Why really small planes can be nice in furniture work

[Chris Griggs]

I have a an LV Little Victor plane that I love, but truth be told, when I've been periodically asked why I love it I sometimes come up at a loss. While it or similarly size "model maker" or "instrument maker" plane can be used as a day-to-day trimming/chamfering tool, I tend to use a full size block, bench plane, or even, (GASP!) a sanding block. Its one of those tools that I know I love, but will often go long periods without seeing use, so I'll sometimes forget why its so useful. Yesterday, I was doing the shaping on a bracket base for a cabinet I'm working an was reminded why I love have a really small plane so much.

Because this base is all one piece (as oppose to separate moldings and feet) I had a straight stretch of wood between the shaping on either foot that required stopped cuts. Now this could be done pretty readily with a flat spoke shave, a rasp or even a sanding block, but Lil' Vic was the tool of choice for me here. Why? Quite simply with a plane is just easier to keep the straight part straight. With a rasp or a shave, if I'm not carful, I'm more likely to introduce undulations into the area that is supposed to be straight. The little bit of extra sole on a plane like this makes it easy to make consistent even straight cuts, but its still easy to get very close to the stopped areas, by skewing the plane and even by planing cross grain (2nd and 3rd pic). Once I planed to my line in the center it was just a matter of using a chisel to pare into the last bit of the stopped corners and I was left with a nice clean straight section.

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And here's the base with the shaping complete....

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Anyway, just thought I'd share one reason why I think having a really small plane is useful in furniture work. There are several on the market by LV and LN, and of course there are the old Stanley 101s as well. They won't necessarily be an every day tool, but when you need them they sure come in handy.

[Mike Cogswell]

I know just how you feel. I love my little LN Bronze Shoulder plane for some of the same reasons.

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It's pretty much always on the bench or in my pocket. It's small size gets in a lot of places and I use it as a rabbit plane all the time, especially when I'm working with hollows and rounds. The crisp shoulders of the bronze body tip right into a scribed line, making it very easy to start a rabbit. If I could only have three planes they would be this one, a low angle adjustable mouth block and a number 4 bench.

[Chris Griggs]

What's hilarious, is that I had that plane, thought I would love it because I like small planes so much, but almost never used it, so sold it and bought the LV medium instead (run on sentence). It is a sweet little plane though, and I may need to re buy it someday (would have kept it but needed the funds for the medium), but for whatever reason when it came to how I use a shoulder plane I just didn't use it much, and am much happier with my medium.

I always kind of thought an apron or model makers sized rabbet block plane would be handy for getting into weird little corners.

[Mike Cogswell]

Yeah, I've thought about a model makers plane as well.

As for the medium shoulder plane, I agree it's also a handy tool. I have one, but use it little compared to the the baby LN plane. The LN only weighs 8 oz, a fourth of the weight of either a LV or LN medium shoulder plane. And with the 1/2" width and only 5" of body it really goes in lots of places a medium shoulder plane wouldn't fit.

I have to confess, I'm a tool-aholic and have been one all my life. I have tons of tools. My Dremel tool will be 50 years old any minute now, my little wooden box, three handle Xacto set is probably at least 55. I've gone through life with the motto "every good project requires a new tool". I also have all of my father's tools plus my wife's great-grandfather's wood working tools. Counting the wood molding planes, I probably have close to 75 planes. At least 30 of them are modern high quality planes like LN and LV. And out of all those tools and planes, that little shoulder plane is my favorite. And when I'm done using it I can hit it with the Brasso and make it gleam. Life is good.

[Chris Griggs]

I absolutely thought that's how it would be for me, and while it was handy I just didn't reach for it that much. It drove me crazy that I didn't use it more. Seriously, drove me nuts because its such a lovely little plane and I had wanted it soooo badly. All I know is that in the month or so I've had the medium I've used it as much or more than used the I used infill in the year and a half I had it. I have pretty good size hands with long slender fingers and I always felt like it disappeared into my hand too much. This isn't an issue for me with little palm/block planes, but for a rabbeting plane, I found I liked something better that kept my fingers more out of the way, if that makes sense.

