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Larissa Cartier
03-07-2013, 5:09 PM
Hello,
I just joined Sawmill Creek and this is my first post. I want to purchase an Epilog mini 24 40 or 50 watt laser for a business i will be running from my home. It will be located in my basement in a small bedroom sized room that has been remade into a small workshop. It has a window up by the ceiling and I will be locating the machine close to if not under the window. My question is in regards to the blower. I have to make sure it's quite as I have neighbors about twenty feet away from the window as well as other family members in my home that I don't want to disturb by running the machine. I used to work in a shop running laser jobs on a larger Epilog so I have experience and know how loud the blowers can be. I'm really hoping i will be able to vent outside, because I feel the cost of an internal filtering system is out of my price range and I don't want to have to buy filters. I have been doing research and I'm hoping to find a blower that doesn't scream like a banshee. Any suggestions? Thanks in advance

Joe Hillmann
03-07-2013, 5:16 PM
Do a search on this forum for homemade charcoal filter. You can build one that allows you to vent right back into the room for under $200. Although that then means you will have the blower mounted in the same room as your laser is in and on long jobs that will get very annoying.

Right now I have one blower mounted on the roof that vents outside and one in the basement that runs through a filter and even then on long jobs the noise they make starts to get on my nerves.

Mark Sipes
03-07-2013, 5:46 PM
I use an inline blower and it is silent. The fans on my laser are louder...... of couse the noise for your neighbors will be out weighted by the smell of buring wood/plastic....

Larissa Cartier
03-07-2013, 5:51 PM
Thanks I will look into that.

Larissa Cartier
03-07-2013, 5:54 PM
Mark, thanks I will look into Inline blowers. As for the scent of burning wood and acrylic that is also a concern, and something I will be looking into.

Dan Hintz
03-07-2013, 6:49 PM
Larissa,

See my blog (the only entry I have on here at the moment)...

Tim Bateson
03-07-2013, 9:09 PM
Noise - my neighbor thought it was a dryer vent. It doesn't put out much more noise than that. As for smells, I've checked numerous times and it dissipates within a couple yards of the vent. However to be sure, the charcoal cleaners mentioned earlier couldn't hurt.

Joe Pelonio
03-07-2013, 9:18 PM
Like the others, I would not worry about noise. My fan is 8" and fairly quiet inside the shop (room over garage) but totally silent outside. Your 20' from another house could be a problem in summer when windows are open. If possible choose a wall
away from their direction and "aim" it at an angle, farther the other direction. In my case it's a good 40' and no problems with it in 6 years here. I had more problems with smell complaints when I had a leased commercial/industrial space, with the fire department out twice. I use have double hung windows and just cut a 4" hole in a piece of 1/4" acrylic to fit with the window open and screen off, used a dryer vent and sealed it with sticky foam rubber insulation.

George Carlson
03-07-2013, 9:49 PM
On eBay they sell a lot of those in-line hydroponic duct fans. They're very quiet. And they ship them in a plain brown wrapper. :-)

David Rust
03-07-2013, 10:08 PM
I use an inline blower and it is silent. The fans on my laser are louder...... of couse the noise for your neighbors will be out weighted by the smell of buring wood/plastic....

I second the concern about the smell of burning wood/plastic... especially if the neighbors are close

Ronald Erickson
03-07-2013, 10:13 PM
I have mine venting out a window. I replaced the glass storm window with a piece of plywood with a blast gate installed so I can just open the window and connect the hose when lasering and then disconnect the hose and close and lock the window when I'm done. Standing outside, it sounds exactly like a dryer.

The larger concern is making sure you are not pulling air back down the furnace or water heater flues (if applicable) in your home when the exhaust is running. I have to turn off the water heater when I'm lasering or that "make you sleepy and kill you" water heater exhaust can get pulled out of the flue.

Mike Null
03-08-2013, 4:30 AM
I've been using a quiet inline blower for 15 years. I wouldn't consider anything else.

Frank barry
03-08-2013, 6:20 AM
Hi all

Why not just put a stronger blower on the laser? Or am I missing something here

George Carlson
03-08-2013, 8:41 AM
On the larger machines, the blower is not mounted on the machine. The idea is to place the blower as close as possible to the exit vent. Any duct that is under pressure has the chance to leak fumes into the building. So you want the ductwork inside the build to be the vacuum side as much as posible. The output side of the blower should be well secured and sealed with duct sealant or tape.

