What length chisel for dovetailing?

[linke combs]

I am in the market for chisels and have probably read way too much online already, but one thing I have not read a lot about is chisel length. It seems like shorter would be better for chopping and paring dovetail joints...is this true? What is a good length to use? I am drawn to the shorter Ashley Iles butt chisels that are in the 7.5 inch range but still wonder about the LN's that are around 9 inches in long. It seems that shorter would be better for control while chopping out waste.

Thoughts? Recommendations? All are appreciated.

Thanks in advance,

lcombs

[Don Dorn]

I'm sure you will get as many answers as people who respond. I'll go first - Having used Marples, Narex and Crown Butt chisels in the past (yes, I have too many sets), I tend to return to my first set which is a sparse set of Japenese Chisels. They are not very expensive, but they hold an edge extremely well and they have been the perfect size, length and balance for that task. Another thing that I cannot explain is that when using a mallet for chopping, they seem to drive into the wood like a rail road spike.

[Chris Griggs]

I really like the size and balance of the LNs, the vintage 750s, japanese chisels, and the veritas chisels. I had a set of AI butt chisels that I thought would be nicely balanced for chopping, but they were a pain when it came time to switch back and forth between chopping and paring like on HBDTs. Nice chisels but I don't recommend them as a go to bench chisel. Having a decent length is nice, and ease of balance when chopping has more to do with the chisels balance then the actual length. If the weight is distributed like on a the chisel types I mentioned balancing for chopping is extra easy. Actaully even though they are longer I think the LN, LVs,vintage 750s, and couple japanese chisel I used were all as nice or nicer balanced for chopping then the AI butt chisels (as always YMMV)

[Jonathan McCullough]

I like the Ashley Iles butt chisels for dovetails. They're short so your mallet isn't 12" away from the work, and the lands on the sides are thin so you can reach into the corners. Their half-round dovetail chisels are also nice but more for paring horizontally.

[Curt Putnam]

What length chisel for dovetailing?

Long enough to get through the wood and have room for your fingers.:D It's very much a matter of personal preference. If the chisel does not feel good in your hands then you will shortly be buying a new chisel - again. Handle them if you can. If you can't, buy from a vendor who will let you return them - Lee Valley and Tools for Working Wood quickly come to mind. Don't know what the LN return policy is.

[Sam Stephens]

i don't like the short chisels, but then I tend to hold the chisel edge rather than the handle when I'm chopping out waste (DT, mortise, etc) whereas paring I like some length.

[Zach Dillinger]

I hold the chisel like I hold a pencil... right at the business end,,, when dovetailing. Therefore length is less important than balance.

[Trevor Walsh]

I agree with the AI butt chisels, I've used the half round, they are nice. But the particular way I cut DTs doesn't benefit from having that clearance. the AI butts are finely ground. I use a 1/2" and a 1/4" in the butt pattern along with a 3/4"-1" Buck and a 3/8" AI Mk2 for all the dovetail needs. Sometimes a Witherby 1/4" socket with leather washer cap handle if I'm palm smacking.

The LN's are finely balanced and sprightly in the smaller sizes, but above the 1/4" I find them clumsy and heavy.

[Christopher Charles]

I hold the chisel like I hold a pencil... right at the business end,,, when dovetailing. Therefore length is less important than balance.

I use the same technique and find the AI round-backs to be nicely balance and to have a good feel. Not the best choice for all-round bench chisels though.

Good luck,
C

[daniel lane]

Don't know what the LN return policy is.

As of today (7 Mar 13),

LV:
If, for any reason, you are not completely satisfied, just return your purchase within 3 months by ground mail. You can choose to either exchange the product or receive a complete refund (including our regular shipping charges); we will also refund your return parcel post costs at the ground mail rate.

Lie-Nielsen:
Materials and workmanship are guaranteed for the life of your tool. If you are dissatisfied for any reason, return the tool within 30 days of purchase for your money back. Call for repairs or replacement parts. We are available toll-free at 1-800-327-2520 for advice if you have a problem with one of our tools.

TFWW:
If you order something and are dissatisfied with it for any reason you can return it for a refund for up to one year after your purchase.


</PublicServiceAnnouncement>

[Derek Cohen]

I am in the market for chisels and have probably read way too much online already, but one thing I have not read a lot about is chisel length. It seems like shorter would be better for chopping and paring dovetail joints...is this true? What is a good length to use? I am drawn to the shorter Ashley Iles butt chisels that are in the 7.5 inch range but still wonder about the LN's that are around 9 inches in long. It seems that shorter would be better for control while chopping out waste.

Thoughts? Recommendations? All are appreciated.

