Shaper cope & stick: bearing-guided or remove full edge?

[Mark Burnette]

I've been using the same reversible cope & stick cutter (with bearing) for 20 years on my Sears 1/2" shaper. Now I have a Delta HD so I've been looking at adding to my cutter collection. Besides all the profile choices I also get to choose between stack sets with a bearing or the kind that removes the entire edge. I like how the bearing makes fence position and measurements easier but are there advantages to the other kind?

[Rod Sheridan]

Mark, with a stock feeder and an outboard fence, you use a non bearing set to profile and dimension in one pass.

If you do need a bearing/guide ring to produce curved rails, then you add a bearing to the assembly to ride on the pattern.

The bearing/guide ring can be added to any cutter. I have an assortment in 5mm increments, with 1 1/4" bore and 30mm bore..........Rod.

[Chris Rosenberger]

I use Delta HD shapers. I always run a guide bearing, for safety reasons, when shaping the rail edges. Even when using a stock feeder. I use a pneumatic coping sled to do the copes, so no guide bearing for that.

[Peter Quinn]

Taking a full cut is IMO a much better proposition, but you can still use a bearing to set your out feed fence if you choose. It will generally ride above the cutter stack where it wont interfere with anything, and if you buy it with the set you will always have it for curved work. If you are removing material the infeed fence will set the depth of cut, I'd keep that to 1/16" max, the outfeed is flush to the bearing or cutters minimum radius. The back fence Rod mentioned is a fine way to avoid the bearing all together and get the full cut while dimensioning your parts precisely at the same time.

[Mark Burnette]

With the type of stack set that requires a bearing--isn't the bearing the wrong size the first time you sharpen the cutters?

[Peter Quinn]

Yes, but only by a little unless major repairs are needed. We've actually sent the bearings out with a set and had them turned down to match, there are limits to how far you can take this. You could go with an aluminum ring and collar set up, then they can turn the collars way down as they sharpen, or insert heads solve the problem completely. But given carbide is good for 50k LF the average home shop won't have too many issues with a standard braised set, that's a lot of doors between sharpenings assuming you don't hit rocks or staples.

[Jeff Duncan]

Almost all Pro shops remove the edge as it provides a better quality of cut. In fact the best way to run sticking IMHO is to set up an outboard fence so you both profile and finish size your stock in one pass! Obviously this requires a feeder but I don't recommend running sticking on a shaper without a feeder regardless of which way you run it.

good luck,
JeffD

[Stephen Cherry]

I think that it's universally agreed upon to take the full pattern cut using an outboard fence. It can't use a bearing. Here is one thread with a rundown on how to do it (it's a little more complex that what may be needed for doors because it's a general purpose setup- for doors you could use a fixed reference to the miter slot).

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?135238-The-main-reason-to-have-a-shaper

For the cope, I do not know why you would want to use the bearing there. I've been working on a new cope setup that takes a cut on both ends of the tenons also; and no bearing for that.

Bearings for arched doors only? and there you would prefer to have the bearing on top and make a full pattern cut.

One thing I would recommend is looking at the weaver site. They make equipment for production shops, but the setups of the machines could be adapted to the home shop. There is a lot of good information there.

[Mel Fulks]

Using the out board fence is a good way .But a long way from being universal . I prefer an offset fence because some shops still have those worthless rubber tires that won't grip. As to coping I like using same machine as described before,that way no adjustment is made between cope and stick other than swapping fences by clamping each on its own tape marks and placing (on some sets) a thin shim under the sticking set. When you are an employee you can't always tie up two shapers. Weaver stuff is OK if you are ONLY going to make doors. I think they are too limited for general use.And I have seen them sold in what amounted to a carnival barker presentation . STEP UP AND MAKE A DOOR!

[Mark Burnette]

Using the out board fence is a good way .But a long way from being universal . I prefer an offset fence because some shops still have those worthless rubber tires that won't grip.
How much is enough? I have 2 sets of urethane tires, one much softer than the other. Both don't grip all that tight and I can stop the board by hand. It doesn't look like increasing downforce is possible or recommended on my LD feeder (an old Unifeeder).