Anyway, I think I'm weird that I didn't love it. Its a sweet sweet little plane. Sometimes I can't believe I sold it, but as much as I loved it in theory, I just don't miss it in practice. Like I said, I'm weird, its a gem of a plane, I thought when I bought it would become a favorite, and I can definitely understand why you love it so much. I may very likely buy it again some day.

RE: Model makers planes. Something to consider. The squirrel tails are really one handed planes, great for little trimming tasks like a small block plane would be. The Lil vic is a different animal. You wouldn't think so because of its size but its best used two handed (Derek has a review that shows how). Leonard Bailey really came up with something very cool and elegant with that design. Because of how its held you end up using it in ways you wouldn't expect. It almost functions more like paring chisel and also a smooth plane where as the squirrel tails function more like little block planes... if that makes sense. Its a brilliantly simple design that I have fallen in love with. I just wish LV had come up with a better color for there Utilitas line, black never goes out of style Rob...

Anyway, if I had more extra cash, I would have kept it and would probably buy myself a whole slew of little planes, just because they are so cool. That might be the one type of tool that I would be okay having a collection of that didn't see much use. Have you held the newish little bronze LN instrument makers plane? Its tiny, and very very cool!

I got interested in little planes when John Collocia sent his set of LV detail palm planes for everyone to try about a year and a half ago. They were fun, but too small for me (they are tiny)so I grabbed a Lil Vic instead which is the perfect size. The LN instrument plane and their model makers planes are about the same size as the little vic. For me a bit small for day to day work, but the perfect size for when you need something smaller than a block plane for furniture.


EDIT: I also have to admit, while I'm not particular drawn "pretty" tools (I don't dislike them, its just not a particular draw for me either way), I sure did love the way that little infill looked on my shelf, on my bench, and in my hand. Its just really really cool looking plane. Seriously, if LN ever stops making it, I'm going to kick myself for having sold it.

[Mike Cogswell]

OK, I guess you've talked me into giving the Lil vic a try! (I'm going to have to report you to the wife for contributing to my addiction!)

I wonder if one of those instrument planes would be useful when smoothing the background when lowering it around a carving? I may have to report you twice.

[Chris Griggs]

OK, I guess you've talked me into giving the Lil vic a try! (I'm going to have to report you to the wife for contributing to my addiction!)

I wonder if one of those instrument planes would be useful when smoothing the background when lowering it around a carving? I may have to report you twice.

LOL! Well, I wasn't trying to talk you into buying any specific plane, but I think you'll like it as long as you don't mind having no blade adjustments, and if you don't its cheap. I got mine as a "cosmetic second" during one of those Cyber Monday sales so mine was REALLY REALLY cheap. One of the best $25-$30 I ever spent.

Make sure you read Dereks article (http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/The%20Veritas%20LV%20Little%20Victor%20Block%20Pla ne.html) on using the Lil' Vic... the two handed grip he recommends is really the way to do it. Its quite amazing that you can get such a good two hand hold on something so small. Its just a cool design. Feel free to order the little LN and report back too:), it sure seemed like a gem when I played with it at a show. oooooh even better, maybe we can get someone to make a Lil Vic replica in pure bronze, now that would be a bangin' plane!

[Jim Belair]

I have an original Little Victor that belonged to my grandfather (whom I never knew). I realize it's probably worth a couple of hundred bucks but I'd rather just use it and have a bit of a connection with him through it.

[Chris Griggs]

I have an original Little Victor that belonged to my grandfather (whom I never knew). I realize it's probably worth a couple of hundred bucks but I'd rather just use it and have a bit of a connection with him through it.

That's sweet! Hold onto that!

Jim Bode sells them for about $300 to $350, so I figure that a reasonable price for them is about $150 (he tends to double the prices of things). If I had a vintage one I'd probably use it too.

Then again, if it didn't have a sentimental value, and I could get $300 for it maybe I'd sell it, spend $45 on a new LV Lil Vic to use and pocket the rest of the cash or spend it on other tools ;)

[Ryan Mooney]

Make sure you read Dereks article (http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/The%20Veritas%20LV%20Little%20Victor%20Block%20Pla ne.html) on using the Lil' Vic... the two handed grip he recommends is really the way to do it.

