Do i need a smoother if i have a jack and jointer?

[Gordon Sindelar]

Forgive me if this is a dumb question, but its been nagging me. In short, assuming my jointer is properly tuned, sharpened, and adjusted, won't the surface be flat and smooth after using the jointer, thereby negating the need for a smoother?

Some more detail: been building my hand tool collection and skill set about a year now and starting to feel like I know what I'm doing. First plane purchase was LN low angle jack, which has been nice but had nothing to compare it to until recent purchases of vintage #7 Ohio jointer and #4 Union smoother from ebay. The LN is so much better than the two vintage planes. Both vintage planes are so out of tune that I am strongly considering shelving them indefinitely rather than invest anymore time and/or money. Of the two, the jointer is in better shape, but needs new iron and cap iron.

Therefore, I've been thinking about investing in an LV bevel up smoother or bevel up jointer, but not sure which would be the better purchase. Budget is limited.

I work in hardwoods and softwoods with interest in figured woods. Current project is in quarter sawn sycamore that I was unable to tame with my jack without tearout, so I would want something that could minimize tearout in difficult wood. Future projects will likely be medium sized hand made furniture.

All help is greatly appreciated in advance. -Gordon

[Jim Koepke]

Without knowing more about the #4 & #7 on your shelf, it would be difficult to advise the purchase of another plane.

The Union #4 that my dad gave me was a fine user. In some ways nicer than the Stanley/Baileys in my shop. That was mostly due to a heavier blade than what Stanley provided. It has since been given to one of my brothers who cares for most of the family heirlooms.

Here is something I wrote a few years ago about working with old planes:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?114373-Fettling-A-Plane-from-Junker-to-Jointer

There are a few other posts in the Sticky: Neanderthal wisdom/FAQs near the top of the Neanderthal Haven conference. My knowledge has increased a bit since then so I may be able to help if you have questions.

Very important is to have a solid base to hold the blade. Just as import is how the blade and chip breaker fit together.

A jointer it is usually removing a medium shaving whereas a smoother is removing a very light shaving. Seldom does my jointer leave a glass like surface. My jack planes can produce such a surface, my smoothers do it all the time.

jtk

[Trevor Walsh]

I would say yes. That those are the three main planes (plus a block) for furnituremaking. My #7 has a square edge, my jack is heavily cambered and my smooth is ever so slightly cambered. My jointer has a larger mouth and it takes large shavings (not as big as jack) which will mean tear out in a lot of cases, the square edge will leave a track or two, but the surface is flat. I do the rest of the work at this point, if it's a panel getting thicknessed from the other side etc. After all the work it gets a smooth over with a well waxed, sharp, fine set smoother. Then the surface sparkles.

One could dub the corners of their jointer, use it at a very fine cut and tighten up the mouth and get it to do the work of a smoother, it will/may take longer based on how the jointer rides the crests. A smoother will follow the surface quickly. Or with a behaved wood and thin enough part tracks aren't and issue and work is suitably smooth off the jointer.

In short, like all things in woodworking it depends on how you work and how you set your tools to do it. I don't like the idea of setting a jointer to take whispy tight shavings, that's not it's purpose. But that doesn't mean you can't DO it.

[Gordon Sindelar]

Without knowing more about the #4 & #7 on your shelf, it would be difficult to advise the purchase of another plane.

The Union #4 that my dad gave me was a fine user. In some ways nicer than the Stanley/Baileys in my shop. That was mostly due to a heavier blade than what Stanley provided. It has since been given to one of my brothers who cares for most of the family heirlooms.

Here is something I wrote a few years ago about working with old planes:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?114373-Fettling-A-Plane-from-Junker-to-Jointer

There are a few other posts in the Sticky: Neanderthal wisdom/FAQs near the top of the Neanderthal Haven conference. My knowledge has increased a bit since then so I may be able to help if you have questions.

Very important is to have a solid base to hold the blade. Just as import is how the blade and chip breaker fit together.