[Mel Fulks]

The urethane tires are usually color coded .If they are yellow ,blue ,or green ;they should be fine .We usually buy the yellow . I would set the feeder height to where the material raises the tires almost a quarter inch and use enuf angle to hold .you can test a narrow pc without turning on the shaper. Just the feeder.

[Jeff Duncan]

How much is enough? I have 2 sets of urethane tires, one much softer than the other. Both don't grip all that tight and I can stop the board by hand. It doesn't look like increasing downforce is possible or recommended on my LD feeder (an old Unifeeder).

Somethings wrong with your setup! I'm not too familiar with the Unifeeder but with moderate pressure, (say 1/8" of deflection), you should NOT be able to stop the board. ON a decent feeder with 3 wheels engaged the feeder will pull you through the machine with the workpiece:eek:

The stock rubber wheels are lousy and I don't know why any manufacturers still use them? They glaze over much too quickly and can allow the work to slip if your not vigilant in maintaining them.

good luck,
JeffD

[Mark Burnette]

Maybe I need to ignore the instructions and lower the feeder. I have a set of yellow tires on one and blue on the other. I didnt know the color was more/less a standard of the tire durometer.

[Stephen Cherry]

Maybe I need to ignore the instructions and lower the feeder. I have a set of yellow tires on one and blue on the other. I didnt know the color was more/less a standard of the tire durometer.


Wax on, wax off- (don't forget to wax the shaper table)

[Mel Fulks]

Yep. I should add the yellow last a lot longer than blue or green .Some of the smaller feeders just don't hold as well as the larger ones . But with the good tires I think you can make it work for cuts that small. If shaper has more than one speed it should be on the fastest. Test with a scrap piece at least 18 inches long with feeder on slower speed ,if that works you might want to increase feed rate .Too slow a feed will probably leave some burn marks

[Jeff Duncan]

Maybe I need to ignore the instructions and lower the feeder. I have a set of yellow tires on one and blue on the other. I didnt know the color was more/less a standard of the tire durometer.

Yup, the different colors reflect the duromters and the different durometers are for different materials. For instance....yellow tires are your best bet for domestic hardwoods. I don't know the correlation between the other colors, only the yellow b/c when I ordered mine from Western Roller that's what was recommended for my needs! I'm sure if you were running mostly softwoods they may recommend a different tire. However that doesn't mean whichever you have won't work.

How many wheels does the Unifeeder utilize? You can certainly optimize the setup as Mel suggested, however I'm more worried about your statement that you can stop the board feeding by hand! Make sure your tires are clean and try to set them so they have about 1/8" - 1/4" of deflection. If you have it set like that and you can stop the board without really straining there's something not right. Maybe too much flex in the feeder arm or....:confused:

JeffD

[Peter Quinn]

Make sure all three tires are parallel to the table in both planes (end to end and front to back) too with all settings locked down. Old feeders tend to develope some slop in the adjustment mechanisms, it can lead to one tire or one edge (or both) doing most of the pushing. And that can result in poor hold down pressure and you being able to move the boards. Like others I set the wheels about 1/4" below the height of the stock. Much more does little to increase hold down pressure, much less can cause chatter or worse under heavy load. The urethane wheels on my steff are red, they grab like a hungry monkey holds a banana. I have no idea what the durameter is. Is color universal or does each vendor have their own system? Mine are oem I'm pretty sure.

[Mel Fulks]

Peter,from what you have just written the color coding must vary among companies. I have only bought from Western Roller.

[Mark Burnette]

I have the 34-150 Unifeeder. It's not the most adjustable feeder ever conceived but its compactness makes it strong & easy to set up. For the shaper I have the companion dedicated fence. Instructions are to adjust the wheels so the outer plastic gauge just touches--which is only about 1/8" deflection.

http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u273/guy48065/Shop/UniShaper_zps23d7761d.jpg

[Erik Christensen]

I do a full cut on both profiles - with a matched set of cutters that makes for a really nice fit for the rail/stile intersection. My 4 wheel feeder with yellow tires is impossible to stop once a single roller has engaged the wood (i use a 3/16" deflection as the manual recommended). Main reason for using a power feeder on the edge cuts besides keeping my fingers safely away from the cutter is that I have found a climb cut gives me so much better results that is all I ever use these days.