Hadn't even considered using it as a small scraper, that's genius.. As usual gold from Derek!

I haven't actually used mine that much, I tend to reach for the medium shoulder plane instead (habit mostly I suppose) but the scraper trick is worth adding to the notebook for sure.

[Mike Cogswell]

Well, thanks to Rob running a free shipping special, I have cleaned out my LV wish list. As a result, my Little Victor arrived today. I was expecting small, not TINY! My little LN 1/2 shoulder plane seems much bigger now. I have to admit, it's everything Chris said it would be.

[Chris Griggs]

Well, thanks to Rob running a free shipping special, I have cleaned out my LV wish list. As a result, my Little Victor arrived today. I was expecting small, not TINY! My little LN 1/2 shoulder plane seems much bigger now. I have to admit, it's everything Chris said it would be.

Excellent! I love being an enabler.

Yes its tiny. If you use it the way I do you'll find you go through long periods where you wonder why you have it...then all of the sudden something will come up like my original post and you'll fall in love with it and its insanely simple yet elegant design all over again.

Did you order the the little LN instrument plane too? Its same size, and it kinda screws with your head when you see it in person since in all other aspects it looks like a typical block plane. Little planes are cool!

[Matthew N. Masail]

I had the little victor, but sold it. what buged me about it was how there is no real sound way to grab it. it's a shame because I expected to love it, but I much prefer my shop made little planes.

[Chris Griggs]

I had the little victor, but sold it. what buged me about it was how there is no real sound way to grab it. it's a shame because I expected to love it, but I much prefer my shop made little planes.

There's a pretty specific way to hold it... The way Derek shows in his review works fantastic for me.

Its a unique plane in that its tiny but its designed for a two-handed grip. I use it one-hand occasionally, but a squirrel tail would be better as a tiny one-handed trimmer.

Of course, I'm sure its not everyone's cup of tea, and I'm all for selling tools that go unused. Little wooden planes can be very comfortable. I made silly little plane that fit the blade for my Lil Vic back during "the great woody build off" (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?181681-A-Great-Woodie-Build-Off/page11) .

I don't actually use that little woody, well ever, but it is a comfy little plane. Definitely more comfortable in one hand than the Lil Vic.

Anyway, I didn't write this thread to try and convince everyone that they should buy a little victor...the task I was working on just reminded me why I like having a really small plane around and I thought it was worth sharing.

[Matthew N. Masail]

Anyway, I didn't write this thread to try and convince everyone that they should buy a little victor...the task I was working on just reminded me why I like having a really small plane around and I thought it was worth sharing.

Yeah I know. I think it's a great post. I don't have a motive for posting my thoughts, definatly not to put anyone off, quality wise it's an awesom tool, and the blade is really nice, like all Lee Valley blades. just didn't work for me, I mostly use small ones like this single handed. it went to a good home I think.

[Chris Griggs]

Yeah I know. I think it's a great post. I don't have a motive for posting my thoughts, definatly not to put anyone off, quality wise it's an awesom tool, and the blade is really nice, like all Lee Valley blades. just didn't work for me, I mostly use small ones like this single handed. it went to a good home I think.

Didn't put me off at all. I was looking back at my own posts thinking that I had gone from trying to post about small planes in general to mostly singing the specific praises little vic.

That last part of my post wasn't intended as rebutle to yours, just clarifying my own motives....more of a rhetorical statement.

Anyway, yeah. For one handed trimming an such. It is not the ideal plane to get. Squirrel tail, small block/apron plane, or small shop made woody are all nicer in one hand.

[Matthew N. Masail]

Loud and clear :) I never thought it was about the little vic. lol though you did speak a lot about it. don't forget to tuck it in tonight ;)

My post was just as yours - to clarify my own motives, or lack of them. all is good I'm sure.

I have the LV apron plane. I absolutly love it. great, great tool. took me about a week to get used to the grip, but now it's part of me. I wonder what the DX60 is like..

also, I havevn't made a woodie that has a low angle for end grain so the Apron is my only go-to tool for that. having a screw feed is also nice for end grain.