Thanks in advance,

lcombs

Hi Linke

For detail work, short chisels provide a good way to get close and be precise. Long chisels, such as parers, enable one to maintain angles better. One could use any chisel to do any work, but in the end it comes down to which chisel provides the best balance in your hand for the work you are doing. If you are focussing on dovetails, then you want to get close up, especially if the tails are skinny. Not too much margin for error. You could hold a longer blade low down, and this will work, but it will not be as balanced as a short blade.

For paring dovetails I like the Blue Spruce detail chisels. I have 1/8", 3/16" and 1/4" specially for tails. I have the same sizes in Koyamaichi dovetail chisels for use with a hammer/genno for when the wood is especially hard. All of these are quite short chisels, about 3" - 4" blades. Note that I quite happily pare dovetails with LV chisels and Stanley 750s as well, but these are more comfortable on the pins than the tails. Of course, you could happily do all the work you want with any of the chisels, but you did ask which was the ideal for a specific task.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Koepke]

Finding a chisel that feels right for a particular job is only one of the reason my rust hunts still include chisels and my accumulation of chisels continues to grow. The other half of the equation is being able to make my own handles for my chisels.


One could use any chisel to do any work, but in the end it comes down to which chisel provides the best balance in your hand for the work you are doing.


The LN's are finely balanced and sprightly in the smaller sizes, but above the 1/4" I find them clumsy and heavy.


I use the same technique and find the AI round-backs to be nicely balance and to have a good feel.


I hold the chisel like I hold a pencil... right at the business end,,, when dovetailing. Therefore length is less important than balance.

The balance and feel as perceived by the user in their method(s) of work is an important factor. Since this is a personal aspect, it is best if you can hold the chisels before purchasing. My favorite factory handle for paring chisels are those on some old Buck Brothers socket chisels. It is also the only factory handle I've attempted to duplicate in my chisel handle making efforts at the lathe.

256460

The one on the left and the one in the center are Buck Brothers chisels and handles.

This style is only copied for my Buck Brothers chisels. My other shop made chisels handles are different than this.

Another consideration in all of this is some chisel styles seem better for different uses. That is why there are so many choices when it comes to chisels.

jtk

[Charlie Stanford]

I am in the market for chisels and have probably read way too much online already, but one thing I have not read a lot about is chisel length. It seems like shorter would be better for chopping and paring dovetail joints...is this true? What is a good length to use? I am drawn to the shorter Ashley Iles butt chisels that are in the 7.5 inch range but still wonder about the LN's that are around 9 inches in long. It seems that shorter would be better for control while chopping out waste.

Thoughts? Recommendations? All are appreciated.

Thanks in advance,

lcombs

Your instinct is right, shorter chisels are better for chopping dovetails.

[Matthew Hills]

Agree with above -- balance is important.
I like the LN chisels quite well.
Koyamaichi next.

I also really like the Czeck Edge chisel I have... but looks like those aren't currently available.

Matt

[Wilbur Pan]

Your instinct is right, shorter chisels are better for chopping dovetails.

One reason why Japanese chisels work so well for this task.

[Tom McMahon]

As usual I'm odd man out. I like a longer chisel for dove tails. A longer chisel allows you to push it with your shoulder, I only use a mallet on the hardest wood.

[Charlie Stanford]

I like the Buck Bros butt chisels available new at Home Depot - every one I've bought (five of them) came with perfectly hollowed back and good steel. They say Made in USA on the package. These are the clear yellow-handled ones if somebody's looking. And they have steel caps. I strike them with a Stubai joiner's hammer and a wood mallet, 'pends on what I'm doing and what's closer to hand.

The backs polished up in less than three minutes per chisel. I have them ground low (~20*) and can't believe how well they hold up in Oak, Ash, Maple, etc. I used the Jacob Butler/Steve Branam/Paul Sellers freehand convex bevel thingy - leaves more meat behind the edge it seems. These were to be relegated to my 'to-go' bucket. I use them all the time now.

They are available in sets of four and in open stock which I like. They're good chisels and super affordable - very reminiscent of Marples Blue Chips before the Irwin debacle.

I'm going to buy a few extras and throw them in a drawer.

[Zach Dillinger]

I like the Buck Bros butt chisels available new at Home Depot - every one I've bought (five of them) came with perfectly hollowed back and good steel. They say Made in USA on the package. These are the clear yellow-handled ones if somebody's looking.

The backs polished up in less than three minutes per chisel. I have them ground low (~20*) and can't believe how well they hold up in Oak, Ash, Maple, etc. I used the Jacob Butler/Steve Branam/Paul Sellers freehand convex bevel thingy - leaves more meat behind the edge it seems. These were to be relegated to my 'to-go' bucket. I use them all the time now.

They are available in sets of four and in open stock which I like. They're good chisels and super affordable - very reminiscent of Marples Blue Chips before the Irwin debacle.

