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Rick Potter
03-09-2013, 10:27 PM
When the Prius, and other hybrids came out there were estimates all over the map about how long the batteries would last and what it would cost to replace the pack. One Toyota salesman told me it would cost about $5K, someone else told me the first replacement was included, and others have told me about $3K.

So....now that these cars have been around a while, I am curious to know how long the batteries lasted, and what is the real life replacement cost.

Actually, since I am in the process of getting Solar, I may decide on an all-electric city car. Then again.....


Thanks,
Rick Potter

ray hampton
03-09-2013, 10:53 PM
I do not know about electric cars battery but how much do forklift batteries cost ? I believe that the electric fork lift had been around for longer than the electric cars

David Weaver
03-09-2013, 11:12 PM
The NiMH battery packs were spec'd at a cost of $3k, and they might be less now. The last time I read something about them, it said that they are generally replaced after accidents but as a matter of routine use, they don't fail. Key probably being (I don't know anything about the prius) they're never overcharged and never allowed discharge completely either.

Same comment was made about the battery pack for the volt when they came out , that because they aren't allowed to go below 25% or above 90% (correct me if I'm wrong), they should last indefinitely (insert fire joke here).

Mike Henderson
03-09-2013, 11:12 PM
I think forklift batteries are older technology than what's used in electric cars. As such, they may be less expensive.

Mike

Matt Meiser
03-09-2013, 11:16 PM
Pretty sure forklifts use lead acid batteries. Since they need ballast anyway, the weight isn't an issue like a car.

Googling, I found that you can get Prius batteries rebuilt for as little as $850.

David Weaver
03-09-2013, 11:17 PM
I do not know about electric cars battery but how much do forklift batteries cost ? I believe that the electric fork lift had been around for longer than the electric cars

No restriction on their weight, though, so they can be lead acid batteries. I just googled them and they are in the same ballpark as the prius battery for price, depending on what voltage and how big.

They had them at the cabinet factory and unlike the ones at lowes that putter around, they were in constant motion fully loaded. The batteries rolled right in and right out of them. I can't see why a similar system (but with newer technology) could be set up so that you exchange battery packs at a charging station where you don't own a specific core, but instead own a right to a core at any given time.

Well, aside from the cost of the batteries, cars and the startup capital.

Rick Potter
03-10-2013, 1:01 AM
Lets restart this please.

I never mentioned anything about fork lift batteries. I was asking about the Toyota Prius, and other hybrid powered cars.

Thanks,

Rick P

Greg Peterson
03-10-2013, 1:24 AM
Friend of mine has a 2007 Prius with 165k on it. Still going the original batteries and have had no problems with the car.

Brian Elfert
03-10-2013, 8:01 AM
A co-worker had a 2001 Prius. He got 150,000 miles on the original battery. Replacement was $3,100 labor included. The newer Prius models may get even better battery life. He didn't have an issue paying the $3100. He still saved at least 2,000 gallons of gas over a similar non-hybrid.

Dan Hintz
03-10-2013, 9:28 AM
as a matter of routine use, they don't fail.

they should last indefinitely (insert fire joke here).

I wish that were true, but no matter what battery chemistry you choose, they all have a finite life. After a certain number of charge cycles, the chemistry can no longer hold a charge for long, so it's time to replace. Li-ion, for example, keeps a good charge for a large number of cycles, but as you approach the end of life, capacity practically drops off of a cliff... basically, it seems to last forever, and then one day it seems to last for 5 minutes. From what little I've read, the Prius batteries tend to hit this mark around the 150-175k miles mark, with replacements coming in under $4k (though initially they were supposed to be up to $15k to replace).

David Weaver
03-10-2013, 9:39 AM
When niMH batteries in a prius lose their capacity though, it doesn't matter as much because the car doesn't depend on them for range and it never lets them cycle fully.

I wonder if there is a climate component on the life of the battery. Toyota's expected service life of 180,000 miles specified a 1% failure rate for batteries during the service life.

Some cab company in CA said they trade cars at 300k miles and they haven't yet replaced a battery.