Richard Rumancik
03-08-2013, 8:48 AM
Frank, what do you mean by "stronger blower"? A higher capacity blower will make more noise both inside and outside. Larissa wants to avoid both, while at the same time avoiding fume buildup inside and smell outside. It's a compromise.

I have no experience with the home-built charcoal filters but in this case I'd lean towards using a filter AND exhausting outside. That would allow use of a lower CFM blower than the ideal case.

Dan Hintz
03-08-2013, 10:30 AM
If a Internal Filtration system is out of your price range than a Epilog Will be out of your price range......Even a used one....

I'm not sure if I agree with that... pre-made systems costs several grand. That purchase, in addition to a small Epilog, can bust someone's budget... but the filtration system is 1/3rd of the laser's overall price. That's not small potatoes.

Larissa Cartier
03-08-2013, 10:35 AM
If a Internal Filtration system is out of your price range than a Epilog Will be out of your price range......Even a used one....

Really? You don't know my financial situation, and for your information, an Epilog is not out of my price range. Thanks for your input :)

Larissa Cartier
03-08-2013, 10:39 AM
Thanks everyone for the great suggestions, I will look into all of them. :)

Dan Hintz
03-08-2013, 10:47 AM
Larissa,

You don't list where you're located, but if you're in the D.C. / Baltimore area, you're free to stop by and take a look at how my filter is set up. Others have made similar systems, so maybe one of them is close by.

Bruce Clumpner
03-08-2013, 11:44 AM
Along the lines of the noise issues, anyone come up with a baffle of sorts, just to reduce the open-pipe noise when venting directly outside? I find my 4" flex under the garage door can carry around the neighborhood quite a bit. I've been thinking of coming up with a baffle or muffler that would reduce the fan noise but not restrict the flow...

Do they make glass-packs for 4" ducts?

Mike Null
03-08-2013, 2:47 PM
If a Internal Filtration system is out of your price range than a Epilog Will be out of your price range......Even a used one....

Never assume....you know what that does.

Mark Sipes
03-08-2013, 7:34 PM
I find my 4" flex under the garage door can carry around the neighborhood quite a bit.

what are you running for a exhaust blower..... gas powered leaf blower?? any inline or squirrel cage blower should be more than enough to vent fumes unless you are pulling from inside the house 75 + feet... just ask'n.

Joe Pelonio
03-08-2013, 8:22 PM
Along the lines of the noise issues, anyone come up with a baffle of sorts, just to reduce the open-pipe noise when venting directly outside? I find my 4" flex under the garage door can carry around the neighborhood quite a bit. I've been thinking of coming up with a baffle or muffler that would reduce the fan noise but not restrict the flow...

Do they make glass-packs for 4" ducts?
Aluminum flex dryer tube? If so, that will amplify the noise as will the garage door. Go to Schedule 40 PVC pipe and use foam rubber if it touches anything on the way out.

Keith Outten
03-09-2013, 9:14 AM
4" pvc pipe and the Harbor Freight 1hp dust collector is more than adequate for the job and its an inexpensive setup. We ran our dryer vent outlet through the wall up high in the sing shop at CNU and had students walking on a path just a ten yards from the outlet, they thought it was a clothes dryer as it made very little noise. You can use a good quality flex hose if you want to lower the noise even more but it isn't as safe as pvc or aluminum duct.

Forget abut laser engraving rubber though, the oder is so pungent it will run a skunk off half mile away :)
.

Dan Hintz
03-10-2013, 9:17 AM
Dan Hintz-

huh that is weird.$300 dollars worth of material from the hardware store. 1/3 the cost of my $25,000 Machine ??? A filtration unit is very simple.. If u pay over a grand for one then u are purchasing the Rolex of units... Intake/Outake/Exhaust/Filter
Its like a giant water bong. But for your laser.

Jesse, you're not reading what I wrote, and you're also cherry picking at opposite ends of the spectrum.

$300 in material (actually, $200 if you follow my blog post), and a lot of time to create your own. If you purchase ready-made, as many are not very handy with tools, then a typical unit will cost $3-4k. When you consider a typical desktop laser from ULS or Epilog costs around $8k, that filtration unit can be a significant portion of your budget. I was lucky enough in that I understood what was required and was handy enough to accomplish it... someone who just wants to get up and running with minimal fuss will need to throw more money at the problem. The OP may be in either camp, but you continue to assume they're in the same camp as you or me.

