HELP choosing wood species for a "newbie" kitchen...

[Mark Kay]

Hi, first let me say, I haven't worked much with wood in many years (35? since my teens) so consider myself a self- and internet-taught newbie and had to purchase tools like a decent table saw, routers, router table, woodworking workbench, Kreg master kit, compressor, etc. I don't have a garage or basement to work in so am using one of the living rooms to set up a temporary shop. I don't have a wife or kids to tell me I CAN'T do that, (it's just me and the dog) so I moved most of the things out to make room for the tools.

I'm tackling my own kitchen, which is pretty small, but will end up stuffed to the gills with things like 2 pantries surrounding the fridge, a plate rack over a microwave over the range, many pullouts & drawers, etc, all designed around a quartz Kindred KGCRA/8 corner sink that will overlay an adjoining drawer base cabinet. I'm going with this sink because of its looks & features, plus it frees up enough counter space to give me a continuous 5ft+ of countertop in front of a large 54" wide window looking nowhere (at a vacant house just 8 feet away.)

The kitchen will be a traditional faceframe type and is about 10x11ft but the chimney protrudes about 18x18 inches at one corner, and a doorway on the adjacent wall gives me little room for much more than the gas range and a 9 or 12''w base next to it. I have different options around the chimney, one being to cover it with a diagonal cabinet that would give about 6-8 inches on each side of the chimney to store things like spices or utensils.

I started making some faceframes from hard maple as well as a 6-inch wide base cab with 5 openings like for wine bottles... you may have seen them in some cabinet sites--they cost a fortune to buy compared to standard base cabs, so I tackled it first.

I've been designing it on & off for a few years now, I keep changing things in the software plan trying to make the best use of the space, as well as see what different species may look like. Because the sink is what Kindred calls graphite, a dark charcoal color, I think the countertops would need to be similar in color, so think the wood would need to be a light or medium color so the room doesn't get too dark. The house was built in the 1920-1940's range and the woodwork looks like ash grain with orange shellac. Some of the doors look dark like mahogany but there are no doors entering the kitchen, they've been removed many years ago. I pulled up the linoleum and the hardwood floors look like ash or oak.

So what wood would some suggest for this project? The layout will be changed significantly so not sure if I need to match existing woods or not-- but do I need to stay light because the counters will be almost black? There will be very little areas of the walls exposed anymore, but the thinking right now is the backsplash will be orange or terra cotta subway tile.

I am considering a rustic look but without knots, like a mix of colors like hickory or heartwood/sapwood maple. I know hickory is pretty hard and tough on tooling, but are there other reasons for a specific hardwood's use or non-use? I run across deals on cherry, mahogany & walnut all the time too. I do have some hard maple in narrow widths and in sheets I have a 4x8 mahogany and a couple 5x5 Baltic Birch sheets; I can always use them for jigs if I go a different specie.

Considering cost, finishing headaches and work, what wood would you suggest? Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.

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[Jery Madigan]

That is the style of door I want to use - also frameless. I hate flat-sawn oak, but I am considering quatersawn.

[Ole Anderson]

I am just starting my kitchen remodel too. We chose Hickory as we have a bit of Oak overload in the rest of the house yet wanted a wood with character. Maple and Cherry is a bit monotone and Ash would look a lot like the Oak in the rest of the house. Plus Hickory is fairly inexpensive. I don't know that it is really hard on your tooling, but chip out is a problem, particularly on the router table when making rails, stiles and raised panels. Make a few extra sticks as you will loose a few to the router. I didn't want the heartache of planing all of my wood, so I had the local mill take it to final thickness. They choose to use the wide belt sander to avoid the chipout they might have encountered on the planer. I also am going frameless with 3/4" Hickory ply cabs with hot melt Hickory edge banding except shelves which will be solid edge banding. For drawers I am going with 5/8" beech, dovetailed with Blumotion tandem under mount slides. I did get some 1/2" prefinished Maple for drawer bottoms. Finishing is with 5 coats of wipeon 50/50 Pratt & Lambert #38 varnish/mineral spirits blocked after the final coat with 400 grit.

[Paul Symchych]

Any of the woods you mention could work well. Maple might be lowest on my list of preferences because of difficulty in finishing in other than a clear finish. It would be light colored though. Walnut and cherry's ultimate color could be darker than you say you want.
Hickory is cheap, machines well, finishes well and can be had in anything from a clear white like hard maple to a brownish tan. It can make attractively distinctive cabinetry.

[Jeff Duncan]

There's a LOT of stuff to consider when designing a kitchen and a lot that just comes down to personal choice. Other stuff comes down to thinking things through. For instance when I was still designing kitchens for a living I talked people out of those wine cubbies on a weekly basis. Yes they are very popular as people think they're 'cool'. Problem is in small kitchens they almost always end up being close to the stove, which happens to be the worst place to store wine. Most important thing about storing wine is to keep the temperature constant, hard to do in small kitchens and even harder if it's within several feet of a stove:rolleyes: Just my two cents though so take it FWIW.

As far as choosing a wood and finish....that's a tough call. For instance, you can absolutely go dark....if you have the lighting to pull it off. If not then lighter is a better choice. Lighter can also make a small kitchen feel bigger. Then there's the option of going for a pigmented finish instead of stain. I personally haven't done a stain grade kitchen in over 10 years. Everything custom in my area has been painted for quite some time. Best bet is to get samples of everything your considering so you can look at them and see if they work with each other. Then start making your decisions from there.

good luck,
JeffD

[Mark Kay]

That is the style of door I want to use - also frameless. I hate flat-sawn oak, but I am considering quatersawn.