BUT, there are other posts with people mentioning battery replacement early, including one where someone said they do a lot of slow driving and discharge the battery on purpose.

I'd love to have a prius, but it's too small for our primary car (kids) and the second car in the house gets driven about 1500 miles a year, so it wouldn't do much.

Jim Matthews
03-10-2013, 10:39 AM
May I suggest a link to a vendor involved in something similar?

Plug-in supply (http://www.pluginsupply.com/)I contacted them about a plug in conversion with a Ford Escape Hybrid, but the math didn't support the purchase.
(If you're driving less than 6kmiles per year, it's not cost-effective to make the switch.)

Rick Potter
03-11-2013, 2:17 AM
Thank you for the real numbers guys, I appreciate it. Jim, your post lead to some interesting reading, which I enjoyed.

Rick Potter

Jim Matthews
03-11-2013, 7:32 AM
In my opinion, the real synergy is between a net-metered solar panel and a vehicle that can be charged (even partially) from house current.

I just can't justify the cost for these, given the amount of driving I do.
I'm mainly taking my kids to school, and at less than 6000 miles per year
the cost of ownership is too high to make the leap to hybrids.

I would also recommend looking into Air conditioners that use passive solar to preheat their coils.
There's an Australian company that's pioneering the design, I believe the California market is their first US exposure.

Dan Hintz
03-11-2013, 8:15 AM
Whenever I see mileage mentioned in someone's decision to purchase a hybrid, I think they're missing the point of why you get one (though that's not to say mileage shouldn't be a factor). Hybrids are big for city drivers who spend a lot of time in traffic. If you spend a lot of time at stoplights, a gas engine is chugging away producing energy that isn't being used. A hybrid can sit there all day using extremely little charge. Go out on the highway, however, and the hybrid doesn't have nearly the same benefit.

If you drive 6000 miles a year, and most of that is sitting in traffic, the hybrid is still often a good deal... the amount of gas you save in a year can be tremendous. You'll spend $600/yr in gas with a hybrid, but possibly 3-4 times that in a regular car. If it's a 20 miles a day on the highway, then a regular car will be significantly more cost-effective.

Nutshell? Look at your driving habits, not a sticker on the window.

Joe Pelonio
03-11-2013, 10:01 PM
Friend of mine has a 2007 Prius with 165k on it. Still going the original batteries and have had no problems with the car.
Same with a relative of mine, but it only has 65,000 on it. Those batteries are fine so far, but the regular (12v) battery went out and it was over $500 to replace. Had to take out the back seat to get to it the dealer said.

Brian Elfert
03-11-2013, 11:05 PM
Whenever I see mileage mentioned in someone's decision to purchase a hybrid, I think they're missing the point of why you get one (though that's not to say mileage shouldn't be a factor). Hybrids are big for city drivers who spend a lot of time in traffic. If you spend a lot of time at stoplights, a gas engine is chugging away producing energy that isn't being used. A hybrid can sit there all day using extremely little charge. Go out on the highway, however, and the hybrid doesn't have nearly the same benefit.


Doesn't not running the engine when stopped equal higher MPG? The Prius is one of the few cars rated for higher MPG in the city than on the highway. My co-worker still gets 50+ MPG even driving most of his 20 to 25 mile commute on the highway.

Another former co-worker lives within 1/4 mile of the first co-worker and also has a Prius. He got 5 MPG better because he drove on city streets only, but it costs him 30 minutes a day in time. He saved less than 50 cents a day in gas for 30 minutes a day more away from his family. I know he isn't hurting for money.

Matt Meiser
03-11-2013, 11:17 PM
There are a few cars out there and more coming with Run-Start technology which is a conventional engine, electrically powered accessories (i.e. electric AC compressor) and an AGM battery which can support longer sustained current draw. When you stop at a light, the engine shuts off. They get something like 10% better fuel economy city.

Dan Hintz
03-12-2013, 7:58 AM
Doesn't not running the engine when stopped equal higher MPG?