Richard Rumancik
03-10-2013, 12:08 PM
Jesse, I don't know what you are visualizing when you talk about a commercial filter for $300. Can you please show a link for a commerical filter from Epilog? We are discussing a device that purifies the exhaust air adequately to exhaust back into the room, not just a blower with a screen on it.

Here is an example of some mid-range equipment that is commercially available . . .

http://www.engraversnetwork.com/purex/purex_specs_200i_400i.pdf


I believe that Purex has an LX series that is designed for lasers but am not sure of the exact difference - it might just be the filters used. Some users use the next model up which gets you into the $6-8,000 price range. It depends on what you are cutting, the flow rate required, and how safe you want to be.

You will not buy something like this for $300. (One filter alone costs more than $300.)

The home-built unit may be suitable for some users but I'd still be inclined to exhaust outside as there can be harmful gases that you can't smell.

Richard Rumancik
03-10-2013, 3:48 PM
. . . Since a filtration unit weather its indoor or vented outside is reasonably cheap compared to the cost of a laser. Epilog will even set u up with something for under $300 ....

Jesse, I don't know what the jpeg you posted is intended to represent, but I wanted to see what the $300 Epilog filter solution looks like. Can you link to that? Somehow I think that you are visualizing something different than a filtration system.

Since you say that you are familiar with this field and indicate that there are cheaper options, maybe you could recommend something to members that is less expensive than the Purex units - I am talking commercial units here, not home built.

Most of the laser system manufacturers will recommend that you exhaust outside. Customers that have to exhaust inside usually do so because they are in a building that does not permit modifications. The capital cost and ongoing maintenance of a commercial filtration system is significant.

And there seems to be no similarity between a filtration system for a laser and a water bong as you suggested (had to check Wikipedia on the construction of that, as it is out of my field of expertise.)

On one hand you seemed to criticize a member as not having enough money to buy a filtration unit, and then in this recent post you ridicule people who do have the funds to buy a commercial unit. I am quite confused as to your point of view on this.

Ross Moshinsky
03-10-2013, 11:15 PM
I believe in exhaust overkill as I believe it is key in reducing the chance of laser fire. With an inline unit you're probably looking at 200cfm and with a dust collector you're looking at 600cfm+. Both will remove exhaust and fumes, but the inline blower will not help prevent fire. I also realize that not everyone wants to deal with the noise a dust collector makes so inline blowers absolutely have their place.

If I were running my laser out of my house I'd probably vent outside with no scrubber. I'd find the quietest but highest flowing exhaust fan possible under $200. If I felt the smell was an issue, I'd look into adding a scrubber after.

Dan Hintz
03-11-2013, 8:06 AM
What in the heck is that, Jesse? Tough to tell size, but it looks like 1" tubing? No way you're getting any significant airflow through that thing.

On that note, water doesn't filter any gases (at least not using any setup we could possibly afford)... that's the activated charcoal's job. And you need a good-sized bed of charcoal to get rid of the fumes at the airflow rates we're talking about... a 2" diameter cup 4" high is not big enough, and you would saturate it in a couple of days (tops) even if it was.

Also, one thing I think a number of us forget when we talk about the various filtration systems we use... for some, all they care about is pulling a strong enough vacuum to keep the chamber clear of smoke. For others, such as myself, the system is also meant to pull a decent static pressure, one strong enough to hold materials to the vector table. My 2HP PSI dust collector may be noisy (though probably not much more than my 1HP HF red beast), but it'll suck a warped board flat against the vector table in a heartbeat.

So, you have to consider the endgame... do you want to just keep smoke from contaminating the bed area, or do you also want to pull a vacuum? I built my filtration system to do both. I'm confident in its ability to remove contaminants from the airstream, as well as allowing enough flow to keep bowed materials flat. Having the ability to exhaust back into the room is huge during the winter months (and to a lesser degree, the summer months, too). I would still like to tweak the design, but it hasn't been an overriding concern yet. For <$200 (including the charcoal charge), I think my filtration system has worked as well as or better than any commercial unit, but it's not something you can whip up in a few hours... when you're in need, ordering a pre-made unit can save you a lot of money in the long run.

Richard Rumancik
03-11-2013, 11:01 AM
. . . I payed $350 for my exhaust setup...Then added a extra tube for a dual air assist. Reducing the chance of fire. and cost effective. To i have 2 air assist's... The one i attached i used very basic components. . .

There are 3 separate topics going on in this thread - basic exhaust system, filtered exhaust, and now air assist - and it gets a bit confusing when jumping from one topic to another.