Thanks Jery, they will be overlay doors, not sure how much overlay yet, I think they'd be easier on me than doing inset. They are a Shaker design with a center stile, similar to Mission, but the router bit is around 22 degree angle. I figured I can do either flat plywood panels or reverse Shaker 3/8" panels. All the stiles & rails will be 3" wide and almost everything will be based on 18" wide--the pantries, over-fridge cab, drawers, glass door cab between the sink & pantry (two 18" doors), the appliance garage... even the bi-fold door by the sink has one 18" door and one 6" door. The cabs above the garage and sink are 12" and the base and wall cab at the very left between the door opening and the range are 9".


I am just starting my kitchen remodel too. We chose Hickory as we have a bit of Oak overload in the rest of the house yet wanted a wood with character. Maple and Cherry is a bit monotone and Ash would look a lot like the Oak in the rest of the house. Plus Hickory is fairly inexpensive. I don't know that it is really hard on your tooling, but chip out is a problem, particularly on the router table when making rails, stiles and raised panels. Make a few extra sticks as you will loose a few to the router. I didn't want the heartache of planing all of my wood, so I had the local mill take it to final thickness. They choose to use the wide belt sander to avoid the chipout they might have encountered on the planer. I also am going frameless with 3/4" Hickory ply cabs with hot melt Hickory edge banding except shelves which will be solid edge banding. For drawers I am going with 5/8" beech, dovetailed with Blumotion tandem under mount slides. I did get some 1/2" prefinished Maple for drawer bottoms. Finishing is with 5 coats of wipeon 50/50 Pratt & Lambert #38 varnish/mineral spirits blocked after the final coat with 400 grit.

Thanks Ole, and I went thru all your blog posts yesterday! My local lumberyard has great prices on plywood but they don't list hickory nor any prefinished plywoods either. I have another source locally but they don't have a price sheet, only quotes, and I hate to sound bothersome always e-mailing them for prices. In the recent past they quoted me 250 for 100BF of hickory and 285 for 100BF of hard maple. I can find air dried black cherry, hard maple or hickory thru craigslist from 1.25-1.85 per BF around here and walnut 4-5 bucks. I have even bought Goncalo Alves (Tigerwood) from a distributor selling shorts for around $1 per linear foot for 1x4.


Any of the woods you mention could work well. Maple might be lowest on my list of preferences because of difficulty in finishing in other than a clear finish. It would be light colored though. Walnut and cherry's ultimate color could be darker than you say you want.
Hickory is cheap, machines well, finishes well and can be had in anything from a clear white like hard maple to a brownish tan. It can make attractively distinctive cabinetry.

Thanks Paul. I have been reading as much as I can, books and mags, many found online, and hear maple, birch and cherry can be blotchy when finishing, though there are some steps like using a conditioner first.


There's a LOT of stuff to consider when designing a kitchen and a lot that just comes down to personal choice. Other stuff comes down to thinking things through. For instance when I was still designing kitchens for a living I talked people out of those wine cubbies on a weekly basis. Yes they are very popular as people think they're 'cool'. Problem is in small kitchens they almost always end up being close to the stove, which happens to be the worst place to store wine. Most important thing about storing wine is to keep the temperature constant, hard to do in small kitchens and even harder if it's within several feet of a stove:rolleyes: Just my two cents though so take it FWIW.

As far as choosing a wood and finish....that's a tough call. For instance, you can absolutely go dark....if you have the lighting to pull it off. If not then lighter is a better choice. Lighter can also make a small kitchen feel bigger. Then there's the option of going for a pigmented finish instead of stain. I personally haven't done a stain grade kitchen in over 10 years. Everything custom in my area has been painted for quite some time. Best bet is to get samples of everything your considering so you can look at them and see if they work with each other. Then start making your decisions from there.

good luck,
JeffD

Thanks Jeff. The "wine" cabinet near the stove is sitting (standing?) on the workbench for the last few months and so far is being used to store canned stuff right now, as well as dry goods like packages of spaghetti. When in place, it probably won't be used for wine then either--me & the dog gave up drinking. But I may use it for 2-liter soda bottles, canned items, or even utensils like long spoons & ladles.

When you say everything has been painted, are you meaning solid colors or are you just referring to spraying instead of brushing or wiping? I was thinking of getting a cheaper HVLP setup if needed, I do have access to a 2hp compressor too.

Right now the kitchen only has a single dimmable overhead round fixture with 2 CFLs in it for lighting. I didn't draw up any plans for electrical revisions yet.

As for colors/species, I've tried a bunch of different combos in my program & will post more pics... the name/color is usually near the end of the pic's filename. As for how realistic they are I don't know...

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[Mark Kay]

This isn't the style door but if I go rustic, something like this coloring would be nice... is this hickory or just paint grade maple or cherry or "unselected for color" maple?

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[Jim Matthews]

The best looking home-brew kitchens I've seen are painted.

The expense and difficulty in selecting enough material to make attractive panels is daunting.
If you paint, it's easy to change the look of your kitchen at a later date.

It's also easy to touch up the finish.

My rebuild will be a false frame and panel, with plywood in poplar frames.
The "raised" portion of the panel will be applied MDF which will be cut by a local provider so I need not deal with the dust.

[Paul Symchych]

Mark: Looks like it could be hickory. Outside guess is soft maple with plenty of sapwood. I'd bet against cherry.

[Paul Symchych]

Sounding my old refrain but staining cherry is something I NEVER do. Some linseed oil, a little sunshine and a clear top coat plus some more time and the rich brown-red color maple develops cannot be duplicated by any stain. Just takes time.

[Mark Kay]

The best looking home-brew kitchens I've seen are painted.