[Chris Griggs]

Loud and clear :) I never thought it was about the little vic. lol though you did speak a lot about it. don't forget to tuck it in tonight ;)

My post was just as yours - to clarify my own motives, or lack of them. all is good I'm sure.

I have the LV apron plane. I absolutly love it. great, great tool. took me about a week to get used to the grip, but now it's part of me. I wonder what the DX60 is like..

also, I havevn't made a woodie that has a low angle for end grain so the Apron is my only go-to tool for that. having a screw feed is also nice for end grain.

The apron (or ln equivalent) is on my wish list and has been for quite some time. My go to block is the original model of the LV LABP. Its pretty wide and hefty, and while I can wield it one handed fairly comfortably with my long fingers, something smaller would be nice for quick one-handed trimming tasks. I have tried the somewhat smaller LV skew block, LN rabbet block, and LN 60 1/2, and while the narrower profiles make them easier for some to handle one-handed, I find that they still lack that extension of the hand feeling of something that is in the "apron" plane or smaller and lighter category.

I'd love to try the dx60 too, but it and the other 1 3/8" wide bladed blocks (e.g. LV skew, LN 60 1/2), despite being very nice to hold/use tools, just aren't different enough from what I already have for me to get one. Jump down a size to something like the LV apron/LN 102, however, and the tool truly becomes "one" with my hand. (never used the apron but that was my experience with the 102 the few times I've tried it). I definitely know why you love your apron plane so much. I will probably get one some day, but my full size LABP is more than comfortable enough for the amount of one-handed work I do I haven't bothered yet.

To some extent I think its the lighter weight of those apron/102s/103s that make them so nice one handed. The old stanley 60 1/2s are very very comfortable one-handed tools as well despite being a "full sized" block - like the LN 60 1/2 or LV skew block, they have a nice amount of material to grip onto w/o being too wide but are a good bit lighter... even though they are a full size block, they are light and comfortable enough in one hand that if I can score a nice cheap vintage 60 1/2, I may pull the apron plane off my wish list.

For a low angle woodie...Well I've seem enough of your planes to know that you could knock out something small, bevel down, bedded at about 40 degrees in a weekend, and have yourself a very nice low angle wooden plane.

[Ron Kellison]

I'm lucky to have 3 small planes that answer my needs for fine work. When I'm dealing with relatively straight grain I'll reach for either my Little Victor or my LV apron plane. When the grain is squirrely I reach for a little 4" long high-angle Muji, also acquired from LV. It's a great little plane that's not expensive.

http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=46320&cat=1,230,41182,46334

Regards,

Ron

[Chris Griggs]

I'm lucky to have 3 small planes that answer my needs for fine work. When I'm dealing with relatively straight grain I'll reach for either my Little Victor or my LV apron plane. When the grain is squirrely I reach for a little 4" long high-angle Muji, also acquired from LV. It's a great little plane that's not expensive.

http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=46320&cat=1,230,41182,46334

Regards,

Ron

Ah yes, i always forget about those. I've heard good things about those from several people.

Actually what I really want (ahem, are you listening Rob?) is an apron plane with an adjustable mouth. I wish someone would make one of those. If I had that I doubt I'd ever pick up any other block plane again.

.....Okay, I'm lying, I'd still use my other block planes...but probably far less.

[Ron Kellison]

Ah yes, i always forget about those. I've heard good things about those from several people.

Actually what I really want (ahem, are you listening Rob?) is an apron plane with an adjustable mouth. I wish someone would make one of those. If I had that I doubt I'd ever pick up any other block plane again.

.....Okay, I'm lying, I'd still use my other block planes...but probably far less.

I suspect adding an adjustable mouth opening to the Apron plane would drive up the cost of design/engineering/manufacturing to the point that there would be much less price differentiation between the Apron plane and the LV Block plane. The current designs for each are distinctive and it makes it easy for a buyer to make a clear choice. Personally, I would like to see the Apron plane available in a candy apple metallic red but I doubt the additional 10 sales would be worth the effort! :D

[Chris Griggs]

I suspect adding an adjustable mouth opening to the Apron plane would drive up the cost of design/engineering/manufacturing to the point that there would be much less price differentiation between the Apron plane and the LV Block plane. The current designs for each are distinctive and it makes it easy for a buyer to make a clear choice. Personally, I would like to see the Apron plane available in a candy apple metallic red but I doubt the additional 10 sales would be worth the effort! :D

I suspect your are absolutely correct. Its a good thing Rob doesn't make everything I've every suggested to him and his cronies or they'd be out of business!