[Mark Burnette]

When the height is adjusted per the instructions I measure just .2" tire deflection so I tried increasing to about .3" and this made a big difference. I can still make the tire slip with only the infeed tire in contact, but once both tires are on the board I can't stop it by hand. So I tried a climb cut for the first time. Running a poplar board through my sticking set there was a little chatter when only the outfeed tire was in contact, but the cut was great with no slipping. I might have to come up with some sort of featherboard or roller that stays in contact with the wood between the tires.

Next I might try an outboard fence and back off the inboard fence just to see how that feels.

[Stephen Cherry]

I can still make the tire slip with only the infeed tire in contact,

So I tried a climb cut for the first time. .

One thing to remember is that if the feeder slips while climb cutting the board can be shot out like a cannon! (don't ask) So you want to make sure there is something to shoot into other than the neibors chihuahua. AND NEVER STAND IN LINE WITH THE BOARD ON THE WAY IN OR OUT.

Personally, I would like to have more than 2 wheels for climb cut, preferably one with 4 sticky western roller rollers.

[Mel Fulks]

I agree with Stephen. Beyond that ,if you are removing 1/16 th and have enough rpm you should not routinely need to rely on climb cutting. A better surface is actually left by standard cut and learning to recognize best orientation of wood grain.

[Peter Quinn]

I agree with Stephen. Beyond that ,if you are removing 1/16 th and have enough rpm you should not routinely need to rely on climb cutting. A better surface is actually left by standard cut and learning to recognize best orientation of wood grain.

Thanks god somebody has put that in print here on the creek. And that's two things we agree on now Mel! There is this phalicy that climb cutting always produces a better cut. It doesn't. It may help avoid tearout on difficult grain with small cutters that are no longer sharp, or some combination of these factors. Best to slow down, use sharp tooling, larger diameter helps if thats possible, light pass is cleaner than hogging. Climbed surfaces are always fuzzy textured with odd knife marks, not a nice shaved clean cut like standard feed.

Please disregard my previous remarks about feeder, I have never used that type you have. Though it sounds like you may have found a solution? Perhaps as the tires wear the feeder must be lowered? When I do climb I like to have two wheels on the infeed and at least one on the outboard side. You bight be able to screw a pressure board right to the fence pushing down to minimize chatter going either direction.

[Mark Burnette]

Well I'm glad that climb cut superiority is a myth--or at least no clear advantage. While it did well this feeder has limited adjustment in angling the wheels towards the fence. I couldn't get much angle at all in the climb direction & so was using feather boards to keep the stock against the fence. If I remove the height screw & handle the feeder will then swing all around the post to give any angle I could want--but you can imagine it's hard to adjust the height with no lift mechanism.

[Mark Burnette]

So do y'all use the feeder for larger stock too-- like raising panels?

[Erik Christensen]

Not to hijack the thread with a climb-cut discussion, but Peter's experience does not match mine. I have a 5 HP powermatic shaper and the shaker rail/style cutters I use are 1 1/4" spindle large carbide insert cutters that are factory sharp (if not I rotate them) - when I do a regular cut in straight grained maple/cherry I get chip out a lot - changing feed direction and/or feeder speed had no real effect nor did multiple passes. Switching to a climb cut elimanted chipout and left a finished edge that was ready for finish - if it was fuzzy it was discernible by feel or sight. I have a reversible shaper and 4 wheel feeder so if I am going to go through the setup hassle to use the feeder I almost always choose a climb cut as that seems to work the best for me.

the only downside I experience with climb cuts is the significant reduction in chip collection even with a 5 hp 6" fixed cyclone DC

like many topics here you will get all kinds of opinions from all kinds of sources based on all kinds of experiences - each if us has to use our common sense and figure out for our shop with out tools and projects what works best

[Mel Fulks]

Yeah,Mark. The right answer to when you should use the feeder is WHENEVER YOU CAN. I'm not familiar with the feeder you have,but not being able to get side tilt is a bad limitation.