The expense and difficulty in selecting enough material to make attractive panels is daunting.
If you paint, it's easy to change the look of your kitchen at a later date.

It's also easy to touch up the finish.

My rebuild will be a false frame and panel, with plywood in poplar frames.
The "raised" portion of the panel will be applied MDF which will be cut by a local provider so I need not deal with the dust.

Jim, thanks but my last girlfriend said she'd leave me if I chose white painted cabinets! She left anyway, probably tired of waiting for new cabs, but she'd be upset all over if she comes crawling back!

[Mark Kay]

Mark: Looks like it could be hickory. Outside guess is soft maple with plenty of sapwood. I'd bet against cherry.

Thanks Paul. I have to find where I got that pic, it may be from WalzCraft. I recall they had a few rustic doors, I think hickory, maple and cherry, but I don't see the cherry one anymore in their catalog and can't find their older catalog I had. But most of their newer rustics are knotty.


Sounding my old refrain but staining cherry is something I NEVER do. Some linseed oil, a little sunshine and a clear top coat plus some more time and the rich brown-red color maple develops cannot be duplicated by any stain. Just takes time.

The biggest concern I had about cherry is the cabinets near the window, fearing they may darken more than the rest, even taking shadows. But I agree on clear coats on cherry... but what if the boards aren't 100% heartwood and contain light sapwood? What is common practice, staining the lighter areas of the board to resemble the rest, or no?

Which brings me to walnut. I have a chance to get black walnut from a 200-yr old tree that was cut and barn stored for a few years. Most are at least 14" wide by 100 inches, I think over 40 pieces. When I asked for pics, they sent me a few and they look brown (entirely, without any lighter sapwood.) I know steaming can get the sapwood darker but doubt they did that, so I wonder if they selectively took pics only of all brown wood. Or maybe the tree was that huge that a 14" width board was all dark heartwood? I will try to post a pic. Do people make rustic cabs out of varied colored walnut boards? And on boards of mixed colors, if they aren't steamed, do you stain the lighter areas dark to match the rest? These are $5/BF...

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[Jeff Duncan]

Yup, I was referring to painted cabinets. I do spray most of my work though as a lot of people like the sprayed finish. In my mind it depends on the project, some things look better hand brushed IMHO. Painted is not for everyone, but it does have it's advantages. As for staining wood I have no problem with it. I've stained cherry in all sorts of shades as well as other woods and to me it's more important to give the client what works in their situation, than what I might like for myself.

Walnut is a dark wood when steamed and a mix of dark and light when not. Whether or not you want to stain it to get it even is a personal choice. However I would not pay $5 a bd. ft. for air dried walnut. It's been a while since I've bought walnut but I don't think it would cost me that much for kiln dried and I always look at air dried as a cheap alternative:rolleyes: With 2 CFL's in the kitchen your going to want to either completely redo the lighting or stick with light colors. Even in a small kitchen with light colors you'll probably want more than 2 lights. I did 5 floods in mine plus the under counter and it's a pretty small kitchen.

good luck,
JeffD

[Mel Fulks]

Jeff ,I like painted cabinets,too. Made same comment the other day about brushing ,texture takes light better. As for air dried there are those specs....

[Paul Symchych]

"The biggest concern I had about cherry is the cabinets near the window, fearing they may darken more than the rest, even taking shadows. But I agree on clear coats on cherry... but what if the boards aren't 100% heartwood and contain light sapwood? What is common practice, staining the lighter areas of the board to resemble the rest, or no?"

Given more light the color change will be faster but in the long run I haven't seen much difference. The shadier parts catch up.

With cherry, sapwood is not considered a 'flaw' by many while others stain it to try to guess and match the ultimate color. I leave it on as is and over time it will mellow out to a honey color that is a pleasing accent to my eye. Better looking than a mismatched stain job. My own bedroom and bath cabinets all have a mix of heart and sap.
Walnut sapwood is another story. I have usually avoided sapwood although it is very hard to find select walnut without it these days.

[Kelby Van Patten]

Mark, with sapwood you have a few options: 1) Stain the whole thing a dark enough reddish brown color that you don't notice the color difference between the sapwood and heartwood (which is what most builders seem to do, and I think it looks atrocious); 2) Cut away the sapwood and use only heartwood, which will result in some waste, but probably not too bad if you pick your material carefully; 3) Use the sapwood and see it as a positive rather than as something you feel the need to hide! I personally like the color variation that sapwood provides, but you have to put a little more thought into how you use it so that it comes together in an artful way. I've never tried staining just the sapwood to match the rest; to me, that sounds like a disaster waiting to happen. It would be very difficult to get a perfect match, and even if you can get a perfect match, the unstained heartwood will quickly begin to darken, and it won't be a perfect match anymore.

[Mark Kay]

Mark, with sapwood you have a few options: 1) Stain the whole thing a dark enough reddish brown color that you don't notice the color difference between the sapwood and heartwood (which is what most builders seem to do, and I think it looks atrocious); 2) Cut away the sapwood and use only heartwood, which will result in some waste, but probably not too bad if you pick your material carefully; 3) Use the sapwood and see it as a positive rather than as something you feel the need to hide! I personally like the color variation that sapwood provides, but you have to put a little more thought into how you use it so that it comes together in an artful way. I've never tried staining just the sapwood to match the rest; to me, that sounds like a disaster waiting to happen. It would be very difficult to get a perfect match, and even if you can get a perfect match, the unstained heartwood will quickly begin to darken, and it won't be a perfect match anymore.