A jointer it is usually removing a medium shaving whereas a smoother is removing a very light shaving. Seldom does my jointer leave a glass like surface. My jack planes can produce such a surface, my smoothers do it all the time.

jtk

Jim, the first thing I notice about the union #4 is how light it is. It almost feels like a toy compared to my LN LA jack. The sole is way out of flat and there is a large gap between the edge of the chip breaker and iron, which are both quite thin. Lastly, there is a lot of slop in both the depth and lateral adjustments.

Based on your last comments, as long as the jointer is properly tuned and set to take a light shaving, then the smoother is unnecessary, no? This is the piece of the puzzle that I am not understanding.

Obviously, in a perfect world, we would all have an unlimited number of planes, all set up for specific purposes, but economic reality precludes us therefrom. I just want to make sure I am making the right moves. Right now I feel like buying the two vintage planes was definitely a step in the wrong direction.

[Dave Parkis]

It sounds to me like you were sold at least one bad plane. Please don't let that discourage you from using vintage planes. I have LN, Veritas, and vintage Stanley, Union, Sargent and Millers Falls. They all work well. I suggest having a dedicated smoother (#3, 4 or 4 1/2) as well as the jack and jointer. You can use the jointer as a smoother, but (IMHO) it means easing the corners of the iron so you don't leave tracks. You can get a very nice Stanley, all tuned up and ready to work for $50 and a second iron for the LN is gonna cost you that much. If you really want to buy new, I suggest the LV BU Smoother.

[Gary Hodgin]

Nothing to add to the above suggestions other than you might add a hand scraper or cabinet scraper for the highly figured wood or if tear out is a problem. The jointer or jack could be used as a smoothing plane if blade and mouth setup is right. The LN LA jack would be my choice. Might consider adding a second blade and reshaping the bevel. Not sure if Veritas blades and LN blades are interchangable but LV sells various bevel angles and a toothing blade for its BU jack.

[paul cottingham]

I own a stable of LV planes,and I use the LA jack the most. With a blade set up for smoothing, it works great as a smoother. Oh, and a Stanley 80 style scraper is a great addition to this setup.
Btw I believe I read that Alan Peters used a jointer for everything. Don't know if its true, but it is food for thought.

[steven c newman]

Been using either of my two #6 planes alot, lately. As for smoothers, I have both a Millers Falls #8 ( a #3 size) and a York pitched Dunlap #3. Those two seem to get the most work after the #6s. The Jack planes i have are more to level out rough lumber.

[Gordon Sindelar]

Nothing to add to the above suggestions other than you might add a hand scraper or cabinet scraper for the highly figured wood or if tear out is a problem. The jointer or jack could be used as a smoothing plane if blade and mouth setup is right. The LN LA jack would be my choice. Might consider adding a second blade and reshaping the bevel. Not sure if Veritas blades and LN blades are interchangable but LV sells various bevel angles and a toothing blade for its BU jack.

Gary, I should have mentioned that I do have the basic LV scraper/burnisher set. Problem is that the tearout was quite deep in the QS sycamore, such that the very thin shavings from the scraper would have made that job take days. I reluctantly turned to my orbital sander starting with 60 grit. That has been working well, but I would much prefer to do it unplugged.

[Joe E Harris]

From whats already been stated you can do it. But its far from ideal. Most people starting hand tools have a power back ground. So for most people i would suggest getting a smother and block plane first if you find yourself a glutton and want to dimension wood by hand too get the jack and jointer. Out of all my planes my LV smoother is the one i use the most.

Joe Harris

[Gordon Sindelar]

Btw I believe I read that Alan Peters used a jointer for everything. Don't know if its true, but it is food for thought.

Paul, this is precisely the kind of information I'm looking for. Incidentally, I recall seeing Rob Cosman using a #8 jointer to clean up dovetails on practice boards no wider than 8" and less than 12" long. The cynic in me thinks he was using it for marketing, but I like to believe there was more to it than that.

[steven c newman]

Maybe a SMALL Jointer?256353 Say, about a #6 size? Just the corners are rounded back a bit, to keep away from track marks. For some of the wood i get256354256355256356 It does take a larger plane.