[Rod Sheridan]

So do y'all use the feeder for larger stock too-- like raising panels?

Use the feeder as often as possible, not only does it produce superior results, it provides a safety barrier to keep your fingers out of the cutter.

You do need a feeder however that tilts over on the side so it can push against the fence, or the table.............Regards, Rod.

[Mel Fulks]

Erik,no one doubts your experience ,but under the same conditions our results will be the same .Not random. The squarish nature of the shaker set is one factor ,rounds alway cut smoother than flats . Everyone in this trade cringes when they hear the customer say "this is an easy one ,everything is just square". At times climb cut is needed. Learning to quickly judge grain direction is important. Run carbide on the highest speed. Another thing that helps is a slight rounding of corners by quickly climb cutting with a small round over cutter, that gets rid of the 'loose threads' that instantly 'unravels the sweater' before you make your REAL cut. For just a piece or two you can just kill the sharp edge with sandpaper,but of course, that leaves some grit not helpful to cutters. The feeder is always worth setting up whenever it can possibly be used. I think having the edge that is being cut against the fence can help,too. But have and do use the back fence method at times.

[Mark Burnette]

Use the feeder as often as possible, not only does it produce superior results, it provides a safety barrier to keep your fingers out of the cutter.

You do need a feeder however that tilts over on the side so it can push against the fence, or the table.............Regards, Rod.

"Need"? I don't plan to ever do any large wide moldings like crown, chair rail, etc. Other than those, what sort of cuts would a hobbyist make on a 3/4" spindle (non tilting) shaper that require the stock to be vertical?

[Rod Sheridan]

Well, I use mine for grooving drawer bottoms, and I use it for lock mitre joints, both of which have the material against the fence.

I also use it for ripping thin strips.............Regards, Rod.

[Jeff Duncan]

"Need"? I don't plan to ever do any large wide moldings like crown, chair rail, etc. Other than those, what sort of cuts would a hobbyist make on a 3/4" spindle (non tilting) shaper that require the stock to be vertical?

Well I think "need" is a strong word. Most hobbyists don't "need" a shaper. The thing is if you start doing more and more work with the shaper it's nice to have the flexibility and ruggedness of a true 3 wheel feeder....or not;) It's all about what YOU do and what YOU need to do it. If you can get your Unifeeder to do what you need then that's all you can really ask for.

As for the climb cut argument I have the same philosophy....if it works for you then by all means go for it. I've done it in the past and it was fine. I now have a larger shaper and haven't had a need for it. I cut wood and rarely bother to watch for grain unless it's something really gnarly. There's another argument that running everything with a climb cut reduces knife edge longevity...granted not a real problem for the home shop:rolleyes:

Of course if you want the best possible finish you'll want to run HSS anyway as it takes a sharper edge than carbide, and in a good shaper leaves an almost flawless finish....just dulls faster than carbide:D

good luck,
JeffD

[Mel Fulks]

I might be overly old fashioned about looking at grain.It was the first thing I was taught to do when using ancient stickers,every piece of wood had to have a penciled face mark that would contact machine beds for every operation.They were relatively slow rpm machines so we had to take grain into consideration. Too many torn out pieces and you wouldn't get that next 10 cent raise! I am a believer in consistent work habits.

[Peter Quinn]

I might be overly old fashioned about looking at grain.It was the first thing I was taught to do when using ancient stickers,every piece of wood had to have a penciled face mark that would contact machine beds for every operation.They were relatively slow rpm machines so we had to take grain into consideration. Too many torn out pieces and you wouldn't get that next 10 cent raise! I am a believer in consistent work habits.