That is interesting. I know the Buck Brothers replacement plane blades get pretty good reviews as well. Guess they figured something out over there!

[Chris Griggs]

I like the Buck Bros butt chisels available new at Home Depot - every one I've bought (five of them) came with perfectly hollowed back and good steel.

That is interesting. I wish all western chisesl would come hollow/concave like that. I know that AIs deliberately grind the bevels of their chisels on the convex side so that the back of all their chisel are a bit concave. Dead flat is what sells, but its far easier to maintain a chisel edge on a tool back that is concave.

[Charlie Stanford]

That is interesting. I wish all western chisesl would come hollow/concave like that. I know that AIs deliberately grind the bevels of their chisels on the convex side so that the back of all their chisel are a bit concave. Dead flat is what sells, but its far easier to maintain a chisel edge on a tool back that is concave.

Yep, I was shocked. Every chisel had a perfect hollow in the back and as soon at I touched chisel to stone I was polishing right at the edge. Then I bought an 1 1/4" chisel and it was dead flat at the edge with a slight hollow in the middle of the blade a weak quarter inch down from the edge and in dead center.

[David Weaver]

Not sure how they got that bias Charles. You can see them being made here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CaWvdDNe-eQ

They are fanned out part way through the video, but the segment doesn't show us the gratuitous grinding shot of the backs getting ground, just the coolant flowing on them.

I had a set of BB chisels, they were very serviceable. They were the wooden handled ones, and at the time, I didn't like the long handles, but I would like them more now having transitioned from a pencil grip to holding the handle for almost all mallet work, fine or not. Too late, though, they were already sold.

Very similar to the chrome vanadium steel that the decent pre-china marples used, but more consistent in hardness.

[Charlie Stanford]

Not sure how they got that bias Charles. You can see them being made here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CaWvdDNe-eQ

They are fanned out part way through the video, but the segment doesn't show us the gratuitous grinding shot of the backs getting ground, just the coolant flowing on them.

I had a set of BB chisels, they were very serviceable. They were the wooden handled ones, and at the time, I didn't like the long handles, but I would like them more now having transitioned from a pencil grip to holding the handle for almost all mallet work, fine or not. Too late, though, they were already sold.

Very similar to the chrome vanadium steel that the decent pre-china marples used, but more consistent in hardness.

Well, I wouldn't call it 'bias' but the use of the word 'shocked' might have been a little too strong.

All I know is that they work fine in the woods I use and the backs came with a nice little hollow, right where it's supposed to be, on each chisel. Can't ask for much more for the money.

[David Weaver]

They should be pretty flat. They're grinding the chisels after they've been hardened and tempered, and that's a good thing. (and Bias would be a good thing, too)

I recall the ones I got (though they were not those exact chisels, I can't imagine their process deviates too much - it probably only changes based on the die and the handles) being very flat, and semi soft compared to a lot of new chisels, like you could just barely file the steel with a good file. Very practical chisels.

Sort of satirically, and sort of not -if HD finds out they're any good, they'll probably discontinue them and look for something cheaper.

[Charlie Stanford]

They apparently have a 'higher end' offering and at a legitimate paring chisel length for those looking for parers and not choppers:

http://www.amazon.com/Buck-Bros-Set-Paring-Chisels/dp/B008N2UYA8/ref=pd_sim_sbs_b_3


These Bucks look a bit like Japanese chisels:

http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/show_product.do?pid=382&familyName=Firmer+Chisels

[David Weaver]

I have three of those marked as a different brand and cranked (I'm going to assume they were BB manufacture, because I don't know who else is making new chisels with that handle style in the US). They were not as flat as the bench chisels, but I doubt the straight chisels would be out of flat. The crank probably presents issues in using the regular machines.

They are also impulse hardened, and probably some sort of chrome vanadium steel. Other than being out of flat, they are good chisels. They are soft enough that any kind of stone works on them, just like the rest of buck's chisels.

These are the bench chisels I had. They were $89 for the 110 piece set for quite a while with free shipping. I sold them on ebay, and someone drove them up to $145 (I sent the winning bidder the difference back, but he still paid for my used chisels what I and everyone else at the time paid for new ones). I thought they were nice, but the handle style is bad for a pencil gripper or someone who likes the 750 style handle. I'm not a pencil gripper now, I wish I'd have kept them, but they'd still be extras.

http://www.amazon.com/Buck-Bros-Bench-Chisels-wide/dp/B008NCRKZU/ref=sr_1_8?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1363022627&sr=1-8

It is nice that they're making chrome vanadium stuff here, not because I love chrome vanadium, but because if it's done right, it's fine, and it's cheap unlike diemaking and blade steels.

[Charlie Stanford]

Yep, nothing intrinsically wrong with chromium or vanadium individually or in combination. They both figure prominently in A-2 tool steel.