[David Weaver]

Paul, this is precisely the kind of information I'm looking for. Incidentally, I recall seeing Rob Cosman using a #8 jointer to clean up dovetails on practice boards no wider than 8" and less than 12" long. The cynic in me thinks he was using it for marketing, but I like to believe there was more to it than that.

Big planes work through end grain a little more easily. I don't know what he might've been using though, most of the stuff I've seen him dovetail is soft enough that it wouldn't matter.

[Gary Hodgin]

Gordon,
If you want to avoid buying another plane (seriously doubt this but wife might convince you to avoid it) the toothing blade from LN or the higher bevel blades from LV might work, then the scraper if necessary.

I recently got into a situation where I had to use a ROS. I was building a couple of window box planters one of my daughters and got some terribly knotty western red cedar from a sawmill. Long story but I'd already paid somewhere else for it and was just picking it up. Due to a misunderstanding the mill wasn't going to be paid by the retailer but offered me four boards since that's what I'd paid for. Had to accept sight unseen. The grain direction changed often and they were full of knots. I'm pretty sure I got the lowest of the lowest grade. Didn't want to try my best planes on them because of all the knots. Tried a card scraper and a #80. Improvement but still tear out. That's when I went to the ROS. Took a while.

[paul cottingham]

I have read articles where Alan Peters definitely is using a jointer for jobs we mere mortals would use a smaller plane for. And he was a working, real woodworker. Cosman may do that, but Peters is who I would look to for inspiration.
A toothed blade in a bevel up plane would help with tricky grain, and the bevel up allows you to use high or low angle blade easily.
I am a big guy, so powering a big plane is not too hard, so YMMV.

[Gary Hodgin]

I've heard the Alan Peters #7 story as well. In fact, David Charlesworth mentions in one of his videos that Peters used a #7 for about everything. Charlesworth uses a 5.5 for smoothing. I also have a LN 5.5 with york pitch that I often use as a smoother. As I get older I've noticed I go for the lighter planes more often than a few years ago.:)

P.S. As I think about, it could have been Rob Cosman that I heard the Alan Peters story from. Not sure who it was, but I know one of them told it.

[Derek Cohen]

Recognise that a long jointer is less discriminating in the surface area it removes to smooth - it removes everything is a straight path, hills and valleys alike. Consequently, if the board is not perfectly flat, it will remove more depth than a short smoother, which can dip into the hills and valleys and smooth rather than flatten.

It is interesting that David Charlesworth actually (inadvertently?) demonstrates this in his planing DVD - where he planes an edge with his #5 1/2 until it no longer takes a shaving. In other words, the edge has created a hollow (that part was done on purpose). I bet a #3 would continue to take shavings.

It makes more sense then, if you plan to use a long plane to smooth, that the work surface is already as flat as possible. The is no reason why a long plane cannot smooth as well as a short plane if set up to act as a smoother (mild camber, correct cutting angle, etc).

Woodworkers such as Alan Peters (and probably David Charlesworth as well) worked as much with machines as with handtools. All the basic preparation was done on a machine. Since wood moves and will not stay perfectly flat for long, the smoothing process must take place quickly. Leave it until later and you make end up re-dimensioning your boards with the jointer. The short smoothers make more sense as one can avoid this situation. This was especially the case when wood was dimensioned by hand, and smoothers of 6 1/2" were the norm.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Koepke]

Jim, the first thing I notice about the union #4 is how light it is. It almost feels like a toy compared to my LN LA jack. The sole is way out of flat and there is a large gap between the edge of the chip breaker and iron, which are both quite thin. Lastly, there is a lot of slop in both the depth and lateral adjustments.

Based on your last comments, as long as the jointer is properly tuned and set to take a light shaving, then the smoother is unnecessary, no? This is the piece of the puzzle that I am not understanding.

Obviously, in a perfect world, we would all have an unlimited number of planes, all set up for specific purposes, but economic reality precludes us therefrom. I just want to make sure I am making the right moves. Right now I feel like buying the two vintage planes was definitely a step in the wrong direction.