There was part of me that wondered after they came out with the NX and Dx60's if they would come out with a "premium" apron plane too that would have an adjustable mouth. I probably spend way too much time wondering what they'll come out with. The reason that item in particular has always stuck with me is that anytime anyone starts a "which block plane?" thread, inevitably a ton of folks reccomend the apron plane or 102, and then a ton of others say "yeah, its a great plane, but you should really get something with an adjustable mouth". Though I guess a large part of the appeal of the apron is its relatively low price, so if you took that away for an adjustable mouth people would then say "if your going to spend that get a full size block". It likely wouldn't be a high volume/high margin item...then again neither is the NX60...Rob on several occasions has said publicly if they sold too many of those they'd go broke.


Anyway, I doubt either LV or LN will ever come out with one. Unfortunately, they don't market solely to me, but that doesn't stop me from hasseling Rob every time I want something he doesn't make. I think you should shoot him an email asking for that candy apple plane. Don't worry, he'll be very gentle when he declines.:)

[Matthew N. Masail]

The apron (or ln equivalent) is on my wish list and has been for quite some time. My go to block is the original model of the LV LABP. Its pretty wide and hefty, and while I can wield it one handed fairly comfortably with my long fingers, something smaller would be nice for quick one-handed trimming tasks. I have tried the somewhat smaller LV skew block, LN rabbet block, and LN 60 1/2, and while the narrower profiles make them easier for some to handle one-handed, I find that they still lack that extension of the hand feeling of something that is in the "apron" plane or smaller and lighter category.

I'd love to try the dx60 too, but it and the other 1 3/8" wide bladed blocks (e.g. LV skew, LN 60 1/2), despite being very nice to hold/use tools, just aren't different enough from what I already have for me to get one. Jump down a size to something like the LV apron/LN 102, however, and the tool truly becomes "one" with my hand. (never used the apron but that was my experience with the 102 the few times I've tried it). I definitely know why you love your apron plane so much. I will probably get one some day, but my full size LABP is more than comfortable enough for the amount of one-handed work I do I haven't bothered yet.

To some extent I think its the lighter weight of those apron/102s/103s that make them so nice one handed. The old stanley 60 1/2s are very very comfortable one-handed tools as well despite being a "full sized" block - like the LN 60 1/2 or LV skew block, they have a nice amount of material to grip onto w/o being too wide but are a good bit lighter... even though they are a full size block, they are light and comfortable enough in one hand that if I can score a nice cheap vintage 60 1/2, I may pull the apron plane off my wish list.

For a low angle woodie...Well I've seem enough of your planes to know that you could knock out something small, bevel down, bedded at about 40 degrees in a weekend, and have yourself a very nice low angle wooden plane.

Thanks for the insentive :) I want to make one, but I'm stuck with prototyping my designs (for comfort and feel) first, too many "not keeper" planes has got to me. I don't care for tools that don't feel right to me. no matter how well they work. and my lateast krevon is exactly that. exeptional performer, but dosen't feel right. and so it will end up as scrap.


If the apron had an adjustable mouth I'd get it in a second with an extra blade to get a 50degree cutting angle. would be a perfect plane. especially for guitars. did you here that Rob? PERFECT...:rolleyes: Eventually I'll go with a DX60 or somthing.

[Mike Cogswell]

Excellent! I love being an enabler.

<snip>

Did you order the the little LN instrument plane too? Its same size, and it kinda screws with your head when you see it in person since in all other aspects it looks like a typical block plane. Little planes are cool!



Not yet. I have it on my list for possible future use. For now I'm going to see how the Vic fits in. Sadly I can't buy them all! :(

[Erik Manchester]

I won a LN Model Makers Block Plane as a door prize at a LN Hand Tool event and it is amazing where that little plane will fit. I agree that it is handy to have a small plane when you need one.