[Chris Vandiver]

They apparently have a 'higher end' offering and at a legitimate paring chisel length for those looking for parers and not choppers:

http://www.amazon.com/Buck-Bros-Set-Paring-Chisels/dp/B008N2UYA8/ref=pd_sim_sbs_b_3


These Bucks look a bit like Japanese chisels:

http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/show_product.do?pid=382&familyName=Firmer+Chisels


Here they are with free shipping; http://www.craftsmanstudio.com/html_p/C!00730.htm

So cheap, I might have to try them myself.

[Chris Griggs]

Here they are with free shipping; http://www.craftsmanstudio.com/html_p/C!00730.htm

So cheap, I might have to try them myself.

They have the parers (http://www.craftsmanstudio.com/html_p/C!007PC.htm) and crank necks (http://www.craftsmanstudio.com/html_p/C!007PB.htm) there too. Very tempting!

I just stuck a 3/8", 1/2", and 1 1/4" parer in my cart just to see what it comes to(free shippingis only on orders over $75). Comes to $81.20 shipped (no I did not click check out.......yet) That's a pretty darn good price for 3 parers if they're decent steel!

I've been budgeting some money aside thinking I might put it towards some Koyamaichi parers but this is very very tempting alternative.

[David Weaver]

I've been budgeting some money aside thinking I might put it towards some Koyamaichi parers but this is very very tempting alternative.

Yeah, definitely not in the same class with each other. It'll take less time to prepare the KI, and the edge the KI takes will feel a lot more slick in the wood. Maybe some of that is having a hollow in the back.

Off and on when I make moulding planes, I try different parers cutting the bevels on the planes, because I know exactly what that feels like (as opposed to random paring, etc). The japanese chisels go through that cut slicker than anything else, even noticeably more slick than a good vintage buck chisel.

But, there aren't three decent japanese parers for $81.

[Chris Griggs]

Yeah, definitely not in the same class with each other. It'll take less time to prepare the KI, and the edge the KI takes will feel a lot more slick in the wood. Maybe some of that is having a hollow in the back.

Off and on when I make moulding planes, I try different parers cutting the bevels on the planes, because I know exactly what that feels like (as opposed to random paring, etc). The japanese chisels go through that cut slicker than anything else, even noticeably more slick than a good vintage buck chisel.

But, there aren't three decent japanese parers for $81.

Yeah, no doubt they are pretty different animals. Even though dedicated parers are generally considered "must have" tools I go back and forth about whether or not I want to spend that on parers just because I'm not sure how much I'd use them. I've gotten so accustomed to tweeking joints with joinery planes and bench chisels, I can't decide if a few dedicated parers would just kinda be nice to have from time to time or become totally indispensable (in which case I'd want the KIs). I should probably just by 1 or 2 BBs or vintage parers for real cheap see how useful I find them and then decide if I want to invest in something nicer, but on the other hand...."Buy once, buy right!"

As you now, I way over think my purchases. I don't like to buy tools unless I'm really confident they will be used regularly or if used on occasion totally indispensable (for instance, my side rabbet plane has year to prove itself as indispensable before getting the boot)....plus that same money I've set aside may be slated for carving tools instead. But that's all a story for another thread....this threads supposed to be about chisels for dovetailing and I need to get out of the habit of hijacking other peoples topics.:) I have the attention span of a cat.

[David Weaver]

Yeah, I don't think they're must have tools unless you only have butt chisels as your general bench chisels.

You want to try a few various chisels including the KI, or are you getting tired of spending $10 to send stuff back to me?

[Charlie Stanford]

I wailed on a BB 1 1/4" chisel in SYP making some new oilstone boxes and the thing was still sharp after excavating top and bottom for an 8 x 3 stone. All chisel work, no predrilled holes.

[Chris Griggs]

Yeah, I don't think they're must have tools unless you only have butt chisels as your general bench chisels.

You want to try a few various chisels including the KI, or are you getting tired of spending $10 to send stuff back to me?

Thanks, but yeah I'll pass. Its one of things I'll decide I either need or I don't. Maybe next time you send me something else anyway, I ask you to throw one in, but really I just need to make up my mind more generally about how useful a couple dedicated parers will be in my shop.

[David Weaver]

If I were in your shoes, I would go vintage if you can find your way to one other than going through one of the ripoff tool dealers on ebay.

There have to be some around there somewhere, the trick is to find them for $2-$20.

[Chris Griggs]

If I were in your shoes, I would go vintage if you can find your way to one other than going through one of the ripoff tool dealers on ebay.

There have to be some around there somewhere, the trick is to find them for $2-$20.

Well someone just PM'd and offered me a deal on a few vintage parers that I couldn't pass up so I guess I'll find out how useful they are in my shop.

[David Weaver]

That sounds like a winning conclusion.