Kelby, thanks. I too like the contrast of sapwood to heartwood sometimes if done tastefully. As for staining or dye, I've recently read an article in American Woodworker, Issue #140 from FEB/MAR 2009, where they tried to selectively stain heart/sap cherry to match aged cherry, somewhat successfully, but with the understanding that you darken pores in the progress, something that doesn't happen naturally with aging. They used a gel topcoat on the entire board, then used Candelite gel stain over the sapwood, then a 2nd coat of Candlelite gel stain over everything. That's the first I've ever heard about Candlelite... maybe it may have UV inhibitors or something that slows or reduces the darkening with age of cherry--I don't know. I actually saved the article in condensed form from their website somehow, then found the actual issue but didn't read the whole article yet. Or maybe time catches up!

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[Mark Kay]

Yup, I was referring to painted cabinets. I do spray most of my work though as a lot of people like the sprayed finish. In my mind it depends on the project, some things look better hand brushed IMHO. Painted is not for everyone, but it does have it's advantages. As for staining wood I have no problem with it. I've stained cherry in all sorts of shades as well as other woods and to me it's more important to give the client what works in their situation, than what I might like for myself.

Walnut is a dark wood when steamed and a mix of dark and light when not. Whether or not you want to stain it to get it even is a personal choice. However I would not pay $5 a bd. ft. for air dried walnut. It's been a while since I've bought walnut but I don't think it would cost me that much for kiln dried and I always look at air dried as a cheap alternative:rolleyes: With 2 CFL's in the kitchen your going to want to either completely redo the lighting or stick with light colors. Even in a small kitchen with light colors you'll probably want more than 2 lights. I did 5 floods in mine plus the under counter and it's a pretty small kitchen.

good luck,
JeffD

Jeff, I have only asked one place for a price on 4/4 walnut and it was $4.25/BF (for KD.). I assumed the $5 walnut was because they were all at least 14" wide and they considered the width a premium. I have seen it on ebay as shorts, 15/16" x 3" x 36", for $2-$3 each, and I think $36 shipping for 30 boards. Except for the 2 pantries, that size would probably work okay... if they were straight without any twist/bow/crook/wane/warp/checking. I should probably call more places, and for plywood prices too.

[Mark Kay]

cherry heartwood/sapwood, click on pic.
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[Bill Wyko]

You may also want to look into a Festool Domino, it'll make your life so easy when it comes to making face frames. I've built a couple kitchens, my own out of Teak and another from Bubinga. While I didn't have a domino for either, I sure wish I did have one then. Here's a shot of some of mine, notice I included knots and various inclusions, I personally like the natural aspects of the wood.256145

[Joe Adams]

My advice on this project would be to get some pre-finished plywood to make the boxes. You should get some S4S lumber to make the faceframes yourself and then order the doors and drawer boxes from a millwork shop. You can finish all the hardwood components yourself so that they match. I've made scores of cabinets in my shop and learned a long time ago that it's more economical to outsource the doors & drawer boxes.

If I was doing this for my kitchen, I'd probably order the whole thing RTA (ready to assembly) and pre-finished from someone who sells Conestoga. The components are precision CNC cutout more precisely than you can do on a tablesaw or with a tracksaw. The factory applied finishes tend to be superior to those applied on a jobsite.

As for wood species - for a light finish I'd choose Hard Maple. For medium, I'd choose Cherry or Alder. For dark, I'd choose Walnut or Mahogany. For rustic, I'd choose Pecan/Hickory.

[Mark Kay]

You may also want to look into a Festool Domino, it'll make your life so easy when it comes to making face frames. I've built a couple kitchens, my own out of Teak and another from Bubinga. While I didn't have a domino for either, I sure wish I did have one then. Here's a shot of some of mine, notice I included knots and various inclusions, I personally like the natural aspects of the wood.256145

Nice work Bill! As for Festool, I simply can't afford any of their products, but you probably do get what you pay for. This job is really on a tight budget, so tight that I may have to wait months before I can get countertops after the cabs are made & installed (hopefully not years!)

[Mark Kay]

My advice on this project would be to get some pre-finished plywood to make the boxes. You should get some S4S lumber to make the faceframes yourself and then order the doors and drawer boxes from a millwork shop. You can finish all the hardwood components yourself so that they match. I've made scores of cabinets in my shop and learned a long time ago that it's more economical to outsource the doors & drawer boxes.

If I was doing this for my kitchen, I'd probably order the whole thing RTA (ready to assembly) and pre-finished from someone who sells Conestoga. The components are precision CNC cutout more precisely than you can do on a tablesaw or with a tracksaw. The factory applied finishes tend to be superior to those applied on a jobsite.

As for wood species - for a light finish I'd choose Hard Maple. For medium, I'd choose Cherry or Alder. For dark, I'd choose Walnut or Mahogany. For rustic, I'd choose Pecan/Hickory.

Thanks Joe. I only bought a few sheets of plywood so far, mostly to use for jigs and unseen (hidden, not visible) sides like for the pantries or for bottoms. One sheet was sold as "Mahogany" by my local yard, and it appears to be "finished" but the price is scaring me--I think I paid under $40 for 3/4". When I questioned the owner by e-mail, asking for an exact species name, all he could say was it was "Okoume." It's more on the pink side than brown side. It doesn't look like Lauan color. Does anybody know what this is? I also have a couple Baltic Birch 5x5's.

I did buy a bunch of hard maple to make the faceframes and have done the two pantry FF's as well as a couple of the 9" & 12" FF's so far. I thought hard maple could be stained or dyed to match just about anything, plus a lot of the faceframes will be overlayed by doors anyway.

As for farming out the doors & drawers, I considered that. But I already bought a fullsize router table, a coping sled for the rails, and two Bosch routers when they were on sale. (1617EVS & 1617EVSPK.) I also bought a Shaker bit set and many other profiles like beading & fluting & finger joint bits. Not to mention some 35mm hinge boring forstners.