I have no hard fast rules about climbing, its just not generally my first option. I'm about to run a pile of doors, all in ash. One face textured, so I have little choice about orientation, its been brushed A face up, that choice has been made. But the cutters are 4" diameter, 3Z braised, very sharp, and ash is fairly easy to mill, so its going counter cut through the shaper. Tests show it should be fine. I've hit soft maple where the grain on 70% of the boards had a switch back, so feed either way, your going the wrong way at some point, and it really wanted to break out right at the front end of each switch back along the groove. 3Z braized tooling, 3" diameter, very sharp, wound up climbing it all. I'm not afraid to lose a few parts, buy not 60%! Doug Fir....I just climb it, its like milling rope regardless of most other factors. But recently I ran some base cap with a vari angle head, razor sharp insert carbide, 7" diameter head....standard rotation, no chipping, smooth as a babies bottom over 1000LF. Easy profile to mill admittedly, just a large chamfer, but I'm thinking the easy exit angle of the large heads has a big impact. My experience and intuition suggests right round 5" and up is the sweet spot where tear out drops off due to exit angle all else being equal, and under 4" is where it starts rearing its ugly head quick. I've spun 3 1/2" heads and its hit and miss. I guess other factors play in too, shear angle of the tooling, spurs versus no spurs on inserts, 2Z versus 3Z at a given feed speed. I guess you have to keep eyes open and adjust to conditions as necessary, but I guess my original though was that climbing should not be a life style choice or a forgone conclusion. I've been slowly switching to garniga or other euro tooling, and with that climbing is largely irrelevant do to spurs? diameter? insert sharpness? I actually read some where, lost in my foggy mind, a good explanation of why counter feed (standard rotation against feed direction) produced a better surface, something about shaving versus lifting/chopping fibers? Of course given the choice of tear out versus a little sanding, I'll go climbing any day. I've never seen any cut off a shaper or moulder that was ready for finish.

[Stephen Cherry]

Great responses guys; one thing that I like about this forum is that people are willing to freely share information that has been earned with plenty of effort.

How about rpm- I use 4" freeborn door sets at 10k, and 6" panel raisers at 8k- does this sound right? I've been told by a reliable source to turn the brazed cutters fast for a better cut. Could you go 10K on a 6" panel raiser?

[Mel Fulks]

Yeah ,6 inch carbide could handle 10,000 unless labeled other wise. A lot of those bigger cutters have a warning to not go over 12,000 printed on them .But I haver seen a shaper faster than 10,000. For raising WOOD panels I prefer m2 steel in the flat corg head like Schmidt and others sell. Other here have had good results on wood panels with carbide insert tooling. I do very little sanding on panel raises cut with steel.

[J.R. Rutter]

Good discussion. I'll just chime in to opine that the type and condition of the shaper itself can make the difference between climb vs counter cut. When I was finally able to go to big industrial shapers that ran butter smooth even with stacked spindles, the need to climb cut most things just went away. I got much better results from my Powermatic 26/27 when climb cutting sticking.

[Mel Fulks]

Interesting to hear that the extra smoothness can make that much difference,thanks.

[Jeff Duncan]

You can certainly run your panel cutter that fast if its rated for it, but the thing to keep in mind is matching the head speed to the feed speed and material being cut! For instance....I recently picked up an Innovator head which is roughly 6"+ in diameter. With carbide knives hand feeding 3/4" mdf I run my machine at 4500 rpm's. At that speed I can feed the material at a good pace and get a very nice finish. If I were to run the head at 8000 rpm's I would not be able to feed fast enough and would have to worry about burnishing the wood, as well as killing the carbide too quickly! Carbide is a great material but you have to make sure you keep your feed speed fast enough to keep it from overheating and prematurely dulling. Simply put...the faster you spin your head, the faster your feed should be;)

I agree with Mel that HSS will give you a cleaner cut in hardwoods, it's just balancing the longer cutter life with quality of finish. As I mostly do mdf for paint grade panels I mostly run carbide. Although I also use Freeborn carbide sets for sticking cuts as the HSS just doesn't last long enough, and the finish off of the carbide is certainly good enough for this application. I do notice the difference in quality whenever I'm using the steel though;)

I also agree with Peter that you can't always run with the grain. I run a LOT of maple and it changes grain direction regularly. Doesn't matter which way you send the board through, at some point it will be against the grain. Having heavy shapers and good tooling goes a long way in getting quality cuts. I was fairly content with the quality of cut off the Powermatic as it was better than the Delta I had before it. It was when I moved to an industrial shaper that I realized how good a cut was possible! I still wouldn't try to finish anything without sanding, but it takes a lot less sanding these days:D

good luck,
JeffD