longer/ more effort to get the desired result? Will accuracy be compromised?
Thanks guys
Eoin

[Andrew Joiner]

Are there any limitations to the planer sled idea? Is it that it just takes longer/ more effort to get the desired result? Will accuracy be compromised?
Thanks guys
Eoin
No accuracy compromise,flat is flat. Yes it takes a little longer. Actually less effort because you have power feed. Another plus is you save the space a jointer takes up and it's infeed and outfeed areas.

[Rick Moyer]

Warning! Confusing and circular descriptions ahead.

What we (in N. America) call a jointer is used to make one face of rough and often twisted, cupped or bowed materials flat (or planar) and often to make one face and one edge of a board square to one another. If you run one face of a board through a jointer (aka JOINT THE BOARD) and then flip it over and do the same to the opposite face, there is absolutely no guarantee of the faces being co-planar when you're done, and the chances of such happening are probably very small.

What we call a planer in N. America, doesn't make things planar, it just makes things thinner (though one can employ various jigs to use a planer to make things planar). So, if you put a twisted, warped or cupped board into a planer, a thinner twisted, warped or cupped board comes out the other end. However when you put the perfectly flat face that you created with a jointer on the reference surface of the planer (it's bed) a thinner, board with two flat and co-planar faces comes out the other end.

I suspect Eoin may be outside the US which would confuse matters further.
In much of the rest of the world they call a jointer a planer and they call a planer a thicknesser - so the machines' names actually described their function more accurately.

http://www.recordpower.co.uk/category/planing--thicknessing

Eoin, you probably want one of each if you're doing work that requires square and co-planar solid wood stock (if you're making Windsor chairs or small boxes or casework from sheet goods or whatever, it might not be needed). If you can only get one, get a planer and find another way to joint boards or take a straight edge and winding sticks to the lumber yard to pick out the flattest possible stock (there there is no guarantee it will stay flat since wood moves). Of course the other option is a combination machine which incorporates the functional of both into a single machine (often at the same cost as two individual machine but with a smaller footprint).

good luck
-kg
Resurrecting this thread because I have been thinking about our terminology on these two tools lately for some reason.
I sure wish we (Americans, or North Americans in this case) didn't have to complicate things. Why can't we call these tools "thicknessers" and "planers"(planars) instead of planers and jointers? The other terms are much more intuitive and accurate. A thicknesser dimensions the thickness of the board and the planer surface one side to be a plane(planar). In our terms, a planer does not make a surface planar, and a jointer doesn't directly involve joinery. May as well call a tablesaw a "dimensioner"; at least that would be somewhat intuitive. :confused:
OK, rant off.

[John Schweikert]

a jointer doesn't directly involve joinery

Well, yes it does. Long edge joining of boards for table tops, panels, etc is a very common use for a jointer.

[Andrew Hughes]

I think your may have to let this one go,It's not something new the invoice for my oliver jointer calls it a hand planer and jointer.It was wrote by someone in 1960.

Its just one of those things.

[Joe Hillmann]

You could buy a planer "thicknesser" and do your jointing with a hand plane and winding sticks. You don't need to get it perfect with the hand plane, just a good enough so the high points can act as a reference surface on the bed of the planer.

[Alan Lightstone]

I've always wondered if a planer sled decreases snipe. Does it?

[John Schweikert]

Snipe is a funny thing, not ha-ha but just odd with respect to why some get it and some don't. I wonder if it's an issue of design, manufacturing or how well the user sets up the beds. I have a Dewalt 733 which I can't even remember when it was bought (15 years?) but I experience absolutely zero snipe, none visually, none from measuring with a caliper. It's a decent but by no means high quality planer.