For the drawer boxes, I have a dovetail jig I've been practicing on and getting it tuned in pretty well. I also bought drawer sides on ebay, 20 solid Birch drawer sides with routed bottom slots. They are drilled and doweled with a light maple finish, each are 17/32" x 4 13/16" x 23 3/16" so I can use 22" glides. They were around $2 each. I'll cut off the dowels. I was thinking of using BB plywood but this saves me a lot of work.

I originally spent months searching the 'net for RTA cabs, that's what I was going to go with, I had a spreadsheet full of styles & calculations (~$2500-$3500 depending on options), but there were always certain styles that were missing certain cabinets or accessories (some no cubbies, some no plate racks, no corner sink fronts, no 90"H pantries, some outrageous prices, especially crown mldgs & needing two pantries), or even lines that didn't have 9" wide cabinets. Conastoga was pretty complete though.

There would always be a need to make a few custom things and I don't think I'd be able to match the finish/color to RTA's. For example, besides having to buy a corner sink cabinet or a lazy suzan corner and tossing the lazy susan parts because of a sink, I would have had to use 12" wide drawer (or drawer base) between the sink & left pantry (subtract 1.5" for the plywood, another 2 inches for the glides & drawer sides, and you only have ~8.5" inside--even less w/faceframes.) By doing it custom and non-symmetrical, I can build an 18" drawer base that the sink overlaps 6" without any interference, plus the door opening to the plumbing is larger.

This is just one more reason to do it myself. Plus, at the end, I have the option to sell all the tools and still recoup a considerable amount of the cost because of buying them at the best prices. Or, with what I save, the tools were free.

[Greg Portland]

The expense and difficulty in selecting enough material to make attractive panels is daunting.This. Keep in mind that you can source high quality doors & they will come finished. The finish that's used is better than the average hobbyist could spray in his/her shop. I've done two kitchens so far: on one I bought Ikea cabinets (the good ones), cut them to fit, and sourced the doors. On the other I bought the cabinets (online custom) and installed them. Building the cabinets is only a small part of the process! Most folks have a limited window of downtime (spouse will allow a non-functioning kitchen only for so long!). Don't worry, you'll get plenty of WWing in when you install the cabinets and trim.

If this is going to be a year long build process in the garage then ignore my previous comments.

[Bill Wyko]

Thanks for the compliment. When I built my kitchen, Teak was only $10.00 bucks a board foot, now I see it as high as $40.00 a BF. If you are going to take your time, make it a learning experience, play with joinery and other aspects of woodworking that can refine your skills. I had a blast building my kitchen. I was quoted over 10k to have it done, I did it for less than $1200.00 myself. (Back in 1999)

[Ole Anderson]

Dominos are cool, but as you know, very expensive. My suggestion? Get the $100 K-4 Kreg jig for pocket screws along with the Kreg vice grip style face clamp and the Rockler pocket screw clamp. Pocket screws make a joint so strong you would swear they are welded (if you could weld wood). And being on the back side of the frame are invisible unless you stick your head in the cabinet. Don't bother adding glue.

[Ben Hatcher]

If you started the ff with maple, you should probably make it all out of maple. Trying to stain it to match another species is not as easy as it sounds. Maple also tends to get blotchy when stained. A clear finish is easiest to apply, will help lighten things up, and will look very good with the style you've selected.

[Kevin Guarnotta]

Hi Mark,

First I applaud the effort of building your own kitchen. it is a big job, and can be quite daunting. But it sounds like you are quite patient, and are taking yoru time to study it and do it right. I've got dark countertops in my kitchen (soapstone, which I really like). the sink is stainless steel, although I've done the soapstone w/white sink in my last kitchen. Both of these kitchens I went with oak doors, slightly different finish/frame style etc. But both a semi-dark oak. I've got downlights in my kitchen now, 4 of them. Plus a large pendant light over the island, and lights under the upper cabinets for the countertops. I stronly recommend looking atyour lighting situation. It is easier to deal with it before you install new cabinets than afterwards. Kitchens need lots of light.

As for staining maple - that is tough! I thoght a blond wood like that would be easy to stain, but actually Maple does not take stain well at all.
I know you didn't specifically ask for this -but I couldn't help myself, as I've done a fair bit of kitchen work over the years...sorry if I go on too long...

Corner sinks are tough, they may seem great, but functionally are a bit tough to use. I've never liked them personally. I've installed a couple for clients, they seem happy but I'm not sure. The one you picked is definitely different from ones I've installed, so maybe it will work. I think you end up with too much counter material in front of the sink, or it is awkward to use the sink. Also, it looks like you have a bit of cabinet over the sink. This will make sink work tough, it will be hard to get over the sink. Think back on all the kitchens you have been in, and ones you have liked/disliked. have you ever seen a kitchen sink with a cabinet right over it? I'd go for getting the sink in front of the window.

Also look at your dishwasher location, it looks like you are going to have to run some drain and possibly some supply lines through the drawer cabinet that is to the left of it. this will shorten all those drawers.

Best of luck...and please keep posting as you go...

oh yeah, I second the idea of a kreg jig for face frames - if that is the style you have finally decided on.

[Mark Kay]

This. Keep in mind that you can source high quality doors & they will come finished. The finish that's used is better than the average hobbyist could spray in his/her shop. I've done two kitchens so far: on one I bought Ikea cabinets (the good ones), cut them to fit, and sourced the doors. On the other I bought the cabinets (online custom) and installed them. Building the cabinets is only a small part of the process! Most folks have a limited window of downtime (spouse will allow a non-functioning kitchen only for so long!). Don't worry, you'll get plenty of WWing in when you install the cabinets and trim.