That's what I was saying... how many people do you know who shut off their ICE when sitting at a stoplight? Not many, as it's pretty hard on the engine (and the battery). So a car (e.g., Prius) that can roll up to a light without the engine running, wait for 3 minutes, then start off again without ever turning on the ICE saves gas.

Don Orr
03-12-2013, 11:12 AM
My 2010 Prius came with an 8 year/100,000 mile battery warranty. Next door neighbor has a much earlier one with well over 100k and no problems. We have 4 Priuses (NOT Prii-I asked at the dealer) between our 2 homes. I drive 20+ miles to work each way and get 45+ mpg. Much better than the <20 I used to get.

Dan Hintz
03-12-2013, 11:44 AM
Much better than the <20 I used to get.

What the heck were you driving before? The 360HP V6 in my 370Z gets me 24MPG all day long...

Joe Angrisani
03-12-2013, 12:18 PM
What the heck were you driving before? The 360HP V6 in my 370Z gets me 24MPG all day long...

It might get 24mpg all day long, but not if you're actually tapping into that 360hp. ;)

Brian Elfert
03-12-2013, 12:33 PM
That's what I was saying... how many people do you know who shut off their ICE when sitting at a stoplight? Not many, as it's pretty hard on the engine (and the battery). So a car (e.g., Prius) that can roll up to a light without the engine running, wait for 3 minutes, then start off again without ever turning on the ICE saves gas.

Your original message strongly implied that the engine shutting off instead of idling was more important than mileage. I have my doubts that shutting off the engine saves that much fuel. The Prius does not shut off the engine during cold temps in part to heat the cabin. Toyota must have done something special to the engine to keep it lubricated between starts.

Other car companies have talked about shutting down engines when stopped, but hardly anyone is doing it. UPS trucks get shut down at every delivery stop. They did the analysis and decided the starting/stopping was cheaper than the fuel to idle.

Dan Hintz
03-12-2013, 12:46 PM
Your original message strongly implied that the engine shutting off instead of idling was more important than mileage.

The engine shutting down when it's not needed (such as at a stoplight) is the biggest savings. Hybrids can do this, but the standard ICE vehicle just sips gas the entire time you're sitting there.

Mike Henderson
03-12-2013, 1:15 PM
The engine shutting down when it's not needed (such as at a stoplight) is the biggest savings. Hybrids can do this, but the standard ICE vehicle just sips gas the entire time you're sitting there.
I've heard from friends who travel in Europe that the standard cars (not hybrids) now shut down the engine when you're stopped and it starts up when you press on the accelerator. They claim the startup is so quick you don't notice any significant delay.

Mike

David Weaver
03-12-2013, 1:59 PM
Your original message strongly implied that the engine shutting off instead of idling was more important than mileage. I have my doubts that shutting off the engine saves that much fuel. The Prius does not shut off the engine during cold temps in part to heat the cabin. Toyota must have done something special to the engine to keep it lubricated between starts.

Other car companies have talked about shutting down engines when stopped, but hardly anyone is doing it. UPS trucks get shut down at every delivery stop. They did the analysis and decided the starting/stopping was cheaper than the fuel to idle.

If your car has a real-time mileage calculated based on a throttle position sensor, you can get an idea of how much it costs in mileage. Where my parents live, it's little, because you rarely sit anywhere.

Where I live, there are lights that you can sit at for greater than 3 minutes, in some cases twice in a 1 or two mile range. When we got our last car (the first one I got with an instantaneous read of mileage) I was shocked how fast idling can pull the mileage down. Anyone who lives in a suburban area and doesn't have a straight shot into town probably spends 5-10 minutes at lights on a 10-15 mile commute.

I would imagine that it would improve mileage on my car by 10% (did someone quote something earler?) I'll be on my parents' car, it would only be worth a fifth of that, because they're rural and they usually avoid traffic lights if they can.

Mel Fulks
03-12-2013, 2:07 PM
David, I have a nephew living in your area now and I hear about all the bridges, rivers ,and moutains. So I can understand what you are saying about the lights. Unusual place.