Many of the modern planes are heavier than the planes made a century ago. An out of flat sole is a problem for a smoother. You may have a replacement blade and chip breaker. Around 1920 Union Plane Company was purchased by Stanley and the blades after that were Stanley branded blades. Many hardware stores carry inexpensive replacement blades and chip breakers. Home Depot carries a Buck Brothers labeled blade for $3 that is actually pretty good.

Union plane blades had a narrower slot than the Stanley and other maker's blades. Slop, backlash, in both the depth adjuster and the lateral adjuster is the norm on old planes. Some of mine have upwards of three turns of backlash on the depth adjuster.

I have a few jointers. Most of the time the bigger ones are set up to be able to take a thicker shaving. This involves the chip breaker and mouth setting. With a tight mouth and a chip breaker set close to the blades edge (for thin shavings) the plane is more likely to choke on a thick shaving. With the mouth open and the chip breaker back a touch for a thick shaving, it may get tear out even on a thin shaving.

What it comes down to is the set up of the blade, chip breaker and to some extent the mouth of the plane is set up different for jointer work and smoothing work. That is why having another plane is desirable.

For shorter pieces a #6 is often my plane of choice. There are two #6s in my shop. Their set up is somewhat of a compromise. They are set up for the mid range of shaving thickness. They can take thick shavings to clean off saw marks. Often it will leave tear out. After removing the saw marks the blade can be dialed back to take thin shavings and remove the tear out, at least as long as the blade is good and sharp. One is set with the chip breaker closer to the blades edge than the other.

My #8 is set up for heavy stock removal and my #7 is set for a lighter touch. With any duplicate plane sizes, mine are set up for different tasks of stock removal.

It is possible to get a great surface with the longer planes. Sometimes there is a small area that needs a much lighter hand with a freshly sharpened blade. That is where a smaller plane comes in handy.

For final smoothing in tricky areas, almost no pressure is applied with a smoother. The weight of the plane pushed across the surface will take a very light shaving leaving no tear out in most cases.

Like so many things in life and woodworking there are many ways to get the job done.

Some people love their bevel up planes and others like bevel down. With so many different kinds of wood, working styles and projects we all build, we are fortunate that we have so many choices.

With my experience of using planes getting better over the years, a lot less sand paper gets used in my shop.

jtk

[Gordon Sindelar]

Jim, great advice. Thank you much for that, just the kind of insight I was originally looking for.

[bob blakeborough]

The three dimensioning planes I use most are all LV planes... LA Jointer, LA Jack and BU Smoother. If I was into BD planes it would probably be the same sort of setup. No. 7 or 8 Jointer, No.5 or 6 Foreplane, and a No.4 or 4.5 Smoother. I don't think you will ever regret have three good quality, solid tools in these three size ranges, whether they are new or good vintage. After that you can decide if you want to add more specialty planes as jobs dictate...

[steven c newman]

A Vintage #8c256384 VS a Vintage #6c256385 Both hail from the land of Bailey. The Jacks i have256386 are for doing rough-to- smooth work. As for a "real" smoother256387I have a couple. This one is a Millers Falls #8. There are a couple #4s in the shop, but I tend to reach for the threes first. There is also a "new kid" in the shop. also a #3 size, but it has a York Pitch Frog. 256389and it seems to actually like difficult grain. like knots, and such. Oh, and a couple old block planes as well. One of which is a type 2 #18256390 and it even likes end grain....

[Jeff Duncan]

I'll just throw out my take on it. The planes you need are the planes "YOU" need. Doesn't matter what everybody else is using, if you buy a LN #4 and then don't use it....well what's the point? Buy what you need to do the type of work you do. I don't do much with highly figured woods so I'll let the others speak to that. But most of my work is in domestic hardwoods and I find the #4 is a great all purpose size, especially for small projects. I have several 4's including Record, Stanley, and even a Craftsman Handyman, all of which I tuned up and can take very nice shavings off of hard maple. So if your Union isn't working then you have to look at tuning it up a bit. That said the LN planes are beautiful tools, I have several of the smaller specialty planes and a block plane which are a joy to use.