If this is going to be a year long build process in the garage then ignore my previous comments.


Greg, thanks. Maybe I looked at things backwards--I wanted to tackle the doors before the carcasses. So I bought the router table, a Bosch 1617EVSPK router I can adjust from above the table, and the first bit set I think I bought was a Shaker rail & style set. I've since bought an Infinity coping sled so I'm all in it now--no turning back on the doors.

As for a year long build, I have been making changes in software and designing everything now since around 2009! I open the plan evey few days and try some new things, maybe more drawers or pullouts, etc. Who knows? Before it's finalized, it may even incorporate fold-down or pullout dog bowls!

But I MUST say, this is all being done IN THE HOUSE--no luxury of a wide open garage or basement. Out went the dry-rotted couch that was in the "parlor", the room only used when relatives came over, or where the artificial Christmas tree was set up for 2 weeks every year. Gone too are the relatives. The only thing left from the 80's is that old console stereo, now covered with nine Rubbermaid containers stacked and full of kitchen gadgets and cordless tools. Even the new fridge couldn't wait and the doors are back on it & it's running and functioning in the parlor, not too far away from the HF workbench. Even one of the upstairs bedrooms is now full of Rubbermaids & boxes. Thr Table saw is only a portable Bosch next to the TV right now, and the router table is almost arm length away from the recliner.

I guess you can now say I live & eat this kitchen project!

[Mark Kay]

Dominos are cool, but as you know, very expensive. My suggestion? Get the $100 K-4 Kreg jig for pocket screws along with the Kreg vice grip style face clamp and the Rockler pocket screw clamp. Pocket screws make a joint so strong you would swear they are welded (if you could weld wood). And being on the back side of the frame are invisible unless you stick your head in the cabinet. Don't bother adding glue.

Thanks Ole, I bought the K3 Master Kit when it was the top kit before they changed the name to the now K4--it was $139 minus a discount coupon I had from Rockler, I don't remember if it was $20 off or 20% off. I don't remember the difference between the K3 Master and the $99 K4 but I think 1 difference is the toggle clamp handle is on the front I think... plus it had other things like the vacuum adapter & other stuff. I also bought the vise-grip type clamp that goes into the pocket hole, if that's the one you mean--it only has 1 flat pad. I also bought the Rockler one too when it was on sale last year...

[Mark Kay]

If you started the ff with maple, you should probably make it all out of maple. Trying to stain it to match another species is not as easy as it sounds. Maple also tends to get blotchy when stained. A clear finish is easiest to apply, will help lighten things up, and will look very good with the style you've selected.

Thanks Ben. I didn't want to try inset doors yet so will be doing overlay, probably 1" or 1.25" and a lot of the face frame will be covered. Also, some of the maple I used had some grayish-greenish-brown heartwood (I assume that's what it was) which I picked specifically for character--I know one of the FF's for one of the pantries was like this. Because of wanting some character, I'm not ruling out Hickory yet... maybe even some brown maple. Money may be a factor too.

[Greg Barnett]

Looks like my hickory cabinets.
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[Mark Kay]

Hi Mark,

First I applaud the effort of building your own kitchen. it is a big job, and can be quite daunting. But it sounds like you are quite patient, and are taking yoru time to study it and do it right. I've got dark countertops in my kitchen (soapstone, which I really like). the sink is stainless steel, although I've done the soapstone w/white sink in my last kitchen. Both of these kitchens I went with oak doors, slightly different finish/frame style etc. But both a semi-dark oak. I've got downlights in my kitchen now, 4 of them. Plus a large pendant light over the island, and lights under the upper cabinets for the countertops. I stronly recommend looking atyour lighting situation. It is easier to deal with it before you install new cabinets than afterwards. Kitchens need lots of light.

As for staining maple - that is tough! I thoght a blond wood like that would be easy to stain, but actually Maple does not take stain well at all.
I know you didn't specifically ask for this -but I couldn't help myself, as I've done a fair bit of kitchen work over the years...sorry if I go on too long...

Corner sinks are tough, they may seem great, but functionally are a bit tough to use. I've never liked them personally. I've installed a couple for clients, they seem happy but I'm not sure. The one you picked is definitely different from ones I've installed, so maybe it will work. I think you end up with too much counter material in front of the sink, or it is awkward to use the sink. Also, it looks like you have a bit of cabinet over the sink. This will make sink work tough, it will be hard to get over the sink. Think back on all the kitchens you have been in, and ones you have liked/disliked. have you ever seen a kitchen sink with a cabinet right over it? I'd go for getting the sink in front of the window.

Also look at your dishwasher location, it looks like you are going to have to run some drain and possibly some supply lines through the drawer cabinet that is to the left of it. this will shorten all those drawers.

Best of luck...and please keep posting as you go...

oh yeah, I second the idea of a kreg jig for face frames - if that is the style you have finally decided on.

Kevin, thanks. I've been reading as many woodworking mags that I can find or download, hundreds at least, I'm still rounding up tools & accessories and am making some jigs first if I can, I'm just stuck on what to do for a crosscut sled on a Bosch 4100... I'd like to make something big enough to do 24" wide plywood, and I'm confused about making sleds for a left tilt blade. I already added the Bosch outfeed extension and they make a left side extension too.

I will have to look at any electrical improvements but the biggest problem is there's not much room... I mean, the current light sits on those 12x12 ceiling tiles and don't know what's behind them... if any room. It's around 94 inches from floor to ceiling tiles. I am planning on adding a soffit/bridge over the window and will have 2 lights in that, plus was thinking about both under cabinet lights (not many cabinets to do this with) as well as maybe rope lighting above the cabs behind mldgs.