Jim Matthews
03-12-2013, 2:30 PM
Nutshell? Look at your driving habits, not a sticker on the window.

Too right. I changed my route from the stop-and-go joys of Fall River, MA to the parallel Highway with a slight increase in distance.
My fuel consumption has fallen by nearly 8%. Extrapolating the fuel costs and amoritization it would take me 24 years to break even on a Hybrid, at new prices.

(I want the new Accord, but $40k?! - no way.)

As Dan has intimated, if you're heavy on either the brake or gas pedal, you're turning fuel into heat instead of forward motion.
I drive as if I were skiing into a crowded lift line - sometimes coasting slower gets me there faster than running flat out.

For those that might be interested in the mentioned synergy between a roof array of PVE and hybrids, Honda has apparently begun to partner with SolarCity to deploy more home systems.
I can't really follow why they're doing this - it might be to get ahead of the looming Carbon tax initiatives...

http://www.hondasolarcity.com/

David Weaver
03-12-2013, 2:55 PM
David, I have a nephew living in your area now and I hear about all the bridges, rivers ,and moutains. So I can understand what you are saying about the lights. Unusual place.

Somewhere around 1900 bridges in the county, and I think about 60 cross rivers.

One thing about the hills (other than the unfortunate issue of stop lights being at the bottom of them because you'd have a blind turn if you had them at the tops), unless you live on top of one, you never feel like you're close to a big city in a lot of the suburbs, you can't see far enough before you see another hill to really be able to tell.

I live in the northern area of the city, which is more or less the newest and least developed. It does help. Some of the folks tied to older areas by family have really long duration commutes. They should get the hybrids first.

(my mileage was between 25 and 30% better where I grew up than it is here. I can't make city mileage EPA ratings in combination driving and I have a light foot).

Brian Elfert
03-12-2013, 3:47 PM
I sure hope the engine shutdown technology spreads beyond hybrids. I don't know how much it would save me because I am two blocks from the highway. I have more issues with the stop and go driving on the highway killing my mileage than anything. If I had it on my motorhome it wouldn't save anything because I usually drive at a steady speed for hours and hours. Stops are few and far between.

Jason Roehl
03-12-2013, 5:24 PM
Just an example of how little fuel engines use while idling: a friend had a Nissan Frontier pickup (probably a couple years old at most at the time, this was 10-12 years ago), with a 6-cylinder engine--I don't recall the size, but probably in the 3.0-3.5L range. He, his wife and their infant son were going to go somewhere in the winter one evening, so he went out and started the pickup to get it warmed up, then went back inside the house. While in there, they decided not to go, but he forgot he had started the pickup, so it idled all night. He didn't discover it for probably 12-14 hours. He said his gas gauge had gone down about 1/8 of a tank, so probably 2-3 gallons tops. That seems pretty miserly to me. A few minutes idling here and there at a stop light aren't going to amount to much. The greater guzzling is going to be the acceleration from a stop. How hard one accelerates will have an effect (the old imagine-an-egg-between-your-foot-and-the-gas-pedal), but it's an energy intensive maneuver regardless.

Dan Hintz
03-12-2013, 8:03 PM
Jason,

An idling engine will go through about 0.5-1 gal/hr (depending upon injector number and size, of course). On the low end, that's 6 gallons for 12-14 hours... with a huge tank like that found on trucks (25 gallons?), that's about a quarter of a tank. Nothing to sneeze at in the long haul.

David Weaver
03-12-2013, 8:19 PM
I didn't find anything from the epa, but a canadian gov website says 0.6 liters per liter of engine per hour.

So 3.5 liters would be around 2.1 liters of fuel per hour, or a little over half a gallon.

Ed Aumiller
03-12-2013, 8:38 PM
We have a Prius and on winter mornings I start it and turn on the heater about 10 minutes before my wife leaves for work... the car will idle until engine is warm and then shut-off, when it cools off a little, it will start again, etc.. It drops our gas mileage down by 2-3 mpg...