Now as for choosing the ROS over the cabinet scraper.....that seems odd? Are you getting shavings with your scraper? If so it should be removing more material faster than a ROS. If your getting a lot of dust then your scraper needs some attention.

good luck,
JeffD

[Michael Ray Smith]

Therefore, I've been thinking about investing in an LV bevel up smoother or bevel up jointer, but not sure which would be the better purchase. Budget is limited.

As others have pointed out, it depends on what you're doing. The classic advice is that if you can have only one plane, make it a jack plane. I'd make it a bevel-up because you can get a bit more versatility with blades honed at different angles. What if you can have only two planes? I don't know if many people would agree with me, but for the work that I do, I'd pick a jointer and the LV low-angle block plane with all the accessories. If you use the add-on tote and knob with the low-angle block plane, you have what is basically a small smoothing plane. If you use a higher angle on the blade, it performs really, really well for that purpose. At least in my non-expert opinion.

[lowell holmes]

There's no substance in this reply.

I personally would not want to be without both planes. I have a herd of planes. I could do without some of them, but I don't want to.

In a lighter vein, remember that the woodworker that has the most tools when he passes is the winner.:)

[Michael Ray Smith]

Sorry to disappoint you. I guess I'm destined to lose the race because I have no extra room to store tools I don't use and no extra cash to keep tied up in them. But to each his own.

[Roy Lindberry]

Forgive me if this is a dumb question, but its been nagging me. In short, assuming my jointer is properly tuned, sharpened, and adjusted, won't the surface be flat and smooth after using the jointer, thereby negating the need for a smoother?

Some more detail: been building my hand tool collection and skill set about a year now and starting to feel like I know what I'm doing. First plane purchase was LN low angle jack, which has been nice but had nothing to compare it to until recent purchases of vintage #7 Ohio jointer and #4 Union smoother from ebay. The LN is so much better than the two vintage planes. Both vintage planes are so out of tune that I am strongly considering shelving them indefinitely rather than invest anymore time and/or money. Of the two, the jointer is in better shape, but needs new iron and cap iron.

Therefore, I've been thinking about investing in an LV bevel up smoother or bevel up jointer, but not sure which would be the better purchase. Budget is limited.

I work in hardwoods and softwoods with interest in figured woods. Current project is in quarter sawn sycamore that I was unable to tame with my jack without tearout, so I would want something that could minimize tearout in difficult wood. Future projects will likely be medium sized hand made furniture.

All help is greatly appreciated in advance. -Gordon

A dedicated smoother is great to have, but if you can get your jointer working you should be ok. Rather than try to use the jointer as a smoother, though, invest in a second (or perhaps third) blade for the LN low angle jack. Using the LN 62 has many advantages, if you can't get a dedicated smoother.

1. The sole is smaller than the jointer, which will allow you to be a tad more specific in the areas you want to clean up than a jointer will.

2. You can hone micro bevels on the bevel up blades to help you tame the tearout.

3. The 62 has an adjustable mouth, so you can set it for a very fine shaving or a very coarse shaving very easily, depending on your usage.

4. A spare iron will allow you to keep one with a heavier camber to use as a foreplane and one with a slighter camber for a smoother. In addition, since you have struggles with tearout, LN makes a toothing iron for the 62 which would make it even more versatile.

Personally, I'd rather have a foreplane, a jointer and a smoother. But if I'd rather have the 62 double as a smoother than a jointer.

[steven c newman]

Some of my "investments"256805Mainly my #s, the #4s, and a couple #5s. Also have a 5A, and a pair of #6s. There is even a York pitch smooth plane in the group. Seems to work for the tables i make...

[Kees Heiden]

A pretty standard set of benchplanes is a jack, a jointer and a smoother. A jack for removing lots of wood in a hurry, a jointer to make things flat and a smoother to make things nice and smooth. Add a rabetting and a grooving plane and you are all set to make lots of things.

Of course you can press a jointer into smoothing tasks, but it is very akward on small pieces. And when you have flattened a panel with the jointer, did all the other joinery, which takes a few days, and then come back to clean up the surface from all the little nicks and markings, you will find it has cupped a bit and you have to reflatten it all over again. There is a reason why smoothers were invented.