As for corner sinks, I have both the black granite/quartz Kindred I pictured earlier (expensive & waited forever to get it) as well as the stainless "M-shaped" or "W" or butterfly shaped corner sink. The Kindred has a large deep bowl plus a smaller shallower sink bowl, and a drainback area. The large bowl is almost twice as big as my current sink bowl. the bowls both face the edge of the counter on the Kindred, and the large bowl goes almost to the edge. My original plan was using a diagonal front on the corner base cabinet, but went to the bi-fold corner to get the sink closer to the user. It will essentially be as close to the edge as the cabinet allows, like a normal sink (2-3"?)

For the dishwasher I asked for advice on a different forum about the location and was told I had it too close to the sink when I originally had it immediately to the left, so I moved it down further. I didn't think it was too close because I intended it to be a drawer type DW, and I'd have the basket on the counter waiting to be filled--I didn't need to have room to open the door on it while standing at the sink.

I am using the Blum style levelling legs for the toe kick so my cabinets will be cut at 30.0" high plus 4.5" legs and toe kick. This way, the lines to the dishwasher will actually go UNDER the cabinet between the sink & DW, instead of behind or thru. That cabinet between I didn't decide 100% yet if it will be 3 drawers or a trashcan pullout, though I'm leaning towards drawers right now.

As for the cabinet over the sink, the short cabinet (30") is partly over the sink but more than half the sink should be clear, maybe 2/3 or 3/4...HOWEVER, instead of 18" from counter to cabinets, the cab over the sink is 24" distance to cabinet; that means the bottom of the cab would be ~5ft high, way out of the way of any interfering with dishwashing or anything.

The tricky part I have to pull off is somehow mounting the sink temporarily until I can afford countertops--the sink is a top mount so it should be able to also overlap the adjacent cabinet to the right by 6"... this allows that cab of drawers to be 18" instead of 12". By the way, the plumbing is currently near the KitchenAid mixer and left pantry, so the move to the corner is only a couple feet. And by using the corner sink it gives me 5-6ft of contiguous countertop depending on if I go with the garage or not.

I have all the new appliances except no dishwasher, so until I get one I can sit in its place for now!

No need to say sorry for going on too long--as you can see, I do it regularly. I feel it's best to be as detailed in the post so everything's understood more easily and less questions need to be asked. I hope others don't mind me being so long & detailed! Any advice is always appreciated!

[Mark Kay]

This isn't the style door but if I go rustic, something like this coloring would be nice... is this hickory or just paint grade maple or cherry or "unselected for color" maple?

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Thought this was Hickory but it turned out to be Maple!

[Glenn Vaughn]

Here is Kentucky Coffeetree - no stain.


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[Mark Kay]

Here is Kentucky Coffeetree - no stain.


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Thanks Glenn! I have never heard of that wood until last week, I think in the knowledge base at woodweb. What made you choose that? It has that Oaky-Ashy look to me... that's not native near you, is it?

[Glenn Vaughn]

I liked the price - all under $3.00 a BF. The wood was warehous stored for about 30 years and was very stable.

Not a native species but some does grow locally - a neighbor has a tree in the backyard.

I bought all the supplier could find at the time. He thinks there is some more in the warehouse but has not been able to find it yet. The wood is very hard and the grain is vey pronoumced/ The trees are prone to wind shakes but only found a few bords with them.

I have yet to replace the old cabinets and my have to use red oak if I can;t find more 4/4 and a reasonable cost. Shipping from the east coast to Colorado would be expensive.

[Mark Kay]

I think I found this on Google last week... not sure what specie it is, but it's almost the same door style! Any ideas? Color would look great with black counters too.

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[Paul Symchych]

It looks to me like cherry, with a mix of heartwood and sapwood.
Linseed plus some light brings out similar colors.

[Rick Potter]

Judging by the age, how you described the house, and your not wanting painted cabinets, if you want something fairly light I would suggest red oak, unstained. Getting the mission style look you like, in lighter color, it seems like rift sawed red oak would be a good choice.

Rick Potter

[Mark Kay]

Thanks Paul, and thanks Rick.

Rick, red oak is kind of dated in my neck of the woods, it went out with waterbeds around here. I think you are trying to match the era of the house; my street was lined with huge elm trees, by a leaf ID site I believe Slippery Elm, but most are now gone, replaced by maples by the city 30+ years ago. I sat on my porch and watched one elm about 4ft diameter taken down just a few years ago, thinking of asking for some of it but I wasn't into woodworking then. The floors are all 3/4" hardwood, maybe ash, directly over joists, unlike today with underlayment down first.

Anyway, I'm not that concerned about resto or era look and more concerned with appearance since I'm the one that has to enjoy it and look at it every day. Then there is cost... for example, if I go with, say, hickory, will it's cheaper cost be offset by more expensive plywood cost? Or if I use maple, can I get away with cheaper birch 1/4" plywood panels for the inserts? My head is spinning over all this!

[Michael Wildt]

Looks good, but I agree on the wine rack comment. I'd skip that completely. I'd also make the sink in front of the window and try to make it larger than what you've picked. I get the idea of getting as much storage as possible, but washing a roasting pan in the one you picked will be a chore.