The air assist is totally independent of the exhaust system used so I don't quite understand the comments above . . . are you saying that the apparatus in the photo is your plumbing for air assist? If so, can you briefly explain what it does? Some people have pretty much nothing on the air assist (after the compressor); personally I use an air cooler/desiccator (to condense water vapor) followed by a particulate filter and regulator but that's all. But Larissa's original question was exhaust/filtering options so air assist is getting off-topic.

What do you have attached to the blower that Epilog supplied? It sounds like you built something - maybe you could supply a photo of that . . .

Richard Rumancik
03-11-2013, 11:41 AM
Larissa, is your basement room anywhere near your plumbing stack (ie a washroom)? If so maybe you could run a 4" duct through the wet wall and add another roof exhaust. It would be best if you could put the blower in an adjacent area like a utility room if possible. Yes, it would cost a few hundred dollars and some construction mess but might be a possibility. Or do you have an unused/decommissioned fireplace chimney? You might be able to run a 4 or 6" duct up an unused chimney pipe.

If you can get the air to the attic in some manner, another option would be to place the blower in the attic. This has it's own issues (you must make sure to keep the temperature of the attic to reasonable levels and may need a better motor on the blower or at least some cooling air on the motor.) You will hear it outside but probably not much different than an AC unit running. I have my blower in a garage attic.

Don't be afraid to post again - we would like to help.

Joe Hillmann
03-11-2013, 12:13 PM
If you want to go cheap you could do what I did and buy a used furnace blower. I called up the local furnace guy and I think he charged me $10 for a blower. I have it mounted in kind of an attic space between two roofs that is open on the sides.

I had it running and went outside to hear how loud it was and I could clearly hear my neighbors heat pump running on the roof of there building just as loud as as my blower so noise isn't really a complaint, and even less so if you running it during the day when people are out and about rather than at nite if your neighbors have there windows open.

Although as I said earlier I would do everything possible not to have the blower in the same room as I am working in. Just the noise of the rushing air gets to be an annoyance after awhile, I sure wouldn't want to add the noise of the blower in the room as well.

In my experience an inline blower works for things that don't smoke much like glass, tile, and ceramics. But if you start getting into wood and plastics they just don't move enough air. If you don't have air assist the power of your blower can make a big difference in how often you have to clean your lens and in how much of your power gets absorbed by the smoke between your lens and the work piece.

As far as needing a filter goes. Some things like glass, tile and stone don't smell at all so no filter is needed (if you are venting outside). Wood smells like wood smoke so depending on where you live your neighbors may or may not be bothered. Leather and plastics smell pretty bad and in a residential area MAY be a problem.

The higher your exhaust is the less likely it is for people to complain about the smell because it isn't as concentrated by the time it gets down to the ground. Although the filters aren't only for smell reasons. It depends on your locations pollution laws as well as your own personal ideas of what is ok to put into the air.

Also a lot depends on your neighbors. Some people just like to complain and others won't complain even if they have a valid issue.

Mike Null
03-11-2013, 1:58 PM
I beg to differ. I engrave and cut a considerable amount of wood and acrylic--actually most of my business. My 15 year old inline blower handles everything very well. And it's quiet to boot.

Dennis Watson
05-12-2013, 7:45 PM
I gotta ask, I understand the need for the exhaust out, but if your shop is pretty air tight which I'm thinking mine is, would you not benefit from also having a fresh air in? But loose my heat and cool air in the process, unless you could pipe into the cabinet the fresh air.

Pete and Carmen Vaca
05-13-2013, 1:14 AM
I was looking at the mufflers for shopvacs, I think one could be built using big box parts from the landscaping drain section.

Dennis Watson
05-13-2013, 8:34 AM
I found this article that if your room is to tight you may have to supply a air in. Makes me wonder if people consider this when they install these exhaust blowers in their homes.
http://www.engraversjournal.com/article.php/2780/index.html

Tim Bateson
05-13-2013, 9:44 AM
I found this article that if your room is to tight you may have to supply a air in. Makes me wonder if people consider this when they install these exhaust blowers in their homes.
http://www.engraversjournal.com/article.php/2780/index.html

I will usually open a window just a tad. However, I've considered adding a vent like most modern furnaces use to draw in outside air.

Dennis Watson
05-13-2013, 10:56 AM
I will usually open a window just a tad. However, I've considered adding a vent like most modern furnaces use to draw in outside air.
Well opening a window would certainly work but out goes my heat or AC. It was mentioned that one could make a duct to feed in outside air to the laser cabinet.