[Mark Kay]

Thanks Michael. The wine rack base cabinet is just something to store things, not wine... it's one of the more expensive cabinets if I were to buy ready to assemble (RTA) cabinets--I've seen them no lower than about $89 and all the way up to twice that, plus many RTA lines don't offer them. I originally intended to go with RTA cabinets and spent probably a year or two searching, comparing features & prices, making a spreadsheet of prices & available cabinets for each style, making up the layout in software, etc, and I'd often find a style I liked but it was missing something that a different style offered. For example, some lines didn't have 9" wide cabs... some didn't have 90" tall pantries... some no plate racks... some no pullouts or appliance garages... many no "wine" bases that we're talking about or 6" fillers. So I decided to do things myself. I already made the wine unit. Otherwise it would have just been a 6" filler to keep the adjacent base cab 18"...

Some lines also had a horizontal wall cabinet that was 30-36" wide with 4 or 6 glide-less drawers or cubby openings, like the wine unit turned horizontally but only 12" deep. That was another expensive one, if available. I incorporated that idea to the right of the sink, then went custom & changed it to 6 horizontal openings to use as a mail center. I may change this again to hold some cups on the left third... or even a place for the knives and ditch the block.

As for the sink, a few things come into play. That pantry side is the back of the house which is a southern wall. It prevents the pipes from freezing, especially a problem if I put the sink by the window. There's also a lean-to greenhouse, albeit with no door right now, from the corner to about the fridge.

If I had a view out the big window, that would have possibly changed things, but the side of a vacant house just 8 feet away is all I can see. Also, the current water & drain lines are about where the left pantry & 4-drawer base cab are, on that south side, so the move is only a couple feet. The sink took me forever to get and isn't returnable either. The main bowl is much larger than my current sink, (about 13x13 now), and by using a corner sink, I free up one contiguous 5-6 feet of counter space.

If I get rid of anything, it may be the appliance garage, but then the KitchenAid mixer will be out all the time...

[Michael Wildt]

Sounds good Mark.

If you're looking for additional ideas and have an Ikea near by I'd suggest you pop by. You can get blum hardware there for drawers/softclose and hinges/softclose as well. Last time I checked it was cheaper than other places. I know folks say hey its particle board etc, but for ideas its a good place.

Do double check for fillers etc so you're not running into door handle issues later.

[Mark Kay]

I'll have to look at Ikea's site for ideas but I checked and there aren't any locations near me--closest is over 200mi.


Thanks again!

[Keith Christopher]

Birch too light for you ?

[Mark Kay]

No, not too light---but more expensive & less common than white hard maple here... but I actually did buy some 2x2ft birch 1/4" panels I can use between the stiles, just in case.

[Ian Steven]

I recently built my kitchen doors/drawers (with Ikea boxes and hardware) out of cherry. I was limited by the availability of 1/4" plywood in the species I wanted (cherry, walnut, sapele, fir, maple). I bought a router bit set from Infinity, and finished with a coat of Seal-a-cell followed by Enduro-var. I set the doors out in the sun for a day to get a pre-tan. I'm very pleased with the color of the cherry and the durability of the Enduro-var.
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[Mark Kay]

That looks great Ian. Is all Ikea frameless? Mine is faceframe but with more overlay than typical.
I too bought a Shaker router bit set, I think the mfr was in Quebec.
I'll have to make a note about Seal-a-cell & Enduro-var. I don't have any experience with those.

[Mark Kay]

I'm still looking for opinions & ideas! All the tools are packed away except I brought in a PANEL SAW! It's a Panel Pro I think... It's brand new, I have assembled it over a year ago because it was in a wooden crate and was supposed to rain & had no help getting the crate in the house so tore it open, brought it into the hallway in pieces and assembled it and still have not plugged it in yet. It comes with the wheels and the optional extensions for the back and bottom, didn't install them nor the tape measure yet. It's been collecting dust. They cost over $1200 plus the extensions. I got a good deal I couldn't pass up so bought it.

Still retooling--picked up a Leigh Dovetail jig kit, complete with optional bit set. Didn't use it yet. I also altered the floorplan which now includes a spot for a small in-wall A/C unit...my house in the summer reached the 90's inside! Bedroom on second floor hit 96F with door & windows/shades closed! Still in decision mode & tool gathering.. next up is clearing some room & repairing porch post/pillar & porch roof! Don't give up on me!

[Dave Sabo]

I'm still looking for opinions & ideas! All the tools are packed away except I brought in a PANEL SAW! It's a Panel Pro I think... It's brand new, I have assembled it over a year ago because it was in a wooden crate and was supposed to rain & had no help getting the crate in the house so tore it open, brought it into the hallway in pieces and assembled it and still have not plugged it in yet. It comes with the wheels and the optional extensions for the back and bottom, didn't install them nor the tape measure yet. It's been collecting dust. They cost over $1200 plus the extensions. I got a good deal I couldn't pass up so bought it.

Still retooling--picked up a Leigh Dovetail jig kit, complete with optional bit set. Didn't use it yet. I also altered the floorplan which now includes a spot for a small in-wall A/C unit...my house in the summer reached the 90's inside! Bedroom on second floor hit 96F with door & windows/shades closed! Still in decision mode & tool gathering.. next up is clearing some room & repairing porch post/pillar & porch roof! Don't give up on me!


six is years without a kitchen :eek:

[Derek Cohen]

This may help with colour: I built our kitchen 3 years ago with Hard Maple (which had some curl). This was finished with a couple of coats of blond shellac to take the edge off the whiteness, and then General Finished water-based poly, which I rubbed on by hand. The finish is spectacular.

All doors were book-matched.The splashback is a green-tinted glass, and the countertops are black granite ...

https://i.postimg.cc/gjHw66S2/kitchen.jpg
http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/KitchenComplete_html_1b7aa2cc.jpg

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/KitchenComplete_html_m4aa51066.jpg

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/KitchenComplete_html_3728fbb2.jpg


Regards from Perth

Derek