Tim Bateson
05-13-2013, 11:16 AM
The idea of opening a window should pull air in to feed the blower. This doesn't eliminate the loss of heat/air, but it should lessen it. I know when the widow is open & I flip on the blower, I can feel the breeze come in, when the blower goes off the breeze subsides. This tell me the blower is pulling in outside air rather than pulling all of my conditioned inside air. Not solid science, but it works for me.

To my earlier ideal, I want to add a small vent with a damper that opens when air is being pulled in & closed when it isn't. I've added a cheap damper to the furnace fresh air vent & it works great. My house is very tight & I can see the louvers on the furnace fresh air vent open just a bit when the furnace kicks on.

Ross Moshinsky
05-13-2013, 11:21 AM
The idea of opening a window should pull air in to feed the blower. This doesn't eliminate the loss of heat/air, but it should lessen it. I know when the widow is open & I flip on the blower, I can feel the breeze come in, when the blower goes off the breeze subsides. This tell me the blower is pulling in outside air rather than pulling all of my conditioned inside air. Not solid science, but it works for me.

To my earlier ideal, I want to add a small vent with a damper that opens when air is being pulled in & closed when it isn't. I've added a cheap damper to the furnace fresh air vent & it works great. My house is very tight & I can see the louvers on the furnace fresh air vent open just a bit when the furnace kicks on.

It's not solid science at all. You're bringing outside air into your space without any regulation. It's going everywhere. Some into the exhaust and some into your house. There is no good reason why the air outside will rush into your exhaust while the air inside will avoid it unless you give it a reason to. That means running a duct or even sticking the blower near the window. Even then, the air will go into your room. You're just creating a pressure difference to drive the air into the blower, but if the blower isn't near the window, you're not doing really anything at all. And when I mean by the window I mean sitting in front of the window.

If I were you, I'd keep my window closed unless you want to bring the fresh air into your room.

Dan Hintz
05-14-2013, 6:06 AM
unless you could pipe into the cabinet the fresh air.

I suggest against this... you are bringing an unknown quantity into the laser's cabinet, including potentially high amounts of water vapor and/or temperature extremes the cartridge/electronics will not like.

Jerome Stanek
05-14-2013, 7:19 AM
I suggest against this... you are bringing an unknown quantity into the laser's cabinet, including potentially high amounts of water vapor and/or temperature extremes the cartridge/electronics will not like.

We do this for furnaces and what difference is it if the unit sucks air from the inside that has more contaminants then the outside air. The make up air for the room will come from out side. all you would need is a big enough duct and no fan.

Dan Hintz
05-14-2013, 1:36 PM
We do this for furnaces and what difference is it if the unit sucks air from the inside that has more contaminants then the outside air. The make up air for the room will come from out side. all you would need is a big enough duct and no fan.

The difference is you are introducing potentially harmful temperature and/or humidity swings into an electronic device. A furnace doesn't care if the air is dry or moist, and the heating element is pretty robust and does its job regardless of the environment... you can't say the same about a laser.

Jiten Patel
05-14-2013, 2:26 PM
Bruce, we have built a baffle box for the blower on our galvo. Very similar to the 1hp ones you most of the folk on here use. Very simple, made from MDF with multiple walls inside it. Each wall has some cheap acoustic foam on it. You can hear a slight air murmur from 2-3 feet away, any more than that and the leaves rustling around make more noise. We also bought a cheap hydroponic silencer (about £30 in the UK) which did wonders, but really affected the air flow as it's job is to slow down the air so it doesn't make as much noise on the out.

On the note of commercial air filters, they cost in the region of £2-5000. The one we have with my new Trotec is around £4500 again not including filters.

Jeff DeVore
06-09-2013, 12:47 PM
I felt that my 2HP dust collector exhaust was a little loud for the neighbors so I bought a 6" X 2' piece of abs pipe. I also bought a a 4" X 2.5' piece of pvc pipe and drilled a lot of 3/4" holes all over it and put it inside the 6" piece. I then filled the void between the two pipes with insulation material and lasered 2 end caps from acylic to hold everything together and glued them in with epoxy. I'll bet it reduced the noise level by 75%, Jeff.

Dennis Watson
06-25-2013, 9:49 AM
Well I got the blower hooked up yesterday and good grief. I figured I would have a problem with the room being to sealed and I was right.
I almost couldn't open the door.
Ray said when he was installing the laser that adding a pipe to feed air into the cabinet would work. But I would think it would need to feed from the front of the bed.